</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're right, but nowhere does the Bible have an actual example of a baby being baptized. NO WHERE!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible says to Baptize ALL nations.
Generally the word means just that, it means "ALL"

If some where excluded,such as infants, the Bible would say so. Because it does not, all, including infants are included. The burden of proof therefore lies with all of you because you say that the word "all" does not mean what it says. PROVE IT. I am simply bowing down to the word that "all" means "all" You are the ones who are saying "all" means "not all"

Baptism is a washing and renewal in the Holy Spirit. This means that Baptism creates faith or strengthen's faith. Baptism is the gospel in sacrament.
Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

Children who are not baptized do not therefore have the new nature! Our old nature is inherited from Adam and our new nature comes when we have faith. Faith comes from the gospel in word or sacrament. Babies are renewed and reborn in Baptism.

John 3:7 "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'"

1 Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

John 3:3 "In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "


The thief on the cross who did not get baptized was born again through the gospel message. Babies are born again in the Gospel sacrament of Baptism.

The babie cannot accept Jesus into his heart though. Aslo, nowhere in the Bible does it say that John the Baptist knew God in the womb. Lastly, the theif on the corss could not have repented according to you. Remember, he was not a Christian and couldn't accept Jesus into his heart then. Plus, he was never baptized, therefore, he's still going to hell. BUT WAIT! WHAT'S THIS?! Jesus, although he never baptized the theif, said that he was comming to heaven. I'm sorry but Jesus must be in hell then too. Because of his disbelief in the baptizmal ritual.

Pwn3d

Mouse

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Echo Quote:

Even in the Bible it says that those who never heard the gospel are still going to hell. Mind you, they have a lighter sentence.
I will try to find the verse and post it when I do.

Contradicting Echo quote:

God can work faith in babies hearts. John the Baptist had faith in the womb.
If we desire baptism for a child and the child dies before baptism, the child will be saved.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is not a contradiction.
You misunderstand.

Read my post last post above perhaps that will clarify it for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Babies, as it has been proven, do not even hav e a concept of who they are. So how are they supposed to know about a God and Jesus and all of that? also, show me where it says that John the Baptist had faith in his mother's womb.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">luke 1:41-45 "41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

Psalm 8:2 "From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise because of your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger."

Infants who praise and leap for joy have faith.

Note this verse also, shows that those who don't believe in infant faith (the enemy, the foe, the avenger) are silenced by it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Echo, you may be a very nice person, but sometimes you need to think about some of the stuff you're hearing. You're no better right now than the terrorists. Or the IRA. Start thinking for yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What you are trying to do is to fit God into your reasoning. God is bigger than we could ever comprehend. He knows the beggining from the end. He can understand all things, we cannot. We simply cannot fit God into a mold that fits within our reasoning capabilities. God knew before any of us was born, who would be saved and who wouldn't. God is in control of all matters of life and in all matters around the world. Those who would be saved will be saved.
You must start out in the word and take the truth there as truth. Leave the rest up to God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here's another hypothetical.

Let's say a Wiccan, for social reasons, wants their baby baptized into WELS. What would WELS do? The parent is an unbeliever, but baptism is being offered the baby. However, the baby will be brought up to worship the Goddess and not God. What happens?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your scenario is far fetched.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, let's just make it a nominal, non-saved Catholic that wants to baptize their baby into WELS to keep the family happy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We will baptize any infant by their parents desire. Even if the parent has the wrong motive, God still works through his sacrament of Baptism and creates faith in the babies heart. Wether the baby keeps that faith is between God and that baby.

The word "all" is not age or time specific and to endow it with such meaning is a stretch. "All" can be baptized and that can mean babies. OR "All" can be baptized and that can mean when they've reached an appropriate age. It's too vague of a word to reach the conclusion you are reaching with it.

Again you are obsessing over one verse or two when the overall message of the gospel in the Bible is clearly one of "Preach the gospel to all nations and baptize them." The preaching comes first. That's consistent throughout the book.

You've even quoted ad nauseum that "Faith cometh by the hearing of the word of God." You have to hear the word of God to gain faith. YOu get baptized after you've come to the faith.

You make the mistake of simply reading what the Bible says and not paying attention to what the people in the Bible actually do. People in the Bible do this:

They hear the word
They come to the faith
Then they get baptized.

That's the pattern the Bible gives us. It's not spelled out, but it is demonstrated time and time again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You once demanded of me an example of Jesus praying to know if revealed truth was true, in order to justify an LDS doctrine. That's a pretty specific demand. Yet, you don't hold yourself to the same standard, by your own standard levied against me, you shouldn't allow for infant baptism unless you could find a specific example of it in the Bible, and you can't, so you all of a sudden make your standards less rigid for yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am absolutely rigid on myself. The bible says "all" that means babies too. Like I said in my last post. The Bible says to Baptize ALL nations.
Generally the word means just that, it means "ALL"

If some where excluded,such as infants, the Bible would say so. Because it does not, all, including infants are included. The burden of proof therefore lies with all of you because you say that the word "all" does not mean what it says. PROVE IT. I am simply bowing down to the word that "all" means "all" You are the ones who are saying "all" means "not all"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If salvation is God's choice and not ours, then why does he extend his choice to some nations and not others? It doesn't make sense. If God's doing the work and we do nothing, then why hasn't everyone been converted?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He extends his "CHOICE" to ALL nations. He works through his people to accomplish his ends. So if the word is not getting to all nations, the fault lies with people and not with Him.
Christians are commanded to preach to the world.
At the same time, unbelievers are also to blame:
The Bible says Acts 17:26 "26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'"

In the History of the Bible, the gospel has already been preached to the entire world 3 times.

Creation, Noah and when Jesus came. It is always men who refuse to believe and then spread that poison to others and the others believe them! Rather than checking it out for themselves!

trustinginhim

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In every instance you have to imply, add to or make an assumption that an infant is to be included.

Joel hit the nail on the head with his comment about you holding others to a higher standard than yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have answered your post in other posts. I hope you can find them.

What denomination are you?

To reject infant baptism is to reject Christ!
Why would you reject the best gift you could ever give your child? The free gift of God's love, forgiveness and eternal life?
It is no different than having an abortion! Or letting your child play on a busy highway!

ALl of you need to rethink how you interpret The Bible! I cannot understand your blindness! Why do you keep your children from the only good thing there is????????

God has commanded us to go and make disciples of ALL nations and you refuse to do what he wants??!!

Joel

they can come to faith through hearing the gospel message OR through Baptism.

Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

What does this verse say Joel?
It says they are reborn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That means they now have faith. They have been REBORN!!!!! They have been RENEWED!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They hear the word
They come to the faith
Then they get baptized. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is not the pattern the Bible uses.

This is the pattern the Bible uses.


They hear the word
they come to faith
they baptise their WHOLE family

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">they baptise their WHOLE family</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The word "whole" is just like the word "all" and in no way can be assumed to be age or time specific. In other words it can just as easily be interpreted to mean that they baptized their "whole" family as the members thereof were able to make that decision for themselves. You need to prove that somehow in the cases you are citing, "all" and "whole" are age and time specific. In actuality, the Bible puts no time limit on when "all" should be baptized or when you should baptize your "whole" family. I guess you are saying that because it doesn't say anything it must mean immediately, when in actuality that is an assertion.

Titus 3:5 is completely and wildly taken out of context by you and you overlook that Titus, was converted as an adult through the efforts of Paul and his preaching of the word. So in reality, verse 5 here is merely assuming that the "hearing" and "coming to the faith" already occured prior to the "baptism" So the pattern remains the same.

The pattern is for each individual

1. hear the word
2. come to faith
3. be baptized


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To reject infant baptism is to reject Christ!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whoa! So it's not just me
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ALl of you need to rethink how you interpret The Bible! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whoa!

I guess everyone who disagrees with WELS is going to Hell. I don't feel so lonely anymore, it'll be nice to know I can hang with Trusting, nab, Allen and others in Hell too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the History of the Bible, the gospel has already been preached to the entire world 3 times.

Creation, Noah and when Jesus came. It is always men who refuse to believe and then spread that poison to others and the others believe them! Rather than checking it out for themselves!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is just plain crazy talk.

I agree with you at the creation, because you're talking about two people. The time of Noah? Not so sure. The time of Jesus? Unless you accept the basic premise of the Book of Mormon (that the gospel was preached by Prophets in lands that had no contact with Christ whatsoever) then this isn't true at all and in no way can be construed as such. If you reject the Book of Mormon, you can't possibly believe the Gospel was preached to the people's in the Americas, Southern Africa, and throughout Europe at the time of Christ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess everyone who disagrees with WELS is going to Hell.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No just you Joel.

But you said rejecting infant baptism is rejecting Christ.

Not "If Joel rejects infant baptism he's rejecting Christ."

You said "All of you need to rethink how you interpret the Bible."

Not "Joel needs to rethink how he interprets the Bible."

I think you're a victim of WELSian group-think.

Look I don't really have a problem if WELS says they are the only ones that are right. That's what Mormonism says. I think it actually shows backbone rather than the typical approach of disagreement all across the board, but as long as you believe in Jesus it's cool.

I guess it just looks like WELS is trying to have their cake and eat it too. In other words you want to be part of the Christian world and yet be the only ones who are right. In my opinion this is the reason most reject Mormonism as Christian, because we say all of you are wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am absolutely rigid on myself. The bible says "all" that means babies too. Like I said in my last post. The Bible says to Baptize ALL nations.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're not rigid on yourself actually, you're very lax. You see, if you apply the standard you are using with the word "all" to "Ask and ye shall recieve" then it won't matter what I ask about and I can pray to know the truth. It simply says "Ask" and that would mean I can ask God anything.

I'm not saying that's what I believe, I'm just trying to show you your double standard of biblical interpretation.

life and death and reborn and saved and every other word pertaining to salvation are all spiritual words in meaning and context. baptism is physical . it does not save the soul anymore than a bath does. you have used the phrase above "reborn" to mean physical baptism, you have used the word regeneration to mean physical baptism when in fact in titus it means renewal of the soul, from the original word paliggenesisia. from palin which means again and from ginomai which mean to become. it its recovery, renovation, restoration. clearly different than you and wels intend it to be.
our basic theological difference is you and WELS believe an act of water and dedication by someone can save a soul. i and most of mainstream evangeical christianity beleive we are not held accountable until we are accountable and then we must choose whom we will serve.
clearly we will have to agree to disagree. i think you twist scripture and you believe i do.
i still must wonder about your position on the Baptism of the HOly GHost and spiritual gifts. I would to know what YOU believe and why. this goes for Joel and anyone else who has a foundation scripturally as to why you lean one way or the other.
nab

Hey Joel, since I don't believe what she believes, I call the seat next to Nabster. He sound like an interesting guy. Hey Joel, try to get one next to me though. I've always wanted to see what what a Mormon looks like. Do you have horns? Lol, just messing.

YES THEY HAVE HORNS.....
....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.TUBA, TROMBONE,TRUMPET, SHOFAR...HEHEHE
MORMON TABERNACLE CHOIR HAS A MASSIVE HORN SECTION....
HEY YOU CAN SIT NEXT TO ME...AS LONG AS YOU DONT MIND AN OCCASIONAL BREAKING OF THE PROVERBIAL WIND VIA THE ONE CHEEK SNEAK......LOL...REALLY....I CRACK ME UP SOMETIMES WITH MY STUPID ADOLESCENT HUMOR...

yeah, i know, and yall will be coming into hell some considerable time after i have already been there, remember i am catholic and we have reserved seating, season tickets if you will.

CLUB LEVEL? COME ON.

IT IS ABOUT YOUR HEART AND JESUS, NOT YOUR DENOMINATION.

here's my $.02...

I think there has to be someone that's hungry or lonely or in need of some kindness that could benefit from the precious time being spent here. Our charge is to plant seeds, not to batter people into salvation. God is God and He has His timing, and one day every knee shall bow...

Baptism is the outward expression of an inword belief and trust in Jesus Christ.

...and Babies don't go to hell. We are only held accountable for the knowledge we are given about the gospel and Christ's salvation plan. Babies cannot reason, therefore, they are not accountable.

You know what...sometimes I think God just looks down on us and shakes His head...

PS...Joel...I never knew how Christlike you really were...