I love it when new folks show up and don't read anything that I've ever input into this thread - at least check out a couple of pages back - before they assume that I'm some brainwashed moron.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">there is not stand alone basis for the book of mormon. the "stand alone" basis is the Bible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe not, but there is grammar.

I wasn't asking nabster to reject the Bible - I believe fully in the Bible. I was asking him to set aside the rest of what he believes about Mormonism - pretend he's never heard of it and just read the Book of Mormon - in other words, read it on a stand alone basis. Not to judge it from the pantheon of what has been said about Mormons, but to just read that one book.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the book of mormon has no influence from God at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">have you read it? Did God tell you that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">None of the cities have been found mentioned in the BoM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I beg to differ. Have you ever heard of any ancient civilizations that existed in South America? I have. In fact there have been many discoveries pointing to the Book of Mormons legitimacy and nothing to discredit it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Joseph Smith used a seering stone to find the golden tablets?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is inaccurate and not something that Joseph ever claimed. The account of how Joseph found the record that became the Book of Mormon is actually printed within the first ten pages of the Book of Mormon </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> sounds pretty cultish.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">actually it sounds pretty uninformed and ignorant of the real facts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joseph Smith claimed he translated the BoM from old egyptian writings, turns out the writings were common funeral texts of the day.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">wrong again. The Book of Mormon was translated from the Golden Plates and they were taken from him by an angel after the translation work was completed. Charcoal rubbings of the plates were actually given to leading linguistic authorities in Joseph Smith's day along with a translation of those rubbings. The scholars who saw them certified that the rubbings were authentic and the translation correct. In fact, one of them wanted to translate the record himself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also he called the BoM the most "complete" book. but then he came out with two other books, The Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, he said it was the most "correct" book, not the most "complete" I'm sure you don't need a dictionary to tell the difference between those two things. Oh yeah, that statement is also quoted in the introduction of the Book of Mormon. More evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Theres so much more i could write but i left the book i usually refer to at home 7 hours away >_<

but its called "Bruce and Stan's Guide to Cults, Religions, Spiritual Beliefs: A User-Friendly Approach"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bruce and Stan? you've got to be kidding me. I'd be more likely to take advice from "Click and Clack" the car guys on NPR every Saturday than from Bruce and Stan. I certainly hope you are misquoting them, because if you're quoting them directly either they've intentionally mislead folks or they do shoddy research.

http://www.19thhole.com/cgi-bin/ae.pl?asinsearch=0736901523

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">very good book. joel step back and do some research on how mormonism was founded. none of it is biblical.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks for the advice MattyG - I can see that your research has been anything but thorough, so clearly you are a fount of all knowledge.

Back to the point at hand - set aside the other stuff you've heard and all the crap MattyG just spewed and read the Book of Mormon. Start there.

the only crap around here is the book of mormon

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

so the book of mormon is > the Bible?

also wasnt smith the only one who saw the gold plates?

start with the Bible, end with the Bible

If God was inspiring the translation process of the Book of Mormon, why were 4,000 changes necessary? http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/changes.shtml

Why was the Book of Mormon cast into the KJV style? "...there is a continual use of the 'thee', 'thou' and 'ye', as well as the archaic verb endings 'est' (second person singular) and 'eth' (third person singular). Since the Elizabethan style was not Joseph's natural idiom, he continually slipped out of this King James pattern and repeatedly confused the norms as well. Thus he lapsed from 'ye' (subject) to 'you' (object) as the subject of sentences (e.g. 'Mos. 2:19; 3:34; 4:24), jumped from plural ('ye') to singular ('thou') in the same sentence (Mos. 4:22) and moved from verbs without endings to ones with endings (e.g. 'yields . . . putteth,' 3:19)." (The Use of the Old Testament in the Book of Mormon, by Wesley P. Walters, 1990, page 30).

Why were cliched Indian phrases like "Nine Moons" in (Omni 1:21) or "Great Spirit" in (Alma 19:25-27) included?

What was the purpose in Moroni taking the plates back? Why couldn't Joseph at least been able to copy down the characters on the plates so that future generations could hopefully verify the characters' authenticity? Similarly, what ever happened to the parchment written by John of the New Testament and why would a translated document have to undergo a "re-translation" between its publication in the Book of Commandments and D&C 7? Why weren't the supposed writings of Abraham (which were actually common funerary texts dating much later than the time Abraham was claimed to have lived) also taken similarly back? (http://www.lds-mormon.com/abraham.shtml)

How could Hebrew show up in a document that was supposed to be a translation of Egyptian? (http://www.lds-mormon.com/boanames.shtml)

# Why are themes of the revolutionary war and patriotism (liberty, freedom, country, religion, flags, etc.) woven throughout a book supposedly written over a thousand years before the revolutionary war?
# Why is an agrarian society similar to the society Joseph was most familiar with described as the setting for the entire book?
# Why is a democracy after a monarchy described? (Mosiah 23, 29) - (Similar to the history of the U.S.)
# Is it purely coincidental that there was much speculation in Joseph Smith's area about Indian Mounds and battles?
# Why does the Book of Mormon describe wood forts with pickets to protect people--much like the forts of frontier?
# Is it purely coincidental that Lehi had six sons as did Joseph Smith Sr.? (Sam/Samuel were sons of both; Nephi and Joseph Smith Jr. were similar)
# Why did Mormon, Nephi and other "heroes" of the Book of Mormon have so many common traits with Joseph Smith? (large in stature, had visions while a teenager, etc. -- see The Refiner's Fire by John Brooke and Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon for many more similarities)
# Why does the Book of Mormon repeatedly addresses 19th century readers?
# Why is the anti-Masonic excitement that arose near Smith's home in 1827 reflected? (Gadianton Robbers / Secret Combos)
# Why is infant baptism (a much discussed issue in the early 19th century) condemned in Chapter 8 of Moroni?

Why do so many stories seem like exaggerated borrowings from the Bible?
Examples:
Ammon killed six sheep rustlers with a sling (Alma 17:36) vs. David's killing of Goliath. (1 Samuel 17:50)
Pillar of Fire. (Exodus 13:21) vs. (1 Nephi 1:6)
Lord instructs Noah to build the Ark (Genesis 6:14) / Lord instructs Nephi to build ship (1 Nephi 17:8) / Lord instructs Jaredites to build barges (Ether 2:16)
Jaredites brought flocks, two of a kind, seeds. (Ether 2:1) vs. Noah doing the same in (Genesis 7:9)
Raising dead. (Matthew 10:8) vs. (3 Nephi 19:4)
Temple of Solomon supposedly took 180,000 people seven and a half years to build (1 Kings 5, 6) / The few in number Nephites supposedly did it in less than 20 years after arriving (2 Nephi 5).
Calming Storm (1 Nephi 18:8-21) vs. (Matthew 8:23-27).
Men in Fire (Helaman 5:22-24) vs. (Daniel 3).
Feeding Multitude (3 Nephi 20:3-7) out of nothing / In Bible, Christ multiplied existing food (Matthew 14).
Christ heals masses in Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 17:9) / in Bible Jesus healed as he encountered (Luke 9:42).
Multitude feels wounds in Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 11:13) / In Bible, Thomas felt wounds (John 20:27).
Book of Mormon prophecies of Christ specific / Bible prophecies veiled (actually non-existent unless scripture misquoted or "prophecies" stretched to have two meanings).
Book of Mormon Christ is completely accepted / In Bible he is rejected.
Aminadi deciphered writing on the wall (Alma 10:2-3) like Daniel (Daniel 5).
Daughter of Jared danced before the king (Ether 8) like the daughter of Herodias (Matthew 14) (decapitation followed in both cases).
Daughters of Lamanites abducted like the daughters of Shiloh.
Jews of Old Testament were monotheists / Pre-Christ Jews of Book of Mormon were not.


here you can look at the rest, im tired. http://www.lds-mormon.com/bomquest.shtml

Whoa now ye-who-knows-nothing-of-other-peoples-religion-so-he-would-be-wise-to-shut-his-mouth-before-he-sounds-like-a-braying-donkey; Joseph Smith showed them to quite a few people before they were stolen. He showed them to not only his friends and believers but also to scholors and ATHEIST SCIENTISTS as well. They all concluded that the dates and ages of these plates were indeed as old as he made them out to be.

You can start with the Bible and end with the Bible, and also leave out be the most narrow-sighted person on this sight. Even nabster recognized the need for udated laws and regulations in today's world.

So, in the future, let not your ingorance rain like water again, and think or check stuff out before you post.

Edit: Good gravey, your most recent post has placed your foot squarely into your mouth... yet again. If you want me to raise every single solitary misquote and problem with the text in the Bible (because there are oh so many of them), them I shall. If not, then keep quiet about the Mormon faith.

That's a little rough on the new person Mouse... there's nothing "narrow-sighted" about letting the Bible be your only source of spiritual knowledge - if it's studied then that's actually quite a good choice.

And Matty did raise a few questions in his last post that weren't answered earlier. Tho we *don't* call someone else's religion "crap" - no matter how much we might want to Joel really is a good guy, even if we think he is mis-guided - so please do not resort to name-calling, thanks.

Matty , mouse and Joel, go dtand in the corner...you are in time out....
Just kiddin.
Matty, do read some debates in Mormon thread. You will where Joel stands(me too). Mouse, you should read it too. Joel I am getting a book of Mormon, gonna read it. part of my bias comes from some of my friends who have left the Mormon church and have given me their personal insight and story. not a catchall for all Mormons and by no means would they speak for all. Just is where some of my bais comes from as well. Going out o town a couple days, new job...back in a few.
nabster

Allen, I'm touched, really I am.

As for the rest, Here we go....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
If God was inspiring the translation process of the Book of Mormon, why were 4,000 changes necessary? http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/changes.shtml
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As mouse ably pointed out, I think you'll find that the Bible has had many changes as well. The changes in the Bible iin most cases don't alter doctrine, rather they clarify matters.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why was the Book of Mormon cast into the KJV style? "...there is a continual use of the 'thee', 'thou' and 'ye', as well as the archaic verb endings 'est' (second person singular) and 'eth' (third person singular).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't get it? Is something false if it's written in this style? I don't know where that rule came from. I suppose it would have been more acceptable had the Book of Mormon been written in Jive? What if it had been written with a phoenetically spelled out version of Valley-girl speach? Would those have been somehow more true because they didn't follow the pattern of speach used in the KJV?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Since the Elizabethan style was not Joseph's natural idiom, he continually slipped out of this King James pattern and repeatedly confused the norms as well. Thus he lapsed from 'ye' (subject) to 'you' (object) as the subject of sentences (e.g. 'Mos. 2:19; 3:34; 4:24), jumped from plural ('ye') to singular ('thou') in the same sentence (Mos. 4:22) and moved from verbs without endings to ones with endings (e.g. 'yields . . . putteth,' 3:19)." (The Use of the Old Testament in the Book of Mormon, by Wesley P. Walters, 1990, page 30).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll think you'll find the same lapses in the OT and NT - I find plenty of instances therein where ye and you are used interchangeably. I don't think when Joseph stated that "the Book of Mormon" was the most "correct" book he was referring to it as a reference source for grammar. Rather I think he was referring to the doctrines it held.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why were cliched Indian phrases like "Nine Moons" in (Omni 1:21)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Many ancient cultures measured time by the lunar cycle. I don't see how that would make the record false.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> or "Great Spirit" in (Alma 19:25-27) included?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, I don't really see how this would make the record false. It seems more like a red herring to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What was the purpose in Moroni taking the plates back? Why couldn't Joseph at least been able to copy down the characters on the plates so that future generations could hopefully verify the characters' authenticity?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joseph did copy down the characters and their authenticity has been verified. I think I already posted that. As for what purpose Moroni had in taking back the plates - I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but I think the purpose was two-fold. Belief in the Book of Mormon is more profound as it is rooted in faith as opposed to being able to see the hard copy original. The second reason is that as long as Joseph had the record in his posession attempts were made on his life to steal the plates from him for monetary gain. So why not take them away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Similarly, what ever happened to the parchment written by John of the New Testament and why would a translated document have to undergo a "re-translation" between its publication in the Book of Commandments and D&C 7?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doctrine and Covenants 7 is a written account of a revelation, there is no claim that the parchment was ever in the posession of Joseph Smith. Rather it was revealed to him.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Why weren't the supposed writings of Abraham (which were actually common funerary texts dating much later than the time Abraham was claimed to have lived) also taken similarly back? (http://www.lds-mormon.com/abraham.shtml)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the papyri that made up the Book of Abraham did not come into Joseph's hands by divine means as did the Book of Mormon. As for whether or not they were actually common funerary texts. The existing papyri include only one of the three figures that relate to the Book of Abraham. If two-thirds of the figures are missing, how can anyone honestly maintain that we have the entire set of scrolls? Some critics often make it sound as if the full set of papyri used to translate the Book of Abraham have been found, not letting the reader know that at least some of it is missing. In fact only 13% of what Joseph Smith originally had in his posession remains to be found today. For more on the book of Abraham see Jeff Lindsay's site - http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml#source

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How could Hebrew show up in a document that was supposed to be a translation of Egyptian? (http://www.lds-mormon.com/boanames.shtml)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps it was because Abraham was one of the ancient patriarchs of the Hebrew nation? I don't really know, nor do I think it matters. Rather I would see that as more evidence of it being correct. The site you point to says its because Joseph Smith happened to be studying Hebrew at the time. Good for him, that neither detracts from or enforces the claim that somehow Hebrew words showing up in an egyptian text, make something false. Moreover, the words referred to are place names. If the place names were Hebrew places, then why should they change in an Egyptian text. Just because the Capital of Norway is named Oslo and that's Norwegian, it doesn't mean that we call it Norway-ville in English, we use the Norwegian name.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Why are themes of the revolutionary war and patriotism (liberty, freedom, country, religion, flags, etc.) woven throughout a book supposedly written over a thousand years before the revolutionary war?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">are you telling me that History has never repeated itself? Are you familiar with the legend of William Wallace (popularized by the movie Braveheart) I think there was a struggle for freedom, liberty, and even some patriotism and that was in Scotland for crying out loud.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Why is an agrarian society similar to the society Joseph was most familiar with described as the setting for the entire book?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suppose it's because all societies from the beginning of time until the industrial revolution were agrarian. I take that back, I guess there were some hunter-gatherers along the way as well as some nomadic societies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Why is a democracy after a monarchy described? (Mosiah 23, 29) - (Similar to the history of the U.S.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's right, America is the only country to have ever become a democracy. Oh wait, it's not. Well at least it was the first. Oh wait, wrong again, it wasn't. Again, I think it should be clear to any student of history that history repeats itself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Is it purely coincidental that there was much speculation in Joseph Smith's area about Indian Mounds and battles?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps, of course if there were indian burial mounds and some evidence of ancient battles, finding a record that depicts those battles seems all the more probable and not less probable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
# Why does the Book of Mormon describe wood forts with pickets to protect people--much like the forts of frontier?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's right, I suppose that makes the book of Mormon false because obviously, the ancient inhabitants of the Americas wouldn't have used native materials to fortify their settlements - they should have used Moon rocks. Come on, what kind of criticism is that? They used wood to build forts. Obviously, only early American frontiersman were smart enough to see that using wood was a good idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Is it purely coincidental that Lehi had six sons as did Joseph Smith Sr.? (Sam/Samuel were sons of both; Nephi and Joseph Smith Jr. were similar)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's right - you're on to something there. Six sons, I bet those are the only two families in history to have had six sons. Actually, Lehi had six sons and that's where the similarities end. If you read the book of Mormon, you'd see this as well. Lehi's eldest sons were rebellious, Joseph Smith's older brothers were nothing but faithful and supportive to the extent that Hyrum was murdered at Joseph's side. Nephi's older brothers tried to kill him, not die defending him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Why did Mormon, Nephi and other "heroes" of the Book of Mormon have so many common traits with Joseph Smith? (large in stature, had visions while a teenager, etc. -- see The Refiner's Fire by John Brooke and Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon for many more similarities)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know, why was David anointed King at a young age, did Joseph Smith make him up to? Nephi's age as far as I can remember isn't given. We don't know how old he was. Moroni took command of the Nephite armies at the age of 25 - obviously very similar to Joseph who had the first vision at the age of fourteen - wait, I mean only a decade off. Heroes also tend to be large in stature. I mean was General Patton short?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Why does the Book of Mormon repeatedly addresses 19th century readers?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where does the Book of Mormon ever say - To those of you who will live in the 19th century... I would contend that as much as the Book of Mormon addresses modern day readers so does the Bible. They are both timeless books of scripture - their advice and counsel is as applicable today as it was centuries ago. Any good literature will speak to the people of any age. That's why we still read Dickens, Bronte, Goethe, and Shakespeare.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Why is the anti-Masonic excitement that arose near Smith's home in 1827 reflected? (Gadianton Robbers / Secret Combos)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why is it that Smith was a Mason later in life. I guess he was an anti-Masonic Mason.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"># Why is infant baptism (a much discussed issue in the early 19th century) condemned in Chapter 8 of Moroni?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I would disagree with you that infant baptism was an issue only in the 19th century. It has been an issue since the Catholic Church altered the practice of baptism in the dark ages. Again, history has a way of repeating itself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do so many stories seem like exaggerated borrowings from the Bible?
Examples:
Ammon killed six sheep rustlers with a sling (Alma 17:36) vs. David's killing of Goliath. (1 Samuel 17:50)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, what seems more of an exageration to kill six normal men as an adult or for a boy to kill a giant?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pillar of Fire. (Exodus 13:21) vs. (1 Nephi 1:6)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So God sometimes appears in a pillar of fire - big deal. By the way, where's the exagerration?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lord instructs Noah to build the Ark (Genesis 6:14) / Lord instructs Nephi to build ship (1 Nephi 17:8) / Lord instructs Jaredites to build barges (Ether 2:16)
Jaredites brought flocks, two of a kind, seeds. (Ether 2:1) vs. Noah doing the same in (Genesis 7:9)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where is the exagerration? I mean Noah was saving the world and all of mankind with his ark. Nephi and the Jaredites were simply sailing across the ocean with their families. The Jaredites took animals and seeds because they weren't idiots and they knew they'd need supplies. Noah's tale certainly seems more exagerated by comparison.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Raising dead. (Matthew 10:8) vs. (3 Nephi 19:4)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess then when Peter raised the dead in Acts, that's false too? Maybe it makes more sense to state that those who power from on high can perform miracles, be they recorded in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Temple of Solomon supposedly took 180,000 people seven and a half years to build (1 Kings 5, 6) / The few in number Nephites supposedly did it in less than 20 years after arriving (2 Nephi 5)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not so, the verse you're referring to actually says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">. Moreover, Nephi gives no time frame for how long it took him to build the temple - based on the dates given in the surrounding chapters it could have taken as long as 30 years. All he's saying is he built a temple like Solomon's and he even admits that it wasn't as good.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Calming Storm (1 Nephi 18:8-21) vs. (Matthew 8:23-27).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very, very different circumstances. Read the stories and you'll find almost no similarities. It would be like comparing Jonah's story of calming the sea to Jesus' "Peace Be Still" story.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Men in Fire (Helaman 5:22-24) vs. (Daniel 3).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ancient cultures probably used fire as a means of execution quite a bit and on occassion God would protect his servants - again, history tends to repeat itself.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Feeding Multitude (3 Nephi 20:3-7) out of nothing / In Bible, Christ multiplied existing food (Matthew 14).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">are you implying that Christ couldn't feed the multitude out of nothing?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Christ heals masses in Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 17:9) / in Bible Jesus healed as he encountered (Luke 9:42).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus was only among the Nephites for a short time following his Resurrection - The Nephites were also a believing people as opposed to the doubting, persecuting Jews of Jerusalem. Different circumstances, different miracles. Are you offended that Jesus would heal alot of people?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Multitude feels wounds in Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 11:13) / In Bible, Thomas felt wounds (John 20:27).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's a pretty good identifier for Jesus to show people the wounds in his hands and feet when they've only been taught about Jesus by revelation and prophesy as opposed to being able to watch him in his earthly ministry. What would you do when you meet Jesus? I think I'd find myself hard pressed not to examine the wounds in his hands, feet and side - not because of doubt but because of awe and wonder at the great love he has for me.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Book of Mormon prophecies of Christ specific / Bible prophecies veiled (actually non-existent unless scripture misquoted or "prophecies" stretched to have two meanings).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So you're saying there aren't any prophecies of Christ in the bible? What version are you reading? Moreover, I think they are pretty dang clear.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Book of Mormon Christ is completely accepted / In Bible he is rejected.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So what's the big deal? The Nephites were a believing nation, the Jews weren't. If Christ had come originally to the Nephites he wouldn't have been crucified and then we'd all be up the creek without a paddle.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aminadi deciphered writing on the wall (Alma 10:2-3) like Daniel (Daniel 5).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">History repeats itself.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Daughter of Jared danced before the king (Ether 8) like the daughter of Herodias (Matthew 14) (decapitation followed in both cases).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it's sometimes referred to as "the oldest profession." Let's face it, women have always known how to get exactly what they want and they use their sexuality to get it. There's nothing surprising here.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Daughters of Lamanites abducted like the daughters of Shiloh.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, men sometimes abduct ladies for nefarious purposes. - guess what, it still happens today, but don't tell anyone, I wouldn't want anyone to think that today is false.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jews of Old Testament were monotheists / Pre-Christ Jews of Book of Mormon were not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is an assertion and I really don't know where it comes from. The Book of Mormon is pretty clear about the culture worshipping one God and his son Jesus Christ.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">here you can look at the rest, im tired. ]http://www.lds-mormon.com/bomquest...Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> And since my antagonist got tired, I'm tired too, So anything you find on lds-mormon.com, I'm certain you can find an answer to on http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml. It even has a nice google search feature so you can search his site for specific questions.

nabster, I'm certain there are many folks out there who for whatever reason - usually personal insensitivity from other folks - have had a horrible experienc in the LDS church. Nonetheless, I am impressed that you'd be willing to take a stab at reading the Book of Mormon. Very impressive indeed. It shows a level of intellectual honesty that I'm not used to seeing.

I think MattyG went away.

Too bad, there's been a shortage of 'cut and paste' arguments from anti-mormon websites lately - only kidding of course.

JOel, why do you suppose there is so much opposition in the christian and evangelical churches to Mormonism? serious qurstion here not poking fun at all. What is it and why is it, Mormonism is seen as occultic? What do YOu believe is the main reason for separation from the "Christian community"? And does the Mormon Church preach acceptance of all religion or is it a "one way and only one way to the Father" religion?
thanks, Nabster

Break it down and all of Christianity is a cult. Think about it. It's got every aspect to a cult. Weekly worships. Manditory belief in some "unshakable truth". A profession of faith at some point. And of course, my personaly favorite, the collecting of money for a "love offering".

Could it be that the other churches don't like the Mormon and the Catholics because they feel threatened by them? Here's some food for thought to add to my point here: The mormon religion is the fastest growing religion in the United States.


Pwn3d other churches. They're threatened, so of course they're going to make the Mormon's sound wacky.

No other churches around (except the evangelical but they say everyone gets into heaven) preach tollerance of other churches and them getting into heaven. If they did, then what would be the point of going to that church and (quelle suprise!) dropping your envelope full of money there?

Look people, if it leads people to doing the right thing, then it's a good church. Enough said.

read up on the definition of a cult mousester....
thankd for your opinion...some how i knew that would be your view point...
Joel , you around?

cult ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klt)
n.

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
The followers of such a religion or sect.
A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
The object of such devotion.
An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.


Basically that describes Christianity to an outsider. Of course they don't call themselves a cult. A cult is usually a bad connotation.

*Smited yet again*

Sorry, I've been busy.

I think that other churches oppose Mormonism because they are all tools of the Devil opposing God's one true church. I'm only kidding of course, but I guess I think there is some truth to that.

Look,(nabster) you and me both probably would agree that Satan's most dangerous tool is mixing a teensy tiny bit of deception in with truth. You know, just enough to throw you off track. We Mormons call it "the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture." The idea being that Satan would rather lull an individual into believing they are on the correct path, when they are actually on the wrong path and thereby doomed.

This is a build up to answering one of your questions. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And does the Mormon Church preach acceptance of all religion or is it a "one way and only one way to the Father" religion?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As you know from previous discussion here and in other threads, I believe (and this is a reflection of Mormon doctrine) that the truth was on the earth in its fulness at the time of Christ. It was a perfect truth and to promote that truch Christ established a perfect church to carry on without him. Sometime after his death, we believe the early church fractured. It broke and fell into Apostacy. As a result, well-meaning groups and individuals grabbed a hold of the truths they were familiar with and fashioned a church around them - essentially mingling the philosophies of men with scripture. So you end up with different churches emphasizing different parts of the gospel, but none with the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Another element here is authority. Jesus authorized his Apostles to lead the church and gave them the Priesthood in order to do so. Without that authority a legitimate church cannot function.

So there you have it, we do believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in posession of authority from God to function as his ordained church on the earth. With that authority comes the ability to recieve revelation and guidance on how that church should be led. So, we believe we have the authority and the fullness of the truth - we don't believe anyone else does.

However, you'll have to refer to our other conversations on the spirit world to find out that not being Mormon isn't a one way ticket to Hell in our theology. There's more to the picture.

AS to the other questions I can only speculate: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">JOel, why do you suppose there is so much opposition in the christian and evangelical churches to Mormonism? serious qurstion here not poking fun at all. What is it and why is it, Mormonism is seen as occultic? What do YOu believe is the main reason for separation from the "Christian community"? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are several reasons.

1. Book of Mormon - and a misunderstanding of what Revelation 22:18-19 is actually referring to. Oh yeah, and the fact that very few people have actually read it. I mean if you read it, it would be very difficult to lable it an unchristian book.
2. Unorthodox view of Trinity - three separate and distinct individuals/personages working as "one"
3. Success engenders envy. You can say what you want about the church, but Mormons are pretty good about living their religion. There is less divorce in the LDS church, less teen pregnancy, less drug abuse, less infidelity, less alcoholism, and even less swearing than any other church out there. These are things that other churches should be able to do for their membership as well, but have not been able to measure up to the success of the Mormon church. I'm not just saying things either, all of these claims are verifiable through various studies that have been conducted. I'll look around for some sources.
4. We send our missionaries to other Christians and not merely to the "heathen nations". We say, "We love what you got Christian brother, but how bout we give you something more."

Yeah, I think those are the main reasons.

However, haven't you noticed that in almost any other thread aside from this one, the "way to live life biblically" stuff I post is almost alwasy in line with what you and others post.

Frankly, I think the reason the LDS church is seeking broader acceptance in the Christian community is because we can have a greater influence on society by combining our political might.

Mitt Romney is a good example, he's the current governor from Massachussettes and a likely Republican candidate for President in 2008. However, a poll was conducted wherein 17% of Christians stated they would never vote for a Mormon. Why is that? What's so offensive about having a pro-life, anti-gay marriage, anti big govt, fiscal and moral conservative as a President. Is it really worth throwing that away just because a guy is Mormon?

This is where it crosses over from merely being about acceptance and turns into a prejudice.

Anyone see the Newsweek coverstory on Mormons yet?

I haven't been able to pick one up.

I take that back, I've seen it now.

For anyone who is interested, the article is pretty fair and mostly accurate. Here's the link

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9630255/site/newsweek/

There is also an interview with our current Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley at this link

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9630256/site/newsweek/

Mormonism


Origin and History

Mormonism began with Joseph Smith Jr. who was born on Dec. 23, 1805, in Vermont. He was the fourth child of Lucy and Joseph Smith.Joseph senior was known as a money digger and sought after burried treasure, particularly that of Captian Kidd. His mother was highly supersticious.

Joseph Jr. stated that he was disturbed by all the different denominations of religion and wondered which were true. in 1820, when he was 14, he went into the woods to pray concerning this, and allegedly God the Father and Jesus appeared to him and told him not to join any of the denominational churches.

Three years later, on Sept. 21, 1823, when he was 17 years old, an angel called Moroni, who was supposed to be the son of Mormon, the leader of the people called nephiteswho lived in the Americas, appeared to him and revealed to him that he had been chosen to translate the book of Mormonwhich was compiled Moroni's father around the 4th century. The book was writtenon golden plates hidden near where Joseph was then livingin Palmyra, New York. Joseph Smith said that on Sept. 22, 1827 he recieved the plates and the angel Moroni helped him through the translation process with some sort of secret decoder ring. The translation was finally published in 1830 as the Book of Mormon. Joseph claimed that during this translation process, John the Baptist appeared to Himand ordainedhim to accomplish the divine work of restoring the true church by preaching the true gospel which, allegedly had been lost from the earth.

Joseph Smith was arrested several times in the various moves that his group made ( New York Ohioh Missouri and finally Illinois.)His final arrest and imprisonment came in 1843 (these are documented records) in Illinois when a mob Killed him in the jail he was being held in. After his death his followers wher split into two groups, the Reorginized Church of LDS (Led by his wife and kids) and the the other group was led by Brigham Young who went to Utah and ended up founding Salt Lake City.

Thats all the time that I have for today ....tommorrow the Book Of Mormon and Mormon Doctrine and Bizzare temple practices. we will learn how mormons think that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones and was (allegedly) as tangible as mankind.

Oh Jusselin, I guess I prefer NE20 to this new and intolerant version of you.

I guess now you prefer to believe the hype from anti-Mormon and Biased sources rather than from someone who used to consider you a friend. It's too bad that you're so easily manipulated.

???

I can't imagine why someone would believe something from someone anti-mormon rather than someone pro-mormon

Ugh, I know I said I was gone for a while and all but I continually keep tabs on this place and check up once in a while to make sure that the anti-mormons don't all gang up on my newly-found friend Joel here.

Look Jusslin, here's an idea. Just a thought, nothing more: How about I pick apart everything in the KJV (assuming that's the Bible you use) and show you how stupid and useless many of the parts are in there. How about we talk about how Solomon, who asked God for wisdom, ended up leaving God for "idols and false prophets". Did he somehow get so much wisdom that he realized that people don't need a God?

Ah yes, how about how I bring up how the early church members wanted to sacrifice their own members and children to God because they didn't know what pleased him? Oh mayhaps I can always touch upon the knowldge that the Apostles, who were supposed to be holy men, also sinned and even killed 2 people out of anger.

People aren't perfect. They never do what they preach. I'm sure, oh wise and perfect Jusselin, that if we picked apart your life and worship practices that we would find two things. A: You are not perfect and you do make mistakes and sin along this path in life; and B: You would most likely crack from the pressure of the microscope life you lead once we measure your every move.

So take a step back and see the big picture. Christ brought a message of peace. One of the few messages of that kind of his time. So why are we today attacking other religions that strive for peace?

Here's where I draw the line. www.chick.com That man is nuts. The way he spouts his thought on anyone that is not like him is going to hell is not only wrong, it is insane. Jusselin, you are begining to sound like him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SenorElMouse:

Look Jusslin, here's an idea. Just a thought, nothing more: How about I pick apart everything in the KJV (assuming that's the Bible you use) and show you how stupid and useless many of the parts are in there. How about we talk about how Solomon, who asked God for wisdom, ended up leaving God for "idols and false prophets". Did he somehow get so much wisdom that he realized that people don't need a God?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, sure... start that topic and we can discuss it - this one is about mormons and as long as no one is bashing someone personally, we should be able to discuss it freely in here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SenorElMouse:

Ah yes, how about how I bring up how the early church members wanted to sacrifice their own members and children to God because they didn't know what pleased him? Oh mayhaps I can always touch upon the knowldge that the Apostles, who were supposed to be holy men, also sinned and even killed 2 people out of anger.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure, as above And what 2 people were killed by the apostles out of anger? I've missed that scripture... in a new topic please.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SenorElMouse:

People aren't perfect. They never do what they preach. I'm sure, oh wise and perfect Jusselin, that if we picked apart your life and worship practices that we would find two things. A: You are not perfect and you do make mistakes and sin along this path in life; and B: You would most likely crack from the pressure of the microscope life you lead once we measure your every move.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">but then that would be making it personal, and I don't think any of us could pass that measure - what do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SenorElMouse:

So take a step back and see the big picture. Christ brought a message of peace. One of the few messages of that kind of his time. So why are we today attacking other religions that strive for peace?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Didn't seem like an attack, far more has been said in this topic than the mild text at the top of this page. It does sound more like a book report tho, I'd like to read a bit more in depth into the material presented.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SenorElMouse:

Here's where I draw the line. www.chick.com That man is nuts. The way he spouts his thought on anyone that is not like him is going to hell is not only wrong, it is insane. Jusselin, you are begining to sound like him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, Chick is probably what we would call misguided in his zeal, but not any more than the plethora of mormons who knock on my door each year - and your last sentence bordlerlines on making this personal.

Start your topic about your issues with the KJV Bible, I welcome it. Joel doesn't need uninformed assistance on this thread, he's doing a good job of that by himself