Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Posted By: Joel33

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/22/05 10:49 PM

On the Assemblies of God

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Assemblies of God are fundamentalists who believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Holy Scriptures. They confess the doctrine of the Trinity and the Deity of Christ along with his virgin birth, substitutionary work on the cross, his bodily resurrection from the dead and his exaltation to the right hand of God.
They teach that faith is a condition of salvation rather than teaching that faith is the way God has chosen for us to receive salvation. The implication is that an unconverted, sinful human being must "decide" for Christ. The Wisconsin Synod teaches that people by nature are dead in their tranbsgressions and sin and therefore have no ability to decide of Christ (Ephesians 2:1, 5). We do not choose Christ, rather he chose us (John 15:16) We believe that human beings are purely passive in conversion.

They teach that baptism and Holy Communion are ordinances whereby Christians declare to the world that they have died with Christ and share in the divine nature. They do not believe that the sacraments are means of grace through which the Holy Spirit works to create or strengthen faith. They deny the Real Presence in the Lord's Supper. They insist that the only legitimate way to perform baptism is by immersion. That is undoubtedly why the congregation in your community goes down to the lake to baptize. The Wisconsin Synod teaches that baptism and the Lord's Supper are means of grace through which the Holy Spirit works to create or strengthen faith (Titus 3:4-7, John 3:5-6, 1 Peter 3:21, Matthew 26:26-28). We believe that Christ's true body and blood are truly present in the Lord's Supper (Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 11:23-29). The Bible does not madate the mode of baptism. The water in baptism can be applied in the name of the Triune God by sprinkling, pouring, immersion or submersion.

The Assemblies of God are premillennialist. They believe that Christ will return and reign physically, visibly, and politcally for 1,000 years on earth. The Wisconsin Synod rejects the teaching that Jesus will return to establish a political reign here on earth (John 19:36, Romans 14:17, Colossians 1:13-14).

They are a perfectionist church body. According to the official web site of the Assemblies of God, they believe that "by the power of the Holy Ghost we are able to obey the command: 'Be ye holy, for I am holy.'" Holiness/perfectionist church bodies often seem to make rules where God hasn't and to call things sinful which God has not forbidden. The congregation in your community perhaps has determined that dancing is inherently sinful and therefore forbids dancing. The Wisconsin Synod teaches that although we will strive for Christian perfection, we will not attain it in this life (Romans 7:14-25, Philippians 3:12). We are careful not to call things sinful which God has not called sinful (1 Corinthians 10:23-33, Romans 14:1-23).

The Assemblies of God believe that every believer is entitled to "baptism in the Holy Spirit" (an experience separate from water baptism) with the inital evidence of speaking in tongues. They also practice faith healing. They teach that such "divine healing is an integral part of the gospel. Deliverance from sickness is provided for in the atonement, and is the privilege of all believers." The Wisconsin Synod does not teach a "baptism in the Holy Spirit" separate from and subsequent to water baptism. We do not see speaking in tongues and faith healing as normative for Christians today.<hr /></blockquote>Even other Lutherans aren't good enough for WELS <blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes, the difference between the doctrinal position and practice of the ELCA and WELS is huge. This is not something that can be covered in a short question and answer. You will need to make a study of the doctrinal position and practice of the two churches and the two congregations before you can make a spiritually responsible decision about this matter.
There is a summary of the basic differences in the book WELS and Other Lutherans and there are quite a few questions about this in the archive section of this site. Also there are on-line essays about this in the essay section of the library section of the Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary web site. WELS also has a doctrinal statement This We Believe, which is available in the Beliefs section of this web site.

Another starting point would be to talk to the pastor of the local WELS church. WELS congregations offer Bible Information Classes which explain our beliefs from Scripture. One can take these classes without making any prior commitment to the church.

The main source of the many differences between WELS and the ELCA is a great difference in the view of Scripture. WELS accepts the Scripture as the inspired, errorless Word of God, the only source of doctrine for the church. Though the ELCA speaks of the Bible as inspired, they believe that there are many errors in the Bible and that the church can use other sources along with the Bible in determining their position on such issues as sexuality, etc. Though the ELCA lists the ecumenical creeds and the Lutheran confessions as documents which they accept, their publications and teachers are not required to abide by them.

If you are committed to the Bible as the true, errorless Word of God or you are open to examining that claim on the basis of the Bible's testimony, you should undertake for yourself a point-by-point comparison of the teachings of the two church bodies with the Bible.

You are also welcome to attend a WELS church as a visitor, though you should realize that one difference between the WELS and ELCA is that the ELCA has open communion, which means any Christian can attend the Lord's Supper there, whereas WELS, on the basis of Scripture, believes that joining in the Lord's Supper is a testimony to unity of faith and should only take place when such unity has been established. This practice also is explained in the archive section of this site in the topics on the sacraments and especially the section on fellowship.

If there are some of our beliefs that do not seem to be correct to you, we hope you will take time to evaluate them carefully by comparison with Scripture.
<hr /></blockquote>Nor do they have a high opinion of "the Church of God" <blockquote>quote:<hr />The Church of God comes out of the Wesleyan/Holiness tradition. These churches teach that Christians can become "wholly sanctified" (perfectionism). This down plays the effects of original sin. They generally speak of our ability to make a decision for Christ. They would put a strong emphasis on Christian living and spiritual experience at the expense of doctrine. They have no creeds and are quite ecumenical in doctrine,though they are basically "conservative". They do not have a high view of the sacraments as true means of grace. Because each congregation is quite independent, details and emphases may vary considerably from congregation to congregation.<hr /></blockquote>On "40 days of Purpose" by Rick Warren they say the following:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The WELS has no official policy for its congregations on whether or not they can participate in Rick Warren's "40 Days of Purpose Campaign." Of course, that doesn't mean that WELS congregations would be wise to adopt Rick Warren's campaign as is without major revisions.
Here is a copy of an article about Rick Warren's book that appeared in a question and answer column in our synod's magazine, Forward in Christ.

Q: My co-worker recommended The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. Is there benefit from reading it?

A: My copy of The Purpose Driven Life proclaims: �Over Six Million Copies Sold.� Obviously many have read it and no doubt benefitted. The temptation for us as Lutherans is to ignore such books since in our justifiable fear of pietism (see explanation below) we are sometimes timid about encouraging biblical piety.

There are several important truths you can gain from Warren�s book. Much like his book The Purpose Driven Church, Warren identifies a powerful temptation. As congregations and individuals we forget what we are doing here. Our sinful nature�s lust to live by sight and not by faith shifts our focus from timeless treasure to temporary trash.

Warren reminds us that God gives every Christian an eternal purpose. That�s a powerful antidote to the aimless wandering that masquerades as life�s purpose. Our consumer culture seeks only to be entertained by the latest and fastest. Cutting through the often artificial division of �sacred� and �secular,� he reminds us that Monday at home and Tuesday at work - not just Sunday at church - present us with royal priestly opportunities for praising Christ.

However, for all his commendable zeal for sanctified living, Warren stumbles into pietism�s chief pitfall: he inadvertently shifts our focus from Jesus to ourselves.

From beginning to end God�s law (what I must do for God) predominates over God�s gospel (what Jesus has done for me). Repeatedly Warren justly confronts me with my ugly self-centeredness in the mirror of God�s law. But then, often after only a passing gospel reference (or none!), I�m given detailed directions for doing better in the future. Again and again he supplies us with list after list of actions for improved sanctified living (for example: six secrets to friendship with God, p. 87; seven steps for restoring fellowship, p. 154; five attitudes of real servants, p. 265). The lists, in themselves, are often fine, but his key to unlocking greater success in sanctified living is almost always my improved obedience for Christ - not Christ�s perfect obedience for me.

More and more as I read the book, the emphasis seemed to shift from The Purpose Driven Life to The Purpose Driven Life. The gospel was treated as knowledge already possessed and therefore safely assumed. Now my greatest need is to get serious about living obediently.

But is my chief problem in sanctification a lack of information? Isn�t it my failure to grasp the full wonder of the gospel�s transforming power? My moment by moment need for the gospel as the continuing power and strength of my sanctified life was often ignored. With �musts� and �shoulds� Warren drives me with the law rather then drawing me with the gospel.

I perceived a vast difference in emphasis between Warren�s book and Paul�s letters. Even when Paul is in the midst of his sanctification encouragements, he repeatedly explores the length and width and height and depth of Christ�s love.

Only God can work in me �to will and to act according to his God purpose� (Philippians 2:13). Warren doesn�t seem to grasp that sanctification�s most important message isn�t �this do!� but �this believe!� Believe you are perfectly forgiven at Christ�s cross for every sanctification failure! Believe Christ has already in your place fulfilled every demand of God�s law! Believe in your baptism you died with Christ and rose with him - possessing his power to live a new life!

Could you read Warren�s book with profit? Probably. Can I in good conscious recommend this for your devotional reading? Probably not.

Pietism began among 17th century Lutherans as a reaction against what many perceived as a lack of genuine Christianity within the church. Sadly, many legitimate concerns were subverted when the objective truths of justification were downplayed and sanctification became a legalistic demand of how �good� Christians must live. Pietists often refused to see any areas of adiaphora in sanctification.<hr /></blockquote>As for who they think the anti-Christ is:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Lutherans have identified this Antichrist as the succession of men who have served in the Papacy.<hr /></blockquote>So it's the pope.

About Pentacostals:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Bible does invite and encourage all Christians to express their unity in the Christian faith in various ways--including praying together--but never if one of the people (or groups) is clinging to error that is contrary to what the Bible teaches. This means that (based on the confessions of the people) even if two people recognize each other as Christians, they are not permitted to pray together if one of them is unwilling to give up the false teaching. We are not to do anything that would make light of false doctrine, compromise the full revelation of truth in Scripture, or endanger the spiritual life of someone who is tolerating error.

We in the confessional Lutheran church acknowledge that most Pentecostals are professing Christians and (as stated above) give thanks for that. But we also believe that by your formal confession of faith (the doctrinal statements of Pentecostal churches and your church formal membership in such a church) you have error mixed with truth, false doctrine mixed with true doctrine. (These errors have to do with your rejection of baptism and the Lord's Supper as true means of grace, your belief that human beings are less than fully dead in sin by nature, and that sinners are able to cooperate in some way in their own conversion, among other teachings).

Therefore, even though we are willing (and happy!) to acknowledge your confession of faith in Christ, we are called to testify against the error that is a part of your confession, and testify against the danger to your soul and the souls of other Pentecostals around you that you are exposing yourself to. This is not done in self-pride or hatred of you or any Pentecostal (that would be sin) but in love for God, his truth, our own souls, and the souls of others. Refraining from joint prayers is a part of this testimony. <hr /></blockquote>That ought to do for now. Apparently if you don't agree with these folks, you're out of luck. Kind of like Mormons actually (except on offical Mormon websites we don't waste time with creating a neat little webpage that will help you systematically dissect and denounce every other denomination on the planet). They reject anyone who doesn't believe exactly like them, even other Lutherans.

They actually spend more time telling everyone else how wrong they are than they do simply telling people what they believe.

Posted By: Allen

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/22/05 11:25 PM

heheh - I think their official opinion of the Assemblies of God are off a little... perfectionists? Maybe a little slow to keep up with the times, but hardly perfectionists -

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/23/05 06:53 PM

Joel,

You need a few more lessons on Christianity.

What you perceive as WELS saying

"your not good enough",

"WELS does not have a high opinion of you"

Is incorrect and an ABSOLUTE LIE and SLANDER & DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER. Do you see anywhere in what you have quoted where it says "you are not good enough" or "we are better than you" ? NO! It is one thing Joel if we say something and you misunderstand it, but clearly you are NOT. For you put your own words there, which are no where to be found in what you quoted. So clearly you are not misunderstanding something but have an ulterior motive of some kind.

What you "perceive" as contention within the Denominations is in reality what all true believers want, and that is unity! Unity can only come by all of us discussing our differences and leading one another to see the truth and be united! I look at the different denominations as being in varying levels of understanding and maturity. All false doctrine is of the devil. That does not mean that Christians who are believing in some false doctrine are intentionally following the devil!
Nor does it mean they are going to Hell!
All true believers will always want to hear everyone's views and then go to scripture to see if it is true.

When Wels and other denominations do this, they do it out of love for Christians of other denominations. I expect these other Church's to do the same! So that I can listen to their point of view to see if what they are saying is true!

Yes, we believe the Papacy is the antichrist, their are many reasons, but one is that the Papacy claims to be infallible. The Bible teaches that nobody is infallible except God alone. Anyone who therefore claims they are infallible then raises themselves up to equality with God. Thus the papacy fits the Biblical description of the antichrist.

This does not mean that all Catholic's are going to Hell. For they can still have a true saving faith.

On the purpose driven life, I have that book, and I really enjoyed it, learned alot from it.
Wels stance is that it is a book on sanctification with not much justification in it.
We believe that justification is the motivator to sanctification. Not the other way around.
The book was like putting the cart before the horse instead of putting the horse before the cart.
My Pastor has this book as well, and he intends to use it in a Bible study. But the difference will be that he will motivate us with the gospel of our justification, and only then go into the book.

Mature believers will understand and welcome this comparison of what people believe. They understand the intent is to come together into unity in doctrine. Out of love for one another.

You said: " apparently if you don't agree with these folks, you're out of luck" Another LIE, show me where it says that they are out of luck? In fact it says the contrary!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We in the confessional Lutheran church acknowledge that most Pentecostals are professing Christians and (as stated above) give thanks for that. (wels quote from Joel)<hr /></blockquote>Wels acknowledges they are professing Christians.
Yet you say that if they don't agree with us they are out of luck. And the other lies you have suggested. When clearly by this quote we show and acknowledge their faith!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If you are committed to the Bible as the true, errorless Word of God or you are open to examining that claim on the basis of the Bible's testimony, you should undertake for yourself a point-by-point comparison of the teachings of the two church bodies with the Bible. (wels quote by Joel)<hr /></blockquote>Does Wels DEMAND everyone believe what we believe? NO!!! they tell people to do a comparison of both beliefs using the scripture!

They are saying if effect, don't believe what we believe just because we say so, DO A COMPARISON!
A person is only required to keep their conscience clear by the word of God!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />we are called to testify against the error that is a part of your confession, and testify against the danger to your soul and the souls of other Pentecostals around you that you are exposing yourself to. This is not done in self-pride or hatred of you or any Pentecostal (that would be sin) but in love for God, his truth, our own souls, and the souls of others. (WELS QUOTE BY JOEL<hr /></blockquote>What does it say here, All Christians MUST testify to error that puts the souls of others in danger. This is very biblical and a very loving thing to do! To NOT do so, is pure HATRED!
It is NOT LOVING OUR BROTHERS! "and he who does not love his brother walks in darkness! And the love of God is not in him.

1John 2:10 "10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."

What does the Bible teach us to do?

1 Timothy 1:3"...so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer"

Titus 1:11 "They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach..."

James 5:19 "19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

Joel, I think I have shown that what WELS does is what God would have us do. Anyone who does not do this has been led by Satan into error. And is deceived into doing Satan's will. If your church teaches you this: and these are your words: "Kind of like Mormons actually (except on official Mormon websites we don't waste time with creating a neat little webpage that will help you systematically dissect and denounce every other denomination on the planet)" It is clear that you have been deceived. The Bible clearly shows that this kind of teaching is brotherly hatred.

If you had read all that you posted here about WELS, you would have noticed the things I pointed out as well. Nothing in the quote from Wels is "ridicule" or of a "disrespectful" nature.

What is in your heart Joel? By your words, you have slandered Wels when the quote you used clearly contains the opposite of what you are saying. Slander is a sin and it is a futile attempt to pit brother against brother. You show signs of utter contempt against me and my brothers in Christ. What is in your heart Joel?

Only Mormons are being led to Hell because they do not believe in the Jesus in the Bible.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/23/05 07:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What is in your heart Joel?

<hr /></blockquote>Mostly right now it's Irony.

Look, I don't care what WELS believes. I was just trying to point out how it feels to have your religion (a very dear, personal, and sacred part of you) undeservedly trashed. I know you think it helps to profess that it is done out of love, but it doesn't - not one bit of comfort is transferred by those words.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Only Mormons are being led to Hell because they do not believe in the Jesus in the Bible.
<hr /></blockquote>Let's see,
The bible teaches that Jesus is

The Son of God. I believe that
The Savior of the World. I believe that
The Redeemer of Mankind. I believe that
That he died on the Cross and paid for my sins. I believe that.
That on the third day he arose from the grave as the firstfruits of the Resurrection. I believe that.

What exactly is it that keeps me from having an equally valuable faith in Christ to prevent me from being saved?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/23/05 10:22 PM

Joel,

I understand how you feel like that I am "trashing your religion" And it hurts you. I don't want to hurt you Joel. I don't like the pain I have to inflict on you any more than you do! Believe me! But if I cross my arms and say nothing, you will end up in much more pain and infliction when you have to suffer all eternity in outer darkness! I hate to inflict pain on you, but if you would just listen and learn, you will see how I intend it for your good! I want to see you in heaven in the future! It is far better to inflict you now than let you be inflicted later when nothing no longer can be changed.

How then can I comfort you? That is the question.
I don't have the answer right now, I can only keep reassuring you that I care about you and pray that you will try your best to believe me.
I don't know what else to do?????

Think of it like this. Your child is going astray and doing things that will cause them to end up dead. Like for example, lets say they are drug addicts. Would you stand back and say nothing and let them go to their own destruction? Or would you speak up, even though they felt undeservedly trashed?

Posted By: embie

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/23/05 10:32 PM

I'd be interested in the answer to his question...

What exactly is it that keeps me from having an equally valuable faith in Christ to prevent me from being saved?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/23/05 10:36 PM

We must believe that Jesus did everything in order to give us eternal life. Christians believe we have eternal life in the kingdom of heaven based solely on the merits of Jesus.

In the LDS, one does not get eternal life (LDS equivalent is in the celestial kingdom) in the celestial kingdom until we have done all we can do. Meaning they reject Jesus as ALL sufficient to save them and claim he is only partially sufficient to save them. This is rejecting Christ.

We will be discussing this in great detail shortly in the thread "how do you get to heaven"

Posted By: embie

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/23/05 10:38 PM

No, I just never see a direct answer to his questions. They are usually just copied and pasted scripture or other things like "be patient".

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/23/05 10:56 PM

I feel I have to use scripture, Why should anyone believe what I say if I don't? God does his work through the word, without it, we have nothing.

I will be answering those questions in the other thread. So I did not want to talk about it here.
and double up on the conversation.

Sorry, I will answer all his questions.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/24/05 01:46 AM

AS FOR THE BELOVED ASSEMBLY OF GOD PEEPS....
NO MILLENIAL REIGN OF CHRIST? THE WELS SCRIPTURES ARE CONFUSING AT BEST AND DONT EVEN RELATE TO THIS EVENT.
HOW ABOUT THESE FOR SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT?

The Millennial Reign of Christ
The second coming of Christ includes the rapture of the saints, which is our blessed hope, followed by the visible return of Christ with His saints to reign on earth for one thousand years.

Zechariah 14:5 [KJV/NIV]
Matthew 24:27 [KJV/NIV]
Matthew 24:30 [KJV/NIV]
Revelation 1:7 [KJV/NIV]
Revelation 19:11-14 [KJV/NIV]
Revelation 20:1-6 [KJV/NIV]
This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel,

Ezekiel 37:21,22 [KJV/NIV]
Zephaniah 3:19,20 [KJV/NIV]
Romans 11:26,27 [KJV/NIV]
and the establishment of universal peace.

Isaiah 11:6-9 [KJV/NIV]
Psalms 72:3-8 [KJV/NIV]
Micah 4:3,4 [KJV/NIV]

HELLO?

AS FOR BAPTSIM ON HOLY SPIRIT.... SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE STATEMENT PLEASE? QUOTE:
We do not see speaking in tongues and faith healing as normative for Christians today.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------END QUOTE

AG POSITION
The Baptism in the Holy Ghost
All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early Christian Church. With it comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry.

Luke 24:49 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 1:4 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 1:8 [KJV/NIV]
1 Corinthians 12:1-31 [KJV/NIV]
This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth.

Acts 8:12-17 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 10:44-46 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 11:14-16 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 15:7-9 [KJV/NIV]
With the baptism in the Holy Ghost come such experiences as:

an overflowing fullness of the Spirit, John 7:37-39 [KJV/NIV], Acts 4:8 [KJV/NIV]
a deepened reverence for God, Acts 2:43 [KJV/NIV], Hebrews 12:28 [KJV/NIV]
an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, Acts 2:42 [KJV/NIV]
and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost, Mark 16:20 [KJV/NIV]

my turn to ask about scriptural eveidence of what you believe and why....everyone and anyone. echo? a3? embie? the scripture is plain.

i will answer for you...the world and traditional christianity have these pentecostal traits peculiar and controversial...

seems to me we are called to be a peculiar people to the world. it is a shame christians in america are afraid to accept biblical doctrine that is as clear as a bell. the baptismof the HG, tongues, healing, laying on of hand s inprayer, annointing with as representative of the spirit, praying aloud, praying in tongues, etc....you guys are SO mising out of the fullness of God and believe you me....the devil is behind it...if he can keep you from the baptism of the holy ghost. you will fight him with less than maximum ammunition....
i saw this as an opportunity to share...this post is for all who deny the full gospel and more specifically acts chapter2 and a corinthians 12 and 14.
nabster

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/24/05 03:38 AM

Hey Nabster, I have no clue what the AOG believe to be honest, you will have to share with me. Do you have a link that I could learn from?

When Wels talks about what you believe, it therefore is over my head. I have only been a Christian for 6 years, I got alot to learn yet.

BTW what is a peep?

I know that Wels does not believe in a rapture.

>>>

Mathew 24:21-24 "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now�and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect�if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

Revelation 13:5-10 "The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast�all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

Mathew 24:4-8 " Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."

Daniel 12:1 " 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people�everyone whose name is found written in the book�will be delivered."

Mark 13:9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 " Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

>>>

Wels believes this: Revelation says that I will "...keep you from the hour of trial..."Rev 3:10 meaning that God will preserve believers through those times, not take them out of those times. (Much like he preserved the Isrealites from the plagues of Egypt.

The concern I have for those who believe in a rapture is that they will be unprepared when the end times come. And will not have the strength given by God to endure it with victory.

If you are looking for a rapture, you will not be looking for God's help and strength to prepare you for the end times, and so you could find yourselves not being able to withstand the end times, not having been built up for it, and so you "may" fall from the faith. This is a great danger to you.

Another point, it is far better and safer to plan on us being here to the very end and get prepared for that, and then be surprised by a rapture, than it is to believe in a rapture, and find out how unprepared we are for when there isn't one.

Your best bet in finding out what our views are is to go to the website www.wels.net they have a Q&A, and they will answer any question you have. If you want scriptural support, be sure to ask for it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> will answer for you...the world and traditional Christianity have these Pentecostal traits peculiar and controversial...<hr /></blockquote>Wels does not take a stance that they are absolutely un biblical, Wels is very conservative, they are wary about it more than against it. They feel it is not normative for today, yet also they confess that God could do this if he so chooses. I guess what they are saying is that they believe that it is not normative, but certainly if the Church that has these doctrines could change their mind using scripture, they would certainly change their stance. I guess they are taking a cautious approach. For them it seems clearer to take the stance that it is not normative because other scripture on the matter causes them to be cautious. This is an uneducated guess though, perhaps you could ask that question at the website as well.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you will fight him with less than maximum ammunition....<hr /></blockquote>You will need to fill me in on your position, and teach me. I would like to learn.
For me, I feel that I have the maximum ammunition. I have the only weapon that works, God's word. What more do I need? God has given me faith and I don't need anything else. He equips me, plants things in my path, I don't need to do anything except say: "here I am, send me" He does everything else.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />AS FOR BAPTISM ON HOLY SPIRIT.... SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE STATEMENT PLEASE? QUOTE:
We do not see speaking in tongues and faith healing as normative for Christians today.
<hr /></blockquote>Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit�just as you were called to one hope when you were called� 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/24/05 05:36 AM

Nabster

I have a bit more for you to add to my above post:

I read through your references and this is what I come up with.

Zec 14:5 could be refering to when Jesus comes at the end of the world, it may not be reffering to a coming to rapture us.

Mathew 24: 27-31 verse 31 says they will gather his elect. This sounds like he comes at the end, no rapture.

Rev 1:7 This could be his coming at the end time as well.

Rev 19:11-14 This too does not lead me to see a rapture, but his coming at the end.

Rev 20:1-6 Verse 5 is a difficult passage to be sure. In my study Bible it says the 1000 year reign is the period of time from Jesus to the end. It is symbolic. So it is the entire NT period. They don't believe this is referring to a rapture because Jesus said to Pilate "my kingdom is not of this world" Jn 18:36

I still think it is much safer to not expect a rapture and be prepared for the worst. Than it is to believe in a rapture and then be unprepared when the worst comes.

Eze 37:21,22
Zephaniah 3:19,20
Romans 11:26,27
Jesus has brought us universal peace.
Eph 6:15 "and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace."

The gospel is the universal peace I think these passage are referring to. It only applies to believers though. They are not talking about universal peace in the world, but peace in our hearts. His kingdom is not of this world, you have to remember.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />an overflowing fullness of the Spirit, John 7:37-39 [KJV/NIV], Acts 4:8 [KJV/NIV]
a deepened reverence for God, Acts 2:43 [KJV/NIV], Hebrews 12:28 [KJV/NIV]
an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, Acts 2:42 [KJV/NIV]
and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost, Mark 16:20 [KJV/NIV]<hr /></blockquote>All believers have the Holy Spirit. So I don't understand why I need another Baptism to have the holy spirit? The kind of gifts that you are talking about were necessary as the Bible was not completed yet. The Bible is complete. We have everything we now need. Before the Bible was complete, the believers did not have everything they needed. Do you see what I am saying? The gospel brings us to faith, we are given the holy spirit, and the word, now complete, strengthens us so that we have an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost. The believers in the Bible did not have a complete Bible, WE DO.
The spirit works through the word to accomplish all these things in us now.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/24/05 04:53 PM

did jesus say he would send the comforter and that he must go? yes. and did he say we would do even greater works than he? yes. what did he mean?
the baptism of the holy spirit is not just for first century christians, the bible does not say nor teach that. it says all who seek the baptism will be given such. paul does say, i wish ye all speak in tongues.... it is for everyone. it is not required for salvation, it is not required to be an effective christian and bear fruit either. all i can say is it is an actual event in life and when you receive the fullness of the holy spirit, like overflowing cant-contain-it kind of fullness....you will never be the same. you want to know jesus not just know about him. you want to praise him directly, not just sing hymns...he becomes modern day real, he becomes a companion in all things, not just at church...your fire for him becomes like a bonfire.your intensity to share christ is always on your lips, i cant explain it fully, your spirit becomes tender towards others you may even weep for lost people, for no reason other than they are lost, you begin to see people as christ sees them....a soul in need of salvation.
your faith is increased, you are unshakeable ina world that shakes, you are able to recall scripture many times by the holy spirit's promptings. i cant explain it fully.....when AOG's get together and worship, freely i might add, the spirit inhabits the praises of his people, we praise deeply, he inhabits deeply, the presence of the holy spirit in our worship services is unlike baptist, methodist, lutheran catholic,church of christ and even mormon, we place a mojor emphasis on worship, becuase it is the holy spirit who convicts sinners of their need for jesus. if sinners are in our services, during worship, they have no doubt there is a god, jesus is real and that the holy spirit is tugging at them to receive jesus.
now tatr being said, not all assembly of god churches are the same...some are just as dead in their services as any other church. and some other denominations are on fire as well... just in general assemblies emphasize the holy spirit and his fullness.
all believers receive jesus in thier hearts and the holy spirit does come to live in them....however , just as paul asked early believers which baptism they had received...ie of water and forgiveness or of the holy spirit...we too agree...they are distinct and different. kind of like a cup gets a portion of the holy spirit at salvation, and when the baotism of the holy spirit happens, the cup now gets filled and overflows...
WHAT WAS ONCE ONLY INSIDE THE CUP IS NOW OVERFLOWING ON THE OUTSIDE TOO. IT IS A FULLNESS,
of joy, of peaise, of peace, of strength, of boldness, of comfort, of happiness, of hunger for christ, of service in ministry. i cant explain it....
te rapture is a different topic altogether and in the end we just believe we will be on the first bus out of here...whenever it is. beginning middle end doesnt matter, we will leave this world when jesus takes. we will endure to the end.
nabster

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/24/05 09:37 PM

Howdy Nabster!

I don't understand though, how you line up "two" Baptism's with this verse?:

Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit�just as you were called to one hope when you were called� 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />....however , just as paul asked early believers which baptism they had received...ie of water and forgiveness or of the holy spirit.<hr /></blockquote>This verse you are refering to is the Baptism prior to Jesus death. (John the Baptist)
Not the same as our Baptism for forgiveness of sins.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/24/05 11:49 PM

this is about unity of faith. one body, one spirit, ...unity... one hope , jesus...one lord, jesus, one faith, in jesus...unity. one baptism referring to water and forgiveness of sin...one god one father, unity....
the one baptism is not speaking about the baptism in the holy ghost. most references in the bible speak of having received the holy ghost since after you were baptised.
in acts chapter 1 verse 4..jesus is speaking here and he says...4And being assembled together with them, he commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the

PROMISE OF THE FATHER, WHICH , HE SAID, YOU HAVE HEARD FROM ME;
5"FOR John truly baptised with water, but you shall be baptised with the HOLY SPIRIT NOT MANY DAYS FROM NOW'"

AND LATER IN VERSE 8
" BUT YOU SHALL RECEIVE POWER WHEN THE HOLY GHOST IS COME UPON YOU"

PLEASE CONTINUE READING EPHESIANS AFTER VERSE 6 ALL THE WAY TO VERSE16...IT IS ABOUT UNITY. NOT ABOUT BAPTISM IN SPECIFIC. HEis writing to the church in ephesus, which needs instruction as they are a new body of believers, struggling with unity amongst themselves.

here is the purpose of the book ephesians:
to unveil the "mystery" of the church as no other epistle.God's secret intention is revealed: 1) to form a body to express chrsit's fullness on earth(1:15-23) to do this by uniting one people BOTH GENTILE AND JEW, among men whom God himself dwells (2:11 - 3:7) to equip, empower
and mature hid people to the end that they extend Christ's victory over evil (3:10-20; 6:12-20)
when taken into context properly...i believe you will see the stance of the assemblies and why...regarding the interpretation of this verse, to support.."there is no baptism of the holy ghost because there is one baptism"
thanks.
nabster

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/25/05 08:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />5"FOR John truly baptised with water, but you shall be baptised with the HOLY SPIRIT NOT MANY DAYS FROM NOW'"<hr /></blockquote>But John's baptism was prior to Jesus having completed his work, The Holy Spirit could not come until after Jesus ascended. (when I go to the father I will send the councellor...)

Are you saying that the "mystery" is the 3 things you listed? I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you or not??

Could you clarify for me and then I will read it again?

Thanks Nab!

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/26/05 12:30 AM

that mystery was the uniting of jew AND GENTILE.
the holy spirit came when jesus left and ssent him. this is why he said not many days from now...he had to leave.you are correct.
my point is , this scripture regarding one baptism, is about unity of people and faith andoverall complete unity...NOT that the baptism of the holy ghost is discluded.
nab

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/26/05 12:59 AM

I don't think I agree that the mystery was uniting the jew and gentile, I think the mystery is the gospel. Read the book from the start.

I don't get it just yet Nab, Unity, I agree, but unity in what? One faith, one lord, one baptism...

We cannot have unity in two lords, so why two baptism's?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/26/05 03:22 PM

the gospel was already revealed, the church at ephesus needed understanding of the jew and gentile concept. it is about unity of gospel to ALL, however.i see your point.

how do you reconcile all the other scripture regarding holy ghost and baptism thereof? the same paul speaking here , tells in corinthians that he speaks in tongues more than all of you, and that he wished they did also. and "hich baptism have ye received?" scripture...when he explains the baptism of the holy ghost. i still contend very plainly , that the one baptism scripturte is NOT referring to or eliminating the baptism of the holy ghost...after all ...the holy ghost IS God/JEsus...not different really, just mo betta.
You understand , JEsus received the HOly Spirit before his ministrry began? when the dove descended, it was a fullness thereof. Jesus , obviously ,did not need tongues, because he knew the will of the Father at all times. I contend it is the Spirit who gave Him the ability to do miracles and do ministry as He did. "The SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS, TO SET CAPTIVES FREE,ETC..' my own paraphrase/

He needed the holy spirit and annointing just as we do.why would jesus tell the apostles to taryy a little while until the holy ghost comes...they were already baptised and saved? this supernatural event was the beginning of Christ's church and the Holy Spirit gave the annointing and boldness to go forth and preach the good news. Today we still need the annointing to go and preach the good news.The word of God gives the wisdom and answers, the holy spirit shows us how to use it....
The scripture in Ephesians is about unity and has nothing to do with the Baptism of Holy Ghost...Being that the BAptism of HG is controversial to many christiana i can see why a particular denom. would interpret this way.
but again how do you reconcile other verses regarding the baptism in th holy ghost?
nab
nab

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/26/05 10:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />how do you reconcile other verses regarding the baptism in th holy ghost?<hr /></blockquote>Can you copy/paste the verses you are refering to for me? And the book and verse? I am not sure which ones you are specifically talking about.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />the holy ghost IS God/JEsus...not different really, just mo betta.<hr /></blockquote>Do you mean the Holy Spirit is better than God/Jesus?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/27/05 02:13 AM

I just want to add a few things to my above post

<blockquote>quote:<hr />the gospel was already revealed, the church at ephesus needed understanding of the jew and gentile concept. it is about unity of gospel to ALL, however.i see your point.<hr /></blockquote>I see your point now also, yes I agree that the portion of scripture there is talking about unity between Jew and Gentile. But also, it points out that the two (jew and gentile) have now become one just like one faith, one baptism, one Lord. In other words there is one Lord, One Baptism.

Jesus was Baptised "once" and emediately the spirit came down on him.

John's Baptism was prior to the death of Jesus and was a Baptism of repentance only, they did not recieve the Holy Spirit.

At Pentacost, those believers whom the spirit came down on were already Baptized by John but had not yet recieved the spirit, hence the spirit came on them at pentacost. They spoke in tongues, which was the languages of other people, it was not a language that only God could understand. The whole purpose for the tongues (foreign languages) was so that others could hear and understand the gospel.

Since then, the spirit comes when we are baptized in the name of Jesus. John's Baptism paved the way for Jesus. Therefore, one Baptism.
God could still give the gift of tongues (other languages) if he so chooses today. Perhaps if I were stranded on an Island and someone there spoke another language and there were no translators, and the person was dying, God could enable me to speak that language. But generally today, we have many translators and this gift is not necessarily needed any more. The Holy Spirit works faith and increases faith through the word and sacraments. In Baptism we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Each one of us is given a gift or several gifts as God so chooses. Tongues was never a gift to all believers either.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Today we still need the annointing to go and preach the good news.The word of God gives the wisdom and answers, the holy spirit shows us how to use it....<hr /></blockquote>We have all been annointed in our Baptism. You have to remember that all believers are to preach the good news, but not all believers had the gift of tongues.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/27/05 04:45 AM

you take me too literally...haint you wels folk got no humor? mo betta..
the holy spirit is equal to god and christ .equal.

yes and no. there are actually three distinct purposes for tongues.private prayer and intercession, public use for church edification and thirdly, yes, a real language for unbelievers.

two major emphasis...personal edification and public exhortation.
in the experience of the baptism or infilling of the holy spirit, "tongues" functions as a sign of the holy spirit's presence. jesus prophesied it as a sign(mark 16:17)
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;

they will speak in new tongues;

18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

paul referred to it as a sign (1cor 14:22)
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

and peter noted its uniformity as a sign-gift in confirming validity of thje gentiles' experience in the holy spirit(compare acts10:44 with 11:16,17 and 15:7-9). thus speaking in tongues is a properly expected sign, affirming the holy spirits abiding presence ans assuring the believer od an invigorated living witness. not a qualification for fullness but an indication thereof.
first speaking in tongues is a private affair of self edification(1 cor. 14:2-4)
2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

this is also speaking of two different applications or uses or types of tongues as well.
thus "glossolalia" is practiced devotionally by the believer in his most intimate and intercessory moments of communication with god as he is moved by the holy spirit. this "devotional " application my also be practised by corporate agreement, in group gatherings where no unbelievers or uninformed people are present(1 cor 14:23)
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

in line with this understanding , the following reasons are propounded for speaking with tongues.

this is a gift uniquely identified with the church of jesus christ...ALL OTHER GIFTS, MIRACLES AND MANIFESTATIONS WERE PRESENT IN THE OLD TEST. AND UP TO THE DAY OF PENTECOST BUT THE GIFT OF TONGUES IS UNIQUE. 1 COR 12 :28 AND 14:21

28And in the church GOD(EMPHASIS MINE) has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

AND
21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord.
IT IS a specific fullfillment of prophecies by Isaiah and Jesus

IS 28:11
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

compare that to 1 cor 14:21, mark 16:17, acts 2:4 and 10:46, and 19:6 and 1 cor 14:5, 14-18 and 39.
tongues is proof of resurrection and glorification of jesus..john 16:7 and acts 2:26

7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

EVIDENCE OF BAPTISM of holy ghost
acts 2:4 and 10:45,46 and 19:6
a spritiual gift for self edification; 1 cor 14:4 and jude 20
jude
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

and for edification of the church when accompanied by interpretation...1 cor 14:for communication with god in private worship.. 1 cor 14:15
15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

A means that the holy spirit intercedes through us inprayer...romans 8:26 1 cor 14:14 and eph 6:18
a spiritual means for rejoicing..1 cor 14:15,eph 5:18,19.

furthermore pauls application seems to indicate rest or refreshing when speaking in tongues...isaiah 28:12, 1 cor 14:21

tongues follow as one confirmation when the word of god is preached ...mark 16:17,20 and 1 cor 14:22

NOW FOR PUBLIC EXHORTATION....
PUBlic use of tongues also calls for integrity of use and practice. based on the foundation of love in all things. integrity is what preserves the use of the gift in fellowship and worship services.when placed in its proper setting it is a valuable worship experience for the body of christ. tongues just for the sake of tongues is not the end all gift we seek...it really is a minor one at that , when speaking of public use. prophecy is to be sought after, but its emphasis is the edifying th church body. not an every day occurance...we are not preoccupied with the public use of tongues.we see it as a part of the wholeness of our church, a fullness.
in public, the worshipper who feels led to speak in tingues is told scripturally to keeo silent unless they know one who has the gift of interpretation is present. 1 cor 14:5 and 28.
when it is truly the spirit(and sometimes it isnt) ther is order and harmony and an easiness that accompanies...side note we have a woman in our church who seems to be using her private praise language in public setting and it is out of her immaturity she has done so, we as leaders in the church have issued correction so as not to "mess up" an unbeliever who doesnt understand.

"the spirit of the prophets are subject ti the prophets"
1 cor 14:32...each person can exercise self control and should do so to avoid confusion among the body of believers present so that unity will prevail.1 cor 14:40.
it is important to understand the holy spirit freely gives and freely takes away. it is totally up to the holy spirit the gifts that are given...however tongues for personal edification is for all.

just as many things of god much study must be used before rendering a belief in or not in something. i have found most , who are not taught about tingues and the baptism tend to just go wit their churches doctrine....i did, i was raised southern baptist.
i was baptised in holy spirit 7 years ago, i was saved many years ago. i began to seek the infilling and learn about it in depth to be sure it was not a false doctrine of some holy rollers called pentecostals....i did recv...by faith just as you do when saved and you give your heart to jesus. you just know by faith...
i did speak in tongues...i just opened my mouth aND let come out what came out...not english..just syllables..by faith i knew it was the holy spirit speaking through me...hard to explain...the spirit does not overtake your tongue and take control...jesus didnt when you were saved and the holy spirit doesnt when you are baptised in him. by faith you recv. my confirmation was private from god to me that evening...i lay awake for about 4 hours unable to sleep...all i could do was praise jesus in my mind and with my lips until about 4 am. from midnite till 4 the spirit , through me, praised jesus christ....i had never ever done this before for even 20 or 30 minutes after worship was over. the baptism of the holy spirit changed my life forever. all i want to do is praise jesus christ, and honor god the father, and work in ministry and give and encourage and love and be involved in the things of God. if you knew me before you would say it is a real experience. dont get me wrong, jesus gloriously changed my life, but the holy sprit gave me a fullness i did not know existed. it is kinda like going from "on fire for god" to "ON BONFIRE FOR GOD".

so there you have it. longest post ever for me, i hope everyone reads and looks up references.
nabster.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 01:00 AM

Yaaaaaa I got a sense of humor, but I am not at all familiar with the teachings of the AOG.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
<hr /></blockquote>Okay, pick up snakes and drink deadly poison and get back to me in a week if you are still alive,

How's that for a sense of humor?

I see I have a lot of homework to do on this topic! LOL Gice me some time to study.

:-)

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 03:56 AM

translation is better read, "they shall take up(cast out) snakes"...poison refers to any deadly they drink, however not intentionally. there are some misinformed united pentecostal unity folks that believe in actual snake handling and drinking snake venom...a sect in the appalachian mountains has been known for people dying while hamdling rattle snakes...they believe it is a sign of true believers....they have been mislead.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 06:09 PM

nabster,

WELS doesn't believe in "speaking in tongues" or
"laying on of hands" because they don't experience it and have sought means within the Bible to justify their position and they've found them. They won't listen to or consider your interpretation, even if you give them reasonable scriptural evidence to do so.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 06:28 PM

WE AGREE ON THIS ONE JOEL?
AMAZING NO?
DO YOU GUYS ANNOINT WITH OIL?
ALSO, HOW OFTEN DO MORMON CONGREAGTIONS GET TOGETHER CORPORATELY FOR WORSHIP AND INSTRUCTION?

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 06:55 PM

Not so Amazing really, I contend that there are several acceptable Christian organizations that are far more cultish than Mormons.

Yes we annoint with Oil.

We have regular worship service on sunday. The service usually lasts about 1 hour and is followed by one hour of Sunday School and that is followed by one more hour of instruction.

Youth ages 14-18 have daily religious instruction in the wee hours of the morning before school.

Pretty regularly.

What's your take on infant baptism. I find the position indefensible from the Bible.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 08:16 PM

Joel
<blockquote>quote:<hr />WELS doesn't believe in "speaking in tongues" or
"laying on of hands" <hr /></blockquote>Not exactly right Joel, we believe that God can still give those gifts today if he chooses. He is not presently giving those gifts to us (Wels) in the way that the AOG believes he does. This does not make the AOG necessarily wrong. Wels would have us test other doctrine of the AOG first. If that doctrine does not line up with scripture, then we would not accept their teaching on tongues and healing either. We always want to be in a Church where all doctrine is true to the Bible as best we understand it.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 08:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />we believe that God can still give those gifts today if he chooses. He is not presently giving those gifts to us (Wels)<hr /></blockquote>That's interesting in light of the Biblical verse that started this Mark 16:17-18 <blockquote>quote:<hr />17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
<hr /></blockquote>Apparently, if these signs don't "accompany you" then you don't truly believe.

How does WELS reconcile their belief with this particular Biblical statement?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 08:35 PM

Like I said, I am just beggining this study, so anything I say may not be necessarily correct.

Mark 16:17-18 is referring to the apostles and believers before the Bible was completed.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 08:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mark 16:17-18 is referring to the apostles and believers before the Bible was completed.
<hr /></blockquote>Not really. Verses 15 & 16 say <blockquote>quote:<hr />Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure you would agree that this applies to us today as equally as it applied to the Apostles, so how can 15 & 16 apply to us and 17 & 18 can't. That doesn't make sense.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 09:07 PM

this is s good example of many many, evengelical denomination who refuse to accept things of the spirit due to controversy, even when scripture is clear. the gifts of the sporot are for us today, and for generations tomorrow. we had a service last night where many teenagers were gloriously infilled with the baptism of the holy ghost...it was awesome, many spoke in tingues for the first time as they were baptised... i have witnessed children and even a mentally retarded boy receive the baptism in holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues....so dont tell me it isnt for today's christians. because it is. and i still contend to say something god has provided for all believers to have and you to tell him, no i dont believe in it...is bordering on blasphemy...your elders and leaders in WELS(and baptists and catholic and presbyterian and churCH of christ and so on) cannot give solid irrefutable biblical scriptural evidence denying the baptism of the holy spirit for todays believer. the bible is really quite clear, and to deny the holy spirit giving you this gift from jesus, nonetheless, he is the baptiser, blows my mind....YOU PEOPLE ARE MISSING OUT ON ONE OF LIFE'S PUREST JOYS.

NABSTER

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 09:28 PM

Nab

I think you missed one of my posts

here it is again by friend,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WELS doesn't believe in "speaking in tongues" or
"laying on of hands"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not exactly right Joel, we believe that God can still give those gifts today if he chooses. He is not presently giving those gifts to us (Wels) in the way that the AOG believes he does. This does not make the AOG necessarily wrong. Wels would have us test other doctrine of the AOG first. If that doctrine does not line up with scripture, then we would not accept their teaching on tongues and healing either. We always want to be in a Church where all doctrine is true to the Bible as best we understand it.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 11/28/05 10:00 PM

he is giving these gifts to THOSE WHO SEEK AND ASK FOR THEM. YOU HAVE NOT BECAusE YOU ASK NOT.

darn caps lock'''/.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/02/05 11:04 PM

Echo,

YOu always harp on the fact that you wouldn't want to associate with a church that was in any way unBiblical - so I'm forced to ask - What's the deal with infant baptism?

There's no scriptural precedent, no biblical evidence of that being acceptable, no rhyme, nor reason. Jesus didn't do it, so why do you?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/02/05 11:33 PM

anything lutheran carries a little catholic ritualism. infant baptism, sprinkling is a nice dedication, but means nothing , really, to the childs salvation. it is a ritual from what i have personally witnessed.
i hope God honors it and I hope it makes a differnce..

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/02/05 11:36 PM

nabster - so you would agree that there is nothing in the Bible that pertains to infant baptism being acceptable before the Lord and the best we can do is hope that he recognizes it.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/03/05 04:48 AM

i do not think it is UNacceptable, just doesnt carry significant meaning to the child. We hold baby dedications, at church. we dedicate the child to the service of the Lord, and ask God to use him/her in ministry one day and we charge the parents to rear their children in a godly manner consistent with Biblical teaching. everyone gets a rose and a certificate to remember their commitment to raise their children in a loving christian home.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/03/05 05:51 AM

Joel

<blockquote>quote:<hr />YOu always harp on the fact that you wouldn't want to associate with a church that was in any way unBiblical -<hr /></blockquote>Just want to clarify this. I would associate with all people of all religions. I would not join a false religion nor would I join a Church if I was aware of false doctrine being taught there. But I would associate with all people.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There's no scriptural precedent, no biblical evidence of that being acceptable, no rhyme, nor reason. Jesus didn't do it, so why do you? <hr /></blockquote>Jesus said: " Go and make diciples of ALL nations, baptizing them..."

the word "ALL" includes infants and children, otherwise it would have said " Go and baptize all people 13 and up, or whatever the age may be.

Because scripture does not specify an age, all ages are included in the command "ALL"

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/03/05 04:35 PM

infants, i would contend do not have the capacity to be "discipples" yet. it says make disciples and baptize "them".
you are taking scripture out of context, in order to continue infant sprinkling that began within the cathoilic church.
Echo, seriously, what does infant baptism "do" for the child and/or the parents?
ritual only, dedication only....?
really it doesnt bother me, just dont see any scripture supporting any kind change as in salvation and baptism.
baptism for the sake of baptism....?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/03/05 05:25 PM

Infant Baptism shows the PURE Grace of God.
There is nothing that man can do to contribute to his salvation in any way.

Nothing shows the Grace of God more than infant Baptism.

My 5 year old is already a disciple, he invites his Dad to Church, He talks about Jesus at school. He prays for people. He invites his friends to church.

Baptism is the means by which the Holy Spirit creates or strengthens faith. Baptism washes all our sins away and brings us into the family of God.

What does Baptism mean to you? Just an outward sign?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/04/05 04:09 AM

Nabster, what are your thoughts on the Catholic Church? Do you believe they ever were the true Church, What I mean is do you believe that they were the true Church and later the teachings were corrupted?

What is your take?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/04/05 05:20 AM

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/04/05 05:25 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nabster:
We differ greatly on the freewill of choice in salvation. I believe we come to God of our own freewill, by the prompting of the Holy SPirit. You believe all who are saved are called from the beginning and have no choice in the matter....if this is so , infant baptism of someone whom God has not called means absolutley nothing.
God's grace is freely given to those who ask, it is also given to the unaccountable at judgement. An infant does Not receive salvation at an infant baptism.
if man cannot contribute to his own salvation what the heck is a sprinkling of an infant by a man doing for the infant?
You said nothing shows the grace of God more than Infant Baptism...i do not understand.

I would contend that salvation of someone, like Paul, or some really rotten sinful person shows the grace more....
Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

meaing...
through faith...an infant has not ability for faith.

i could go on. but i wont. salvation requires an act on our behalf not someone for us, it is a decision we will make in life. God calls all men to repentance and salvation...it is not his wish that any man should perish....but clearly some have and some will have eternity seperated from God,, by their own choice.

In regards to the Catholic Church...I know early in the church , ritualism began to incrementally make it's way in,. and grew in importance, and focus on Christ has been reduced. Praying to the saints and / or a priest is unbiblical, the deity of Mary is unbiblical. IMO. Pergutory is unbiblical, celibacy is unbiblical, and causing problems for many years I might add. Most Catholics I know, are drinkers, sinners, and do not understand what it means to live a truly holy life , with a hate for sin and the appearance of evil. They go to mass, have confession , say some rosary's and feel they have been justly forgiven and then go out and drink and cuss,and hate, etc. and do it all over again...THIS IS NOT ALL CATHOLICS BUT MANY CARRY THIS MINDSET AS ACCEPTABLE.
The BIble also says though grace abound much more than sin, should we continue in sin anyway? NO. this is foolishness.

I do not know if the Catholic Church was ever the true Church , I wasnt around then. I do not care either. What i do know is the Catholic church today has lost sight of many things. One being Jesus as Master and Jesus as King. The preisthood of the believer has been lost. The direct connection to God is de-emphasized in the praying to saints,mary and asking forgiveness from a Preist is outright Blasphemy.
Calling the Pope, most holy one or whatever is blasphemy. I have some issues with their ritualism and some doctrine personally, and i know many "converted" catholics who are and were very confused about WHO Jesus is and WHAT salvation really means, not conformation, but salvation.
nab <hr /></blockquote>

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/04/05 07:18 AM

Nab. I agree with you on the present state of the Catholic church and all the false doctrines.

I wonder if anyone else here knows if the Catholic Church in its begginnings was more faithful to the Bible?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We differ greatly on the freewill of choice in salvation. I believe we come to God of our own freewill, by the prompting of the Holy SPirit. You believe all who are saved are called from the beginning and have no choice in the matter.<hr /></blockquote>You said that you come to God of your own freewill by the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
Tell me all the details of your conversion?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You believe all who are saved are called from the beginning and have no choice in the matter.<hr /></blockquote>We have nothing to do with our salvation. It is competely an act of God.
However, once we are saved, we have freewill to reject it or we can remain. But we are saved first. The process is completed. We already have saving faith and are saved "before" freewill, God gets ALL THE GLORY, we get none.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />if this is so , infant baptism of someone whom God has not called means absolutley nothing.
<hr /></blockquote>Not so, the Bible says :"The promise is for you and your children..." Acts 2:39

God has called them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />God's grace is freely given to those who ask,<hr /></blockquote>No, the Bible says: John 15 :16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />it is also given to the unaccountable at judgement<hr /></blockquote>No, the Bible says : "17 "If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible." Leviticus 5:17

<blockquote>quote:<hr />An infant does Not receive salvation at an infant baptism.<hr /></blockquote>No, the Bible says: "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Galtians 3:26

You don't become a son of God until you are baptized. You aren't clothed with Christ until you are baptized.
All unbaptized Children are then NOT son's of God, nor are they clothed with Christ. This is a serious matter!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />if man cannot contribute to his own salvation what the heck is a sprinkling of an infant by a man doing for the infant?<hr /></blockquote>It is commanded by God:"Go and make deciples of all nations"Mathew 28:19 and " this promise is for you and for your children"Acts 2:39

Therefore it is God's decision and not man's.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You said nothing shows the grace of God more than Infant Baptism...i do not understand.
<hr /></blockquote>Because man does nothing in his Salvation, God gets all the Glory! The moment a person has to make a decision, it is a man/god salvation. That makes the decision work righteous! But we are saved by grace and not by works. Nor by human decision:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />it is a decision we will make in life.<hr /></blockquote>No, look what the Bible says: John 1:12-13 "12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God� 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

So infant Baptism shows the pure Grace of God and not a decision made by man.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

meaing...
through faith...an infant has not ability for faith.<hr /></blockquote>You yourself quoted a excellent passage, By Grace you are saved, through faith that not of yourselves

It is a gift of GOD! The faith is not of the Baby itself, it is a gift of GOD!

These following passages show they can have faith!

Mathew 10:42 "And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple"

Mathew 18:6 "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin"

...
Numbers 16 :27 "standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents"

This verse just simply points out that the little ones are smaller than children.
...

Look at the Old Testament, Babies were circumcized at 8 days old, Circumcision was the Means by which people became part of the covenant. In the New Testament, Baptism is the means by which we become part of the new covenant.

.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/04/05 06:09 PM

we will agree to disagree.
God wants no man to perish. f we have no choice in the matter because of that then all will be saved,no? TO say otherwise with your point of view would say that God is not sovereign.
What does this mean....
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Man has to open the door and let him in.
there are countless scriptures that demand we have action in our salvation experience.
nab

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/04/05 08:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />God wants no man to perish<hr /></blockquote>I agree
<blockquote>quote:<hr />f we have no choice in the matter because of that then all will be saved,no?<hr /></blockquote>No this is wrong, men have the freedom to reject the message when they hear it and some have hearts so hard, they do not even listen.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />TO say otherwise with your point of view would say that God is not sovereign.<hr /></blockquote>How?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.<hr /></blockquote>You have taken this out of context. This passage was written for those who already "believe." Spoken to believers in that Church.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />there are countless scriptures that demand we have action in our salvation experience.<hr /></blockquote>Your words have no weight without scripture, The Spirit works through the word. Show me the passages. Only then will you be able to convince me that I am wrong.

You believe in making a decision, yet scripture is so clear that it is not a human decision:

John 1:12-13 "12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God� 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

How can you justify a decision when scripture says it is not a human decision? It is clearly contradictory to the word of God!

The word "received" means: taken entirely passively, to take from another by hearing or listening.
On the other hand, "aquire" which is the opposite of "received" is what you are claiming we do by making a decision, it implies an active role, or some effort to obtain.

A "decision" is a work. It means you are not entirely saved by grace, you are saved by grace and one work, = your decision. Un biblical!

All your Children are not saved!

Here is what Jesus said: "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit" John 3:5,6

I got the following from Church this morning:

"Think of physical birth. We had no part in the process of conception. We didn't feed ourselves in our Mother's wombs. Nor did we thumb through the calendar to pick just the right months and days to celebrate as our birthdays for the rest of our lives. We had no part in the process of our creation. It happened to us.
What is true on physical birth is also true of our spiritual birth. It happened to us without our decision or activity. We who were dead in transgressions and sins at birth have found new life in Jesus. Scripture declares, "Because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions..." (ephesians 2:4-5)
God made us alive through the special washing of Baptism. "He saved us through the washing of rebirth, God has declared us innocent. Our innocence is an accomplished fact in Christ Jesus, sealed to us through this precious washing of rebirth. Yes, dear believer, you are born again in Christ. This rebirth is not a decision you arrived at. It is not a choice you made. Jesus clearly tells us, "you did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit-fruit that will last" (John 15:16) Only as a result of the Spirit's work through the means of grace can a believer now say yes to Jesus. Rejoice that God has come and created this new life of faith in your heart.
Babies cannot speak or assent. God must do everything. And that is Scripture's message. "It is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose" (Phil 2:13)
Baptism of babies is truly one of the loudest sermons on pure grace that the church proclaims"

.

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/04/05 11:43 PM

Echo said:

You have taken this out of context. This passage was written for those who already "believe." Spoken to believers in that Church.

How do you know this? Could it be that you took it the wrong way and he is right?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/05/05 02:08 AM

God wants no man to perish. we agree. IF he is sovereign, then his desire will be done- no man will perish. if one single person perishes than God's desire for no man to perish has been overruled....hence He is not sovereign..this is your position. God does all the saving, calling, and decision making in one's salvation, man has no part in it...so if one perishes God has failed. Man is passive. WHy then , if God wants all to recieve the gift of salvation, or men dying without it, especially if it is totally up to God? this is my point.
In John 1:12-13 your interpretation is literal and should not be.the context and words used mean this ...born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh = not of human nature or of flesh merely to escape punishment(we are talking here about redemptive work (see JOhn 17:2)not by right of mans theories and religions but of GOd who took mans place to save him.ie Jesus.

your conclusion of passivity regarding "recieving"

greek word is "paralambano" which means to receive, wear, associate with oneself,(in any familiar or intimate act or relation), to assume an office, figuratively to learn-take unto oneself. it is intimate decision for one's self.
it is not passive.

joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

CHOOSE.

PROVERBS 1:22-29

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Pro 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

CHOOSE.

GOD ACKNOWLEDGES OUR ABILITY TO CHOOSE THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE, SALVATION IS NO DEFFERENT.

1 CHRON 21:10
Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three [things]: choose thee one of them, that I may do [it] unto thee.
1Ch 21:11 So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee

PROVERBS 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

PROVERBS 3:31
Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways

MARK 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

IT DOESNT SAY HE THAT GOD CALLS WILL BE SAVED.

LUKE 13:1-5
There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

THIS IS ABOUT CHOOSING AND IT IS CHRIST SPEAKING.

JOHN 3:14-18(the grandaddy of em all)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

and verse 36 same chapter
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

2 peter 3:9(that man should repent)AN ACT.
The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 JOHN 1:5-10
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

THIS IS CHOICE AND GOD ACKNOWLEDGES OUR ABILITY TO CHOOSE THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE...caps lock, sorry.
The plan of Jesus as saviour would never been necessary if God has called us all and is soveriegn and we have no part in it.

rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

quite frankly I do not even understand why doctrine would teach we have no choice in life, salvation, or our will.

The Lord's prayer says we are to forgive so that we may be forgiven...the opposite is true as well. Forgiveness is a big deal to God. And if we cannot forgive our "debtors" against us, the Father will not forgive us.
You are deceived if you believe all sin is forgiven without your asking and you are deceived if you believe God will forgive you, if you hold unforgiveness in heart as well.
this is not works, it is humility before God to ask Him for grace. He has given it to us freely, in order to receive it we do have to be obedient to his Word.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/05/05 02:21 AM

Hi Mouse

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You have taken this out of context. This passage was written for those who already "believe." Spoken to believers in that Church.

How do you know this? Could it be that you took it the wrong way and he is right?<hr /></blockquote>Revelation 3:14-21
14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm�neither hot nor cold�I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

As you can see, all these verses are specifically addressed to the church at Laodicea. They are believers.

So verse 20 is directed towards believers.

Hope that helps.

.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/05/05 06:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I wonder if anyone else here knows if the Catholic Church in its begginnings was more faithful to the Bible?<hr /></blockquote>It was, they used to not baptize infants and only baptized by immersion. It wasn't until after the canonization of the Bible that they "changed the ordinance" (Isaiah 24:5) They also used to perform baptisms for the dead - but that discussion belongs in another thread.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />:"The promise is for you and your children..." Acts 2:39
<hr /></blockquote>I certainly think some Children, even as young as five are accountable to make a choice for Christ - it's interesting though that the verse doesn't say "The promise is for you and your children and you infants."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />John 15 :16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you"<hr /></blockquote>Jesus was not speaking to the entirety of his disciples here, rather he was only speaking to the 12 Apostles.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Look at the Old Testament, Babies were circumcized at 8 days old, Circumcision was the Means by which people became part of the covenant. In the New Testament, Baptism is the means by which we become part of the new covenant.<hr /></blockquote>It's a little known historical fact, but certain pre-Messianic Jews actually practiced baptism in addition to circumcision.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />How can you justify a decision when scripture says it is not a human decision? It is clearly contradictory to the word of God!<hr /></blockquote>All I know is that a conversation in another thread started when Echo said (and I'm paraphrasing here), "you can't pray to ask for wisdom because Jesus never did that so it's not biblical."

Jesus wasn't baptized as an infant either. He was baptized as an adult by immersion. Hence, infant baptism is not biblical.

You've shown alot of verses saying baptism is for everyone, and I agree, everyone should be baptized.

The doctrine of passivity in the Lutheran Church is dangerous. I've lived in a Lutheran country, where the Lutheran Church is the State Religion. You are born a Lutheran unless your parents expressly state that you are not to be a Lutheran. I've seen what the doctrine of passivity in salvation does to a people spiritual. It destroys them, it leads them into gross sin and corruption. It's not a pretty site. That being said, the landscape in Norway is absolutely beautiful.

For you, Echo, you are unwilling to allow for a person to pray and ask God for the truth. Scriptures that say "Ask and ye shall recieve, knock and it shall be opened unto you" or "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God." Aren't direct enough to allow for that to be a biblical possibility.

I don't understand the double standard. None of the verses you've referred to directly command us to baptize our babies. Since you would take nothing short of "You must pray to know the truth" as biblical evidence that praying for knowledge is allowable, why are you accepting of such a watered down standard for infant baptism. I would of thought that you would need a verse that says "Baptize your babies or you'll go to Hell" in order to do that.

The evidence points to baptism as something older than a baby. Jesus was about thirty, The Eunuch baptized by Phillip was an adult. There isn't a single scriptural incidence recorded where a baby was baptized.

Back to the Early Christian Church - they didn't do it either, not for many centuries. The first instance of baptism by sprinkling was that of a sick man, Novatian, who was afraid he would die unbaptized, and in 251 A.D. had himself sprinkled �in apprehension of death� (Neander�s CHURCH HISTORY, I, p. 325). In 753 A.D. pope Stephen III legislated that �in cases of necessity� pouring water on the head �was acceptable� (EDINBURGH CYCLOPEDIA, III, pp. 245-246).

In 1311 a council of bishops meeting at Ravenna in Italy voted that either sprinkling or immersion was acceptable (George A. Klingman, CHURCH HISTORY FOR BUSY PEOPLE). The practice of sprinkling then took over universally (except in the Greek Catholic Church) and has spread into many denominations. And eventually it spread to the baptism of babies. And now they scramble seeking biblical justification for a doctrine that was initiated by a Pope (some of them even think the Pope is the antiChrist and yet they still practice a doctrine created by the Pope).

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/05/05 09:33 PM

Let's keep a tally so Echo doesn't forget to respond.

Sprinkling baptism - not biblical
Infant baptism - not biblical

Both are false doctrines that have no origin in the Bible and were instituted by a pope who was the antiChrist according to Echo, but yet WELS still embraces them.

So when does this happen? <blockquote>quote:<hr />I would not join a false religion nor would I join a Church if I was aware of false doctrine being taught there. <hr /></blockquote>

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/05/05 10:52 PM

many scriptures above regarding "choice" as well....still waiting.
...........................................

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/06/05 12:16 AM

I will respond! When Joel gives me a chance, I have spent the entire day today answering his posts, no room for anything else. Not complaining, just too busy.

On a lighter note Joel, don't you have a job? You been posting in here faster than I can answer! SLOW DOWN

LOL

I will answer be patient.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/06/05 03:58 AM

Nabster, wow am I behind and have a lot to respond to here! LOL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />IF he is sovereign, then his desire will be done- no man will perish. if one single person perishes than God's desire for no man to perish has been overruled....hence He is not sovereign..this is your position.<hr /></blockquote>I think you misunderstood me somewhere?
Let me explain this another way.

Man cannot choose God.

John 15:16 ""You did not choose me, but I chose you"

John 15:19 "19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

1 Peter 2:9 "9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

Man cannot make a decision from the will of the flesh or the will of the man

Again :John 1:12-13 "12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God� 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

And the same verse in the KJV uses "nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man"

Human beings do not have the natural power or free will to accept Jesus as Savior as the Bible teaches:

1 Corinthians 12:3 "...and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

So, it is impossible for us to have anything to do with our Salvation. It is completely an act of God. However, once we are saved, we have freewill to reject it or we can remain. But we are saved first. The process is completed. We already have saving faith and are saved "before" free will.

Wels explains what I said earlier a little more clearly:

"To believe that one's fate is set by one's own free will and decision means you do not need a gospel that IS THE POWER OF GOD FOR SALVATION. because by your decision you claim your "own" power for Salvation. Obedience to God shows you have made your own "decision" for Christ. Whereas for us, obedience to God shows God has chosen us by the power of his gospel!"
"on the other hand, concerning the believer whom the Holy Spirit has brought to faith, of him it can be said that he "accepts" what God has promised in the Scripture. including also the merit of Christ's redemptive work on the cross. Keep in mind, though, that it is the NEW MAN, THE BELIEVER, AFTER his conversion, who trusts, believes/accepts/recieves what Christ has done"(wels)

It is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purposes!

So the free will only comes in AFTER we are already saved! So we did not contribute to our Salvation by a decision. Even though now we are able to make decisions in the NEW MAN. We are already saved! SO there really is no decision at all! Our decision is just to remain in the salvation we already have! It is not a decision in order to be saved!

How can I make a decision to be born again, when the ability to make that decision comes from the NEW MAN meaning I am already Born again?

So because the power lies with God and not man, we Baptize babies. Pure Grace for those for whom it is impossible to decide and so that they will be born again and be able to do the will of God!

Faith itself is also a gift from God.

So I think all the passages you quoted are explained by what I have now written more clearly. If you do not think so, let me know and I will go through each and every one for you.
But first, try thinking about what I am saying here and then go back to those passages and you may conclude then and see what I am saying.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/06/05 04:25 AM

Joel

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I certainly think some Children, even as young as five are accountable to make a choice for Christ - it's interesting though that the verse doesn't say "The promise is for you and your children and you infants."<hr /></blockquote>You are not understanding that it is impossible for us to make a decision. Once you see that from scripture, infant Baptism naturally falls into place.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Jesus was not speaking to the entirety of his disciples here, rather he was only speaking to the 12 Apostles<hr /></blockquote>You are right, he is speaking to the apostles but this is meant for us too because:

1 Peter 2:19 says :"1 Peter 2:9 "9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

This verse points out that all of us are chosen.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It's a little known historical fact, but certain pre-Messianic Jews actually practiced baptism in addition to circumcision.<hr /></blockquote>You could be right about the baptism's, I don't truly know, but the point of my statement is that 8 day old babies were made a part of the covenant as babies. NO decision or choice about being apart of the covenant was made nor necessary.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Esho said:How can you justify a decision when scripture says it is not a human decision? It is clearly contradictory to the word of God!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joel said: All I know is that a conversation in another thread started when Echo said (and I'm paraphrasing here), "you can't pray to ask for wisdom because Jesus never did that so it's not biblical."<hr /></blockquote>I am sorry Joel, I can't see the connection or point you are trying to make. By the way, your paraphrase is incorrect. I said you can't pray to see if somthing is true. However, you can pray for wisdom from that already revealled truth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Jesus wasn't baptized as an infant either. He was baptized as an adult by immersion. Hence, infant baptism is not biblical.<hr /></blockquote>Do you baptize Mormons at age 30 only?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The doctrine of passivity in the Lutheran Church is dangerous. I've lived in a Lutheran country, where the Lutheran Church is the State Religion. You are born a Lutheran unless your parents expressly state that you are not to be a Lutheran. I've seen what the doctrine of passivity in salvation does to a people spiritual. It destroys them, it leads them into gross sin and corruption. It's not a pretty site. That being said, the landscape in Norway is absolutely beautiful.<hr /></blockquote>The doctrine in our Church leads us to love the Lord and makes us very willing to do his will"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />For you, Echo, you are unwilling to allow for a person to pray and ask God for the truth. Scriptures that say "Ask and ye shall recieve, knock and it shall be opened unto you" or "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God." Aren't direct enough to allow for that to be a biblical possibility.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, the Bible does tell us to ask and we will recieve, but it also tells us if we ask according to his will we recieve what we ask for. We can't pick and choose scripture, scripture must be taken as a whole. Praying to see if somthing is true is not according to his will as I have already pointed out.
Ask for wisdom? YES. YES. YES. but from his already revealled word. Asking for wisdom from already revealled truth is much different than asking to reveal if somthing is true.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The evidence points to baptism as something older than a baby. Jesus was about thirty, The Eunuch baptized by Phillip was an adult. There isn't a single scriptural incidence recorded where a baby was baptized.<hr /></blockquote>Again, you have to first understand that we simply cannot make a decision for Christ. When you understand that concept, then infant Baptism naturally falls into place. Pure Grace saves even infants. So go back to scripture to first learn how it is impossible for you to decide for Christ.

Baptizing by sprinkling or immersion are both proper.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/06/05 02:19 PM

i will never believe that choice is absent from salvation. Echo.
Is God sovereign?
answer: yes
The Bible says he is "no respector of persons"...he treats all the same.
He wants no man to perish to a devils hell correct?

Why then are people dying and going to hell, having never received salvation? DOnt tell me all are saved yet some have fallen away.
God's sovereignty is garbage if one single person dies and goes to hell under your interpretation. HE CALLS US< AND CALLS US ALL..TOTALLY IN CONTROL AND CHOOSES US. WE HAVE NO CHOICE IN INITIAL SALVATION,YET MEN ARE DIEING AND SPENDING ETERNITY IN HELL. tHIS IS NOT MY GOD. My God says "CHOOSE YE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE....
The scripture i outlined above contradict your position and some of your references are out of context.
I dont have the time and dont think you understand me either. PLease address the scripture i quoted stating GODS position on choice.
nab

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/06/05 05:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />John 15:16 ""You did not choose me, but I chose you"<hr /></blockquote>Is addressed solely to the 12 Apostles as Jesus literally did walk around and actually choose them. From John 12 through John 17, Jesus is speaking to the Apostles, not his greater discipleship, which would then include you and me. That doesn't mean we can't take lessons from those chapters, but John 15:16 is to obviously directed at the Apostles and the Apostles alone. John 15:19 same thing - Apostles only.

1 Peter 2:9, yes we are a chosen people. but that doesn't literally mean, God went around and chose us, but rather because of our choice of God we have become chosen. Stating that 1 Peter 2:9, makes it so that what is said in John 15 can apply to us is an assertion and it is false. Moreover, a reading of 1 Peter 2:9 in context makes it clearly evident that Peter is saying they are chosen because of their belief. Not because God chose them, but rather because they believed.

This statement <blockquote>quote:<hr />It is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purposes<hr /></blockquote>is the kind of statement that drives folks like our friend mouse running and screaming away from Christianity. If this is a true statement, then it makes God highly discriminatory in that he clearly hasn't been working in anybody in the Middle East for centuries. God will not take away your ability to choose. That's communism and God isn't a Communist. The gospel is available to all who wish to partake and they don't have to wait for God to make them. It makes God seem like the bully on the playground who doesn't pick the kid with glasses to be on his team for dodgeball.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So I think all the passages you quoted are explained by what I have now written more clearly. If you do not think so, let me know and I will go through each and every one for you.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think so, I know I'm not nabster, but I'd like to see you actually go through each verse.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you baptize Mormons at age 30 only?<hr /></blockquote>through revelation we believe the age of accountability is 8. At 8 years old a child will be privately interviewed and asked if he believe in Christ and if he wants to be baptized. They make the choice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The doctrine in our Church leads us to love the Lord and makes us very willing to do his will"<hr /></blockquote>I'm sure you feel that way, but go take a gander at Norway and how much they love God. (here's a hint - not all that much - they love sex, drugs, alchohol, and sex, and sex and sex, and sex, but not much God - and they are about 90% Lutheran) By their fruits ye shall know them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am sorry Joel, I can't see the connection or point you are trying to make. By the way, your paraphrase is incorrect. I said you can't pray to see if somthing is true. However, you can pray for wisdom from that already revealled truth.<hr /></blockquote>NO actually you specifically stated that with Christ as an example, since he never prayed to know the truth we can't. I responded by saying that of course he didn't pray to know the truth because he is the truth. Bear in mind that you admittedly have a memory problem.

So the point remains, Jesus wasn't baptized as a baby, so by your reasoning, we shouldn't be either.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes, the Bible does tell us to ask and we will recieve, but it also tells us if we ask according to his will we recieve what we ask for. We can't pick and choose scripture, scripture must be taken as a whole. Praying to see if somthing is true is not according to his will as I have already pointed out.
<hr /></blockquote>You've missed the point. If the Bible doesn't explicitly say that we can pray to know if the revealed truth it contains is actually true, then we can't - according to you (for the sake of this discussion, I'm granting you that point). Using the same pattern of reasoning then, if the Bible doesn't explicitly say or at least have one example of an infant being baptized, then we can't follow suit. It's unbiblical.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Again, you have to first understand that we simply cannot make a decision for Christ. <hr /></blockquote>I don't have to understand anything.. the burden of proof here lies on you. Your church is the one following a practice initiated by an AntiChrist Pope, not mine. There is no evidence in the Bible or out of the Bible that there was a single sprinkling baptism prior to 251 and infant baptism was not practiced at all during biblical times and only became accepted under Saint Augustine (the aforementioned AntiChrist).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />When you understand that concept, then infant Baptism naturally falls into place. Pure Grace saves even infants. <hr /></blockquote>According to the scriptures, infant baptism doesn't naturally fall into place, the most natural thing would be to follow the example of the Savior and be baptized when one can decide for themselves.

Of course you say we can't choose, but then conclude your most recent post with <blockquote>quote:<hr />So go back to scripture to first learn how it is impossible for you to decide for Christ.<hr /></blockquote>How can I decide when I can't choose in the first place? Isn't the doctrine unraveling a bit?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Baptizing by sprinkling or immersion are both proper.<hr /></blockquote>This is an assertion that you haven't even come close to proving. Not even within 7000 miles of proving from the Bible.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/06/05 10:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECHO SAID: I am sorry Joel, I can't see the connection or point you are trying to make. By the way, your paraphrase is incorrect. I said you can't pray to see if somthing is true. However, you can pray for wisdom from that already revealled truth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JOEL SAID: NO actually you specifically stated that with Christ as an example, since he never prayed to know the truth we can't. I responded by saying that of course he didn't pray to know the truth because he is the truth. Bear in mind that you admittedly have a memory problem. <hr /></blockquote>I went back and copy/pasted three responses to this, Where I said you cannot pray for God to reveal truth but that you can pray for wisdom from the already revealled truth.

Here is what I posted in the past.
quote:
________________________________________
JOEL: Do you mean to tell me that praying to God is not a valid means of coming to knowledge of the truth?
________________________________________
Depends what you mean. If you mean: Is praying a valid way to find NEW truth� then my answer is no.
If you mean to get clarification or understanding from the truth as it is revealed already in the Bible, I would say yes, but the whole point is that you are telling us to pray to God to see if the BOM is true. This is unbiblical. This is praying to see if the BOM is NEW truth.

>>>

I believe that we can ask God for wisdom, but he answers those prayers through his word.
Through his truth. I also believe that if we ask, we shall receive. But we only receive that which is in agreement with the Will of God. Asking God to reveal if something is true is not in the Will of God, his truth has already been revealed in the Bible.

>>>

I can not pray about the gospel to see if it is true. I must hear the message of the gospel to see if it is true.

Yes, God answers prayers but always in accordance with his already revealled will and truth in the Bible. Faith never comes through prayer, faith comes from hearing the message of the gospel. THAT is his revealled will.

We need "TRUTH" in order to know how to pray, what to pray for, and how God answers our prayer. Anything that comes apart from "already revealled truth" is only "Human Interpretation"
In other words, What I percieve as answered prayer, is in reality, my interpretation saying that it was an answer to prayer. In other words, I am deciding what is an answer and what is not. (does that make sense) But if I go to the Bible first, it is the truth, I learn there how God answers prayer, then when I pray, I will recognize the answer. I will know what to pray for etc.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I responded by saying that of course he didn't pray to know the truth because he is the truth<hr /></blockquote>Both Christianity and the LDS agree that Jesus had to grow in wisdom and stature. So your response holds no weight.

Hope that helps

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/06/05 10:45 PM

I will answer the rest later, I have much too do.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/07/05 12:06 AM

Okay, take a deep breath.

On 11-04-2005 at 8:58pm you posted the following:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Joel,

Praying to God to ask him if the Book of Mormon is true is not biblical.

Jesus as our example never once prayed to God to ask if something was true.

When Jesus was tempted, he used the SCRIPTURE, to defeat the devil. The Pharisees and Saducees tried to trick or trap Jesus, but what did Jesus do? He used the SCRIPTURES. Jesus never once prayed to heavenly Father to show him the truth, he always used SCRIPTURES where "truth" was concerned.<hr /></blockquote>Your point is that because Jesus never prayed to ask if something was true, neither can we. But we both know that Jesus did pray so praying is fine.

Now, the point of this discussion is that you have a double standard.

Jesus didn't pray to know the truth, so we can't.
Jesus wasn't baptized as an infant, but we can?

That doesn't jive with your own line of reasoning.

You can't have it both ways.

Which is why I said <blockquote>quote:<hr />for the sake of this discussion, I'm granting you that point). Using the same pattern of reasoning then, if the Bible doesn't explicitly say or at least have one example of an infant being baptized, then we can't follow suit. It's unbiblical.
<hr /></blockquote>So either it's okay to pray to know the truth and it's okay to baptize babies, even though Jesus did neither.

Or

It's not okay to pray to know the truth and it's not okay to baptize babies.

I'm saying that your reasoning is flawed and inconsistent. I don't care about the point on whether or not we can pray to know the truth right now, I'm telling you your reasoning is flawed.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 04:59 PM

from the mormon thread but needs to be here....

WHat say you about the appearance of evil...you did not address that echo.

Echo, where is your call to purity? Why drink at all when the affects are and statistics are staggeringly detrimental? BTW the wine of today is nothing like the wine of Jesus's time. I am certain it is much stronger. But that is neither here nor there....what do YOU say about, "avoid the appearnace of evil....or your testimony being weakened when a non- believer stumbles over YOUR drinking casually. To have elders in the church partake of anything considered and perceived as sinful in nature is just wrong. It hurts the witness of Christ. Perception is reality and the perception of clergy, elders, popes, or christians drinking casually is detrimental to Christ. The bible also says God made every HERB. Are you gonna tell me it is okay for Christians to take a hit of marijuana, not get high, just in moderation. and for sake of argument in a country where it is legal? the BIble doesnt say "dont smoke dope" it doesnt say anything about it...remember today we call it a drug, years ago they didnt...perception is reality. and reality is, drinking and dope are both wrong. they alter perception...even one drink...alters perception...and we are called to have a clean mind...the body is the temple and to distort the mind of the "temple" with drink is wrong.
And for you to tell me casual drinking doesnt lead to the occasional drunk is ridiculous.
Your analogy of eating is also ridiculous...we eat to live. it is nutrition. wine is not , it is for pleasure only. sure , it is grapes and has some nutritional value, but none we couldnt get out of the food it is produced from. the alcohol is not nutritional. gluttony is a sin and it proves that anything pleasurable will be abused. clearly you drink, or you would not defend your position as such. am i right?
WHAT ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY AND THE APPEARANCE OF EVIL?
your WELS doctrine has just been downgraded with me and I am a believer. what about the confused unbeliever? err on the side of righteousness not the side of unrighteousness.

so , let me see if i am corret...WELS doctrine says drink but dont get drunk, and give some money but only a tenth if your heart says to do so. It says baptise infants into salvation, because we have no choice in the matter and it says , once saved always saved. it is says grace covers every sin now and in the future and we dont have to ask for it, because it has already been done. it says the old covenant and the ten commandments and mosaic law are completely replaced.
It says if it is in the Bible literally do it, it says if it isnt dont....
you have never addressed scripture about the Holy Spirit and you have never addressed scripture about baptism of the holy spirit. i guess because of controversy your church hasnt taught you about that yet.
you come to correct others you see as deceived and I do the same. WELS is deceiving you regarding the fullness of the Holy SPirit and Holiness in your life. It is deceiveing you about the Great Commission as well, because clearly only God can call the unbeliever and He has already decided who is chosen....

How much more missions work could be done by the CHurch if everyone would be obedient in their tithe?
nabster

--------------------

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 05:10 PM

nabster, are you sure you aren't a Mormon?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 05:36 PM

that's what I am wondering too!

I actually thought I was reading Joel's post and then at the end it said: NAB. then I thought WHAT? ha ha

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 05:39 PM

Could you wonderful people give me a chance to catch up? I am still 2 pages behind in this thread, Nabster, by his questions, requires that I practically read the entire Bible to answer! LOL

I would put my answers in here in seperate posts but I am afraid there will be 20 more pages before I get done! heh heh.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 07:11 PM

Okay, I have decided to post seperate posts because I can't finish them all at once. Could you all wait to reply until I put in a post at the end that will say: DONE ???

That way I don't have to cover things more than once. Some of my later posts may clear up any questions you have and so then you won't be asking me questions that I may answer before I am done. (phew...that was a mouthful)

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 07:28 PM

Keep in mind as you go through these verses that a Believer is already saved, and that repentance flows from faith, and choice flows from faith. If a person has faith, they are already saved .

PROVERBS 1:22-29 � This one says that these people were called ( Verse 24) before the �choose� verse comes up

1 CHRON 21:10 - Spoken to David, a believer

PROVERBS 3:31 - Spoken to believer�s

MARK 16:15-16 - spoken to believer�s

MARK 16:16 - spoken to believer�s

LUKE 13:1-5 � I already said in one of my last posts that man can always reject salvation . The reason is because man is naturally apposed to God and an enemy of God. Some just keep their ears closed because there hearts are so hard.

JOHN 3:14-18 & 36 � Faith is a gift from God, it is not something we do.
2 PETER 3:9 � It is God who brings us to repentance

1 JOHN 1:5-10 � spoken to believers

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The plan of Jesus as saviour would never been necessary if God has called us all and is soveriegn and we have no part in it.<hr /></blockquote>We cannot contribute to our Salvation by making a choice, repenting , or believing. These are all things that God does for us or works in us It is his will that all be saved. But it is also his will that man have the freedom to reject it. But, they have not the ability choose in the sense that it �completes� their Salvation. One must � first� be saved before the free will is restored! To choose to remain means we are already saved! Thus, we don�t contribute to that for which we already have.

People cannot �believe� or �choose� without having first heard the message:
The Bible says: How can they believe in the one they have not heard? Romans 10 :14 �How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?�
Once they believe, they already are saved!

Repentance is something God leads us to do, one must �have faith� first in order to repent. Why repent, if you don�t believe?
Romans 2:4 �Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?�

It is God who works all these things in us.
Philipians 2:13 �for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.�

Once you are a believer, your free will is restored and you are able to choose to do God�s will and desire to do so! But you are always free to leave God�s family if you choose as well.

NOT DONE, PLEASE WAIT

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 07:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 1 Peter 2:9, yes we are a chosen people. but that doesn't literally mean, God went around and chose us, but rather because of our choice of God we have become chosen. Stating that 1 Peter 2:9, makes it so that what is said in John 15 can apply to us is an assertion and it is false. Moreover, a reading of 1 Peter 2:9 in context makes it clearly evident that Peter is saying they are chosen because of their belief. Not because God chose them, but rather because they believed.�<hr /></blockquote>Faith comes from the message of the gospel. God has chosen us by Jesus� sacrifice! He died for us! No one can believe unless they first hear the message of the Gospel. Faith is a gift of God. 1 Peter goes on to say what? �that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light�

He called us! He brings us to faith through the gospel!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> . God will not take away your ability to choose<hr /></blockquote>God did not take away our ability to choose! The result of the fall in Eden took away our ability to choose! The fall robbed us of our free will. The Gospel, restores free will! But when our free will is restored, we are already saved so that our free will does not contribute to our salvation. Even after we come to faith, we are now free to stay or go, but a choice to stay does not contribute to our salvation because we are already saved!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm sure you feel that way, but go take a gander at Norway and how much they love God. (here's a hint - not all that much - they love sex, drugs, alcohol, and sex, and sex and sex, and sex, but not much God - and they are about 90% Lutheran) By their fruits ye shall know them.<hr /></blockquote>There are false Church�s and true Church�s there are believers and unbelievers in all Church�s I am sure!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> How can I decide when I can't choose in the first place? Isn't the doctrine unraveling a bit?<hr /></blockquote>The doctrine is not unraveling at all, perhaps you could reread what I posted because you missed what I said.

NOT DONE YET, PLEASE WAIT

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 08:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Jesus didn't pray to know the truth, so we can't.
Jesus wasn't baptized as an infant, but we can?
<hr /></blockquote>Joel, we always have to take the Bible as a whole.

First, there is no record of Baptism in the Old Testament. It was never instituted or practiced.
The Old Testament did however prophecy about John the Baptist.

If Jesus were to be Baptized as a baby, John would himself only be about 6 months old! How could he then baptize Jesus? Prophecy would not have been fulfilled!

Abraham was commanded by God to circumcise babies when they were 8 days old.
If God told Abraham to do this, then why was Abraham circumcised when he was an adult? Because circumcision had not yet been instituted when Abraham was a baby--the same as with baptism and Jesus.

The Bible commands us to go and make disciples of ALL nations.

Acts 2:38 "38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off�for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Psalm 8:2a "2 From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise "
praise does not come from unbelievers.

Luke 18:15 "15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Not baptizing babies is hindering them

Acts 11:14 "14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved."

As you know families were very large back then and often times people lived with in-laws, grandparents etc. The word household included even servants and their families.

Acts 16:15 "15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us."

Acts 16:31 "31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved�you and your household."

Acts 16:34 "34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God�he and his whole family."

Acts 18:8 "8Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized."

NO where in any of these verses does it say: "except infants", or "all those over age 8"

THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 08:48 PM

No where in those verses does it say infant.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />First, there is no record of Baptism in the Old Testament.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe not, but there is Historical evidence of Pre-Messianic baptism. Moreover I would claim that John Baptizing before Christ is evidence enough that the practice existed prior to Jesus. John was baptizing a plenty before he Baptized Jesus. How else did he get the name "John the Baptist"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Bible commands us to go and make disciples of ALL nations.
<hr /></blockquote>I'm pretty sure God did not intend us to do this without their consent.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Acts 2:38 "38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off�for all whom the Lord our God will call." <hr /></blockquote>Interesting that Peter was actually talking to Adults and 2:37 says "Men and bretheren, what shall we do?" not kids. But is it for their Children - Yes! but only by choice. You talk about compulsion not being part of the Gospel, what could be a more offensive form of compulsion that forcing babies into a covenant wherein they have no say?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Psalm 8:2a "2 From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise "
praise does not come from unbelievers.<hr /></blockquote>you don't have to be baptized to be a believer. in fact most verses say "Baptize those that believe" - Belief comes first. Children can believe.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Luke 18:15 "15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."<hr /></blockquote>I'll say the same to this that I've always said. If the Baby opens his mouth and says "Baptize me!" Then by all means, do it. If you come to the church and set the baby in the doorway and if the baby manages to make it all the way up to the Pastor by himself and says "Baptize Me!" then by all means baptize away.

Not hindering a child is not the same as facilitating. BIG DIFFERENCE.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Acts 11:14 "14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved."

As you know families were very large back then and often times people lived with in-laws, grandparents etc. The word household included even servants and their families.

Acts 16:15 "15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us."

Acts 16:31 "31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved�you and your household."

Acts 16:34 "34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God�he and his whole family."

Acts 18:8 "8Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized."<hr /></blockquote>Not even in the absolutely loosest sense can these verses be construed to be commanding us to baptize infants.

You didn't respond to why the Lutheran Church follows a practice that originated with an AntiChrist and not in the Bible. I'd be curious to hear why.

It remains that there is no Biblical evidence of infant baptism and there is no Historical evidence that infant baptism was the accepted practices prior to Pope Augustine.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 08:53 PM

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 09:17 PM

Nabster

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Echo, where is your call to purity?<hr /></blockquote>Nabster, where is your call to purity? The Bible is the pure word of God! Clearly I have showed you that having a drink is okay. It is biblical.
You are adding to the word of God and commanding us to do somthing that God says is okay to do!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />what do YOU say about, "avoid the appearnace of evil....or your testimony being weakened when a non- believer stumbles over YOUR drinking casually.<hr /></blockquote>I did answer this already, you need to slow down when you read my posts. I said that if I thought it were bothering someones conscience I would refrain completely in front of that person. I did explain this already.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To have elders in the church partake of anything considered and perceived as sinful in nature is just wrong. <hr /></blockquote>Again, your Church deems it sinful, not God.
Sex is percieved as sinful, do you refrain? Don't answer. I know the answer.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The bible also says God made every HERB. Are you gonna tell me it is okay for Christians to take a hit of marijuana, not get high, just in moderation. <hr /></blockquote>One toke alters your mind to the same extent as having too much to drink. So no.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And for you to tell me casual drinking doesnt lead to the occasional drunk is ridiculous<hr /></blockquote>Not true at all.

Ecc 9:7 "7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do."

Psalm 14:15 "14 He(God) makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate�
bringing forth food from the earth: 15 wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart."

Wine is healthy in small doses, very good for the heart! Everything God approves of is good for us in moderation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />clearly you drink, or you would not defend your position as such. am i right? [/quote

It is the freedom in Christ that we have that I am defending. I actually could care less if I drink or not. I probably have 2-3 drinks per year!

[quote]It says baptise infants into salvation, because we have no choice in the matter <hr /></blockquote>Isn't it nice to know that they are safe in God's family right from birth and then when they are grown, they can choose to leave if they want to?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />it is says grace covers every sin now and in the future and we dont have to ask for it, because it has already been done. <hr /></blockquote>That is not what I said. Did you read what I said? I said that we are forgiven for all our sins, past, present and future. This is the righteousness that comes by faith, don't you have that too? Naturally those who are forgiven repent and continue to ask for forgiveness. Did you not read this when I posted it all before?
Could you go and read it whereever I posted it because I can't remember where we discussed that and I am spending way too much time on my computer as it is. If you can't find it, let me know and I will try to repeat it all again for you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />it says the old covenant and the ten commandments and mosaic law are completely replaced.<hr /></blockquote>Replaced by grace. The ten commandments were nailed to the cross. We are free to serve and love God because we "WANT" to, not because we "HAVE" to. Those who don't "WANT" to aren't really saved!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It says if it is in the Bible literally do it, it says if it isnt dont....<hr /></blockquote>not exactly, the Bible has principles and it applies to all areas of life.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you have never addressed scripture about the Holy Spirit and you have never addressed scripture about baptism of the holy spirit. i guess because of controversy your church hasnt taught you about that yet.<hr /></blockquote>I told you that I have this yet to learn. How can I talk about somthing I have not really researched for myself yet???

I AM DONE I THINK

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 09:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sex is percieved as sinful, do you refrain? Don't answer. I know the answer.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't percieve sex as sinful. Sex outside of marriage, yes, but sex in and of itself is not sinful. This is more Catholic hangover into Lutheranism.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 09:42 PM

Joel, take a day off from work. I have lots to do LOL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Maybe not, but there is Historical evidence of Pre-Messianic baptism. Moreover I would claim that John Baptizing before Christ is evidence enough that the practice existed prior to Jesus. John was baptizing a plenty before he Baptized Jesus. How else did he get the name "John the Baptist"<hr /></blockquote>Baptism is no where recorded in the BIble (OT).
We go by the Bible alone.

John was appointed to Baptize Jesus by God in the OT prophecies and in God's timing.
You missed the whole point I was trying to make, we were talking about Jesus should have been baptized as an infant. Clearly John could not baptize Jesus as an infant when he himself was only 6 months old.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible commands us to go and make disciples of ALL nations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm pretty sure God did not intend us to do this without their consent.<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />what could be a more offensive form of compulsion that forcing babies into a covenant wherein they have no say?<hr /></blockquote>You have to read the Bible Joel. Clearly it says that we are dead in transgressions and sin, Dead men can't make a choice! Clearly the Bible says that before we believe, we hate God and are his enemies. Clearly the Bible says that our hearts are evil from youth. How can we choose God? If we even add our "choice" to salvation, God does not get all the glory, does he. But the Bible teaches to God be ALL THE GLORY.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But is it for their Children - Yes! but only by choice. <hr /></blockquote>There is no choice in those verses.
Perhaps you are confused by what I am saying.
I can be saved by faith. This is when my free will kicks in, and I can immediately reject the faith and go.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you don't have to be baptized to be a believer. in fact most verses say "Baptize those that believe" - Belief comes first. Children can believe.<hr /></blockquote>I agree that you don't have to be baptized to be a believer! But this verse shows that BABIES can BELIEVE! But babies can only have their sins washed away in Baptism. Babies only become part of God's family when they are Baptized.

Hold on, not done, pressed the wrong button.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 09:51 PM

I've got to say something here, and I'm pretty sure it will come across poorly.

For weeks, we've been discussing this that and the other about religion. You know what I've come to think of WELS?

Matthew 23:24
<blockquote>quote:<hr />[Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. <hr /></blockquote>Infant baptism = camel
No choice = camel
No spiritual gifts necessary = camel

gnats = the exact process to the smallest detail regarding salvation
gnats = whether or not we can pray for knowledge and wisdom that we lack

I say this in the sincerest way possible, but Echo, your approach is so much straining at gnats and you seem to be ignoring the weightier matters - Faith in Christ, Loving Christ and keeping his commandments.

This is what I think of Christianity, they strain at the gnats they percieve in Mormonism and miss out on all the good that can be accomplished by working together. It just seems that WELS, and by extension Echo, is more guilty of this than others I've encountered.

Here's the simple way I look at religion, maybe it's naive. If a church cannot actually make the lives of its members better in the now and is unable to persuade the bulk of its congregants to live Christian lives, then what is the point? Salvation? I doubt it. If a religion can't save from misery and wickedness in the now, I doubt it's ability to achieve such in the eternities.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 09:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You didn't respond to why the Lutheran Church follows a practice that originated with an AntiChrist and not in the Bible. I'd be curious to hear why.<hr /></blockquote>Because it is biblical. You do not understand the grace of God and that is why you cannot comprehend infant Baptism.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Not even in the absolutely loosest sense can these verses be construed to be commanding us to baptize infants.<hr /></blockquote>Who does God put in charge of the children until they are old enough to care for themselves? The parents. He commands them to baptize thier families.

I find it hard to believe that the Catholic Church which once held to the true doctrine of God would change the mode of baptism. That would be too obvious to all people.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 09:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Uh, yes it is. On the one hand you are telling me it is impossible for me to choose because it is God that is doing the choosing, then on the other hand you tell me to decide for Jesus. <hr /></blockquote>No it is not, go back and read what I wrote.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We go by the Bible alone.<hr /></blockquote>You're the one who said us Mormons should include maps to add legitimacy. What is a map other than outside historical record?
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Clearly John could not baptize Jesus as an infant when he himself was only 6 months old.<hr /></blockquote>then neither could Jesus pray to have the truth revealed to him as he was the truth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You have to read the Bible Joel. <hr /></blockquote>I have. Over a dozen times. Cover to Cover. In three different languages. None of them have anything to justify the practice of infant baptism.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I can be saved by faith. This is when my free will kicks in, and I can immediately reject the faith and go.<hr /></blockquote>that makes no sense whatsoever. How can you have faith in Christ if you don't have free-will in the first place?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />that BABIES can BELIEVE!<hr /></blockquote>moot point - Psalms is in the OT and according to you there was no baptism. So the use of the scripture is invalid.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But babies can only have their sins washed away in Baptism. Babies only become part of God's family when they are Baptized.<hr /></blockquote>You see infant baptism is a hangover of the false Catholic doctrine of Original sin. That because of Adam, we are all born in sin. That's why sex is percieved as bad - when in reality it is a holy act of creation to be undertaken only within the marriage covenant.

We are not born with a black spot on our souls. We are not responsible to be baptized to wash away a mistake made by Adam and Eve. If God required that of us he would not be just. We are responsible for our own sins. No one elses.

It is absolutely impossible to sin as a baby. I can't even believe that a Mother can look at any newborn from the womb and say to herself "There is a devlish creation, created in evil and destined to Hell unless it is baptized."

Infant baptism isn't only a false doctrine, it stems from the doctrine of self-loathing that is rampant throughout Catholicism. Why put up with it when Luther claims the Catholic church spiritually bankrupt?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:03 PM

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:08 PM

To say that the word "Household" when used in the scriptures must always include infants is a grandiose assumption without firsthand knowledge of that actual household referred to.

[quoteI find it hard to believe that the Catholic Church which once held to the true doctrine of God would change the mode of baptism. That would be too obvious to all people.[/quote] Well, I'm really sorry about this, but the Historical evidence overwhelmingly and conclusively proves this to be the case. There are letters, papal decrees, and much documentation and debate. It's a fact. Why does a protestant find it hard to believe that the Catholic church is wrong in some areas and not in others. Luther found them completely devoid of any spiritual authority. The foundation of your church is that Catholicism abandoned the truth and Isaiah prophesied it would happen. Isaiah 24:5 <blockquote>quote:<hr />...they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.<hr /></blockquote>Infant baptism is simply not a Biblical practice. Historical record shows that it was not practiced for centuries after the Apostles and gained prominence under Augustine. Not only can it not be justified from Biblical evidence, but History aside from the Bible shows that it was not the original practice.

In fact, "Baptism for the Dead" has a much stronger basis in the Bible and History than does "infant baptism" and I'm certain you reject that principle.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:10 PM

Nab actually said that doing anything that would become a stumbling block of faith for other Christians or potential Christians is sinful and stated that Drinking can obviously become such a stumbling block. As for sex being a stumbling block, usually most folks do that in private, if it's a public thing at WELS then maybe it could be a stumbling block but somehow I doubt there's a lot of public sex in any Christian worship or fellowship environment.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You're the one who said us Mormons should include maps to add legitimacy. What is a map other than outside historical record?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, it adds validity to what IS IN THE BIBLE. The BOM carries no such validity.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly John could not baptize Jesus as an infant when he himself was only 6 months old.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

then neither could Jesus pray to have the truth revealed to him as he was the truth.<hr /></blockquote>Luke 2:52 "And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

Jesus had to grow in wisdom, from the already revealled word. Even Mormons agree with this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />that makes no sense whatsoever. How can you have faith in Christ if you don't have free-will in the first place?<hr /></blockquote>It is a gift of God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We are not born with a black spot on our souls. We are not responsible to be baptized to wash away a mistake made by Adam and Eve. If God required that of us he would not be just. We are responsible for our own sins. No one elses.<hr /></blockquote>I disagree but this is a topic for a later date, the discussions we are already having keep me busy for most of the day, as is.
Wait till other discussions are done.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is absolutely impossible to sin as a baby.<hr /></blockquote>Psalm 51 :5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:30 PM

.

Joel, you post in here every day on your employers time. Don't you know that it is stealing?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To say that the word "Household" when used in the scriptures must always include infants is a grandiose assumption without firsthand knowledge of that actual household referred to.<hr /></blockquote>False witness against thy neighbor

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Nab actually said that doing anything that would become a stumbling block of faith for other Christians or potential Christians <hr /></blockquote>I get your point. Which leads me to another point

Not Baptising babies is putting a stumbling block in their way.

You will never understand infant Baptism until you understand the grace of God.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes, it adds validity to what IS IN THE BIBLE.<hr /></blockquote>So you'll only accept historical fact so far as it supports your viewpoint but not when it proves you wrong? That's an interesting approach.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Jesus had to grow in wisdom, from the already revealled word. Even Mormons agree with this.<hr /></blockquote>There is so little detail on Jesus childhood and adolescence that it is difficult to say whether or not we agree. Personally (this is not Mormonism speaking here) I've often wondered if Jesus, as the Son of God wasn't afforded some extra-special tutoring in the Bible from the actual authors.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It is a gift of God.<hr /></blockquote>If faith can only be bestowed as a gift from God, then that makes God a respecter of persons. Why hasn't that gift been given to all? Why isn't everyone a Christian then? Or at least why doesn't everyone start off as a Christian before rejecting it? It makes no sense. I'm not saying faith isn't a gift from God, I'm just saying your conception of how faith is bestowed makes God a respecter of persons.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are not born with a black spot on our souls. We are not responsible to be baptized to wash away a mistake made by Adam and Eve. If God required that of us he would not be just. We are responsible for our own sins. No one elses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree but this is a topic for a later date, the discussions we are already having keep me busy for most of the day, as is.
Wait till other discussions are done.<hr /></blockquote>it's the same topic actually. If we are responsible for the sins of Adam, then you may have a point and baptism of infants would be a nice solution to absolve us of Adam's sin. We're not responsible for his sin, so you don't have a point.

Psalms 51:5
The version of the Bible you are using to get that translation is in the minority as placing that sin upon David (the author of the Psalm) Most Bibles say the following:

NKJV <blockquote>quote:<hr />Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. <hr /></blockquote>This makes his mother out to be the sinner NOT DAVID

NASB <blockquote>quote:<hr />Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. <hr /></blockquote>same

RSV <blockquote>quote:<hr />Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
<hr /></blockquote>same

Webster <blockquote>quote:<hr />Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.<hr /></blockquote>same
Young <blockquote>quote:<hr />Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.<hr /></blockquote>same
Darby <blockquote>quote:<hr />Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me.<hr /></blockquote>same
ASV <blockquote>quote:<hr />Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.<hr /></blockquote>same
HNV <blockquote>quote:<hr />Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin my mother conceived me.
<hr /></blockquote>same
The only version I could find with your translation was the New Living Translation <blockquote>quote:<hr />For I was born a sinner--

yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.<hr /></blockquote>Every other translation carries a distinctly different meaning from the one you used. With that being the case, I reject the translation you are using as inaccurate.

I'll have to remember this example as it is a good case for showing how different people with different agendas manipulate the Bible through translation and re-translation to get a meaning that is favorable to their point of view. This verse appears to have been wildly distorted in your bible.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Joel, you post in here every day on your employers time. Don't you know that it is stealing?<hr /></blockquote>That's another big assumption made about me. I appreciate that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Not Baptising babies is putting a stumbling block in their way.<hr /></blockquote>Funny, I see it the other way around. If I baptized my kid and he resented me for taking that choice away from him when he was older, I could very well be the stumbling block that makes him leave the faith.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 10:53 PM

and i suppose NOT DRINKING IS A STUMBLING BLOCK TOO? BAD EXAMPLE. BAPTISE YOUR OWN IF YOU WILL, BUT IF I CHOOSE NOT TO BAPTISE MY OWN IT IS NOT A STUMBLING TO ANYONE ELSE. COME ON. TRY AGAIN.I understand God's grace fully. i live under it. But i asked for salvation, believe me i wasnt saved before i did, even had i been baptised, i would have gone to a devil's hell.
I fully understand it is the work of the Holy Spirit prompting us to come to God, I believe God does this to all mankind...however to say i have no choice in responding to the beckoning is where i get hung up. The scriptures you cite do not override the one's i have cited.

FOR THE SAKE OF DISCUSSION...
i am baptised as an infant at age 20 i die i have neither confirmed or denied god... am i going to heaven or hell?
do lutherans in fact go through confirmation at some point, to "seal salvation" which is given when baptised?
at what point do i become saved by repenting and calling Jesus into my heart within wels and lutheran doctrine...just an example is what i am looking for.

here is how i see it so far, correct me if i am wrong...
i am baptised at birth into salvation.
hence i am saved and going to heaven as long as i never renounce Jesus before death.
becasue once saved always saved, i am going to heaven unless i renounce jesus before death...even if i live in complete contradiction to the obedience set forth in the scriptures. ie break commandments, fornicate, adultery, steal lie cheat, gossip, etc. i do not spread the gospel and even cast doubt on some of the word of God,, but never verbally say i am not going to live for God....how in te world is God going to say well done good and faithful servant and let me enter the kingdom of heaven? Grace?
i really dont get it from the WELS perspective.
it is as different to me doctrinally as catholic is to baptist.
what do i do to receive salvation and the reward of heaven(not works) but how do i receive salvation initially? from the wels belief that is...

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/08/05 11:09 PM

Nabster

I am not sure where you are stuck, so permit me to see where you are at.

Do you beleive faith comes from hearing the gospel?

Do you believe faith is a gift?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/09/05 12:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So you'll only accept historical fact so far as it supports your viewpoint but not when it proves you wrong? That's an interesting approach.<hr /></blockquote>No, you have missed the whole point, Baptism was not mentioned at all in the old testament. So it could of been a witch's baptism! You miss the point.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If faith can only be bestowed as a gift from God, then that makes God a respecter of persons. Why hasn't that gift been given to all?<hr /></blockquote>It is offered to all through the gospel.
Some people's hearts are so hard, they don't listen. Just look how intently Jesus wanted the Jews to hear his message, but thier hearts were hard.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If we are responsible for the sins of Adam, then you may have a point and baptism of infants would be a nice solution to absolve us of Adam's sin. <hr /></blockquote>Romans 5:12-19 " 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned� 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

Condemnation to ALL MEN means we are all condemned to Hell because of Adam's sin.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Every other translation carries a distinctly different meaning from the one you used. With that being the case, I reject the translation you are using as inaccurate.<hr /></blockquote>First. There is no account in the Bible that David was born out of wedlock.
Second, you have failed to read the psalm in order to understand what it is saying. When we read the Psalm it becomes ever clear what David meant.
David is asking God for mercy because he commited adultry with Bathsheba. He talks about his sin, admits what he did is evil in God's sight...then he says surely I was sinful at birth sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Meaning just that.
If he were saying that he was born to a mother who sinned, the verse makes no sense. What does being born to a mother who sinned have to do with David's sin? He can't blame his adulterous affair on a mother who had an adulterous affair.
That wouldn't go over with God because we can't blame our sins on others.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/09/05 04:28 AM

faith cometh by the hearing of the word of God. When I heard it many times i rejected it. the word that is. when i did receieve it , it was my choice to do so. God didnt make me nor did anyone else. I chose to accept the conviction of sin that the spirit brought me. and repent and be cleansed of my sin. every thing from God is a gift. I guess. but i do have a choice in receiving it. i can refuse it and/or receive it. God calls everyone, not evryone accepts, so there is choice.
I have looked at predestination in the past ...it didnt jive then and doesnt jive now.with me. scriptural principles of choice are throughout the bible and it is clear to me.

please answer my scenario above.
it will help me understand.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/09/05 04:34 AM

Tell me more about what exactly happened? give details, even about the times you rejected it.
I think it will be easier for me to explain if you do this. If you are uncomfortable about sharing all the details, perhaps PM me?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/09/05 05:12 AM

it is a hypothetical ...not me.
answer as best you can with simple details of above.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/09/05 04:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So it could of been a witch's baptism! You miss the point.
<hr /></blockquote>No, you're uninformed. These were ritual Jewish washings under the law as a symbol of entering a covenant. Moreover, John baptized people unto repentence and the Bible seems to indicate that he was busy a baptizing before Jesus came to be baptized.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Condemnation to ALL MEN means we are all condemned to Hell because of Adam's sin.
<hr /></blockquote>Condemnation, doesn't necessarily mean to Hell. I do agree that because of Adam's transgression we are separated from God until Redeemed in Christ's atonement and we are condemned to die physically as well. That is not the same as saying we are all jointly responsible for Adam's sin.

Psalm 51, I read the psalm. I'm not an idiot. My point was that your version of the Bible is distinctly different from 10 others. None of the others can possibly be interpreted to mean what your version says. So I think the version you are using is in error and generally unreliable. Your misinterpretation of Psalm 51 as meaning either David or his Mother sinned comes from an incomplete understanding of the Law of Moses.

Under the law a woman who has her period is deemed unclean and must be purified. The same is true of a woman who is pregnant and endures childbirth. For David, a man who lived under the law of Moses, to say he was conceived in sin and born under sin, is not a stretch when applied to his mother, even if he was conceived and born in wedlock which is what the bible seemed to indicate. At Birth his mother would have been deemed unclean and would have needed to undergo a period of purification to be clean again.

Main point however, is that your translation of the Bible is not accurate and you might want to ask for a new one for Christmas.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/09/05 07:28 PM

Nabster

<blockquote>quote:<hr />when i did receieve it , it was my choice to do so.<hr /></blockquote>Think about it. Who would be convicted of sin, unless they believed already that God existed. The point I am making is that faith has to exist in order for you to be convicted. If faith exists. You are saved already. faith alone saves and faith is what gives us the ability to makes the choice. But it is not the choice that saved us, it is the faith we had that led us to make a choice. Do you see what I am saying? Faith alone saves. You had faith "before" you made that choice.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/09/05 07:32 PM

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/09/05 07:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />No, you're uninformed. These were ritual Jewish washings under the law as a symbol of entering a covenant. Moreover, John baptized people unto repentence and the Bible seems to indicate that he was busy a baptizing before Jesus came to be baptized.<hr /></blockquote>I am uniformed. But what I mean is that it is not in the Bible, so it could be heresy, it could be true, but it could be heresy. I like to stick to the facts in the Bible is what I meant.

I agree that John baptized before he baptized Jesus. But I am just saying that it only comes along in the NT. That's all I am saying.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Psalm 51, I read the psalm. I'm not an idiot<hr /></blockquote>Joel, I apologize for you misunderstanding what I said or my intent at least. I do not think you are an idiot.

Remind me if I forget to answer the rest of this post of yours. I have to take my son to the hospital for some tests and I don't have time to answer now.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 12:04 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Echo:
Nabster

<blockquote>quote:<hr />when i did receieve it , it was my choice to do so.<hr /></blockquote>Think about it. Who would be convicted of sin, unless they believed already that God existed. The point I am making is that faith has to exist in order for you to be convicted. If faith exists. You are saved already. faith alone saves and faith is what gives us the ability to makes the choice. But it is not the choice that saved us, it is the faith we had that led us to make a choice. Do you see what I am saying? Faith alone saves. You had faith "before" you made that choice. <hr /></blockquote>even the demons believe GOd exists...echo.
faith is diffeerent than just believing. I knew God was and I knew what i was taught as a young boy and teen. I made a choice to not receive for some time and I was NOT saved just because I believed God existed. I then later made the choice to accept His plan.

Please answer my question...you are dodging it.
i will refresh you.
baptised as an infant...later never had confirmation or decision for or against christ. Heaven or hell...where will I go if die with these circumstances?
Do WELS have a confirmation experience to seal infant baptism and salvation per se?
i wait with anticipation...

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 12:35 AM

Sorry Nabster, I wasn't dodging your question, I forgot it somehow, sorry. I have no memory.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />faith is different than just believing. I knew God was and I knew what i was taught as a young boy and teen. I made a choice to not receive for some time and I was NOT saved just because I believed God existed. I then later made the choice to accept His plan.<hr /></blockquote>I agree that there is faith and there is saving faith. You always can reject the gospel, before and after. You just cannot accept the gospel without first hearing it, right? So when you hear it, that enables you to accept it, it is your "faith" that enables you to accept it, is what I am saying. You are saved by faith alone, correct? So the "choice" flows out of that faith you already have. You can always reject either before or after.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />baptized as an infant...later never had confirmation or decision for or against Christ. Heaven or hell...where will I go if die with these circumstances?<hr /></blockquote>Well, all the kids go through confirmation in our Church at around 13 yrs old. If one rejected that, then they have made their choice to reject God. Not that they must go to confirmation, but confirmation is where they learn all the essential truths about God. They are not forced to remain in God's family. You have to remember that a Child who was baptized has saving faith and is able to choose to remain or go. God never forces anyone. Rejection of God can lead to losing one's salvation.

My question is to you, how can someone "choose" something they no nothing about? They can't

My next question is What is the gospel mean to you? You said you accepted God's plan, tell me your understanding of his plan? You sound like a Mormon talking about a plan. It is not a plan, it is what God has done for us. Explain what you mean...explain what the gospel is.

So yes, we confirm the kids but it doesn't seal their salvation, Jesus sealed thier salvation in Baptism. They are free to go and depart from God whenever they choose.

Making a choice that says we have gained salvation because we chose God, is faith and works. God must get all the glory. A choice that seals our salvation gives both God and Man the glory and that is unbiblical.
Did I answer all your questions?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 01:54 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Echo:
Sorry Nabster, I wasn't dodging your question, I forgot it somehow, sorry. I have no memory.

I agree that there is faith and there is saving faith. You always can reject the gospel, before and after. You just cannot accept the gospel without first hearing it, right?
<hr /></blockquote>YOU CANNOT BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE WITHOUT HEARING ANYTHING.the info causes the choice to be made.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
So when you hear it, that enables you to accept it, it is your "faith" that enables you to accept it, is what I am saying. You are saved by faith alone, correct? So the "choice" flows out of that faith you already have.<hr /></blockquote>as mentioned above..faith happens after i hear the info not before..it is impossible to believe in something i have never heard of. as it is impossible to render opinion of something i have never heard of either.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
You can always reject either before or after.
this is the part we agree on.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />baptized as an infant...later never had confirmation or decision for or against Christ. Heaven or hell...where will I go if die with these circumstances?<hr /></blockquote>Well, all the kids go through confirmation in our Church at around 13 yrs old. If one rejected that, then they have made their choice to reject God. Not that they must go to confirmation, but confirmation is where they learn all the essential truths about God. They are not forced to remain in God's family. You have to remember that a Child who was baptized has saving faith
<hr /></blockquote>you said faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word....it is biblical. an infant neither hears or understnads the gospel . therefor no saving faith for the child....they are not yet accountable so really, saving faith, is not yet required of them for salvation. god's grace covers their innocence. <blockquote>quote:<hr />
and is able to choose to remain or go. God never forces anyone. Rejection of God can lead to losing one's salvation.
<hr /></blockquote>you do believe one can lose salvation then? <blockquote>quote:<hr />
My question is to you, how can someone "choose" something they no nothing about? They can't
<hr /></blockquote>correct...they cannot. AFTER hearing the gospel faith can save ...for now they have heard and MUST make a choice, as they have become accountable to God. <blockquote>quote:<hr />
My next question is What is the gospel mean to you? You said you accepted God's plan, tell me your understanding of his plan? You sound like a Mormon talking about a plan. It is not a plan, it is what God has done for us. Explain what you mean...explain what the gospel is.
<hr /></blockquote>hey hey hey, i aint no Mormon.....

you said , "it is what GOd has done for us"...this is GODS PLAN...meaning of God and he planned it.

I do not believe in works for salvation at all. I must receive it and accept it...it is a gift. I strive to be a vessel that God can use and work through to spread the Gospel of Christ. I try to live a clean and holy life full of faith in order to please Jesus. He calls us to be not of this world and asks us to shun away from things we know are sinful. I fail, but I do try. Has nothing to do with my salvation, just a desire to be Christlike in my actions and words and habits and character. I want people to know me as a man of integrity and unshakeable faith in Jesus.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
So yes, we confirm the kids but it doesn't seal their salvation, Jesus sealed thier salvation in Baptism. They are free to go and depart from God whenever they choose.

Making a choice that says we have gained salvation because we chose God, is faith and works. <hr /></blockquote>nonsense...your definition of works is strange to me. every day we make a choice to serve God or not serve God. this is not works. this is a decision of our heart....James says SHOW me your faith by your WORKS. an internal heart-choice is not a visible thing. it just isnt "works" as defined. <blockquote>quote:<hr />
God must get all the glory. A choice that seals our salvation gives both God and Man the glory and that is unbiblical.<hr /></blockquote>you are losin me here. my choosing to serve God and be saved....DOES NOT GIVE ME ANY GLORY....IF ANYTHING REQUIRES ULTIMATE HUMILITY AND COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF HOW FILTHY(NO GLORY HERE) I AM AND ONLY GOD(WHO GETS THE GLORY) IS ABLE TO SAVE ME.Echo you make it sound like my choosing God for salvation is something I have done and should be proud(like Pride) of. Withgout faith it is impossible to please God....the angels rejoice when a single sould comes to salvation...God is pleased when we come to salvation...where is His pleasure in infant baptism...no choice no decision no personal faith at all.
Did I answer all your questions?

[/QUOTE]
you have created more my friend....this is very trivial in nature to me. if, in the end we believe in the same Jesus and the same saving grace and the same Heaven and hell and the Bible as inerrant and all that, and disagree on things such as premillenial, or pretrib or post trib, or music in church or no music in church, or predestination, it does not bother me....I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE, I HOPE IT IS TRUE...WE ARE ALL VINES IN THE SAME VINEYARD.EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS THAT IS....I AM STILL UNDECIDED REGARDING MORMONS, CATHOLICISM IN MANY RESPECTS, THE ARIAN NATION AND OF COURSE THE HALE BOP COMET CLAN....SORRY . JUST KIDDIN NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE. ESPECIALLY YOU BUNCH OF TEXAS HILLBILLIES WHO READ THIS BUT WONT CHIME IN...

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 02:15 AM

jeremiah 29:11-14
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Amos 3:7
Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.
What is God's plan for your life....Are you active in a ministry in or outside of the walls of the church?
nabster

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 03:09 AM

Joel,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />That is not the same as saying we are all jointly responsible for Adam's sin. <hr /></blockquote>The fact that we have to die physically is proof we are still responsible for Adam's sin. Death was the punishment for Adam's sin.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Under the law a woman who has her period is deemed unclean and must be purified<hr /></blockquote>But even from all your other translations, it says "concieved in" A women was not unclean when she got pregnant, only when she gave birth.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 04:06 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />the info causes the choice to be made.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly my point! the info in this case is the gospel which brings us to faith and gives us a new heart, the new man. It is the new man that chooses. But if you are a new man, you are already saved...don't you see?

Acts 16:14 "One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

Lydia did not make a "choice" she can get credit for, the LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND TO THE MESSAGE.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />as mentioned above..faith happens after i hear the info not before..it is impossible to believe in something i have never heard of. as it is impossible to render opinion of something i have never heard of either.<hr /></blockquote>I agree! faith is was enables you to make a choice! But you are already saved by the faith! So the choice you made was to remain in it. Salvation is God's alone. It is finished Jesus said.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />as mentioned above..faith happens after i hear the info not before..it is impossible to believe in something i have never heard of. as it is impossible to render opinion of something i have never heard of either.<hr /></blockquote>Do you believe the "choice" was the new man or the old?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you said faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word....it is biblical. an infant neither hears or understnads the gospel . therefor no saving faith for the child....they are not yet accountable so really, saving faith, is not yet required of them for salvation. god's grace covers their innocence. <hr /></blockquote>God creates faith in their hearts in Baptism
Children are not innocent Psalm 51:5 " Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

Let me ask you this: If your Children are not Baptized until they can choose, then they are not saved when they die as children, because they have not chosen yet.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you do believe one can lose salvation then? <hr /></blockquote>yes

<blockquote>quote:<hr />correct...they cannot. AFTER hearing the gospel faith can save ...for now they have heard and MUST make a choice, as they have become accountable to God. <hr /></blockquote>Again, babies would then go to hell because according to you, they cannot make a choice, if you believe they still do, then your argument against infant Baptism falls apart.

In Baptism we are made to be members of God's family and we are forgiven of our sins. If an infant is not Baptized, they are not yet part of God's family.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you are losin me here. my choosing to serve God and be saved....DOES NOT GIVE ME ANY GLORY<hr /></blockquote>I am not talking about serving God.
But choosing to be saved gives one the opportunity to boast perhaps. " I am going to heaven because "I" chose God" rather than "I am going to heaven because "god" chose me" Anything with "I" in it is boasting and gives me glory. Anything with "god" in it is giving all the glory to God.
It is okay to choose, it just does not contribute to your salvation. It does not complete the process. The work Jesus did is finished.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />meaning of God and he planned it.

<hr /></blockquote>I got a headache from that slap by the way, feels like it could last for a week, you are in big trouble mister!!!

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 04:20 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Are you active in a ministry in or outside of the walls of the church?<hr /></blockquote>Yes I am out trying to reach Mormons with the gospel. I also answer Mormon emails for a website, trying to reach them with the gospel as well.

I am a mother and wife, which is my most important ministry. Most of my family and friends are not believers, including my husband.
So I am working on them.

I volunteer as often as I can at Church.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 05:31 AM

Nabster
Just a couple more things I want to add to my second post above post to you.

Nothing in scripture says to Baptize at a certain age. The Bible uses words like "ALL NATIONS" and "this promise is for you and your children"

Look at this passage: 2 Timothy 3:15 "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Baptism replaces circumcision:

Collosians 2:11-12 "11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."

IF BABIES CAN"T BELIEVE, THEY DON'T GO TO HEAVEN

Ephesians 2:8-9 "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God� 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

One Extraordinary case in point in which the Holy Spirit worked faith in a child BEFORE his birth was John the Baptist!!! Luke 1:41-44

Babies must be born again in Baptism.
John 3:7 "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again"

If Children have to choose wether to except the gospel, and babies cannot believe, then ALL babies who die go to Hell.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 01:46 PM

as i stated above...God's grace grace covers the innnonce of a child, who is not yet held accountable, because he has not heard the gospel.
You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.
New Living Translation � 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NKJV - 2Ti 3:15 - and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
New King James Version � 1982 Thomas Nelson

NASB - 2Ti 3:15 - and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
New American Standard Bible � 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - 2Ti 3:15 - and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Revised Standard Version � 1947, 1952.

Webster - 2Ti 3:15 - And that from a child thou hast known the sacred scriptures, which are able to make thee wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

this is clearly in reference to a child being taught and WISDOM causes faith for salvation.

the scripture about "to your children" speaks of generations of offspring not literal infants.

Wer are talking semantics here...I firmly believe the Holy SPirit draws and calls all men to God and salvation, when the Gospel is heard . I even believe there is an inner seeking for God from people who have never heard of Jesus Christ or scripture or anything. I think this is why they "create" higher beings in their worship. Where we differ, is the fact that choice is ours to make either for or against God. I do agree we cannot choose jesus if we have not heard of him, and I do agree when we hear of him it is the Holy Spirit that bears witness of the truth of the Gospel. He prompts and tugs and pulls us to the truth by convicting us with the word. BUt we still have a decision to make for or against Jesus. We get no glory and it is not a "work" it is a choice to eithe serve God or not. I have given you ample scripture throughout to support choice. Furthermore as stated above God receives pleasure when we choose to do His will and not ours. When our faith says "lord I believe" he is pleased becasue this is ultimate faith.
Baptism no more saves me or makes me christian than being in a garage makes me a car...it is an outward act AFTER ONE IS SAVED. a symbolic showing of cleansing and a showing to the world that" i have been saved".I think it does something spiritual inside you to "strengthen" your decision.Adds faith so to speak. God looks at the inward man, an salvation will always be a matter of the heart. Not a physical action....or dare i call it a work....baptism, that is. Seems like more of a work than "choosing" to serve God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I agree! faith is was enables you to make a choice! But you are already saved by the faith! So the choice you made was to remain in it. Salvation is God's alone. It is finished Jesus said.
<hr /></blockquote>your logic here is just plain baffling.
you cant believe until you hear but when you hear you are already saved? "illogical captain kirk"
If you believe infant babies who are not baptised go to hell, then what about newborns who die following birth, stillborns, abortions, miscarriages and the such....your logic says they are in hell....you cant have it both ways echo.
My God does not call newborns hellbound, unless someone "chooses" to baptise them. What about children given into adoption never baptised or raised by faith, what about children in other countries where God is not the Biblical one? they goin to hell too? What the scripture says about one for salvation is the same for all. SALVATION IS ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY AND A DECISION OF THE HEART TO REJECT OR ACCEPT. NO ONE IS SAVED UNTIL THEY CHOOSE TO BE.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 02:07 PM

BTW, the choice was the old man. Immediatley replaced with the new man. ...spiritually speaking.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Jesus, said ,"Behold I make all things new." We are not before we are saved, it is in fact after.

Also, in support of the positino of the Heart for salvation...Ephesians(to the believers at Ephesus)

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them,

because of the blindness of their heart:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I am not talking about serving God.
But choosing to be saved gives one the opportunity to boast perhaps. " I am going to heaven because "I" chose God" rather than "I am going to heaven because "god" chose me" Anything with "I" in it is boasting and gives me glory. Anything with "god" in it is giving all the glory to God.
It is okay to choose, it just does not contribute to your salvation. It does not complete the process. The work Jesus did is finished.<hr /></blockquote>i think i see where you really coming from....
converstaion:
you: are you saved?
me: yes. I have chosen to serve God and go to heaven.

this example is boastful somewhat.

here is how i iwould respond however in that conversatino...
you ; are you saved?
me: yes, He picked me up out of the miry clay and set my feet upon the rock. the Lord saved my wretched soul. i came to christ when i was 29 years old. he changed my life forever.
this is humilty in salvation. this is where i stand. i dont take credit for anything, i dont boast, but i did choose upon the prompting of the Holy Ghost to do so. I opened the door of my heart and accepted salvation. Salvation is a gift and therefor must be received. If you bring me gifts i never open and acknowledge, what good does that gift do ? You have given it, but i chose not to take it...i chose.

nabster

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 08:28 PM

Nabster
I have answers to all the points you made above.
We have to go back to square 1. And go one step at a time. Let's try to stay focused on one step at a time. (hard to do I know, but lets try)
There is too much information at once in our conversation. You misunderstand some things I am saying.

You believe that infants cannot believe.

Scripture says those who believe have eternal life, those who don't believe are condemned.

You simply cannot reconcile the two. By your point of view, all babies and children who die without faith, go to Hell.

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/10/05 08:32 PM

Well, going by the same reasoning that you condemn those that do not know or choose not to believe, yes they are in fact going to hell. Just like the rest fo the schmucks that jumped on the wrong boat.

Here's an idea: If you want to go off topic and talk about something else, simply create a topic. That's as easy as it gets. You don;t need to go off topic in a pre-existing one.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/11/05 12:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nabster:

If you believe infant babies who are not baptised go to hell, then what about newborns who die following birth, stillborns, abortions, miscarriages and the such....your logic says they are in hell....you cant have it both ways echo.
My God does not call newborns hellbound, unless someone "chooses" to baptise them.<hr /></blockquote>have you lost track? this is what i said.
not one single infant goes to hell echo. they are not accountable. IN YOUR VIEW BAPTISM SAVES THE INFANT< SO WITHOUT IT THEY ARE CONDEMNED.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/11/05 01:23 PM

Nabster

Yes, I have lost track and I have lost my mind too! That is my excuse and I am sticking with it! LOL

But your point was that infants must be able to choose salvation. Now,you are saying they don't need to choose, they are covered by grace.

The way I see it is that by Baptism infants are covered by grace and can leave or remain in God's family whenever they choose.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />IN YOUR VIEW BAPTISM SAVES THE INFANT< SO WITHOUT IT THEY ARE CONDEMNED.<hr /></blockquote>Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

John 3:3 "In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

That is what the Bible says

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 02:34 AM

my ponit is NOt tat infants must choose salvation...MY POINT IS THEY DO NOT HAVE TGO MAKE A CHOICE BECAUSE THEY ARE INCAPABLE. AND THEY ARE COVERED BY GRACE WITHOUR BAPTISM. THEY ARE INNOCENT AND UNACCOUNTABLE.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 03:28 AM

If they do not have to make a choice, why then not baptize them? No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Baptism is being born again.

Children are accountable. Did God keep the babies in the flood from drowning when his wrath came down on the wicked? No, they were included in the wicked! The Bible says that we are accountable for our sin even if we are unaware of it. It says that we are by nature children of wrath. God is not accountable to man, God is not obligated to save us. If Children and babies are going to Hell, It is not God's fault. Who is supposed to go and preach the news to the world? WE ARE. So it is our fault that babies and children go to hell.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 12:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Echo:
If they do not have to make a choice, why then not baptize them? No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Baptism is being born again.<hr /></blockquote>you have said continually in another thread that God sees the HEART in reference to sin....A baby/infant has a heart that is void of sin. sin is an action or a thought process that is wicked and against the Bible and the Word of God... an infant is INCAPABLE OF BOTH ACTION AND THOUGHT that is sinful.
By the way, your WELS doctrine is becoming more clear...Baptism saves , no one has a choice until after he is baptised, it is okay to drink a little even it if hurts your witness, the tithe is not relevant today, just give what your heart feels is right, Christ is Lord and MAster and saviour but not HEaler and physician,because you dont believe in divine healing and the works of the HOly Spirit in faith healing and dont believe in the Baptism of the HOly Spirit, even though Jesus is the one who does so. You probably dont believe in the gifts of the spirit other than pastor, evangelist.
You misinterpret some scriptures to mean "children" and "chosen" to support your doctrine but fail to see the simplicity of Act 16:30.. " and brought them out and said, "Men, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ..."
they are in fact baptised afterward and they chose for themselves salvation.the holy spirit prompted...they chose.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Children are accountable. Did God keep the babies in the flood from drowning when his wrath came down on the wicked? No, they were included in the wicked! The Bible says that we are accountable for our sin even if we are unaware of it.<hr /></blockquote>yes, babies were killed in the flood...and babies are killed today...but that doesnt mean accountable...they will not be in hell. they will be in heaven with god. and your verse about accountable even if unaware has nothing to do with those who dont have the capacity to understand sin...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
It says that we are by nature children of wrath. <hr /></blockquote>not literal children...ie people.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />God is not accountable to man, God is not obligated to save us. If Children and babies are going to Hell, It is not God's fault. Who is supposed to go and preach the news to the world? WE ARE. So it is our fault that babies and children go to hell. <hr /></blockquote>AND I SAY AGAIN THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HELL.THIS IS A DOCTRINE OF FEAR...."A PARENT SHOULD BAPTISE THEIR INFANTS SO THEY WONT GO TO HELL"....i think i see now why you do it.
HOW GUILTY A PARENT MUST FEEL IF THEY DO NOT BAPTISE THEIR CHILD BEFORE IT DIES. tHIS MAKES THEM REPSONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S SALVATION...GARBAGE ECHO.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 05:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I also answer Mormon emails for a website,<hr /></blockquote>I really, really, really want to know the web address for that website. Please tell me. Please don't respond to anything else until you've told me.

The Book of Mormon prophets have some things to say regarding infant baptism.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach�repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.<hr /></blockquote>As for the last time I participated in the thread. Echo claimed that death was the consequence of Adam's transgression and therefore we are all responsible for his sin. I disagree, death is only one part of the consequence of Adam's transgression and the fact that we all die is the limit of it's effect on us. Adam not only brought death into the world, but prior to partaking of the fruit, Adam walked and talked with God. Physically and literally on the earth. Adam's punishment was two part. He brought physical death into the world and spiritual death (meaning separation from God).

Again Echo, I really need to know what website it is you answer Mormon questions on.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 06:41 PM

NABSTER

There is not one passage in scripture that says that babies cannot sin. It says the opposite.

Psalm 51 :5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

Romans 5:12 �Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned��

Romans 3:23 �23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,�

1 Kings 8:46 �46 "When they sin against you�for there is no one who does not sin��

John 3:6 ��6Flesh gives birth to flesh��

Psalm 14 :3 �All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.�

Romans 3:10-12 �10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Ephesians 2:3 �3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.�

How can you argue against all these passages? We are BY NATURE objects of wrath, that means we are born that way! Nothing in scripture says that babies are � not� born sinful or that babies are �not� by nature objects of wrath. There are no exceptions noted in any of these passages for infants therefore it is all-inclusive.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> By the way, your WELS doctrine is becoming more clear...Baptism saves <hr /></blockquote>Faith in the gospel saves. Baptism "creates� faith in infants and �strengthens� faith in adults.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />, no one has a choice until after he is baptized,<hr /></blockquote>No one has a choice until he has already the gift of Salvation. The choice is not to choose Salvation. It is to choose to serve the Lord who has already saved them.
You cannot choose something that is already yours.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> it is okay to drink a little even it if hurts your witness<hr /></blockquote>That is not what I said. I said that we would refrain if it was a stumbling block to someone or if we thought it would hurt our witness in any way.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Christ is Lord and MAster and saviour but not HEaler and physician,because you dont believe in divine healing and the works of the HOly Spirit in faith healing and dont believe in the Baptism of the HOly Spirit, even though Jesus is the one who does so.<hr /></blockquote>This is unfair because I told you that I still must research this. Yet you keep bringing it up. I will tell you what I am thinking so far now though. Jesus IS my healer and physician; he has healed my heart by his love and given me eternal life! How much more healing do I need??? What is physical healing? I have spiritual and emotional healing! And though outwardly I am wasting away, yet inwardly I am being renewed day by day!(Paul). I don�t love God because he can do miracles and awe me with tongues, or some infilling of the Holy Spirit. I love God because he first loved me!
What is the focus of your Sunday service? Faith healing, tongues and infilling of the Holy Spirit? The focus of ours is Jesus Christ and him crucified!
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You misinterpret some scriptures to mean "children"<hr /></blockquote>.
Okay, lets take your translation of "child" instead of "infant"

2 Timothy 3:15 �15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.� KJV

CHILD=Greek �brephos� Of uncertain affinity; an infant (properly unborn) , babe, (young) child, infant�. Specific to 2 Timothy 3:15 = A noun meaning child, Spoken of a child yet unborn, a fetus. Usually an infant, babe, suckling.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> " and "chosen" to support your doctrine but fail to see the simplicity of Act 16:30.. " and brought them out and said, "Men, what must I do to be saved?� Act 16:31 and they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ..." they are in fact baptized afterward and they chose for themselves salvation. the holy spirit prompted...they chose<hr /></blockquote>You still misunderstand the point I am making. You refrain from Baptizing Babies because they must choose Salvation rather than receiving what is already theirs!
God offers �life� to your babies, he offers to raise them from the �dead� yet you say, no, let my baby remain in �death� until they can choose life for themselves!
Dead people cannot choose life! They must be alive first and then they can either rejoice that they are alive or they can kill themselves by committing spiritual suicide.
The fact that they can make any choice this way or that, is a result of already being alive!
God offers that life to them in Baptism.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 08:23 PM

When you had babies, the first time you looked at them, did you think they were sinful, unclean, and an abomination before God?

God gave you more than the Bible to understand these things. He gave you your heart and your mind and the Holy Spirit. None of the other gifts God has given you can possibly confirm to you that babies are dirty, sinful creatures.

The Gospel, believe it or not, actually makes sense. I submit that children, because of their innocence are incapable of sin. I submit that they are are "an heritage of the Lord." You seem to think that they are inherently evil and destined for Hell if not baptized. Babies are the only thing in God's creation that are actually perfect.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 08:30 PM

Nabster
I forgot to add this to my above post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />yes, babies were killed in the flood...and babies are killed today...but that doesnt mean accountable...they will not be in hell. they will be in heaven with god. and your verse about accountable even if unaware has nothing to do with those who dont have the capacity to understand sin...<hr /></blockquote>According to the NT, the flood was a "shadow" of the Baptism that now saves us. That means that when the infants that died in the flood, it too was a shadow of what happens to infants who have not been born again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />not literal children...ie people<hr /></blockquote>Babies are people

<blockquote>quote:<hr />AND I SAY AGAIN THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HELL.THIS IS A DOCTRINE OF FEAR...."A PARENT SHOULD BAPTISE THEIR INFANTS SO THEY WONT GO TO HELL"....i think i see now why you do it.
HOW GUILTY A PARENT MUST FEEL IF THEY DO NOT BAPTISE THEIR CHILD BEFORE IT DIES. tHIS MAKES THEM REPSONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S SALVATION...GARBAGE ECHO.<hr /></blockquote>This is not a doctrine of fear, it is a doctrine of the unfathomable love of God towards undeserving mankind!

IF your baby is dying and needs life giving surgery, will you allow the baby to have the surgery that can save him, or will you reject it because the baby can't himself make a decision?
Baptizing infants is making a decision to go for the life saving surgery.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 08:50 PM

Joel

<blockquote>quote:<hr />When you had babies, the first time you looked at them, did you think they were sinful, unclean, and an abomination before God?<hr /></blockquote>When I had my baby, I knew how much God loved , adored him and treasured him just as he is,an imperfect sinful human being. And for whom Jesus died that he might be declared perfect forever!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The Gospel, believe it or not, actually makes sense. I submit that children, because of their innocence are incapable of sin. I submit that they are are "an heritage of the Lord." You seem to think that they are inherently evil and destined for Hell if not baptized. Babies are the only thing in God's creation that are actually perfect.<hr /></blockquote>It is unbiblical that babies are perfect.
Psalm 51 :5 "5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV

Like I said before, David's mother did not have an adulterous affair. So that is not what this verse means when it says "in sin did my mother concieve me" Like I also said before, The mother is not "unclean" during conception. So this is not what this verse means either. It means the baby inherited a sinful nature and was born with it. So that the NIV interpretation rings true.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." NIV

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 08:53 PM

What website do you do Mormon outreach for?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 09:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What website do you do Mormon outreach for?<hr /></blockquote>Joel, I do not have the time to get into a conversation about the website. I already spend far too much time on my computer as is, I was not expecting everyone to drop out of the coversations when I began posting here and because they have, I am spending far more time than I should already, posting in here.
The conversations we already have going is more than I can handle at this time. Sorry.
I am leaving that ministry out of these conversations.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 10:02 PM

I just want to know a link to the site so I can check it out.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 10:11 PM

Sorry, not at this time

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 10:13 PM

Are you hiding something? I mean really, what's the big deal in giving out a link to a website that you work for?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 10:22 PM

Not hiding nothing Joel, What I do apart from this forum is my personal business. I know you are eager to find out, and that you will start a new thread about it. I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME.
If I had something to hide, I would not have mentioned it at all. So get rid of your false accusations

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 10:47 PM

I didn't really start with the false accusations, it was actually you who questioned why I spent so much time on the computer and accused me of "stealing" from my employer (have you ever heard of "paid on commission").

I swear on the Bible, Book of Mormon and my grandfather's grave I won't start a new topic.

I find it odd that you won't simply type in a web address and that leads me to conclude that you are involved in some organization that makes its money on anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.

If your organization is legitimate, you should have no qualms posting a link.

However, if it is in anyway affiliated with any of the non-reputable anti-Mormon sites, then I can understand your reluctance to post it.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 11:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Echo:
[QB] NABSTER

There is not one passage in scripture that says that babies cannot sin. It says the opposite.

Psalm 51 :5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"<hr /></blockquote>humility before God in a time of repentance, the statement is about humility not the state of all infants.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

John 3:6 ��6Flesh gives birth to flesh��<hr /></blockquote>you are so out of context here...echo.
the scripture is about Nicodemus asking Christ how one can be "born again" he asks how can a man return to a moters womb and be born again? and Jesus says..."that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which os born of the Spirit is spirit. SPeaking of a spiritual rebirth. not flesh and sin.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Romans 3:10-12 �10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
<hr /></blockquote>now this is from Psalms and is speaking of old testament law...look it up. for the law brings knowledge of sin. yes , all jave sinned a...and let us define sin...according to CHrist.
Fact No. 1

CHRIST TAUGHT THAT TEMPTATION IS NOT SIN

For forty days and forty nights Jesus was constantly tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Yet never once did He yield to the tempter. Later after spending some time in His ministry He said to His disciples, "Ye are they who have continued with Me in My temptation" (Luke 22:28). Jesus thus describes His very life on earth as a period of temptations. Yet, challenging His enemies, He said, "Which of you convinceth Me of sin (John 8:46) Jesus never sinned, because He never yielded to temptation. So the writer of the book of Hebrews could truthfully say. "He was in all points tempted like as we are yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15). "Though tempted every day," one has said, "Jesus boldly faced all His present and future enemies in the absolute certainty of His spotless purity before God and man."

It should be remembered then that temptation is not sin---but only an opportunity to do either right or wrong-- to choose either virtue or evil---to serve either God or Satan. The birds that fly over our heads cannot be controlled by us. But to let them build a nest in our hair quite another thing.

Fact No. 2

JESUS TAUGHT THAT MISTAKES ARE NOT SIN

Speaking of those who hate and persecute both Him and His disciples, Jesus said, "If I had not come and spoken unto them they had not had sin but now they have no cloak for their sin...If I had not done among them the works that none other man did they had not had sin but now have they both seen and hated both Me and My Father" (John 15:22 and 24).

In other words, "If these haters and opposes had not seen Me raise the dead and heal blind eyes and lepers and lame, theirs would be only a mistake. But now, having seen the evidence of My Deity---having seen the proof of My connection with God--having seen My Words confirmed by miracles which only the Father could perform, now they know better and therefore are sinning." Thus Jesus in this discourse, distinctly teaches that mistakes are not sin.

Again in John 9:41 this great moral principle is reaffirmed Jesus declares to compromising religious leaders, "If ye are blind, ye should have sin; but because ye say we see, therefore your sin remaineth." To these religious pretenders--these "blind leaders of the blind"--these "whited sepulchers"--these "wolves in sheep's clothing", Jesus said, "Had ye believed Moses ye would have believed Me, for He wrote of Me." Without walking in the Light which they had, they yet claimed to be enlightened, but Jesus said because they knew better--but did not do better--therefore their sin remained.

Having noted that temptation is not sin and mistakes are not sin and that the willing heart will receive added light let us look now at what sin is.

Fact No. 3

JESUS TAUGHT THAT SIN ALWAYS INVOLVES A WILLFUL REJECTION OF LIGHT

We have already seen in John 15:24 how Jesus taught that sin consists in doing wrong when we know better. Christ taught that even the Pharisees, in rejecting Him, would not have been sinning if they had no proof of His divinity. Christ repeatedly taught that wherever sin is involved, there is rejection of light. For example in John the third chapter, Jesus explained clearly what He means by sin, and what God considers as sin. Many know by heart John 3:16, but few seem to have noticed the clear teaching which follows the sixteenth verse. We shall quote Jesus' words from verse 18 onward. "He that believeth on Him is not condemned. But he that believth not is condemened already, because he hath not believed on the Name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation (or this is the reason for condemnation) that Light is come into the world, but men loved darkness rather than Light." (Note carefully) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

Observe that Christ her emphasizes that only such as turn away from all evil are truly believing Him.

"But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God." The Amplified version makes this more clear: He who practices Truth--who does what is right--comes out into the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are, wrought in God --divinely prompted--done with God's help. Note how this agrees with the statement of John the beloved disciple: "If we walk in the Light as He is in the Light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleaseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

Please note that the above statement of Christ also implies that mistake are not sin. Because of the widespread misunderstanding and confusion on this particular point, let us re-emphasize that mistakes are made because of lack of light, whereas sin always involves the willful rejection of light. Even in the "sins of ignorance" of the Old Testament those responsible to inform Israel of God's laws were personally guilty, in their failure to do so.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
How can you argue against all these passages? We are BY NATURE objects of wrath, that means we are born that way! Nothing in scripture says that babies are � not� born sinful or that babies are �not� by nature objects of wrath. There are no exceptions noted in any of these passages for infants therefore it is all-inclusive.<hr /></blockquote>see above please.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> By the way, your WELS doctrine is becoming more clear...Baptism saves <hr /></blockquote>Faith in the gospel saves. Baptism "creates� faith in infants and �strengthens� faith in adults.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />, no one has a choice until after he is baptized.No one has a choice until he has already the gift of Salvation. The choice is not to choose Salvation. It is to choose to serve the Lord who has already saved them.
You cannot choose something that is already yours.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> it is okay to drink a little even it if hurts your witness.That is not what I said. I said that we would refrain if it was a stumbling block to someone or if we thought it would hurt our witness in any way. <hr /></blockquote>HOW DO YOU KNOW IF YOU ARE A STUMBLING BLOCK? IT MAY BE TO PERSONS YOU DONT EVEN KNOW BUT HAVE SEEN YOU AT YOUR CHURCH, EVEN WORSE IN MINISTRY IN YOUR CHURCH.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Christ is Lord and MAster and saviour but not HEaler and physician,because you dont believe in divine healing and the works of the HOly Spirit in faith healing and dont believe in the Baptism of the HOly Spirit, even though Jesus is the one who does so.<hr /></blockquote>This is unfair because I told you that I still must research this. Yet you keep bringing it up. I will tell you what I am thinking so far now though. Jesus IS my healer and physician; he has healed my heart by his love and given me eternal life! How much more healing do I need??? What is physical healing?<hr /></blockquote>I APOLOGIZE FOR MY TONE ABOVE. Healing of the body from sickness. emotional and spiritual yes, but included is physical healing. the bible says for believers to call on te elders of the church to lay hands on them and pray the prayer of faith for healing."is any among you sick?...." that scripture.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I have spiritual and emotional healing! And though outwardly I am wasting away, yet inwardly I am being renewed day by day!(Paul). I don�t love God because he can do miracles and awe me with tongues, or some infilling of the Holy Spirit. I love God because he first loved me!<hr /></blockquote>amen sister. I do too. BUT THERE IS MORE. Much more. ANd it comes with the infilling of the HOly SPirit, the one that JEsus gives, for He is the one who baptises with thhe Holy Spirit. <blockquote>quote:<hr />
What is the focus of your Sunday service? Faith healing, tongues and infilling of the Holy Spirit? The focus of ours is Jesus Christ and him crucified!<hr /></blockquote>we praise and worship Jesus for about 20-30 minutes. we have some alter time and pray for needs(physical, emotional, spiritual, or special need of a brother or sister) we have preaching(always JESUS centered teaching). Our focus is on Jesus, remember, as you begin to research the Holy SPirit, that HE always points to Jesus. Speaking in tongues in prayer is a whole 'nother topic altogeter(we use caution around unbelievers or new believers unfamilar in order to not create cinfusion), we do have some sunday eve services where we focus on people who desire the Baptism of the Holy GHost to receive it, and we do some teaching with an alter service following.
i am done addressing infants. we clearly will have to agree to disagree.
Please accept my apology for my tone in last post or two. I reread them and it sounded ugly...sorry.
nabster

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 11:17 PM

JOEL

The following is precisely why I don't want to give it to you:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />that leads me to conclude that you are involved in some organization that makes its money on anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.
<hr /></blockquote>You are so filled with HATE yourself, that I refuse to give it to you. You often make evil accusations about me and accuse me of something I am not guilty of, despite my consistently having to tell you my motives and reaffirming them over and over. I refuse to do it because I want to protect them from you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I swear on the Bible, Book of Mormon and my grandfather's grave I won't start a new topic.<hr /></blockquote>Mathew 5:34,35 "But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/12/05 11:35 PM

My motive is to make sure that the whole truth is on the table, not hatred. Often it is unclear where a person is really coming from until we know where they stand - physically, i.e. what sort of organizations they support and sustain through their efforts.

The fact of the matter is that there are several anti-Mormon websites out there that are motivated by hatred and money. There are others, that aren't so bad and simply have an honest intellectual and spiritual dispute with Mormon doctrine.

I'm curious because you spout off alot of stuff that is standard amongst the worst kind of anti-Mormon websites... such as

Mormons use different definitions

I brought this up a few pages ago and it was never responded to.

I have no interest in going to any other website and battling the anti-Mormons, there are plenty of other folks out there with more time, resources and desire than me to do that. I am here, because I enjoy discussing doctrine - Mormon and non-Mormon alike with friends like nabster, Trusting Him, Steve, and Allen. I really do consider them friends, despite our intellectual and spiritual differences. I worry with them about their families and pray for them and their children when asked. Essentially, I enjoy their company.

I am simply a little suspicious of you because I'm afraid someone has misled you regarding Mormons. There's plenty to disagree on in our doctrine and yours which is why I don't understand why you obsess over the things where there is almost little to no disagreement... such as...

We are saved by grace.

Why not go to battle about other things? You are wrong about this in our doctrine no matter how hard you want us to be saved by works and grace, you're wrong.

But again, this is a staple scare tactic of career anti-Mormons. "they believe they are saved by works" "They think you must be perfect"
"They don't believe in Christ's Atonement" all of which is false.

I agree with you on being saved by grace, the particulars on how we get there may be a little different (like whether or not God chooses us or we choose him) but essentially we agree.

If your organization is a reputable one, then simply say the name. Your reluctance to share it makes it appear that you know that they are not. I'm not going to go after you or them on the basis of the organization. I simply want all the cards laid on the table.

Everyone knows I'm a true blue Mormon and will be til I die. I don't make any money being a Mormon (in fact I lose 10% on my gross income annually - just a joke folks). I believe in my religion free of any reason other to do so aside from my love for Christ and his Church.

So everyone knows exactly where I stand - both spiritually and physically I stand with Jesus and the LDS Church. We know you stand with Jesus and WELS, but now you've thrown out that there is this website that you participate in to help proselytize to Mormons. Well, what is it?

If you don't want to give the name, maybe you will at least answer questions about it.

Is it not-for-profit?

Does it have anything at all to do with Ed Decker, SaintsAlive.com, or the GodMakers?

Does it have anything to do with Utah Lighthouse Ministries?

Is it affiliated with WELS?

Are you paid for your time?

As for this <blockquote>quote:<hr />

quote:
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I swear on the Bible, Book of Mormon and my grandfather's grave I won't start a new topic.
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Mathew 5:34,35 "But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.

<hr /></blockquote>Of course you are correct. I was merely using a figure of speech, but on retrospect it is probably an inappropriate figure of speech.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/13/05 03:55 AM

Joel

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am simply a little suspicious of you because I'm afraid someone has misled you regarding Mormons. There's plenty to disagree on in our doctrine and yours which is why I don't understand why you obsess over the things where there is almost little to no disagreement... such as...

We are saved by grace.<hr /></blockquote>How can you be suspicious of me if someone has misled me? I don�t understand? I am here telling you what I think about Mormon doctrine, from what I have learned from reading LDS sources and I am listening to you and asking you to help me to understand it if I am wrong. It is not that I don�t trust what you are saying either, it is not that at all. It is a matter of what exactly you �mean� by what you �say�. I want to know the meaning of everything you say.

It is really important to me to understand LDS theology completely. Why? Because in the future, I won�t have the dilemma I am having with you. I love the LDS people and am firmly convinced so far, that they are not saved and that they are being led by false teaching into outer darkness. This really chews me up inside. More than you know!

Nothing has convinced me otherwise so far. That does not mean that you could change my mind. But that is going to take patient instruction from your part. Either way, if my conviction remains that the LDS are going to outer darkness, it is far better that I understand their theology completely and thoroughly as I would only be greater equipped to help them out of the deception they are in.
But if my complete and thorough understanding leads me to see that they have saving faith, I would jump for joy!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My motive is to make sure that the whole truth is on the table, not hatred.<hr /></blockquote>I can understand why you have problems with those who Hate Mormons. But on the other hand, I believe that not everyone who �you perceive� as �hating Mormons� actually hates Mormons. I believe there are many, many Christians out there battling for the souls of Mormons. You should feel honored and special, that they would devote so much of their time for Mormons!!! Think about it, you think they are wrong about you, but they don�t think they are wrong about you. They are firmly convinced that Mormons are going to outer darkness! So they put all their effort into trying to show why that is! That is love for Mormons!!!!!
So I believe you can be wrong about that too. I don�t personally know of any Mormon hate sites, perhaps get me a link and I will check it out to see what it is you are talking about. At any rate, why do you always want to group me in with them? What a waste of my time to go around hating Mormons, I don�t have time, nor energy, nor desire to go around hating anyone. I do love God and I do want to do his will with all my heart however badly I fail at doing that.
I am here and I am trying to learn what you are teaching me, does that not speak for itself? Does the fact that I have been trying to keep peace between us as far as possible come across as meaningless or hateful? Because if it does, I might as well give up! Can you not refrain from mixing me together with those who hate Mormons? Can you not take me at my word? Do you have any idea the distressful emotions you cause me when you label me a Mormon hater? Especially when I tell you otherwise, over and over and over� Do you have any idea how much anxiety that causes me in my heart because I know it is so far from the truth? Do you know what I feel like inside when you call me a liar by not taking me at my word? Do you know what that does to my emotions? Do you know how I feel when you ridicule me and make fun of me? I am an emotionally weak person, and you have caused me much distress and suffering because all that you say is simply not true! I really should have left this forum by now. The emotions are just too much for me. But I can�t. I love Mormons and they are worth it!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Mormons use different definitions I brought this up a few pages ago and it was never responded to. <hr /></blockquote>I have tried to explain this to you before, I guess you are telling me I did not do a very good job explaining it? Okay.

Lets see if I can explain it better.

Mormons believe in 3 Gods, Father, son and Holy Spirit.
Christians believe in 1 God, Father, son and Holy Spirit.

The Mormon definition of the roles of the priesthood differ from the Christian definition as we have discussed.

The Mormon definition for Heaven is Celestial, terrestrial and tellestial.
The Christian definition for heaven is �one heaven�

The Mormon definition for Hell is a temporary place where some go between death and resurrection. It is not where Satan and his demons are. Satan and his demons are in outer darkness.
The Christian definition for Hell is the permanent place where Satan and his demons are and all those who don�t go to heaven live forever.

In LDS, the atonement is defined as unconditionally covering ONLY adams sin and only conditionally each person�s individual sin.
In Christianity, the atonement unconditionally covers all our sin.
In LDS the Gospel is defined as including the law of commandments among other things.
In Christianity the Gospel has no law in it at all.

These are just a few. So my problem then comes in that when you say something using biblical terms, I am never certain what you mean, I have not researched the LDS definitions on �all� biblical terms yet. I have done some.
But the fact that I have found so many of them that differ, I cannot be certain I understand what you are saying. Do you see what I mean?
You say you are saved by the gospel. So do I. But we mean different things when we each say this according to our definitions of the Gospel.
In essence, Joel. You and I speak the same words, but we really are speaking a different language to one another. So, when you say you are saved by Grace, you mean one thing and perhaps something entirely different that what I mean! You need to explain what you mean. Then,� more confusion comes in because I have to try to put all this together to see what you are saying. That is not an easy task! It is like trying to learn a whole new language. So patient instruction is what I need from you. And you seem to be doing better at this in the other thread. I thank you for that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> There's plenty to disagree on in our doctrine and yours which is why I don't understand why you obsess over the things where there is almost little to no disagreement... such as...

We are saved by grace.<hr /></blockquote>I hope I explained this above well enough, but I will add one thing. I obsess with it because it is very important to me that I understand it thoroughly. I have no desire to misrepresent LDS doctrine here nor anywhere and the more I learn, the less chance that will happen. It is important to me!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Why not go to battle about other things? You are wrong about this in our doctrine no matter how hard you want us to be saved by works and grace, you're wrong.<hr /></blockquote>Again, this really hits me in the heart and it hurts. I do NOT want you to be saved by works and grace! I want you to be SAVED! This really hurts Joel. You keep making me out to be the bad guy when I really do LOVE MORMONS!!!!!!!!
You can not even imagine how happy I would be to find out I am wrong!!!!!!!! I WOULD LOVE TO BE WRONG!! It would save me so much heartache and pain and I can hardly wait to find out I am wrong!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But again, this is a staple scare tactic of career anti-Mormons. "they believe they are saved by works" "They think you must be perfect"
"They don't believe in Christ's Atonement" all of which is false.<hr /></blockquote>I am not too sure what you mean here? But when I read LDS sources, I conclude that you are saved by works as well! Why is that?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "They don't believe in Christ's Atonement" all of which is false.<hr /></blockquote>This I understand. If someone says this about Mormons, it is true. Perhaps you misunderstand what they mean and take it in the wrong way. If you look at our differing definitions of Atonement, You do not actually believe in the Christian Atonement. Therefore when they say you don�t believe in Christ�s Atonement, this is what they mean. You don�t believe in the Christian Atonement.
Saying things like this does not make a person a Mormon hater. Unless you have left something out?? I don�t see hate in that statement. They are trying to tell you what I have just explained is all.

I am not so sure we agree on what being saved by grace is yet. I have to learn more from you to see if we agree or not.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ). I believe in my religion free of any reason other to do so aside from my love for Christ and his Church.<hr /></blockquote>I wholeheartedly believe you Joel. I just wish you would do the same for me. I do believe you are deceived and you believe the same about me. That does not make us each other�s enemies now does it? It is you and I - against Satan, he is the enemy, so lets put our heads together and win the Battle!

About the website, it is non-profit, I don�t make a penny either. And they love Mormons so much you could not even imagine! Some of them are ex-mormons devoting 40-60 hours per week to save the Mormons they love and miss!

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/13/05 04:08 AM

Joel

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I didn't really start with the false accusations, it was actually you who questioned why I spent so much time on the computer and accused me of "stealing" from my employer (have you ever heard of "paid on commission")<hr /></blockquote>To be honest, I never thought about commission, I pictured you in some fancy building working from a private office in some high paid executive position because you are so smart. I apologize wholeheartedly, that was presumptuous and uncalled for! I am truly SORRY Joel. I am a very very, Sorry! It was wrong of me to do that.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/13/05 04:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Does it have anything at all to do with Ed Decker, SaintsAlive.com, or the GodMakers?

Does it have anything to do with Utah Lighthouse Ministries?<hr /></blockquote>you still haven't answered this. Do you use any materials produced by any of these to anti-Mormon hate sites?

I can only guess, due to it's affiliation with WELS that you volunteer for www.truthinlovetomormons.com.

It is a dot.com site, which would normally indicate that it isn't a non-profit. praisecafe for instance is a dot.org site indicating it is a non-profit.

It seems to be a site dedicated to and run by disaffected Mormons who for whatever reason left the faith. As you said, "Some of them are ex-mormons devoting 40-60 hours per week to save the Mormons they love and miss!" which only fulfills the prophecy of Joseph Smith when he said, "There are many who may leave the Church, but they can never leave it alone."

From what you've shared of your limited, biased, and misguided knowledge of LDS doctrine and belief it's pretty clear that you've learned what you've learned from disaffected Mormons who never understood the doctrine themselves or did and hate it so badly they purposely misrepresent it to the world in hopes of duping gullible and uninformed Mormons into leaving. Really quite an upstanding Christian group.

I know you'll say that you never talked to anyone about what Mormons believe and have learned what you've learned on your own, but since we now know that you work for a site that is dedicated to destroying the faith of Mormons, I think we can drop that charade. I believe that you've studied for yourself, but I can't possibly believe that your study hasn't been colored by what you've at the very least overheard from others.

I'll take up the rest in the appropriate thread.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/13/05 05:58 PM

Nabster

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please accept my apology for my tone in last post or two. I reread them and it sounded ugly...sorry.<hr /></blockquote>Forgiven!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />i am done addressing infants. we clearly will have to agree to disagree.<hr /></blockquote>Okay but just a few closing comments on the topic. You should consider rethinking your understanding of what sin is according to the passages you gave. The Pharisees outwardly looked good and did good but Jesus called them white washed tombs. Showing that sin is more than just an outward action. Worry and Lust are also sinful thoughts.

Psalm 58
"1 Do you rulers indeed speak justly? Do you judge uprightly among men? 2 No, in your heart you devise injustice, and your hands mete out violence on the earth. 3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. 4 Their venom is like the venom of a snake, like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears, 5 that will not heed the tune of the charmer, however skillful the hunter may be. 6 Break the teeth in their mouths, O God; tear out, O LORD, the fangs of the lions!
7 Let them vanish like water that flows away;
when they draw the bow, let their arrows be blunted. 8 Like a slug melting away as it moves along, like a stillborn child, may they not see the sun. 9 Before your pots can feel the heat of the thorns� whether they be green or dry�the wicked will be swept away. 10 The righteous will be glad when they are avenged, when they bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked. 11 Then men will say, "Surely the righteous still are rewarded; surely there is a God who judges the earth."

Very clearly we are sinful from birth.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/13/05 10:54 PM

I'm not done.

I still remain unconvinced that infant baptism has anything to do with the Bible. It wasn't practiced at the time of the Bible and didn't arise for many years after.

The words "Infant baptism" don't even appear in the Bible and you accept the practice. Whereas the words "Baptize for the Dead" are in the Bible and you reject that practice, or at least I'd be willing to bet that you do.

I also remain unconvinced regarding your arguments about choice not being ours.

You've also said that "Baptism creates faith in infants" in one place and you've said that it is "the hearing of the word that creates faith" in another. Which is it? Do we come to faith through the word or through baptism?

Similarly, can I decide for Christ, when the choice isn't up to me at all.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/13/05 11:52 PM

From the Mormon thread, if changing what Jesus taught makes you un-Christian, I guess you guys aren't Christians either.

Jesus did not teach infant baptism either by word or example.

Jesus taught that the signs of the spirit will be present with believers.

Jesus taught that as part of the Gospel, those who love him will keep his commandments.

Jesus taught, by example even after death that he would lead his church through apostles and prophets. He also continued to call men to the Apostleship after he died.

Jesus taught that you have to actually "do" something to enter the kingdom of heaven Matthew 7:21

That's enough for now, I don't intend to debate these points, only to show how easy it is to say that someone has changed Jesus teachings.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/14/05 12:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Jesus taught that you have to actually "do" something to enter the kingdom of heaven Matthew 7:21<hr /></blockquote>Yes, he did. But look what else he wrote there:

"Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out many demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, "I never new you. Away from me you evildoers!"

Go and find out what that means Joel.
Because what has Jesus asked us to do?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life"

You will go to heaven and spend eternity with Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit if you are RIGHTEOUS when you die.

You will go to Hell and spend eternity with Satan and his demons if you are UNRIGHTEOUS when you die.

Matthew 13: 41 �The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.�

*** What must a person do to go to heaven?

Jesus has made you righteous. Believe it, and you have eternal life.

John 3: 36 �He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.�

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/14/05 01:31 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.<hr /></blockquote>infants? speak lies? come on echo....what this means is that even from birth(innocence) the wicked will go astray(we all do) but clearly infants do not speak lies...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
10 The righteous will be glad when they are avenged, when they bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked. 11 Then men will say, "Surely the righteous still are rewarded; surely there is a God who judges the earth."<hr /></blockquote>uhhhh, sounds like sinful rejoicing in the pain of others, does it not?
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Very clearly we are sinful from birth.[/b] [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>no not clear at all. and you will never convince me otherwise especially by using scripture out of context to in order to prove a WELS doctrine.
i guess, quite frankly, this is why we have many denominations amongst the body of Christ.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/14/05 04:50 PM

Echo, I agree almost entirely with everything that you posted and none of it is in conflict with LDS doctrine.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 03:00 AM

Yes it is.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 03:55 AM

HOW BOUT SOME SCOOBY SNACKS FOR THE TWO OF YOU?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 03:56 AM

Nabster

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />what this means is that even from birth(innocence) the wicked will go astray(we all do) but clearly infants do not speak lies...<hr /></blockquote>Okay Nabster, with your own words you have just said that the wicked go astray from birth.
Clearly, we are sinful from birth.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 03:58 AM

Nabster

Scooby snacks? What kind? I am starving!

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 02:00 PM

AND THE LITERAL SPEAK LIES PART? DO BABIES SPEAK LIES...IN THE WOMB..? WHAT I MEAN , AS YOU KNOW, IS INNOCENCE LEAVES ALL OF US , WE ARE ALL SINNERS, but babies do not willfully, sin, in their heart minds or spirit.if grace is free and from God,(and it is) this is the best example of it, because a baby is not going to hell if he/she dies unbaptised and unaccountable. to say otherwise is to say God is unjust and unfair...because it would be so if unaccountable infants were going to hell because mommy or daddy didnt baptise them. no where in the new testament/new covenant/ is anyone saved because of someone else's decision FOR THEM.
Infant baptism for salvation is a nice gesture and dedication to God is appropriate and justifiable, but it does not save anything, especially the baby. I guess you could say i believe God has saved them from birth and when they become accountable after hearing the gospel they then must choose for themselves. this is a parents responsibility, to teach them and lead them to christ. so God's grace covers newborns until they can comprehend what it means to ask Jesus into their own heart.
SHOW ME INFANT BAPTISM IN THE BIBLE AND HOW IT SAVED ONE SINGLE SOUL....YOU CANT.
WHEN THE BIBLE IS LITERAL TAKE IT AS SUCH.
BABIES DONT SPEAK IN THE WOMB AND SPEAK LIES, THIS IS FIGURATIVE...I TOLD YOU WHAT IT MEANS , AND YET YOU STILL WANT IT TO MEAN BABIES ARE SINNERS, JUST LIKE ADULTS ARE SINNERS....BY ACTIONS AND WORDS AND THOUGHTS AND DEEDS.
BY THE WAY, IF WE ARE SAVED BY GRACEA AND FAITH, WHY BAPTISE AN INFANT FOR SALVATION? THIS IS AS MUCH A WORK AS ANYTHING? IT IS A PHYSICAL ACT TO SAVE SOMEONE ELSE. IT IS JUST UNSCRIPTURAL, ESPECIALLY IN THIS LIGHT.(DARN CAPSlock...sorry)

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 03:38 PM

Nabster, I'm going to mail you a new keyboard. I have about 100 of them lying around somewhere.

Echo, when your kids dies at birth, before he can be baptised, we'll then see how you take it. I had 3 brothers and sisters die at birth or in the womb. One of them was my twin. Does this mean that I believe that they are going to hell? No.

Your sect of Christianity is too strung out for me and for many people here. Some of the stuff that you say and post, its downright outrageous. I'm not sure how you can in your heart believe that so many people are going to hell, just because they are not baptised. How can you "accept Jesus" before you even know what he is? The people are making a decision for you, one that you can not even understand. Therfore, those parents are forcing the religion on their kid. And because they can't "know Jesus" untill they reach the age of reason, 7, they are going to hell in your book.

By you condemning these kids and judging for God, you are saying what God says. And according to you, that is wrong in God's eyes. So you are now going to hell, in your eyes.

Posted By: anangelsarms

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 03:57 PM

original sin is something that we as catholics believe can be washed away with baptism. now this is done with the common sense understanding that the baby WILL sin eventually, so this is something that i feel is ritualistic in nature and is to remind the parents that they have a tough job ahead of themselves to teach the child to be sin free as much as possible. to fault the child for the sins of the adult is something i have heard of, but come on now ... a baby ? sometimes taking the bible THAT literally is plain off-base. sorry.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 04:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus taught that you have to actually "do" something to enter the kingdom of heaven Matthew 7:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, he did. But look what else he wrote there:

"Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out many demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, "I never new you. Away from me you evildoers!"<hr /></blockquote>I agree with that. It's not in conflict with LDS doctrine.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Go and find out what that means Joel.
Because what has Jesus asked us to do? <hr /></blockquote>Have faith in him.

[/quote]John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life"[/quote] Yeah, I agree, I actually think I quoted that in another part of our rolling discussion.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You will go to heaven and spend eternity with Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit if you are RIGHTEOUS when you die.

You will go to Hell and spend eternity with Satan and his demons if you are UNRIGHTEOUS when you die.<hr /></blockquote>No problem with that either.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Matthew 13: 41 �The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.�<hr /></blockquote>Sounds good still in complete agreement.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />*** What must a person do to go to heaven?

Jesus has made you righteous. Believe it, and you have eternal life.<hr /></blockquote>Cool with that as long as the belief is more than just words. If it is true belief, works will accompany it as outward evidence of that belief.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />John 3: 36 �He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.�<hr /></blockquote>Totally agree.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 09:40 PM

Nabster

<blockquote>quote:<hr />AND THE LITERAL SPEAK LIES PART? DO BABIES SPEAK LIES...IN THE WOMB..? WHAT I MEAN , AS YOU KNOW, IS INNOCENCE LEAVES ALL OF US , WE ARE ALL SINNERS, but babies do not willfully, sin, in their heart minds or spirit.<hr /></blockquote>It does not matter if the sin is not willfull, the baby is still guilty.

Leviticus5:17,18 If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven.

In the NT, Baptism applies the atonement to the Child.
We inherited our sinful nature from Adam. That means we are born with it. Clearly I have showed scripture to point that out. Psalm 51:5 is very clear.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />this is the best example of it, because a baby is not going to hell if he/she dies unbaptised and unaccountable. to say otherwise is to say God is unjust and unfair...because it would be so if unaccountable infants were going to hell because mommy or daddy didnt baptise them. no where in the new testament/new covenant/ is anyone saved because of someone else's decision FOR THEM.<hr /></blockquote>Infants born to beleivers who die before baptism still go to heaven. I explained this earlier.

You are the one who told me that God is no respecter of persons. Why do you change your mind?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />SHOW ME INFANT BAPTISM IN THE BIBLE AND HOW IT SAVED ONE SINGLE SOUL....YOU CANT<hr /></blockquote>The burden of proof lies on you, not me. The Bible says to go and Baptize "all" nations. That includes everyone, young and old. If the Bible said: " Go and Baptize all nations over the age of 12" you would have won me over. If the Bible said "this promise is for you and your children over the age of 12" You would have won me over.
But the Bible never says this! It simply says "this promise is for you and your children"
When the BIble says: "No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born again" you would or could convince me it it said "no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again once they are accountable" But it does not say this.

God works faith through the gospel, faith alone saves. The sacrament of Baptism is the gospel as well! What makes us born again? faith through hearing the gospel! Baptism is how God works faith in babies hearts!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />SHOW ME INFANT BAPTISM IN THE BIBLE AND HOW IT SAVED ONE SINGLE SOUL....YOU CANT.<hr /></blockquote>Show me in the Bible where it says that we should not baptize infants.
Circumcision is a HUGE sign of including babies in the covnenant! They did not wait until the babies were old enough. How can you ignore this??? In fact, the Bible says that those babies who weren't circumcised where not included as part of the family!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />BY THE WAY, IF WE ARE SAVED BY GRACEA AND FAITH, WHY BAPTISE AN INFANT FOR SALVATION? THIS IS AS MUCH A WORK AS ANYTHING? <hr /></blockquote>Baptism is not somthing we do for God. Baptism is somthing God does for us! Perhaps this is where your thinking is wrong. Baptism is not a sign from us to God that we have excepted him. It is a means of Grace. It is somthing God does for us.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 09:49 PM

Mouse

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Echo, when your kids dies at birth, before he can be baptised, we'll then see how you take it. I had 3 brothers and sisters die at birth or in the womb. One of them was my twin. Does this mean that I believe that they are going to hell? No.<hr /></blockquote>God can work faith in babies hearts. John the Baptist had faith in the womb.
If we desire baptism for a child and the child dies before baptism, the child will be saved.

God only rejects those who refuse baptism for themselves and their children. Because to do so is to reject christ.

Even the thief on the cross went to heaven without baptism. He would have submitted to baptism if he were not hanging on a cross.

Parents have the God given responsibility to care for their children. If they love God, naturally then they will baptize thier children in the best interest of the child.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 09:55 PM

Mouse

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm not sure how you can in your heart believe that so many people are going to hell, just because they are not baptised. How can you "accept Jesus" before you even know what he is? <hr /></blockquote>Even in the Bible it says that those who never heard the gospel are still going to hell. Mind you, they have a lighter sentence.
Their punishment will be less severe.

The whole point is that none of us deserve to be saved and we all deserve to suffer the consequences of sin. God's grace towards us is is not because we deserve it. Because none of us deserve it.

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 09:57 PM

So the sin of the parent is cast down to the child?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 10:02 PM

The sin of Adam , our first parent, has infected every person that has ever lived.
So that we all deserve to suffer forever in Hell.
God is no respecter of persons.
God is not obligated to save us.
God however loves us and has made a way for us to be saved.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 10:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The burden of proof lies on you, not me.<hr /></blockquote>I disagree as the only Baptisms we are exposed to in the Bible are all of adults. Starting with Jesus, moving on throughout the remainder of the Bible. You'd think that a book that covers almost 100 years of history would mention one infant baptism if it was such an important and vital thing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Circumcision is a HUGE sign of including babies in the covnenant! They did not wait until the babies were old enough. How can you ignore this??? In fact, the Bible says that those babies who weren't circumcised where not included as part of the family!
<hr /></blockquote>if you take the circumcision comparison one step further, then you can't baptize any baby girls because they weren't circumcized.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Even in the Bible it says that those who never heard the gospel are still going to hell. Mind you, they have a lighter sentence.<hr /></blockquote>Actually the Bible says that the dead will hear the Gospel so that they can be judged according to the flesh. 1 Peter 4:6 it also says that "all" will hear the Gospel. We've discussed this earlier and if you believe the word children is inclusive of infants, then I'm sure you'd agree that the word all includes those who are dead.

Also, you haven't addressed this and feel free to address it in the other thread. Baptism for the Dead actually gets a Biblical stamp of approval. <blockquote>quote:<hr />1Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? <hr /></blockquote>I'm certain you absolutely reject this practice - let me know if I'm wrong. If baptism for the dead, an itinerant doctrine, then why isn't there a verse explicitly confirming infant baptism, a central doctrine.

Hypothetical question, what if a parent doesn't reject baptism but they are just lazy and don't manage to get the kid baptized and he dies in a car accident when he's 2? What then?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 10:07 PM

i dont follow your logic one bit. levitival law was present to convict man of sin. the bible even says the law came to show man sin. the new covenant has the holy spirit convicting of sin on top of the law, but not the levitical law. the ten commandment laws. saved parents equals saved babies and unsaved parents equals unsaved babies?now you are saying someone esles salvation saves the baby.???? you said baptism saves(i disagree), accepting Jesus Christ saves, baptised or not...

how bout some new testament on circumcision.
Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

if this is correct, and it is, this too does away with old testament circumcision and new testament(if there be any) infant baptism.
being that you linked the two together. i will also. this clearly shows the old law of circumcisino is done away with and faith in christbrings salvation.
the catholic church started it and when lutheranism came around it carried over . it does not one bit of saving for an infant. I STILL AGREE A BABY SHOULD BE DEDICATED UNTO GOD FOR SERVICE AND MINISTRY AND THE PARENTS BE CHARGED WITH RAISING HIM FOR GOD, but it doesnt save echo. in fact, why should it? the entirety of salvation and heaven and hell and serving christ is the whole theme of Jesus Christ and his covenant with us....a covenant is two sided. god gives, we accept.. you make it sound like god gives, we have no choice so we are saved, and one day if we renounce god , we lose it.
what about this ?
a child is born of unsaved parents, he is severely mentally retarded, lives in foster homes, never knows or hears of Christ, dies at age 9 of child abuse. never baptised never even understands the concept of being "saved"....your interpretation says he is going to hell because he is sinful and he never was baptised, and his parents werent saved...dont you see the absurdity here?
you are clearly being taught by WELS their position which comes from the Catholic church. you probably believe in purgatory too?
nab

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 10:07 PM

And see now you're just twisting your own words to fit yourself right here.

Echo Quote:

Even in the Bible it says that those who never heard the gospel are still going to hell. Mind you, they have a lighter sentence.
I will try to find the verse and post it when I do.

Contradicting Echo quote:

God can work faith in babies hearts. John the Baptist had faith in the womb.
If we desire baptism for a child and the child dies before baptism, the child will be saved.

God only rejects those who refuse baptism for themselves and their children. Because to do so is to reject christ.

Babies, as it has been proven, do not even hav e a concept of who they are. So how are they supposed to know about a God and Jesus and all of that? also, show me where it says that John the Baptist had faith in his mother's womb.

I could go ranting and raving on here because you are so far out there, but I won't. Last time I did, I got booted from the men's forum for a while. So I'll keep my tounge in check.

I'm most likely the most sadistic guy on the site (which really isn't saying much) so take this to heart when I say this: When you have a kid that just died at childbirth, I seriously hope you have someone come up to you and tell you that kid is going to hell because you, the terrible parent, wasen't able to baptise him right away. But don't worry, he's only going to a lesser hell. So that just makes it all better.

I'm tired of posting to this mindless sludge like this. First it was Joel and I in the begining, then it was Jusselin and I, now its Echo. I'm just tired of reading this and getting upset. It's like reading the librel papers. I should most likely stop soon because every time I do, I put on my NRA hat and go out for a walk. Seriously, this stuff here is so orthodox, that its wrong.

However, give me like 5 days, and I'll have about 50 reasons why Echo is condemned to hell because of what the Bible says.

Echo, you may be a very nice person, but sometimes you need to think about some of the stuff you're hearing. You're no better right now than the terrorists. Or the IRA. Start thinking for yourself.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/15/05 10:42 PM

Here's another hypothetical.

Let's say a Wiccan, for social reasons, wants their baby baptized into WELS. What would WELS do? The parent is an unbeliever, but baptism is being offered the baby. However, the baby will be brought up to worship the Goddess and not God. What happens?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 04:13 AM

whoaaaaaa.......heavy stuff. wiccan into wels...very hypothetical

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 03:22 PM

a question was asked about no altar calls at WELS services for someone to accept Christ as saviour...here is official WELS response.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
It is good for Christians to look for presentations of the gospel and ways to respond to the gospel in the worship services they attend. This is why WELS worship services are full of gospel expressions (e.g. Scripture lessons, absolution, hymns, sermon, etc.) and opportunities to respond to the gospel (prayers, praise songs, offering, etc.).
If someone does not have Jesus in his heart, that is, is not a Christian, he will not become a Christian by "asking Jesus into his heart." The Scripture is clear that a human being can in no way participate in his own conversion (cf. Mt 16:16,17; Jn 15:16; 1 Cor 2:14; 1 Cor 12:3 and note how the "choosing" is done by God, not us). This is why we do not ask non-Christians to do something they cannot do in one of our worship services. Instead, we want to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ as clearly as possible in a service so that those who do not believe may be brought to faith by the Holy Spirit's using that gospel.<hr /></blockquote>This truly explains where you are coming from Echo. I do not understand the statement i highlighted in bold, because it is truly contradictory to other scriptures.
That statement is merely saying that THE MILLIONS WHO HAVE DONE SO are not saved? or that they were already saved before asking, or what?

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 04:07 PM

Okay, let's just make it a nominal, non-saved Catholic that wants to baptize their baby into WELS to keep the family happy.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 05:23 PM

JOEL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The burden of proof lies on you, not me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree as the only Baptisms we are exposed to in the Bible are all of adults<hr /></blockquote>Not true. The Bible says:

"go and baptize ALL nations"
"this promise is for you and your children"
Plus the 4 or 5 examples of whole households being baptised.

NO where does the Bible note exceptions for those under a certain age. NO WHERE!

The problem here is that you get the Bible to fit your teachings rather than getting your teachings to fit the Bible. This is your grave error! This is idolatry. This is placing God last instead of first!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />if you take the circumcision comparison one step further, then you can't baptize any baby girls because they weren't circumcized.<hr /></blockquote>The Bible compares Baptism to circumcision. They are still two different convenants. The point the Bible makes is that Baptism replaces circumsision. The NT however includes both male and female, it includes all people.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<hr /></blockquote>Note when Paul talks about this, what word does he use? He uses "THEY" meaning NOT "US"

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 05:33 PM

Nabster

<blockquote>quote:<hr />now you are saying someone esles salvation saves the baby.???? you said baptism saves(i disagree), accepting Jesus Christ saves, baptised or not...<hr /></blockquote>Your baby is very ill and in need of a life saving operation, without it, he will die. Will you let the baby have the operation because you love and care about him? Or will you let the baby stay at risk of dying and possibly even die before he is old enought to decide for himself wether or not to have the operation?

Are you thinking that I am mixing together circumcision and Baptism? That is not what I am doing. The Bible compares Baptism to circumcision and Baptism replaces circumsision.
The Old covenant is gone. But the point the NT makes is that Baptism "now" replaces the old order. Infants were circumsized without "choosing God first". Baptism is the same.

The point the NT makes is that we come into the covenant as infants. It is God's choice and not ours. Anyone is free to leave whenever they choose.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you probably believe in purgatory too?<hr /></blockquote>NO NO NO NO NO

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 05:52 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />NO where does the Bible note exceptions for those under a certain age. NO WHERE!<hr /></blockquote>You're right, but nowhere does the Bible have an actual example of a baby being baptized. NO WHERE!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The problem here is that you get the Bible to fit your teachings rather than getting your teachings to fit the Bible. This is your grave error! This is idolatry. This is placing God last instead of first!<hr /></blockquote>This is an almost laughable accusation from the woman who's been quoting the Book of Mormon out of context for over a month now. Moreover, haven't you heard all of us saying the same thing to you. Isn't saying the Bible's admonition to "Baptize all nations" applies to babies as much a stretch as anything anyone else here has ever posted.

Echo, your interpretation of the Bible is at times hard-line literal and at other times extremely interpretive.

You once demanded of me an example of Jesus praying to know if revealed truth was true, in order to justify an LDS doctrine. That's a pretty specific demand. Yet, you don't hold yourself to the same standard, by your own standard levied against me, you shouldn't allow for infant baptism unless you could find a specific example of it in the Bible, and you can't, so you all of a sudden make your standards less rigid for yourself.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Note when Paul talks about this, what word does he use? He uses "THEY" meaning NOT "US"<hr /></blockquote>We can talk about this in the Mormon thread, but if you take the verse in the context of where it was written it's clear that he is using the ordinance of baptism for the dead as a means of showing the Saducees (who don't believe in a resurrection) that there will be a resurrection. I don't think Paul would use a false doctrine to argue in favor of a true doctrine. Do you?

[quote]The point the NT makes is that we come into the covenant as infants. It is God's choice and not ours. Anyone is free to leave whenever they choose.quote] If salvation is God's choice and not ours, then why does he extend his choice to some nations and not others? It doesn't make sense. If God's doing the work and we do nothing, then why hasn't everyone been converted?

If as you claim God is doing the work and we have no part in it, then he is clearly a respecter of persons as he has chosen some people over another by choosing to extend his gift of baptism only to those nations that are Christian.

Posted By: Andy

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 07:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Echo:
The problem here is that you get the Bible to fit your teachings rather than getting your teachings to fit the Bible. This is your grave error! This is idolatry. This is placing God last instead of first!
<hr /></blockquote>And as much as I hate to say it you too are doing the very same thing.

I've sat here in the backgrounds listening to this conversation go back and forth on Infant Baptism and in the background I've read and tried to see if there is any logic to this.

I'm sorry, I've listened to you say time and time again show me where it is in the Bible to others but when the same question is posed to you the best you can do is provide reference to verses that may or may not support your theory.

In every instance you have to imply, add to or make an assumption that an infant is to be included.

Joel hit the nail on the head with his comment about you holding others to a higher standard than yourself.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 07:49 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You're right, but nowhere does the Bible have an actual example of a baby being baptized. NO WHERE!<hr /></blockquote>The Bible says to Baptize ALL nations.
Generally the word means just that, it means "ALL"

If some where excluded,such as infants, the Bible would say so. Because it does not, all, including infants are included. The burden of proof therefore lies with all of you because you say that the word "all" does not mean what it says. PROVE IT. I am simply bowing down to the word that "all" means "all" You are the ones who are saying "all" means "not all"

Baptism is a washing and renewal in the Holy Spirit. This means that Baptism creates faith or strengthen's faith. Baptism is the gospel in sacrament.
Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

Children who are not baptized do not therefore have the new nature! Our old nature is inherited from Adam and our new nature comes when we have faith. Faith comes from the gospel in word or sacrament. Babies are renewed and reborn in Baptism.

John 3:7 "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'"

1 Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

John 3:3 "In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

The thief on the cross who did not get baptized was born again through the gospel message. Babies are born again in the Gospel sacrament of Baptism.

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 08:55 PM

The babie cannot accept Jesus into his heart though. Aslo, nowhere in the Bible does it say that John the Baptist knew God in the womb. Lastly, the theif on the corss could not have repented according to you. Remember, he was not a Christian and couldn't accept Jesus into his heart then. Plus, he was never baptized, therefore, he's still going to hell. BUT WAIT! WHAT'S THIS?! Jesus, although he never baptized the theif, said that he was comming to heaven. I'm sorry but Jesus must be in hell then too. Because of his disbelief in the baptizmal ritual.

Pwn3d

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 09:24 PM

Mouse

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Echo Quote:

Even in the Bible it says that those who never heard the gospel are still going to hell. Mind you, they have a lighter sentence.
I will try to find the verse and post it when I do.

Contradicting Echo quote:

God can work faith in babies hearts. John the Baptist had faith in the womb.
If we desire baptism for a child and the child dies before baptism, the child will be saved.<hr /></blockquote>It is not a contradiction.
You misunderstand.

Read my post last post above perhaps that will clarify it for you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Babies, as it has been proven, do not even hav e a concept of who they are. So how are they supposed to know about a God and Jesus and all of that? also, show me where it says that John the Baptist had faith in his mother's womb.<hr /></blockquote>luke 1:41-45 "41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

Psalm 8:2 "From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise because of your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger."

Infants who praise and leap for joy have faith.

Note this verse also, shows that those who don't believe in infant faith (the enemy, the foe, the avenger) are silenced by it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Echo, you may be a very nice person, but sometimes you need to think about some of the stuff you're hearing. You're no better right now than the terrorists. Or the IRA. Start thinking for yourself.<hr /></blockquote>What you are trying to do is to fit God into your reasoning. God is bigger than we could ever comprehend. He knows the beggining from the end. He can understand all things, we cannot. We simply cannot fit God into a mold that fits within our reasoning capabilities. God knew before any of us was born, who would be saved and who wouldn't. God is in control of all matters of life and in all matters around the world. Those who would be saved will be saved.
You must start out in the word and take the truth there as truth. Leave the rest up to God.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 09:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Here's another hypothetical.

Let's say a Wiccan, for social reasons, wants their baby baptized into WELS. What would WELS do? The parent is an unbeliever, but baptism is being offered the baby. However, the baby will be brought up to worship the Goddess and not God. What happens?<hr /></blockquote>Your scenario is far fetched.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Okay, let's just make it a nominal, non-saved Catholic that wants to baptize their baby into WELS to keep the family happy.<hr /></blockquote>We will baptize any infant by their parents desire. Even if the parent has the wrong motive, God still works through his sacrament of Baptism and creates faith in the babies heart. Wether the baby keeps that faith is between God and that baby.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 09:39 PM

The word "all" is not age or time specific and to endow it with such meaning is a stretch. "All" can be baptized and that can mean babies. OR "All" can be baptized and that can mean when they've reached an appropriate age. It's too vague of a word to reach the conclusion you are reaching with it.

Again you are obsessing over one verse or two when the overall message of the gospel in the Bible is clearly one of "Preach the gospel to all nations and baptize them." The preaching comes first. That's consistent throughout the book.

You've even quoted ad nauseum that "Faith cometh by the hearing of the word of God." You have to hear the word of God to gain faith. YOu get baptized after you've come to the faith.

You make the mistake of simply reading what the Bible says and not paying attention to what the people in the Bible actually do. People in the Bible do this:

They hear the word
They come to the faith
Then they get baptized.

That's the pattern the Bible gives us. It's not spelled out, but it is demonstrated time and time again.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 09:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You once demanded of me an example of Jesus praying to know if revealed truth was true, in order to justify an LDS doctrine. That's a pretty specific demand. Yet, you don't hold yourself to the same standard, by your own standard levied against me, you shouldn't allow for infant baptism unless you could find a specific example of it in the Bible, and you can't, so you all of a sudden make your standards less rigid for yourself.<hr /></blockquote>I am absolutely rigid on myself. The bible says "all" that means babies too. Like I said in my last post. The Bible says to Baptize ALL nations.
Generally the word means just that, it means "ALL"

If some where excluded,such as infants, the Bible would say so. Because it does not, all, including infants are included. The burden of proof therefore lies with all of you because you say that the word "all" does not mean what it says. PROVE IT. I am simply bowing down to the word that "all" means "all" You are the ones who are saying "all" means "not all"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If salvation is God's choice and not ours, then why does he extend his choice to some nations and not others? It doesn't make sense. If God's doing the work and we do nothing, then why hasn't everyone been converted?<hr /></blockquote>He extends his "CHOICE" to ALL nations. He works through his people to accomplish his ends. So if the word is not getting to all nations, the fault lies with people and not with Him.
Christians are commanded to preach to the world.
At the same time, unbelievers are also to blame:
The Bible says Acts 17:26 "26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'"

In the History of the Bible, the gospel has already been preached to the entire world 3 times.

Creation, Noah and when Jesus came. It is always men who refuse to believe and then spread that poison to others and the others believe them! Rather than checking it out for themselves!

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 09:47 PM

trustinginhim

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In every instance you have to imply, add to or make an assumption that an infant is to be included.

Joel hit the nail on the head with his comment about you holding others to a higher standard than yourself.<hr /></blockquote>I have answered your post in other posts. I hope you can find them.

What denomination are you?

To reject infant baptism is to reject Christ!
Why would you reject the best gift you could ever give your child? The free gift of God's love, forgiveness and eternal life?
It is no different than having an abortion! Or letting your child play on a busy highway!

ALl of you need to rethink how you interpret The Bible! I cannot understand your blindness! Why do you keep your children from the only good thing there is????????

God has commanded us to go and make disciples of ALL nations and you refuse to do what he wants??!!

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 09:53 PM

Joel

they can come to faith through hearing the gospel message OR through Baptism.

Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

What does this verse say Joel?
It says they are reborn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That means they now have faith. They have been REBORN!!!!! They have been RENEWED!!!

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 10:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />They hear the word
They come to the faith
Then they get baptized. <hr /></blockquote>This is not the pattern the Bible uses.

This is the pattern the Bible uses.

They hear the word
they come to faith
they baptise their WHOLE family

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 10:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />they baptise their WHOLE family<hr /></blockquote>The word "whole" is just like the word "all" and in no way can be assumed to be age or time specific. In other words it can just as easily be interpreted to mean that they baptized their "whole" family as the members thereof were able to make that decision for themselves. You need to prove that somehow in the cases you are citing, "all" and "whole" are age and time specific. In actuality, the Bible puts no time limit on when "all" should be baptized or when you should baptize your "whole" family. I guess you are saying that because it doesn't say anything it must mean immediately, when in actuality that is an assertion.

Titus 3:5 is completely and wildly taken out of context by you and you overlook that Titus, was converted as an adult through the efforts of Paul and his preaching of the word. So in reality, verse 5 here is merely assuming that the "hearing" and "coming to the faith" already occured prior to the "baptism" So the pattern remains the same.

The pattern is for each individual

1. hear the word
2. come to faith
3. be baptized

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To reject infant baptism is to reject Christ!<hr /></blockquote>Whoa!

So it's not just me
<blockquote>quote:<hr />ALl of you need to rethink how you interpret The Bible! <hr /></blockquote>Whoa!

I guess everyone who disagrees with WELS is going to Hell. I don't feel so lonely anymore, it'll be nice to know I can hang with Trusting, nab, Allen and others in Hell too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In the History of the Bible, the gospel has already been preached to the entire world 3 times.

Creation, Noah and when Jesus came. It is always men who refuse to believe and then spread that poison to others and the others believe them! Rather than checking it out for themselves!<hr /></blockquote>This is just plain crazy talk.

I agree with you at the creation, because you're talking about two people. The time of Noah? Not so sure. The time of Jesus? Unless you accept the basic premise of the Book of Mormon (that the gospel was preached by Prophets in lands that had no contact with Christ whatsoever) then this isn't true at all and in no way can be construed as such. If you reject the Book of Mormon, you can't possibly believe the Gospel was preached to the people's in the Americas, Southern Africa, and throughout Europe at the time of Christ.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 10:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I guess everyone who disagrees with WELS is going to Hell.<hr /></blockquote>No just you Joel.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 11:02 PM

But you said rejecting infant baptism is rejecting Christ.

Not "If Joel rejects infant baptism he's rejecting Christ."

You said "All of you need to rethink how you interpret the Bible."

Not "Joel needs to rethink how he interprets the Bible."

I think you're a victim of WELSian group-think.

Look I don't really have a problem if WELS says they are the only ones that are right. That's what Mormonism says. I think it actually shows backbone rather than the typical approach of disagreement all across the board, but as long as you believe in Jesus it's cool.

I guess it just looks like WELS is trying to have their cake and eat it too. In other words you want to be part of the Christian world and yet be the only ones who are right. In my opinion this is the reason most reject Mormonism as Christian, because we say all of you are wrong.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/16/05 11:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am absolutely rigid on myself. The bible says "all" that means babies too. Like I said in my last post. The Bible says to Baptize ALL nations.<hr /></blockquote>You're not rigid on yourself actually, you're very lax. You see, if you apply the standard you are using with the word "all" to "Ask and ye shall recieve" then it won't matter what I ask about and I can pray to know the truth. It simply says "Ask" and that would mean I can ask God anything.

I'm not saying that's what I believe, I'm just trying to show you your double standard of biblical interpretation.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/17/05 01:39 AM

life and death and reborn and saved and every other word pertaining to salvation are all spiritual words in meaning and context. baptism is physical . it does not save the soul anymore than a bath does. you have used the phrase above "reborn" to mean physical baptism, you have used the word regeneration to mean physical baptism when in fact in titus it means renewal of the soul, from the original word paliggenesisia. from palin which means again and from ginomai which mean to become. it its recovery, renovation, restoration. clearly different than you and wels intend it to be.
our basic theological difference is you and WELS believe an act of water and dedication by someone can save a soul. i and most of mainstream evangeical christianity beleive we are not held accountable until we are accountable and then we must choose whom we will serve.
clearly we will have to agree to disagree. i think you twist scripture and you believe i do.
i still must wonder about your position on the Baptism of the HOly GHost and spiritual gifts. I would to know what YOU believe and why. this goes for Joel and anyone else who has a foundation scripturally as to why you lean one way or the other.
nab

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/17/05 03:05 AM

Hey Joel, since I don't believe what she believes, I call the seat next to Nabster. He sound like an interesting guy. Hey Joel, try to get one next to me though. I've always wanted to see what what a Mormon looks like. Do you have horns? Lol, just messing.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/17/05 04:10 AM

YES THEY HAVE HORNS.....
....
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.TUBA, TROMBONE,TRUMPET, SHOFAR...HEHEHE
MORMON TABERNACLE CHOIR HAS A MASSIVE HORN SECTION....
HEY YOU CAN SIT NEXT TO ME...AS LONG AS YOU DONT MIND AN OCCASIONAL BREAKING OF THE PROVERBIAL WIND VIA THE ONE CHEEK

SNEAK......LOL...REALLY....I CRACK ME UP SOMETIMES WITH MY STUPID ADOLESCENT HUMOR...

Posted By: anangelsarms

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/17/05 03:48 PM

yeah, i know, and yall will be coming into hell some considerable time after i have already been there, remember i am catholic and we have reserved seating, season tickets if you will.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/17/05 03:50 PM

CLUB LEVEL? COME ON.

IT IS ABOUT YOUR HEART AND JESUS, NOT YOUR DENOMINATION.

Posted By: embie

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/17/05 05:24 PM

here's my $.02...

I think there has to be someone that's hungry or lonely or in need of some kindness that could benefit from the precious time being spent here. Our charge is to plant seeds, not to batter people into salvation. God is God and He has His timing, and one day every knee shall bow...

Baptism is the outward expression of an inword belief and trust in Jesus Christ.

...and Babies don't go to hell. We are only held accountable for the knowledge we are given about the gospel and Christ's salvation plan. Babies cannot reason, therefore, they are not accountable.

You know what...sometimes I think God just looks down on us and shakes His head...

Posted By: embie

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/17/05 05:25 PM

PS...Joel...I never knew how Christlike you really were...

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/17/05 06:24 PM

Joel

Once again you have put words in my mouth that I did not say. Could you please refrain from doing that? I did not say the others were going to Hell. You said that. I said that they are rejecting Christ. What I meant is that they reject Christ's command to Baptize all nations.

I am ending this topic, All of us have put forth both sides of the picture and nobody is changing their mind, so there is no point to continue.

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/18/05 01:42 AM

...But by doing this you are refusing to baptize us. And therefore, you're going to hell then?

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/18/05 04:51 AM

MOUSE,I DEEM THEE ANTAGONIZER....

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/18/05 05:56 PM

And I accept my role willingly. Everyone who knows me calls me "the classic antagonist". Anyways, I WOULD like an answer to my question Echo, if possible.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/18/05 06:23 PM

Mouse

Which question? Wether I am refusing to baptize you?

Mouse, if you or anyone really wanted to learn, I would answer questions till I am blue in the face! But nobody has shown an interest to continue and Joel is just out to stir up contention as is clear by his personal attacks and disrespect of me as a person. If you are truly interested to learn more, tell me and I will continue. I think it is important for people to discuss their differences in order that we come together into unity. I listen to the views of others too!But the Bible is always the source of wether somthing is truth or not.

I don't go to Hell for knowing when ears are closed and knowing when to walk away from a conversation. Joel is stirring up contention. Joel puts words in my mouth saying that I said everyone was going to hell. An look how they all reacted! That is exactly what he wants! So I decided it is time to end it.

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/18/05 08:34 PM

Look, all I want to know is this. Why do you think that you're going to heaven while everyone else, including some who believe in Christ are going to hell? Can you give me a list of things according to you, that send us to hell? It just seems that you're damming quite a lot when only God should ****. You even said before, I cannot judge your heart, it isn't up to me to do it. So why would you say to Joel that he is going to hell? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Also, by saying that babies go to hell, you're judging their hearts. An that, according to you, isn;t right either. So basically I'm just a tad bit confused here.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/18/05 10:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why do you think that you're going to heaven while everyone else, including some who believe in Christ are going to hell? <hr /></blockquote>You see, you have fallen for Joel's interpretation of what I said. Nobody who believe's in the true Christ goes to Hell. Joel does not believe in the true Christ.

Joel is the one who said that I said everyone was going to hell, I did not say it. You believed him and he twisted the meaning of what I said. This is his intent! To get everyone against me by secretly twisting what I am saying. This is his intent! And everyone bought into it! This is precisely what he wants!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can you give me a list of things according to you, that send us to hell?<hr /></blockquote>Unbelief in the true Jesus, sends us to Hell.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You even said before, I cannot judge your heart, it isn't up to me to do it. So why would you say to Joel that he is going to hell? <hr /></blockquote>When I say you cannot judge someone's heart, it means that if someone tells you they love and care about you and you say back to them: "no you don't you hate me" you have judged that persons heart! Clearly they said that they do and you choose not to believe them. On the other hand, if someone says things to you in hate, you would not be wrong to judge their heart as hating you.
The Bible says that out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks! You can judge what is in a persons heart by what they say. But to call them a liar, when their words say the opposite, is wrongful judging of the heart. Does that make clearer what I meant?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So why would you say to Joel that he is going to hell?<hr /></blockquote>I am not judging Joel's heart when I tell him he is going to Hell. He is being "decieved" into going to Hell. He is not on purpose or intentionally wanting to go there. It is not about his heart and its condition. He is a prisoner who needs rescue!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Also, by saying that babies go to hell, you're judging their hearts. <hr /></blockquote>The Bible teaches that we are all sinners and we are desperately wicked. We hate God and are his enemies and on and on. No one is excluded. This is our sinful nature, our new nature does not come until we are born again. Therefore, as God's enemies we stand under the judgement of the law which condemns all of us to Hell. Without being born again and being cleansed of our sin, we will indeed suffer the consequences of our sin. God is not accountable to man for who is saved and who is not. Man is accountable to God! You have to remember that God is in control and he will do what is right in all situations! Nothing that comes about in the end will in any way be unjust or unmerciful. Even if we can't see how that is possible from our limited perspective! That is the problem here in this thread, everyone tries to view it from thier limited perspective! But the Bible clearly teaches that we MUST be BORN AGAIN to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Clearly that excludes those who are not.

I understand your confusion Mouse and I am glad that you are at least trying to put it together so that is makes sense! That is a good thing! Sometimes it takes an enormous amount of thinking and reading the Bible over and over until it clicks in. Things don't always make sense in the beginning but bit by bit they come together.
You always need to keep in mind that God can see the whole picture from begginning to end and that he is in control of everything. You have to remember that he is just and merciful and he IS love. Nothing in the end will be unjust or unmerciful. Even if we can't see how that is possible now.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/20/05 06:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Joel is the one who said that I said everyone was going to hell, I did not say it.<hr /></blockquote>You said,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To reject infant baptism is to reject Christ!<hr /></blockquote>and you didn't say it in response to a Mormon post. It was in response to Trusting Him's failed attempt at trying to get you to see reason.

As I understand Christianity, rejecting Christ is a one way ticket to Hell. Am I wrong?

So, as you put it, anyone who rejects infant baptism, rejects Christ, and therefore will go to Hell.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I didn't twist your words. I quoted you directly.

If you're worried about what people will think of what you write, then maybe you should be more careful about the way you write it. It would save you the misplaced righteous indignation you're trying to show against me.

I did no twisting.

I had no intent other than calling a spade a spade.

According to what you wrote. If you don't believe in infant baptism, you are rejecting Christ. I'll quote it again

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To reject infant baptism is to reject Christ!<hr /></blockquote>I almost forgot. All of us are wrong in our interpretation of the Bible and you are the only one that is right.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ALl of you need to rethink how you interpret The Bible!<hr /></blockquote>You didn't write "Joel needs to rethink..." you wrote "All of you."

Don't try to blame it on me. That would be hypocritical, however that shouldn't be surprising from a follower of pharisaical tactics.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/20/05 06:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So, as you put it, anyone who rejects infant baptism, rejects Christ, and therefore will go to Hell. <hr /></blockquote>We reject Christ whenever we sin. Does that mean we are going to Hell? NO

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I didn't put words in your mouth, I didn't twist your words. I quoted you directly.<hr /></blockquote>I did not say anyone was going to Hell.
You put those words in my mouth.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/20/05 07:40 PM

Then where is the dividing line?

According to you, the way I, Joel33, reject Christ, will send me to Hell. For some unfathomable reason, that doesn't apply to the way anyone else here rejects Christ.

Moreover, If the way I interpret the Bible is wrong and leading me to Hell, then why isn't the fact that you think everyone else on this forum is interpreting the Bible incorrectly similarly leading them to Hell, like it is for me?

Just be honest. You think that WELS has the entire truth of the Gospel and that everyone else falls short in some way. Don't worry, that doesn't offend me, because I think the same way. I just think you're afraid to say it, because you feel it will undermine the validity of your beliefs. Don't worry about that, your faulty reasoning, superior attitude, self-righteousness and unreasonable approach to dialogue has already undermined the validity of your beliefs.

Posted By: embie

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 12:11 AM

You guys have got to step back and breathe.

Posted By: embie

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 12:13 AM

Hey Joel...do Mormons believe that satan is alive and well?

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 02:13 AM

Embie

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If anyone does in fact believe the bible, you have to then acknowledge that our struggles are not with flesh and bone, but with principalities.

It's the enemy that causes confusion and division, and right now, I think he's quite pleased. <hr /></blockquote>This is what I have told Joel from the beggining. And more than once! That I am not his enemy and he is not my enemy. That Satan is our enemy and that we should walk through this together until we come to unity and defeat our enemy the devil.But clearly his is unwilling.

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 02:42 AM

Echo, please respond to Joel's post. I am intrigued as to how you do.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 03:04 AM

Mouse

Joel is not going to heaven as of yet because he believes what the jews believed. That they can gain eternal life by works.

Here are some quotes from the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 31 intro:

"Repentance and Baptism are the gate to the strait and narrow path-Eternal life comes to those who keep the commandments after Baptism."

the articles of faith it says this:

"We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."

Alma Chapter 5 Intro:

"To gain salvation, men must repent and keep the commandments, be born again, cleanse their garments through the blood of Christ, be humble and strip themselves from pride and envy, and do the works of righteousness..."

The Bible contradicts all these statements:

Romans 9:30-32 " 30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Phillipians 3:8,9 "8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ�the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."

Romans 3:27,28 "27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

Eph 2:8,9 "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God� 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:3 "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness."

Romans 4:6 "God credits righteousness apart from works"

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done but because of his mercy"

Galatians 2:16 "16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

Faith actually means that we simply believe that Jesus has given us eternal life. Apart from anything we do. Joel does not believe this, therefore his faith is really not faith. He believes that he must be obedient to all God's laws(commandments) in order to GAIN ETERNAL LIFE.

We believe eternal life depends soley on God's mercy. His love for sinful mankind.

Joel relies on observing the law and so he is under a curse:

The Bible says "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Galatians 3:10

Jesus tells us what happens to those who are cursed:

Mathew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

They go to hell to spend eternity with the devil and his angels. This means Joel unless he begins to believe the truth. But he refuses to listen to me.

This is why I am very concerned about Joel. But he refuses to believe me, that is his choice and it really makes me feel overwhelmed for his sake.
But I am not going to post with him anymore unless he is willing to do this in a peaceful way and stop the personal attacks. I want peace and he wants war. He fails to understand that I am not his enemy and he is not my enemy. He fails to understand that Satan is our enemy. If he understood this he would be more than willing to do this peacefully without all the personal attacks.He is unwilling. And so there is nothing I can do for him. Nor he for me.

Hope that answers your questions Mouse.

.

.

Posted By: SenorElMouse

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 03:40 AM

So you do not believe in good works.

I mean, good works don;t get you into heaven so you shouldn't do good works. In fact, taking what you say for truth, evil works gets you into heaven.

Thank you Satan, I think I'll have another bite of that twinkie.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 04:07 AM

MOUSE

Joel will argue what I am saying. He says these verses I quoted are Old Testament. But the BOM also teaches that the Gospel was preached to those in the OT, so he can't use that explanation because if they knew the gospel, they would no longer follow the OT covenant. Not only this, but their statement of faith also says we gain salvation by obedience. They can't cover over that one. That is a current statement.

Not to mention, the NT actually tells us that the Gospel has only been revealled in the NT. And that it was hidden in the OT. So the LDS clearly contradicts scripture once again.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 04:17 AM

Mouse

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So you do not believe in good works.

I mean, good works don;t get you into heaven so you shouldn't do good works. In fact, taking what you say for truth, evil works gets you into heaven.<hr /></blockquote>Good works naturally flow from a heart that already has the gaurentee of Eternal life by the mercy of God alone. We do good works out of love and thanks to such a wonderful God. But our works have nothing to do with our Salvation and entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

Does that clarify?

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 04:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This is why I am very concerned about Joel. But he refuses to believe me, that is his choice and it really makes me feel overwhelmed for his sake.<hr /></blockquote>You are very offbase here. I don't have a problem with your beliefs. In fact, I largely agree with them. It is you who refuses to believe what I say about my belief and faith system. It is you who refuses to consider Mormonism as a whole and continues to focus on the minutae.

The message of Mormonism as a whole, in regards to salvation is summed up nicely like this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Good works naturally flow from a heart that already has the gaurentee of Eternal life by the mercy of God alone. We do good works out of love and thanks to such a wonderful God. But our works have nothing to do with our Salvation and entrance into the kingdom of heaven. <hr /></blockquote>Does that clarify?

This is becoming ludicrous to the point of absurd.

I guess I don't believe that I'm saved by Jesus, because, again obviously, someone who isn't me, knows better what I believe.

As I've said numerous times. WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND THE EXTENSION OF HIS GRACE INTO OUR LIVES. Our good works come from the natural desire of the faithful to be obedient to God's commands.

Works like baptism are no more or less required by Mormons than they are by WELS.

Keeping the commandments, doesn't help God in any way, rather, keeping the commandments helps us and shows our love for Jesus, outwardly.

Quote the Book of Mormon out of context all you want. It's like they say, you can't make a tiger change it's stripes. So I guess, you'll never listen and you'll simply continue to beat the drum of false accusation against Mormonism.

It's rather pathetic really.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 04:48 PM

Let me put it another way Echo, I don't believe in the version of Mormonism you present.

I simply don't. That won't change no matter how much you think I do.

I also don't believe you present an accurate picture of LDS doctrine in regard to the faith and works question and many other questions.

If you persist in believing that your version of Mormonism is the official one, then I guess I'll accept your assertions for the sake of making peace.

Steve, once said that he thought there were many Mormons who, because of their faith in Christ, would be "accidentally saved."

Well, here you go, you've found a Mormon who doesn't believe in the version of Mormonism you present. Maybe I'm simply "accidentally saved" because I actually believe that I am saved by grace. I actually believe that my works merely glorify God and have no saving power. I actually believe that works are merely the sincerest expression of my faith in Christ.

I won't conceed that your version of Mormonism is an accurate portrayal. But I will state unequivocally, that I do not believe in your version of Mormonism.

You should be happy. I don't believe my works save me, I believe Jesus does. If that makes me a non-Mormon in your book then fine. I don't believe it's "your book" that matters, but rather the "book of life."

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 09:27 PM

Joel, it's not that I am trying to quote somthing out of context. I am simply putting my head to work to understand the BOM.

I have been thinking latley however that it is actually possible that you have a genuine saving faith. You do read the Bible after all. And perhaps you do have a genuine saving faith, but that still does not mean that all LDS do. I am concerned with those who are NOT saved. So when I read the BOM, I come to the conclusion I come to. Would that not then mean then that other LDS would come to the same conclusion that I do?

Also, It is important to me to be sure that you have saving faith. In the event you really don't.
Don't be offended. What I mean is that I care about you enough to question you about things, to feel comfortable in my own head that you indeed have saving faith. I do that because I want the assurance that you are saved. Okay? That is what freinds do for friends, don't you think?

Can we continue our conversation in the Mormon thread in a peaceful and loving way, not attacking one another, but focusing on doctrine alone? Like good freinds looking out for one another? Can we begin anew?

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 10:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have been thinking latley however that it is actually possible that you have a genuine saving faith. You do read the Bible after all. And perhaps you do have a genuine saving faith, but that still does not mean that all LDS do. I am concerned with those who are NOT saved. So when I read the BOM, I come to the conclusion I come to. Would that not then mean then that other LDS would come to the same conclusion that I do?<hr /></blockquote>Can you also accept that people can read the Bible and come to the wrong conclusion about faith and works? Can you also accept that if there may be Mormons with saving faith, that there may actually be WELSians without saving faith?

Every religion has followers and fakers.

I don't really care if you know that I have saving faith or not. It doesn't matter to me. I know where I stand with God and that is enough.

I do have a vested interest in people accepting that Mormonism is a valid means of approaching God. Equally valid as any other faith tradition. Doctrinal differences are much easier to discuss when everyone involved takes the attitude of "you may be right, or I may be right, let's talk about it." rather than "you're wrong, you don't even know what you believe and you're going to Hell." and I feel pretty strongly that you've demonstrated the second attitude fairly consistently.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 11:35 PM

Joel

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can you also accept that people can read the Bible and come to the wrong conclusion about faith and works? Can you also accept that if there may be Mormons with saving faith, that there may actually be WELSians without saving faith?

Every religion has followers and fakers.<hr /></blockquote>I totally agree that thier are fakers in all churchs, Even the Bible says so. That is not what I meant. The people whom I am reffering are those who genuinley are God seekers, and having genuine god-seekers fall prey to false teaching.
I am not talking about those who attend the LDS or WELS who could care less.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't really care if you know that I have saving faith or not. It doesn't matter to me. I know where I stand with God and that is enough.<hr /></blockquote>You don't care if you don't have saving faith???
I understand totally that you believe you do have saving faith. I understand that. But supposing you didn't, would you not want me to help you have saving faith? I assume you would want the same for me?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do have a vested interest in people accepting that Mormonism is a valid means of approaching God. Equally valid as any other faith tradition.<hr /></blockquote>I understand what you are saying. I do! But, I myself do not see it as a valid means of approaching God. I know you disagree. That is okay. I am not trying to offend you, but if I believe Mormonism is not valid, and lets just suppose I am right for the sake of my explanation. Can I, with a clear conscience allow you to think it is?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Doctrinal differences are much easier to discuss when everyone involved takes the attitude of "you may be right, or I may be right, let's talk about it." rather than "you're wrong, you don't even know what you believe and you're going to Hell." and I feel pretty strongly that you've demonstrated the second attitude fairly consistently.<hr /></blockquote>This would make it much easier, I do agree. My problem however is that I don't think I am wrong and neither do you. So, I don't really understand how we can take that approach when we both feel we are right??? Any ideas? I am open to ideas?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />rather than "you're wrong, you don't even know what you believe and you're going to Hell." and I feel pretty strongly that you've demonstrated the second attitude fairly consistently.<hr /></blockquote>Joel, I guess my words about you going to Hell offended you? I never intended to offend you. I know it sounds harsh to say that to someone, but you must understand that I say it in love for your soul. "IF" I am right,lets suppose, then it would truly be loving to warn you don't you think? "IF" I am right and you are going to Hell, would you not want that warning to somehow open your eyes so that you may avoid going there? Can a person get the life saving operation they need if they don't know they need the surgery?
I certainly meant not to offend. I mean my motives were definately for your good even though it came across wrong and offended you. Do you see what I am saying?

I would really like to be friends, I hope we can find a way to be successful at talking to one another without hurting one another.

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/21/05 11:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You don't care if you don't have saving faith???<hr /></blockquote>That's not what I said. I said I don't care if you know or believe I have saving faith or not.

as for the rest, I've given you this tip before, but telling people that they are Hell-bound is not an effective means of witnessing, however true it may or may not be. It always comes off as judgemental, it always comes off as condescending, it alwasy comes off as self-righteous and arrogant.

As for being friends? again, I don't really care if we are or not. As long as you actually demonstrate the respect and tolerance you claim to have been demonstrating.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/22/05 04:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />as for the rest, I've given you this tip before, but telling people that they are Hell-bound is not an effective means of witnessing, however true it may or may not be. It always comes off as judgemental, it always comes off as condescending, it alwasy comes off as self-righteous and arrogant.<hr /></blockquote>Does it still come across that way after I have explained that it is like telling someone that they need life saving surgery?

How about if I explain it this way...
If you have a glass of water and a glass of draino. Would it be self-righteous, judgemental and arrogant if I told you not to drink the draino because it would kill you?

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/22/05 04:04 PM

The analogy in and of itself is offensive and condescending.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/22/05 04:48 PM

????????????

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/22/05 05:00 PM

Think about it, you are comparing my faith to a life threatening illness or drinking a glass of drano.

That doesn't give a person warm fuzzies.

I served a mission for my church for two years in Norway. I was able to see much conversion in those two years.

I never led with "you're going to Hell if you don't join my church."

That is alienating.

Posted By: NABSTER

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/22/05 06:58 PM

how about, you have an illness a silent, but fatal one, not physical but spiritual. The medicine for a complete cure is .....
and i happen to know
where you can find all the medicine you want.
by the way the people providing the medicine say it is also free, all you have to do is take it.
i used to have a similar problem and it has totally cured me %100.
do you wish to know the medicine?
it also cures instantly....would you like to know?

Posted By: Joel33

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/22/05 07:23 PM

Look us Mormons do have some trade secrets for effective witnessing.

If y'all play nice I'll agree to share them.

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/23/05 05:45 PM

Will try

Posted By: Echo

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - 12/24/05 01:19 AM

Here is the question/answer from the WELS Q&A on infants going or not going to Hell.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />QUESTION:

Does God send infants who have not been baptized to Hell?
According to everything we believe, it seems that he does. But then Jesus said "let the little Children come to me and do not hinder them for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Mathew 19:14) and " I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven...
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me..." (Mathew 18:3-5)
When I read these passages, I get the impression that "all" children have faith and are born with it. That somehow they lose faith as they grow up and begin to believe otherwise.
Look at the example of John the Baptist, clearly he had faith in the womb.
Babies have a natural dependence on parents to do everything for them, to take care of them and guide them and love them unconditionally. Babies cannot help but understand the relationship between God and Man because they are helpless to do anything else. It is when the children mature, that this gets lost. Do you see what I am saying?
Psalm 22:9,10 "Yet you brought me out of the womb: you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From Birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God"
This Psalm suggests also that faith begins in the womb."from my mother's womb YOU HAVE BEEN MY GOD" and trust in God at the Mother's breast. And John the Baptist is another example of this when he lept in the womb.
Is is possible that we are all born with faith and then when it is not nurtured (as in an unbelieving family) it gets lost?
I am thinking also that being "born again" is being brought to faith through the word.
So could that mean that the first birth (our natural birth)came with faith also, but faith gets lost when not nurtured and so by a second birth through the word, faith comes?
I mean if the "born again" brings faith, why not the "natural" birth also? It does say "AGAIN" Which also suggests that faith may have come in the womb.
These passages seem to suggest that they do.
What are your thoughts?

ANSWER:

Allow me to respond to your initial question first. Scripture does not answer this question. Whether these young lives were lost through miscarriage, abortion, or stillbirth, God doesn't tell us whether they are saved or lost. We simply entrust them into the hands of a loving God knowing that he will do what is just and right.
However, your question goes beyond the fate of an unbaptized infant. You wonder whether they have faith from the moment of conception. The scriptural teaching of original sin would make this impossible. While a passage like Psalm 22:10 (written by David) would seem to indicate that they might have faith from the womb, we have to put this passage alongside of Psalm 51:5 (also written by David) where David says that he was guilty before God from the moment of his conception. David would hardly stress this point in Psalm 51:5 if he had saving faith, for such a faith means that person is declared not guilty.
Again, we have to put a passage like Psalm 22:10 alongside of Genesis 8:21 which states that the "every inclination of a person's heart is evil from childhood" and Romans 3:23 which says that "all (this would include infants) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Another point to consider is that Scripture indicates that God works faith through the gospel in various forms (Word of God and the Sacraments). We call this the means of grace because it is the means God uses to give us the gracious message of forgiveness through Christ. These are the means he uses to work and strengthen faith in our hearts.
Romans 10:17 says that "faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the Word of Christ."
1 Peter 3:21 states that baptism saves, and Matthew 26:28 tells us that the Lord's Supper gives us the forgiveness of sins.
These are means that God gives us to proclaim the gospel to people, including infants and children. We baptise them and we teach them the truths of God's Word. However, God has not given us any clear means of grace for the unborn. If he chooses to work faith in the heart of an unborn child apart from these normal means, he can certainly do so. But he has not revealed to us that he does and this would be an exception to the rule. John the Baptist was such an exception. In Luke 1:15 the angel told Zechariah that his son would be "filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth." This would indicate that John's situation was unique and different.
So what do we know from Scripture? We know that children are sinful from the moment of conception and that because of this sin they deserve eternal punishment. We know that God has not given us a clear means of grace to work saving faith in the hearts of the unborn. Yet we know that God can work outside of the unusual means he gives us. For this reason we are cautious about saying anything more than that about the fate of the unborn who die before birth.<hr /></blockquote>