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WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN?

Posted By: Jusselin

WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/06/04 02:14 PM

Were we in heaven before we were conceied...what do you think...This is a great topic and i am interested in hearing your point of views...especially yours Joel...LOL...so were we little spirits hanging in heaven before we were born or were we just non existant?
Posted By: Steve

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/06/04 02:33 PM

Jeremiah 1:4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [1] you, before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

We existed in God's mind before here. I personally believe that we did exist spiritually before earth though I cannot prove or disprove it.
Posted By: Joel33

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/06/04 03:09 PM

Steve's got it. And I also think he proved it.
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/06/04 08:59 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve:
[QB] Jeremiah 1:4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [1] you, before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

He was talking to jeremiah then not all of us though am i right? he didnt tell us we would all be a prophet over the nations....he was speaking clearly to Jeremiah...am i right???

and have you ever seen the Jesse Duplantis DVD about his incounter with heaven....

And Joel I was Understood that Mormons thought we were spirits in the heavens before coming down here...could you elaborate either way bro....i am curious....
Posted By: Steve

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/07/04 01:50 PM

I wanted to use the verse in Jeremiah to back up Psalms. Just the IDEA that God knew who we were and all about us before we actually came to life.

Yes God was speaking to some specifics in Jeremiahs life, but like most passages there is a general meaning for all of us as well.


(no I haven't seen the vid.)

Steve
Posted By: NABSTER

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/07/04 07:08 PM

when God created man, he created him from the dust of the earth then breathed life into him. before that he was not.he was not physical or spiritual.he just wasnt. neither were you or I. that does not mean that an omnipotent all knowing god does not know who we will be before we are born or conceived. God knows the end from the beginning, so it stands to reason he knows us before we were created because, after all he has created us each special and individually. There are new lives and souls at conception not recycled ones from Heaven. We are born in sin and it just doesnt stand to reason that a heavenly spirit would come to live in a person born of sin (except Jesus). God does not sit around and at every conception here on earth tell one of the angels (or souls)to come down and inhabit a mortal being. A heavenly being by description is spiritually alive, yet man born in sin is spiritually dead.It again stands to reason the spirit or soul of a new life is also new and not directly from an existing soul in heaven.When a new life is conceived it is a new soul/spirit not an existing one. That new soul /spirit is what is in battle between heaven and hell- the devil and jesus. Our freewill will determine whether or not that soul ends up in heaven or hell.
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/07/04 10:56 PM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Steve:



(no I haven't seen the vid.)

Steve
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">your missing out bro...I will see if i can get a copy and mail it to you...
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/07/04 10:58 PM

Good point nabster...good point...I dont know. I m glad to be alive...
Posted By: Joel33

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/08/04 03:07 PM

I thought I'd respond by quoting a snippet of an earlier conversation nabster and I had in the Mormon thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By the way why do you believe we all lived in Heaven as spirits before the rebellion of Lucifer?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mostly because of convergent Biblical evidence. I've already cited scripture proving that Lucifer was once in heaven and you haven't refuted it so I guess you agree with it. Then there are many scriptures that indicate we lived as spirits with God before we came to earth and will return to live with him after we die.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you can't return to somplace you've never been before.

Hebrews 12:9
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This implies a spiritual creation that is separate from the physical creation. One would assume the spiritual creation came first since you can't live without one.

Jeremiah 1:5 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God knew him - I guess anything is possible to God, but the simplest explanation is usually the right one. If God knew Jeremiah before he was formed, then Jeremiah must have existed in some knowable state.

More of the same in Romans 8:29
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">foreknow? predistinate? all of that takes place before birth.

Ephesians 1:4 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">again the simplest explanation to how he chose us before the foundation of the world is that we existed and we were with him.

Lastly that verse I quoted in the other post Revelation 12:7 - those angels that fought against the dragon with Michael? That's you and me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Posted By: Steve

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/09/04 03:26 PM

I only have one point of difference to make with Joel's post. We and the Angels are completely different species.

Angelic beings are described in detail in the Bible and though they can appear as human they are quite frightening to look upon. They were created either to praise, fight or run errands depending on their type.

We however are destined to rule even the Angels when it is all over.
Posted By: Joel33

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/10/04 08:05 PM

That's an awful lot of Catholic Dogma right there Steve.
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/10/04 10:14 PM

Isaiah 44:2
I am your Creator.

You were in my care

even before you were born.
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/10/04 10:25 PM

Kinda clears every thing up huh...LOL
Posted By: Melissa

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/11/04 05:29 AM

maybe i just have a weird point of view but i like my point of view even if its just for me....I think God knew us before we were created but thats only cause like nabster God is all knowing He created us but we didn't actually have to have form for Him to know us. Maybe(and this is a sorry example but i like cooking so i'm using it) just maybe its like when a chef decides they want to bake 100 cake and they want to create their own recipes but the catch is they aren't gonna make any 2 alike. They keeping thinking of different ways to make the cakes, whether is be different, shape,size,taste,feel,color, ect. or all of the above....but the chef knows what they want and they know their creation before it actually has form. And if the creator truly loves what they are making no matter how it turns out it will be perfect in their eyes. Its just kinda they way i like to think of it sometimes.(then again people tell me i'm weird)
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/11/04 06:08 AM

I'm curious, Steve; I have never found any clear description of an angel anywhere in the Bible (and much of anything from Revelation doesn't really count, 'cause it's so symbolic half the time you don't know what's going on - too open to interpretation). I'd be grateful if you enlightened me on this evidence you speak of.

(And that bit about Revelation - if that's where you get your detailed description from, go ahead and post it; I just think it wouldn't be very convincing, because Revelation is so open to multiple interpretations)
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/11/04 01:54 PM

Isaiah 44:2
I am your Creator.

You were in my care

even before you were born.
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/11/04 03:58 PM

New Era - what version of the Bible is that? I looked in about 6 different versions (all on blueletterbible.org), and couldn't find anything that said that. Some of them seemed to say the opposite, that God formed us from the womb, not before that. Here are a few of them:

KJV
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NKJV
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Thus says the Lord who made you
And formed you from the womb, who will help you:
'Fear not, O Jacob My servant;
And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NLT
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
The Lord who made you and helps you says: O Jacob, my servant, do not be afraid. O Israel, my chosen one, do not fear.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Posted By: foreverchanged

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/11/04 06:27 PM

Jeremiah 11:5 NIV

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart...

hmmmmm...
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/11/04 08:57 PM

The contemperary version.....

Go to.... click here
hey michelle what it do?
Posted By: foreverchanged

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/12/04 02:31 PM

what what do? confused
Posted By: Melissa

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/13/04 04:51 AM

not to start a debate, but technically you could take Jeremiah 11:5 two ways: 1)God literally knew us physically 2)God knew us because He had already created and fashioned us in His mind.
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/13/04 02:10 PM

Come on Michelle i know you aint no old foggie...What it do means whats crackilackin...whats jivin...whats sappinin...
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/13/04 03:47 PM

Steve, I had a question for you, but you might have missed it 'cause it was on the last page and got posted over really quickly. I'm gonna repost it here, 'cause I'm really curious to know what you have to say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I'm curious, Steve; I have never found any clear description of an angel anywhere in the Bible (and much of anything from Revelation doesn't really count, 'cause it's so symbolic half the time you don't know what's going on - too open to interpretation). I'd be grateful if you enlightened me on this evidence you speak of.

(And that bit about Revelation - if that's where you get your detailed description from, go ahead and post it; I just think it wouldn't be very convincing, because Revelation is so open to multiple interpretations [As Ryan (a nondenominational Christian) said a long time ago in the Mormon thread, "You don't get doctrine out of Revelation"])</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Posted By: Jusselin

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/14/04 01:33 PM

NewEra 2:1

1. And God said there were beautiful angels...They had feet and hands and some had hangnails...and pimples...

J/K
Posted By: anangelsarms

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/14/04 04:19 PM

i like it new era ... i subscribe to that one!!i, too understand angels to be of a different race, breed, whatever, call it my doctrine, i dunno where i "learned it" but they surely arent human. i've simply read too many cool christian fiction books to discredit it wink (not trying to sound smart here, just lightening the mood)
Posted By: NABSTER

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/14/04 06:38 PM

Angels in the Bible, can look like you or me. We never know whether we are "entertaining angels" when we do unto others, which wold make one believe they can be like us in appearance. Secondly, they were in O.T. times large and intimidating and their countenance was frightening. I do not find specifics about their look, but they are bodily and "like us" in appearance when here to do God's intervention and ministering work.
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/14/04 07:02 PM

By the way, what I'm looking for is concrete evidence that "Angels are completely different species." It's been my experience with the Bible that such evidence does not exist (I haven't found any evidence supporting they are the spirits of men, either - I've found the Bible to be oddly silent on the matter). Anyone who wishes to prove me wrong is welcome to do so, but I directed the question to Steve because he was the one who claimed to have specific evidence of this.
Posted By: NABSTER

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/14/04 07:06 PM

There are also some who look very frightening such as in Ezekiel. I believe they have the ability, based on how they have appeared to man, to look different to different people in times of varying need. Lucifer and his demons have the ability to look beautiful or fearsome.Revelation describes the cherubim(i believe) with four heads of different animals etc. Common angels, cherubim, seraphim, archangels, all probably look different. They are spirit beings first , yet scripture tells us they are physical and come and go from the heavenlies. I know I havent supported with specific scriptures here but in reading and studying about them , i think my statements and scripturally based.
Nabster
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/15/04 01:38 AM

I just found an interesting passage. See what you think.

Acts 12:13-15
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
13. And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.
14. And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate.
15. And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So, let's think about what this means. Peter, who had recently been cast into prison, was presumed to be dead by the saints in this city. But, unbeknownst to them, Peter had been freed from prison by the power of God, and showed up at the gate. The girl who was watching the gate heard Peter's voice and recognized it, and she was so excited she forgot to open it, and instead ran and told everyone that Peter was outside, because she knew it was him by his voice. The people, believing Peter to be dead, thought the girl to be crazy. She insisted, so they said "Alright, maybe you did hear his voice, but we know he's dead, so it must have been his angel."

Whoah, hold on a second there - that's a really interesting thing to say. It must have been Peter's angel? What in the world does that mean? The only thing it can mean, I think, is that the people in that city (the Christians in that city) believed that Peter's spirit, after he died, was an angel. They tried to explain to this girl that the reason she heard Peter's voice was because he died and came back as an angel. I don't think you can read that verse any other way. If you think you can, feel free to say so.

But how can that be, if angels are a different species than man? It looks like I just found a verse that appears to be in favor of the "angels are the spirits of men" theory. Any evidence to the contrary?
Posted By: Allen

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/15/04 05:44 AM

Possibly, but maybe more possibly we're peering into the goings-on of superstitious people. Those with original greek translators, does the word 'angel' here mean how we think of angels today, or possibly did it mean Peter's 'spirit'?
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/15/04 08:27 AM

You can have a Greek translator any time you want one by going to blueletterbible.org. If you go to a verse, then click on the 'C' on the left of the verse, it'll give you the Greek words it's translated from. Then if you click the number by the Greek word, it'll give you the meaning of the word. I did that with "angel" here, and it is the same word for "angel" that is used 174 times in the New Testament. In fact, that's the only word that's ever translated as "angel" in all of the New Testament. The word for "spirit" is an entirely different word.

Secondly, you (or I) really have no idea whether or not "how we think of angels today" is the same as the early Christians (or Jews before them) thought of angels, unless we can establish from the Bible what they understood them to be. So asking if the word matches "how you think of angels" is reading your own interpretation into the Bible, and should probably be avoided. The word "angel" in both the Old and New Testaments literally only means "messenger." So what does that mean?

Another very similar verse (that I don't want to take time right now to explain more fully, but I might later, if someone is interested) is Matthew 18:10:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And this one is Christ talking, so you can't rely on Him being "superstitious." And I just looked at the passage in Acts again, and the house they were at was that of "Mary the mother of John." You'd have a hard time convincing me that they were "superstitious."

Any other guesses as to what all of this means? From these two verses it seems the simplest interpretation is that angels are the spirits of men. But, I know there are other verses that make it much more complicated. Any word on those? Keep in mind, I'm just trying to learn more about what the Bible says, I'm not trying to argue whether or not my interpretation is right - my belief on angels doesn't come from the Bible, so it's nothing particularly life-threatening smile . I'm just curious (but not offhandedly curious - I really do want to know what the Bible has to say on the matter).
Posted By: NABSTER

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/15/04 03:15 PM

Angels are immortal, men are mortal. we are different beings. Angels are from the beginning of time, if you will., and men "are appointed once to die and then judgement". Angels with four heads of animals are different than men with only one(albeit one large one sometimes). I do beleive angels when taking a physical nature upon themselves can and do look like man. Angels have appeared to man many times in the bible, and i believe that is one of the reasons the people thought it was the angel of peter. That and they were trying to reason and put logic to situation that demanded faith. That piece of the story of the woman is about faith in peter being alive and believing without seeing.
nabster
Posted By: NABSTER

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/15/04 03:27 PM

Good stuff there Matthew. I would respond by saying that if the children on earth, which are alive do have a spirit,soul here on earth within their physical bodies, then how could that mean there is also a spirit(angel) in the heavenlies simultaneously? I dont think that scripture of ones personal angelic soul being in heaven while we exist on earth. I beleive it refers to messengers and guardians of those children who are in the presence of god , and have a direct line of communication the Father... dont mess with the little ones.
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/15/04 10:18 PM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Angels are immortal, men are mortal. we are different beings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Any scripture backing this up?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Angels are from the beginning of time, if you will. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now that's an interesting belief. Does that make them co-eternal with God? If they are from the beginning of time in the same sense you believe God to be, they couldn't have been created. But then what of the verses that say God created everything? Does that not include angels?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
and men "are appointed once to die and then judgement". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Angels will be judged too. 1 Corinthians 6:3 says "know ye not that we shall judge angels?" What in the world that means, I don't know, but it does tell us that angels, whatever they are, will be judged. And that means they must have free will, because you can't be judged without free will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Angels with four heads of animals </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where does this come from? I have a suspicion that you're taking that from Revelation. And the verses I think you're getting it from (Revelation 4:6-8) describes four separate beasts, not one 4-headed angel. If that's not it please correct me, but remember that any doctrine founded on Revelation is shaky at best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Angels have appeared to man many times in the bible, and i believe that is one of the reasons the people thought it was the angel of peter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But that doesn't explain why they thought it was the angel of Peter. If angels and men are different beings, how could it have been the angel of Peter?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
That and they were trying to reason and put logic to situation that demanded faith. That piece of the story of the woman is about faith in peter being alive and believing without seeing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree. The woman didn't need faith in Peter being alive - she knew it was him from his voice (verse 14). The point of the story is her trying to convince the other people that it really was Peter, and ultimately just a story of how Peter got out of prison (meant to show the power of God, among other things). But anyway, that's of no real consequence, because the important part (for this discussion) is that fact that in the middle of whatever they were supposed to learn, they said that Peter was an angel (or at least they thought Peter was an angel).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Good stuff there Matthew. I would respond by saying that if the children on earth, which are alive do have a spirit,soul here on earth within their physical bodies, then how could that mean there is also a spirit(angel) in the heavenlies simultaneously? I dont think that scripture of ones personal angelic soul being in heaven while we exist on earth. I beleive it refers to messengers and guardians of those children who are in the presence of god , and have a direct line of communication the Father... dont mess with the little ones.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I could buy that. It is stretching it a little bit, but it sounds reasonable. My interpretation of it (which is also stretching it, but also reasonable, I think) is that little children, once they are in heaven, are always beholding the face of God - in other words, little children are saved. This again assumes that angels are the spirits of men (or children) that are not on earth. So, if children die, their angels are always beholding the face of God, and they are saved (this also seems plausible if you consider what it's talking about in the next verse - "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost"). Once again, I know that is stretching it a little bit, but so is yours.
Posted By: NABSTER

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/15/04 11:11 PM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Matthew:
[QB] [QUOTE]
Angels are immortal, men are mortal. we are different beings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Any scripture backing this up?
I dont recall any scripture stating angels were killed, or died.The same angels that fought Lucifer as well as his angels are still "living".
Men , are born, live, and die, then go to heaven or hell.(Iknow you disagree on that one!) anyway once to die and then judgement. yes the angels are judged, that is scriptural, what they are judged on, i dont know, i guess works or something.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Angels are from the beginning of time, if you will. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now that's an interesting belief. Does that make them co-eternal with God? If they are from the beginning of time in the same sense you believe God to be, they couldn't have been created. But then what of the verses that say God created everything? Does that not include angels?

The "if you will" was an quicker way of saying they have been around since God created them.And they are still around today. Hence , the immortal statement. None of the angels were killed in the great battle in the heavens(at least it doesnt say so) they were cast out and now try to torment us poor folks here on earth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
and men "are appointed once to die and then judgement". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Angels will be judged too. 1 Corinthians 6:3 says "know ye not that we shall judge angels?" What in the world that means, I don't know, but it does tell us that angels, whatever they are, will be judged. And that means they must have free will, because you can't be judged without free will.

i could buy that. seeing as they are not tempted by evil. there is no evil in heaven. maybe the value of their works? who knows.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Angels with four heads of animals </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where does this come from? I have a suspicion that you're taking that from Revelation. And the verses I think you're getting it from (Revelation 4:6-8) describes four separate beasts, not one 4-headed angel. If that's not it please correct me, but remember that any doctrine founded on Revelation is shaky at best.
Ezekiel 1:5-21, specifically verse 10. This is a 42 fold description of a cherubim. Ezekiel 10:8-22. specifically verse 14. thes two passages listed are said to be same description of creatures, i believe.

verse 14 - And every one had four faces: the first face [was] the face of a cherub, and the second face [was] the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

The study of angels is fascinating. the ranks and jobs, and characteristics of them. I still have not done a major study of them, only touched on it here and there. I will do so soon.
nabster
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/16/04 12:32 AM

Alright, a description of a cherub. I looked at that; it's definitely interesting. Personally, I would say that it's very symbolic, but it doesn't have to be. But it brought to my mind another question - what's the difference between an angel and a cherub? They are two completely different words in both Hebrew and Greek. In the Old Testament, "angel" is used 111 times (the Hebrew word is also translated as "messenger" 98 times in the Old Testament), whereas "cherub" and "cherubims" occur only 91 times total in the Old Testamanet (and the word that means "cherub" is only translated as one of those two - nothing else). In the New Testament, the Greek word for "angel" is used 186 times, while the Greek word for "cherubims" is used only once, and that is in Hebrews 9, which is talking about the Old Testament. And "seraphims" is only used twice in the whole Bible, both in Isaiah 6. What does this all mean? Are angels completely different things from cherubim? It would appear so, based on the words that are used for each of them. So, then, what's what? Are cherubim and seraphim things of the Old Testament only? This all seems pretty darn confusing to me.

One other thing - just because the Bible doesn't mention something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. One easy example of this is women in the Bible - they are hardly mentioned at all. Does that mean everyone that wasn't specifically stated as having a wife didn't have one? Obviously not. It also never mentions Peter using the restroom. Does that mean Peter's digestive system worked differently than ours? I know those are bad comparisons, but I think it gets the point across - something doesn't have to be specifically stated in order to have happened.
Posted By: NABSTER

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/16/04 03:46 AM

BTW Psalm 148:2-6 states angels were created ...forever and ever along with other things created.Immortality is one of the qualities of angels, as we are given clear evidence in Holy Scripture, which teaches that they cannot die (Luke 20:36).
hence immortal. Only God can end their existence, obviously.

The nine ranks are usually listed as seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions (or dominations), principalities, powers, virtues, archangels, and angels. The seven archangels named in the Old Testament or other ancient religious texts are Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Sariel, and Jeramial.

This is a copy and paste from a website orthodox info .com

The Orthodox Church, guided by the views of the writers of the early Church and the Fathers of the Church, and in particular by the work On the Celestial Hierarchies by St. Dionysius the Areopagite, divides the world of the angels into nine ranks, and these nine into three hierarchies, each consisting of three ranks. In the first hierarchy stand those that are closest to God-thrones, cherubim and seraphim. In the second, or middle hierarchy are authorities, dominions and powers. The third hierarchy, which is closest to us, contains angels, archangels and principalities (Orthodox Confessions). We find the enumeration of nine ranks of angels in the "Decrees of the Apostles", and in the works of St. Ignatius the God-bearer, St. Gregory the Theologian, and St. John Chrysostom; later in the works of St. Gregory the Dialogist, St. John of Damascus and others. This is what St. Gregory the Dialogist writes: "We accept the existence of nine ranks of angels, because from the evidence of the Word of God we know about angels, archangels, powers, authorities, principalities, dominions, thrones, cherubim and seraphim. The existence of angels and archangels is witnessed throughout Holy Scripture; it is principally the books of the Prophets which mention cherubim and seraphim. The names of yet another four ranks are listed by the Apostle Paul in his Epistle to the Ephesians, where he writes: ‘Far above all principality; and power, and might, and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come’ (Eph. 1:21); and also in his Epistle to the Colossians: ‘For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him’ (Col. 1:16). Thus, when to those four, of whom he speaks to the Ephesians—that is to the principalities, authorities, powers and dominions—we add the thrones, mentioned in the Epistle to the Colossians, that adds up to five ranks of angels; and when to them we add the angels, archangels, cherubim and seraphim, we can see that there are nine ranks of angels."
End Quote.

I can feel myself wanting to go a little deeper. I'll post some more later on when I have some more time.
Nabster
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/16/04 04:15 AM

Well, then, being immortal is not a quality unique to angels, for after the resurrection we also will be immortal, as the same verse you quoted to me states (Luke 20:36).

Personally, I don't see any rational basis for saying that "power, authorities, principalities, dominions and thrones" are angelic beings. That just doesn't make any sense to me. If you assume that they mean angelic beings in the Ephesians verse, why are not "names" also angelic beings? It makes far more sense to say that in both cases Paul was referring to the fact that Christ is above all powers, and might, and dominion (in the literal sense) - in other words, Christ has all power - and that He created the thrones that men rule on (referring to kingdoms, I would assume), and it was His creation that allowed men to have dominion, and principalities, and powers. I don't see a logical step from those two verses to angelic beings.
Posted By: NABSTER

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 12/16/04 01:55 PM

it is awful confrusin aint it? i imagine much study would need be done to fully grasp how the writers end up with these translations. However, in looking, i have found nearly every major study(er)of the angelic ranks comes up with the same nine ranks. so there must be some validity. I certainly do not claim to have come up with it nor can I ,at this point, back it up .
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/14/05 03:52 AM

no, melissa, youre not weird, but are creative! NICE example with the chef strategy. im the weird one.
Posted By: anangelsarms

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/14/05 06:57 PM

this thread is really interesting, i hope it keeps going ... nabster and matthew, where are you guys getting your research from ?
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/14/05 07:06 PM

are we talking about angels being only male? Ive only heard of man angels in Bible suchas michael, gabriel. will find out when we go to Heaven.
Posted By: sdibias

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/14/05 07:59 PM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">WE WERE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very interesting thread, good reading.

I just wanted to comment on the subject of this thread.

While studying Theology on my own time I decided to see why Mormons always had so many kids (it is a sterotype, but true). The answer I found was shocking! They beleive that we are all in Heaven before we are born, and so they have lots of kids because they are trying to get them out of Heaven and down to earth.

I personally find this twisted, but that's just my opinion!
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/14/05 08:31 PM

wow, new one for me too! thought it was that they didnt believe in birth control?
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/14/05 11:40 PM

Just a bit of clarification - what you posted about Mormons and kids is wrong. It's true that we believe we were all in Heaven before we were born (look at Ecclesiastes 12:7 - how can our spirits return somewhere they've never been?), but that's not the reason we have a lot of kids. That's a personal decision by the parents of each family - I know plenty of Mormon families with just one or two kids, but you're right, it is typical for Mormon families to have upwards of 4 (and where I am, at BYU, it's not uncommon to run into people from families of 8 kids or more (I'm included in that category myself)). The reason Mormons tend to have large families is because we have a strong belief in the importance of the family, and just love kids, I guess. There is nothing doctrinal about it - no one is ever encouraged to have large families (unless they think there is some social pressure from the families around them, which there shouldn't be - no one preaches it) - it just happens that most Mormons have lots of kids, because we love families. No other religion in the world places more importance on the family, and that breeds a love of families and a love of kids (for more information on LDS beliefs in the family here\'s a link to go to , or you could go to mormon.org and click on the link that says "Families").

It's also not true that we don't believe in birth control - that's the Catholics (I think - I'm no Catholic, so I don't know for sure, but that's what I've heard). We believe the use birth control to be a personal decision between husband and wife, and it is not regulated by our doctrine at all. My mother used birth control in between her pregnancies.

And lastly, I wish I had more time to spend here, but being at college and taking 21 credits isn't really conducive to spending a lot of time on the internet doing things unrelated to school. So, I probably won't be back for a very long time. If someone has a really important question for me, if you send me a private message it'll get sent to my e-mail and I'll see what I can do; other than that I won't ever see it.

So, at least for the forseeable future ('cause when this semester's over I'll be going to serve a mission in a foreign country somewhere for two years, so I also won't be able to visit the site), adieu.

Matt
Posted By: sdibias

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/15/05 12:15 AM

Well just so you know, I have nothing against Mormons, some of my best friends growing up were Mormons and once done with schoolong went out on there Missions as well.

It makes sense that I am right in my comment about kids. We both know that you obviously have a choice to have lots of kids, but this certainly stems from the fact that you're supposedly bringing them down from the Heavens, It makes sense to me...

Mormonism is an edifice built atop another religion, Christianity. But the views and interperatation are entirely different.

None of the other Christian religions made multi-chick marriages an essential feature, but the LDS church gave that up in 1890. Publicly at least, and only after the federal government stepped in. The feds revoked the citizenship of every polygamous Mormon, disincorporated their church, and began seizing its assets. Shortly thereafter the residing Prophet responded with a fresh revelation from Heaven, immediately reversing their five decades old implementation of the holy sacrament.

Polygomy also makes sense with the "Bringing kids down from Heaven theory". Don't you think?

Incidentally, good chunks of the Book of Mormon (purported to have been written circa 400 AD) were lifted from the King James translation of the Bible (completed in 1611). Included in these plagiarisms are the errors made by KJV's translators. Explanations of this time warp are curious and unsatisfying. Furthermore, whichever Supreme Being wrote the Book of Mormon's pseudo-KJV verses possessed an inadequate understanding of how to use Jacobean noun cases.

The Mormons are the only mainstream church to engage in retroactive, posthumous baptisms, in order that ancestors may ascend to heaven... ok... Among those so baptised were Adolf Hitler in 1993, Josef Stalin, and Vlad the Impaler. By 1997 a coverup of the most controversial baptisms occurred, accomplished imperfectly.

The Mormons were vilified by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in his first Sherlock Holmes story, "A Study in Scarlet." It was also Mormon settlers who precipitated the war between Earth and Klendathu in the movie Starship Troopers.

I just don't see it...
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/15/05 12:49 AM

thanks for the lesson, had no idea. to each its own. AS long as folks arent off sacrificing people on alters-i leave that up to druid cults. not the earth pagan cults-wicca. both remind of THE CRAFT movie, scary! PEOPLE JUST WORSHIP IN DIFFERENT WAYS, Id rasther they have too many kids than to kill them any day. ive known some mormons myself. its their personal choice,but its not for me-not my bag to be in any ''harem'' [polygamy]? AT LEAST BE GIVEN A CHOICE TO MARRY A MAN KNOWING HED HAVVE OTHER WIVES-. thats better than him just hiding and cheating. some rel. cults like davidians took it too far with having children as wives etc-under 12 too young. although its hard to find virgins[any gender]under 16 even anymore.
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/15/05 12:53 AM

i have nothing against mormons noor Arab cultures where its more Biblical generation, tradition. im not for abuse of anyone in name of religion however. that can happen anywhere, look at waco![DAVID KORESH CULT]. it should be consentual as adults, not child abuse -power hungry wanna bes scare me as a church leader.
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/15/05 12:55 AM

HOPE I hadnt confused anyone, am rambling again i think? NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE. thanks.
Posted By: sdibias

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/15/05 01:17 AM

I now see how you got your post++ count spinny, 3 seperate posts in 5 minutes, laugh
Posted By: Matthew

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/15/05 07:45 AM

Wow... I really shouldn't be taking the time to do this, but I got bored and came back for a peek to see if anyone had responded to me post, and found an outright attack on my beliefs, that I didn't even bring up.

sdibias - you said "I just don't see it..." What don't you see? The only thing I said anything about was clarifying an incorrect statement you had made. There was nothing to "not see." Then you had the audacity to tell me I don't know what I believe.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It makes sense that I am right in my comment about kids. We both know that you obviously have a choice to have lots of kids, but this certainly stems from the fact that you're supposedly bringing them down from the Heavens, It makes sense to me...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That, said right after I told you what the Mormon position on it is (that there isn't one, and I know that from very personal experience, seeing as how I'm a Mormon), is very directly calling me a liar. It doesn't matter what "makes sense to you" - I told you what the Mormon doctrine is. I promise I'm not lying to you.

Then you go on and make numerous unwarranted, uncalled for attacks against my church. Even though all of this has been extensively covered in the Mormons thread, I'll go over it all again briefly, so you don't have to search through that mess.

First off, polygamy - it's in the Bible. Remember Jacob? Abraham? David? Solomon? There must be some instance in which the practice of polygamy is ordained of God, for it was in the case of those Old Testament prophets. Can you explain to me the Christian doctrine behind those polygamists? The Book of Mormon has an explanation of it, and it's in Jacob 2:27-30 - it basically says that the purpose of polygamy is to raise up a people unto God. So, the practice of polygamy has Biblical precedent (which you cannot lightly dismiss), and we have a reason for it. Now to the part about "abandoning" it. John Taylor, the 3rd prophet of my church, spent most of his time as prophet in hiding because of the issue of polygamy, and many members of my church went to prison for it. But he didn't claim revelation in order to make things easier for himself or for the members. He died in hiding, then Wilford Woodruff became the next prophet. He was in hiding for a while to, and would have stayed in hiding (as evidenced by the fact that John Taylor died before he gave up what he believed (and I believe) was a commandment of God) had he not been commanded by God to stop the practice. There was none of this "shortly thereafter" stuff. And the "Publicly at least" - now you accuse my whole church of being liars. There are people in southern Utah and other places who practice polygamy and call themselves Mormon, but they have no affiliation with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormon church). Anyone who has practiced polygamy since 1890 has been excommunicated. This is a very cursory defense of polygamy, but I don't really have the time or the interest right now to do more. You might be able to find more on the Mormon thread if you're interested.

As far as what you claimed about the Book of Mormon - have you ever read it? There is power in that book, and I would suggest (ask) that you read it before making judgements like that. Certainly there are parts that say the same thing as the Bible - you'd think God would say the same thing to different people, so there should be some overlap. Does the fact that the New Testament says some of the same things as the Old Testament make the New Testament false? Again there's a whole lot more I could say about it, but I don't have time, and chances are you don't really care anyway (if you want to get into evidences of authorship, there's this ancient Hebrew literary form called chiasmus I would like to introduce to you, of which the best example in all world literature, ever, is in the Book of Mormon - kinda suggests it was written by an ancient Israelite, doesn't it?). I would suggest (ask, even plead) that you postpone judgement on the Book of Mormon until you've read it yourself, cover to cover. Anything less would only give you a prejudiced, uninformed opinion. Blatantly attacking something you have no experience with isn't something Christ would do, is it?

Third, you mentioned (what we refer to as) baptism for the dead. Interesting that you bring this one up too; see, it's also in the Bible. Look up 1 Corinthians 15:29. That's not where we get our doctrine from, but it's evidence that the early Christians did it. I won't take more time here defending the fact that it is a practice ordained by God (if the Bible isn't evidence enough of that), because you mentioned Hitler. Honestly, I don't know anything about this alleged "cover-up," but if Hitler or Stalin wanted a chance to repent, do you think Christ would give it to him? Who are you to say someone is unworthy of forgiveness? Now, I'm not saying that my church thinks either one of them has been forgiven (we don't know - that's between him and God). When we do a baptism in behalf of someone who is dead, what we believe happens is they have the opportunity to either accept it or reject it - it's not forced upon them. So I see no problem in performing a baptism in behalf of Adolf Hitler, because if he accepted it, that means he repented, and God got one more prodigal son back that I'm sure He'd be very happy to have, and if he didn't, that's his problem. We are not condoning their actions by performing a baptism in behalf of them.

And, last, was this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Mormons were vilified by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in his first Sherlock Holmes story, "A Study in Scarlet." It was also Mormon settlers who precipitated the war between Earth and Klendathu in the movie Starship Troopers.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really don't see what the point of this is. The only purpose this has is to belittle my church. It says nothing of doctrine, it doesn't even make one of the all-to-frequent character attacks on the leaders of my church. The only thing it says is that someone made fun of us. What in the world does that prove? If I go and make a joke about Jews, does that all of a sudden count as evidence that Judaism is false? No, it just means I need to repent, 'cause I'm guilty of belittling someone else. I've been in lots of religious discussions before, and I've never seen this - comedic satire used as evidence in a theological debate.

So, I just don't see where all of this came from. All of these attacks, and all I said was "Mormons think families are important." The only part of your post that was in any way called for was the first two paragraphs, and even that was just calling me a liar. Why get so defensive, even offensive? I was very offended by that post, and I got pretty upset. I tried very hard not to be angry back at you, but I'm sorry if I didn't do a good job all the time. I really don't have time to keep on doing this, and it's all repeats of the same thing, anyway. If I thought you really cared I would be happy to take the time to explain these things to you, but it's been my experience that no one who makes attacks like that will ever listen if I try to answer them. Feel free to prove me wrong - please do. I would love it if people would stop just blindly believing everything they're told about my church from antagonistic sources (which is interesting, because that blind obedience is something we are very often accused of (which is also extremely false)), and actually listen to someone who personally knows what they're talking about.

I guess the whole point of this is - please don't believe everything you read about my church (unless you get it from the right source: lds.org or mormon.org). I can promise you that almost everything you can find about Mormonism that's not written by a Mormon is almost entirely either outright lies or intentionally misleading. I've seen the claims people make about my church, and I've found the answers to them (I've been through this kind of thing a lot). Please postpone judgement, like Christ told us to do.

And now I really don't have time for this anymore, so if anyone is interested in hearing the truth about my church feel free to send me a private message.

(Sorry, Allen, that this isn't in the Mormon thread, but this is where sdibias brought it up)
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/15/05 05:50 PM

I cant answer for others here. it is better to learn about other's religions and respect our differences-the right to disagree without judgement. Im sorry for any offense by me. we can all learn from your posts and others here, me too. agree to disagree is my policy. I find most religions of interests myself. [I recently looked up the mormom website for research on my own]. we each take what we need from the Bible, form different perspectives, they had these issues B.C and A.D. churches fighting over which religion should rule etc. not unusual. dont fret it. God will work this out for all involved in time. the more we learn, the less we judge? I hope. Im not perfect either. and cant throw that first stone. your cool by me whatever your background/faith. [;
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/15/05 06:10 PM

maybe allen or steve etc could give you a better answer.
Posted By: sdibias

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/19/05 12:08 AM

Matthew, I too have little time to write at the current moment, and looking at the "Mormon" thread, I don't have time to read that either (40+ pages or so) Like you, I have lots of studying to do, as well as work and these bulletin boards seem to lure me in like a fish on a hook, i just can't find the time at the current moment to reply to our post.

I too agree that maybe I should have posted this in the other thread, my appologies for not doing so.

I will however reply when I have the time.

And if I offended you, please accept my appology.
Posted By: spinster

Re: WERE WE IN HEAVEN BEFORE WE WERE BORN? - 01/19/05 12:57 AM

Hi, Ive been guilty of misthreadingon here or even offending others. never my intent. I bet he [matt]is ok with you by now. we miss you! [; ALOT.
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