Yes, but if I am wrong and the spoon really isn't there, it's not going to haunt me for eternity.

and the difference between our outlooks is this: it really doesn't matter to you whether or not I see things your way because if you are right and I'm wrong, what have I really lost? Nothing. It matters to me so much that I at least get you to understand that maybe I am wrong...but if you're the one who's wrong, then it will cost you EVERYTHING. That is why it matters to me.

Of course...it wouldn't haunt me either...as I don't believe in eternity...

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Confirmed Non-Believer
Captain of my Soul...
Master of my Ship...

<FONT size="3">CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIESTS!!!!</FONT s>

Yes, but just because you don't believe in it.......oh never mind.

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the tYpInG FOOL

Michelle...that is one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me...and I sincerely appreciate it...I may be a lost cause...but I truly admire you, your beliefs, and your conviction!! You are truly a wonderful person...thank you.

Jim

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Confirmed Non-Believer
Captain of my Soul...
Master of my Ship...

Jim, I dont believe that you are a lost cause...And even if you are, I will still care.
Michelle

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the tYpInG FOOL

Thanks...as for the "crazy stubborn athiest" thing...see my signature below...

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CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

ps...don't thank me....thank God. Well, it was worth a try, no?

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the tYpInG FOOL

Beautiful! I love it. That sums you up pretty well...

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the tYpInG FOOL

That Quantum Physics is interesting, even if it is off the point. Can you suggest some reading on it for me?

Meanwhile, try this experiment -- Do the cat in the box thing, and leave it there for a week. How can something that doesn't exist starve to death? Leave the body, I bet it still rots. Anyway, that's quantum physics not quantum spirits...back to the point...

You believe some things because of the experience of other people? These people have experienced something they believe is God. There must be something there.

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Jim,
It is good to have a chance to read your discussion again. My associate pastor's wife recently died. Thus, I haven't spent much time on the web.

1/2. Anyways, I was wondering if you have a degree in quantam physics or the likes or if it is something you enjoy studying?

I am facinated about the whole tree in the woods topic (I was thinking about it today even before I read any of the posts). Jim, I believe I have read that you don't believe that God speaks to us (Even if not, I know you don't believe in God so you probably believe that a non-existant person can't talk), but I was thinking about this tree in the woods thing and I believe God told me this...

Me--"If a tree falls in the woods, will it make a sound? How can anyone know it?"
God--"I'd hear it. I'd know it."

It made me smile.

Anyways, another couple question.

1. Have you seen God's love any more or any better since your posting on this board?

2. The Jesus we have told you about (The God of Love), is there something about Him do you not want to accept or believe? Do you believe He loves you? Or is it you are fully persuaded that there is no God? Not even a possibility?

3. Is there a possibility?

Crazy stubborn athiest signature--lol. You are truly a character sir. I know whether you believe in God or not, you get your laughs.

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Until He Returns, I remain... About souls,
crucified_with_christ

If radiation leaks into a village where no one has the technology to detect it, and it is not sensed in any way, it does still affect them. Carbon Monoxide gas can kill a person who does not know it is there. Radio waves must exist in spaces where there is no one aware of them, because they must travel from the transmitter to the receiver through dead space.

God is transmitting His message to every living being. The signal is perfect, it is the receivers that are not tuned in properly. We can tell you what station to turn to, and if you tune in you can hear it too.

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<FONT size="4"><FONT COLOR="blue"><FONT face="Stencil">crazy stubborn...</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f> never mind...

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the tYpInG FOOL

Yes...the people are there, "experienceing" the radiation, [censored], it exists...same with the CO...same with the radio waves...if the cat dies, it smells, and you smell it...all you have to do is prove the spoon is there...on the floor...behind you...can't be done...

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CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

Okay, Jim. I give up. You are more stubborn than I am.

Okay....we both admit that neither of us understand EVERYTHING about even our own beliefs. ( btw...you really didn't think I was serious about you being more stubborn...did you? ) But now let's forget about being stubborn and proving each other wrong. Let's try to prove each other right. As friends.


That's exactly what I'm saying, Jim. I know that the spoon is still there. But even more sure than I am of the spoon...I am 10thousand times MORE SURE of God.


Yes! good...we agree. It is impossible to prove/disprove that the spoon is still there. I cannot prove and you cannot disprove the existance or presence of God. But just like the spoon, HE IS THERE.


All I'm asking, beggin, pleading and imploring you to do is to TRY. Just try to understand. TRY. What have you got to lose? What have you got in your life right now that could even begin to compare to a love that will NEVER let you down no matter what you do? A love that died for you. A love that has mercy enough on you to give you tenbillion second chances. A greater love than you could ever imagine.


This is where we differ. Because as I said...it doesn't matter to you whether or not I believe in your theories or not...because if I am wrong, then I havent lost anything and neither have you. But Jim...PLEASE understand that if by some small teeny tiny chance that you are wrong...just the slightest chance...is it worth losing everything? Is pride and stubborness and proving that you are right really worth it?

And we know that we can't all be right...one of us has to be wrong...there's no denying that. I am not going to go to Heaven because I believe in it, and you are not going to just disappear when you die just because you believe it. One of us is wrong. If it's me...well, I'll just disappear and I've lived a life knowing that I did my best to make the world a better place and that's that. But if it's you....Jim, I cry when I think about it. Honestly. I'm not saying that just to sound good. I weep. I wail like a crazy person. I sob. When I think that maybe possibly you will just pass the opportunity by...What have you got to lose by just reaching out? If you're right and nothing happens...well, then you can chalk it up to the fact that I am a fool and a lunatic and a crazy stubborn christian zealot or whatever you want to call me. But if you're wrong....well I would rather not even think about it. But you're so sure of yourself. So sure that you're right. What could it hurt? What have you got to lose?
I can honestly say that I have put forth an effort to see things your way. I have tried to understand and imagine where you are coming from. I really have. I understand some of what you are saying. And as I said before...you choose for whatever reason not to believe in God, so you explain it the best way that you can. But all the explinations in the world aren't going to get you anywhere when it is all said and done. Why work so hard to try to disprove to yourself the existance of your loving creator? Why? I tried to put myself in your shoes. But remember what I said about the squash? I cannot unlearn God because I have experienced Him firsthand. And in order to completely see things the way you see them, I would have to unlearn what it is to be in the presence of God. You on the other hand...you don't know because you havent taken that step. You haven't experienced Him. All my explanations are empty to you. You can't imagine Him because you haven't experienced Him. You have a head full of knowledge that will still be there. But you can have so much more if you would only open your heart to Him.
So you're not sure that He exists. But give yourself the chance. Talk to Him. Just once. Just speak to Him. (if He's not there, then no one will hear you anyway...) Sincerely talk to Him. Say, God, if you are there, then help me to understand you. Again...what have you got to lose?

I have got an inner belief in myself...a self-reliance beyond compare...throughout my life I have relied solely on myself...probably wrong, but true none the less. I find it utterly incomprehensible to give up that self reliance. I know that is not what you are saying...I know one can be self reliant but still believe in god, but for me, I would not put my life, thoughts, direction, feelings, conscience, guidance, or anything else in ANYONE's hands...but my own...even your god's hands. To some that is selfish, stupid, wierd, etc...I don't know how you view it, but my self reliance is the very core of my being...I rely on ME to take care of my men...I rely on ME to make the tough choices...no one else...of course I seek advice and I look to others for help, but when it comes down to the bottom line...descision time...it is me.

Foreverchanged...for you (and ONLY you)...I tried...I cannot say that I was sincere...although I tried to be sincere...I asked your question...and felt nothing...no enlightenment...no understanding. Why? I'll tell you my theory...I do not believe in god...[censored], how could I ever be sincere enough to accept him (if he did exist)? At the very center of my existence is the un-shakeable belief that there is no god...I admit, I could be wrong, but if in my mind I have that belief...how can that change? Let me say it this way...your god demands acceptance...how could he enter my life if I don't believe in him or accept him?

Foreverchanged, you are truly a wonderful person...and probably a better person than I will ever be...all of you on this board are good people...but that fails to persuade me...why? Would not god somehow, someway, enable me to see the light? Does my non-belief forever condemn me to hell...even if I am truly a good person? And if I do not accept god...but am still a good person...where do I go? Heaven, hell, or nothingness?

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CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

I am no better than you or anyone else, Jim. But I am forgiven. Don't do anything for me. Do it for yourself and God. I don't think you are selfish. Just blinded to the truth. I still want to be your friend. And I am POSITIVE that if you keep seeking you WILL find. Give Him time. You don't always see immediate results...

I am at work now so I can't say everything that I want to say for lack of time...but I will be back later. Please don't give up...

Still nothing...

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CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!