Home
Christ's return
Posted By: Joel33
Christ's return - 09/16/08 03:57 PM
Thoughts on the second coming of Christ...
Are we done once it happens?
What happens afterward?
What exactly are we waiting for?
Why are we here?
Where are we going?
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 09/18/08 03:31 AM
Are we done once it happens?
Done what?
We will all be perfect in an instant with glorified bodies.
What exactly are we waiting for?
What do you mean? Do you mean what are we waiting for now?
We are here to be loved by God and to love God.
We are going to eternal life in the celestial kingdom.
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 09/19/08 03:19 PM
Please don't use Mormon-speak - this is a Christian website and we should use terms that are universal here. Just say heaven
Thanks for answering though.
I must say I am surprised that it took nearly 36 hours for someone to respond to that post. I'm not surprised it was you.
The problem is this... Christ's return should be the ultimate event in our lives and the one thing that we are all waiting for with greater anticipation than anything else.
I can understand our friends in coastal Texas not having a chance to shoot of some thoughts on this - the most important pending event in human history. But I find it striking that no one had a comment before 36 hours elapsed. I'll be even more surprised if no one else has any thoughts.
If this site has truly become a place where the only person willing to have meaningful discussion is you, Echo, then that's too bad.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 09/19/08 09:33 PM
I must say I am surprised that it took nearly 36 hours for someone to respond to that post. I'm not surprised it was you.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I was off on vacation and that is why I couldn't respond sooner than I did.
I am glad to be home though. Vacations are hard work!
Christ's return should be the ultimate event in our lives and the one thing that we are all waiting for with greater anticipation than anything else
I totally agree with you
So how would you reply to your own questions in the first post?
Posted By: SenorElMouse
Re: Christ's return - 09/20/08 08:01 AM
Guess I'll throw what I think into the fray.
Are we done once it happens?
No. That would contradict the fourth question for me. I think the point of existence to to carry on, so how would having everything come to an end fit into that?
What happens afterward?
Afterward? Dunno. If I had to register a guess it would be like sleeping in a feeling of bliss. Years ago, I remember waking up some mornings in the summer, lying in my bed for hours just feeling amazing. Maybe it's like that?
What exactly are we waiting for?
I think everyone's waiting for a sign. People pray, people go to church for what; knowledge that there's something out there that will put meaning into their lives. So I guess everyone's just waiting for a sign to prove that their way of thinking was right.
Why are we here?
Self preservation. Other than that I really don't know. I say self preservation not with the usual "Oh we're here to push the human race forward" and all that other jargon; but in the sense that if we weren't meant to be here, we'd all have been either killed off or in a lot worse state by now.
Where are we going?
Going? Man, I don't even know where I'm going this weekend. I should hope that wherever I'm going later on will be nice, but I'll take a quiet place to relax and spend the rest of eternity in peace as well.
Posted By: embie
Re: Christ's return - 09/20/08 09:37 PM
I decided to not read anyone elses responses before I wrote my own...
Thoughts on the second coming of Christ...
Are we done once it happens?Not exactly sure what you mean by "done". Done as in dead, nothing, nada?, Or done as will we no longer be required to "do" anything. I think we will still be used for a purpose in Heaven. I think based on how we used the gifts that were given to us and how we spent our lives will determine how the Lord will use us in Heaven. I think we will each have our own assignments of service.
What happens afterward?All the dead will rise again and our souls will be reunited with our now changed bodies. There will be a separation of believers from non-believers and we will stand before the Lord and account for our lives. Then the Kingdom will be turned over to God the Father.
What exactly are we waiting for?For Christ to come back, but I don't believe that will happen until the Gospel message reaches every ear.
Why are we here?To spread the Gospel of Christ.
Where are we going?I'm going to Heaven \0/
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 09/23/08 02:00 PM
Thoughts on the second coming of Christ...
cant wait. wish The Lord would come now. IT is in fact the Pinnacle of our Hope.
Are we done once it happens?
When Christ comes and takes the Church. We are not done. Scripture tells of the 1000 year reign. It also speaks of eternity with Christ.
What happens afterward?
eternity.
What exactly are we waiting for?
in eternity? Or now?
If now , we are waiting for CBrist to come for His Bride (the church). And to meet Him in sky and be ushered into Eternity.
(sounds crazy when you just read it back to yourself !)
iN ETERNITY, TIME WONT EXIST, WE WAIT FOR NOTHING. wE SIMPLY EXIST WHOLLY WITH OUR MAKER FOREVER.
Why are we here?
John 3:16. The great commission.
Where are we going?
We call it Heaven. You call it celestial, or terrestrial or something like that. The third heaven.
Lord, dont pass me by...
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 09/25/08 02:52 PM
But I find it striking that no one had a comment before 36 hours elapsed.
Joel, where are ya? It's been 48 hours.
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 09/25/08 04:39 PM
I didn't start the thread to share my thoughts
I only started it to hear others
my thoughts appear to be overly controversial
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 09/26/08 04:34 AM
Share your thoughts. I think they are important, not controversial.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 09/29/08 02:00 AM
we differ - so be it. It has been determined - you and "we" are secure in our beliefs. At least you arent awaiting 72 virgins like the Muslims....or Achmed the dead terrorist .
Posted By: Allen
Re: Christ's return - 09/29/08 12:47 PM
SILENCE!!!
I KEEL YOU!
Posted By: Allen
Re: Christ's return - 09/29/08 12:59 PM
I can understand our friends in coastal Texas not having a chance to shoot of some thoughts on this - the most important pending event in human history. But I find it striking that no one had a comment before 36 hours elapsed. I'll be even more surprised if no one else has any thoughts.
If this site has truly become a place where the only person willing to have meaningful discussion is you, Echo, then that's too bad.
Most everyone within a hundred miles of here didn't have electricity, some still don't. Once we got electricity back we had to spend time digging ourselves or others out. But you knew that
My beliefs are very similar to Nabster's, we have similar backgrounds. I don't see anything I disagree with in Echo's statements either.
Posted By: embie
Re: Christ's return - 10/02/08 09:39 PM
I on the other hand must be all wrong...
Posted By: Allen
Re: Christ's return - 10/08/08 04:13 AM
You were
mostly correct
I don't see any differences between yours and nabster's answer. I'd like to hear Joel's take on it
Posted By: Allen
Re: Christ's return - 10/08/08 04:13 AM
You were
mostly correct
I don't see any differences between yours and nabster's answer. I'd like to hear Joel's take on it
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 10/08/08 08:42 PM
When Christ returns it will usher in the Millenial era. The righteous will be caught up into a cloud and the earth will be cleansed by fire and the wicked will be burned.
When the earth is cleansed we will return to it and live in 1,000 years of peace as Christ reigns personally upon the earth.
Christ's return will also usher in the first ressurection and those righteous souls throughout history who have died will be resurrected and recieve their inheritance.
At the end of the 1,000 years all the righteous will have recieved their inheritance and those who were judged to have been less faithful will also have been resurrected to their station/glory.
Then we will be given all that God has be able to do what God does.
Posted By: embie
Re: Christ's return - 10/08/08 10:55 PM
So Joel, does that mean that Mormons believe that everyone goes to Heaven, but your faithfulness on Earth determines to which level you are elevated?
Can you tell me what the various stations are called and what each one represents?
(...and I'm asking in earnest, not trying to be sarcastic at all...)
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/09/08 05:06 AM
I believe we are living in the 1000 year reign right now.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/09/08 02:00 PM
Echo???? what????
If Christ were reighning it would not be chaotic and full of filth. Can you use some scripture to show why you believe that???
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 10/09/08 08:08 PM
Pretty much embie.
You'd have to be really rotten to be considered a son of perdition and not recieve any glory.
There are three Kingdoms
The Celestial Kingdom - D&C 76:54-70
They are they who are the church of the bFirstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given aall things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of cGod—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.
The Terrestrial Kingdom - D&C 76:71-80
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without blaw;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the btestimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to bwrite while we were yet in the Spirit.
The Telestial Kingdom: D&C 76:81-89
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the atestimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who adeny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until theb last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.
89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;
Reference also 1 Cor 15:40-41
that is all
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/10/08 02:23 AM
Echo???? what????
If Christ were reighning it would not be chaotic and full of filth. Can you use some scripture to show why you believe that???
Revelation 20:1-14
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." The "angel" coming down out of heaven is Jesus who is often called: "the angel of the Lord" in the OT. Jesus came to destroy the devil's work (1 John 3:8)and he did that through the preaching of the gospel message.
The "chain" gives us a picture much like that of a beast or wild and Vicious dog
who is alive and well because he is chained up. A vicious dog on a chain is still able to attack those who go within his reach and so also with Satan because the Bible says the devil is free to prowl around like a roaring lion looking for somebody to devour.(1 Peter 5:8) Yet he simply cannot harm those who are beyond his reach. Therefore the chain represents the original gospel. The chain(gospel)hinders the devils attempt to lead people astray into Hell. Those who believe in a restored gospel, a different gospel, or no gospel are those whom Satan can attack and harm or destroy.
The time Satan is "set free" represents "widespread" apostacy and unbelief in the gospel.
"1000": The number 10 in the Bible always represents "completeness" The cube of 1000 is 10
So 1000 represents a complete period of time and that time is the entire NT period. The Bible uses 1000 also in Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. Those passages speak of the timelessness of God. They very clearly show that when the Bible uses "1000 years" that number is most definately not to be taken literally as the view I am against in this thread supposes.
There are no passages in scripture that say the devil will be unable to prowl around devouring people prior to the judgement.
There will not be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as you are thinking because the bible clearly teaches his kingdom is NOT of this world. (John 18:36)
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.Notice in the above passages that the Saints "came to life" and reigned with Christ for the 1000 years. And this "coming to life" is connected to the first resurrection.
The first ressurrection represents our physical death in which the soul goes to heaven. (these Saints died) The second ressurrection represents the time our bodies will be reunited with our souls on the last day at the judgment.
So those who were beheaded died and their souls went to heaven and they reigned with Christ from heaven for 1000 years. Those 1000 years not being literal nor were they reigning on earth. The passages clearly point out that the "souls" reigned with Christ. It doesn't say the body and soul reigned with Christ. If there were a literal reign of Christ on earth, clearly the believers who died would have a body and soul, not just a soul.
That would be my answer to your question.
Posted By: Allen
Re: Christ's return - 10/10/08 04:30 AM
There will not be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as you are thinking because the bible clearly teaches his kingdom is NOT of this world. (John 18:36)
"Is" can be a LOT different from "will be". IOW, I don't think "is" rules out change.
Joel, you started off pretty good then lost me quickly as you wound down to the end
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/10/08 02:31 PM
Revelation 20:1-14
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."
echo, are you saying Satan is not deceiving nations anymore and Christ is currently reigning?
And we are in the midst ofa "1000 year reign on earth"?
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/10/08 04:17 PM
echo, are you saying Satan is not deceiving nations anymore and Christ is currently reigning?
We have the Gospel of God's grace and that keeps the nations from being decieved. Yes Christ reign's right now through the gospel.
And we are in the midst ofa "1000 year reign on earth"?
Yes, but not a literal 1000 years, 1000 is symbolic for the entire NT period.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/12/08 12:26 AM
this world does not sound smell or feel or look like or anything like Christ's reign. If it is He is a weak Christ.
You are saying New Testament till now and moving forward is the reign Christ as well???
Ya know , you can look around and tell Satan is not bound. He is everywhere on this earth , wreaking havoc. How can you reason NOw is Christs reign?
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/12/08 03:27 AM
this world does not sound smell or feel or look like or anything like Christ's reign. If it is He is a weak Christ.
Was Christ weak when he was despised, beaten, rejected, crucified and put to death?
You are saying New Testament till now and moving forward is the reign Christ as well???
Yes, right up until the end of the world.
Ya know , you can look around and tell Satan is not bound. He is everywhere on this earth , wreaking havoc. How can you reason NOw is Christs reign?
Christ reigns in our hearts through the gospel.
Jesus didn't say: "I WILL overcome the world". He said: "take heart, I HAVE overcome the world"
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/14/08 12:15 AM
DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE "RAPTURE" AS IN 1 THESS 4:16 ?
BECAUSE Christ's COMING IS AFTER THIS AND SO IS THE 1000 YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST. ACCORDING TO REVELATION 20 THE 1000 YEAR PERIODS ARE LITERAL. arg , darn caps....
Not figurative.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
First the rapture of the church , next the 7 tear tribulation, next the second coming of Christ with His Bride (the church) and then we reign together a 1000 years.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/14/08 12:25 AM
Also Christ certainly was not weak during crucifixion, but how that relates stumps me. Christ did not reign during His time on Earth. The Church began and Gods plan went forth, but it was far from reigning.
Secondly, you said "right up until the end of the world" - exactly when is that according to scripture.
Christ reigns in hearts , yes. But this is taking literal and making it figurative. Everything the Bible proclaims is His coming a second time to set up HIs Reign on Earth. IN power and majesty. To say His reign is taking place anbd has been since the NT church is somewhat ----uhhh---nuts? Was he reigning in the dark ages? was he reigning during the holocaust of His people, the jews? was he reigning opver EARTH when entire populations of people had never heard of Him? The answer is no. Reigning in our hearts yes, BUt our hearts and the Earth are never tied together in scripture.
Does WELS believe or adhere to the doctrine of the Blessed Hope? Christ coming for His church and taking us from this earth before He comes again?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/14/08 12:46 AM
JOhn 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
This is not about reigning Echo. It is about the world beating down on Christians, but in His resurrection he overcame - it is done.
Right now Satan is the ruler of this world, the Bible proclaims it. We as Christians are in opposition to it. "Be in the world but not of it."
When the Devil offered to give Christ all the cities of the world, he could not have done this unless he owned them and Christ did not refute his ownership either.
2 corinthians 4 3-4
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Hello?
What say ye to this?
Let me just say , i would love to believe we are in the reign of Christ but we just cannot be at this point in History. It inst Biblical accurate to say so.
Posted By: Jusselin
Re: Christ's return - 10/14/08 12:47 PM
Telestial? man that hurts when you get kicked there...just a little comic relief
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/15/08 02:07 PM
echo, are you checking what the WELS would say ??? where did you go. I am genuinely interested in how your denomination has arrived at this doctrineing Nab
Posted By: Jusselin
Re: Christ's return - 10/15/08 03:04 PM
no body thought the telestial joke was funny...i thought it was just a little funny
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 10/15/08 05:34 PM
Now that I've responded, she'll see the thread. maybe you'll get an answer.
Posted By: embie
Re: Christ's return - 10/15/08 08:04 PM
Juss, I laughed (alot) at your joke...
(maybe that's why Allen questions my Christianity... ROFL!
)
Posted By: embie
Re: Christ's return - 10/15/08 08:07 PM
Joel, I have another question for you. Once your kingdom has been determined, is that it or can you eventually get to a higher level?
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/16/08 01:28 AM
Nabster, first, what is your definition of the rapture?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/16/08 04:30 AM
Come on echo -
Thessalonians verses stated above. We shall all be "caught up in the sky" - you know where I stand.
What about 2 corinthians 4: 3-4?
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 10/16/08 02:50 PM
There is progression within the glory of the each Kingdom, but there is not progression from glory to glory.
Judgment is final.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/17/08 03:37 AM
Nabster
Let's slow down. Otherwise we are giving each other too much info at once and nothing has a chance to sink in.
DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE "RAPTURE" AS IN 1 THESS 4:16 ?
I believe this verse is refering to the rapture that happens at the end of the world.
What do you believe happens after the literal 1000 years has ended and the tribulation that follows the 1000 years?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/17/08 12:08 PM
yeah lets slow down. 2 cor. 4:3-4. please.
Christ is not reigning right now as we speak and type. We are not in the reign of Christ. Chronologically it has not occurred. 1000 years is literal not figurative.
The tribulation doesnt follow the 1000 years. The tribulation follows the rapture of the church and precedes Christ's second coming.I am a pre trib adherent. After the 1000 years? We dont need to go there yet...
Please asnwer 2 cor.4:3-4 first so we dont go too fast.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/17/08 03:27 PM
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." What point are you trying to make with this verse?
The tribulation follows the rapture of the church and precedes Christ's second coming.
Wouldn't that be the third coming then?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/18/08 02:59 AM
come on Echo...keep up will ya???
You said Christ reigns in our hearts and is now reigning, I said not so. @ cor.4:3-4
...The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
It plainly says " the god of this age has blinded..." Satan. Christ is not reigning right now. He is not the GOd of this world...right now. Satan is ruler of this current world. Christ WILL reign, but he isnt currently. yes , I know in our hearts, but not this world and scripture speaks of reigning on the Earth.
To answer above. When we meet Christ before tribulation on the rapture. We meet Him in the air, he never to earth and in the twinkling of an eye we will be caught up with him...it is not Him coming to earth. therefor not the second coming...
Nab
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/18/08 06:34 AM
come on Echo...keep up will ya???
Sorry,... my head is foggy these days from trying to home school my 8 year old son who is rocket fuel propelled, gets distracted every minute of the day and is strong willed.
You said Christ reigns in our hearts and is now reigning, I said not so. @ cor.4:3-4
Your thinking like a Jew in Jesus' day. Your expecting Jesus to set up his Kingdom in this world. The Bible clearly teaches that his kingdom is NOT of this world.
But Jesus does reign right now:
Luke 1:33 "and he will
reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
1 Corinthians 15:25 "For he must
reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."
Clearly he reign's while his enemies are alive and well. He Reigns until they are no more.
Also, according to your beliefs, we can know when Jesus will return: 1000 literal years + 7 years tribulation and then Jesus comes. This is entirely unbiblical. The Bible clearly teaches that nobody knows when Jesus will return.
What is the purpose of the 1000 year reign? It is a reign of "peace and rest". In Jesus we already have "peace and rest". To take your viewpoint is to place the peace and rest that Jesus has already given us and act as though that time hasn't come yet by placing it at some point in the future just as the jews would do rather than placing it 2000 years ago on the cross. It is a denial of Christ and his work.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/18/08 12:52 PM
Who does the Bible say the ruler of this world is?
When Jesus left this earth, he said He would send the comforter to us, The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is all over this world in Christians to give Christians peace and comfort.
Reign - a period during which something or somebody is dominant or powerful;
IN this world Christ is not Dominant and powerful.
Don't get me wrong. I love the Lord with all my heart and mean no disrespect or anything. But in terms of reigning on this Earth, it is not time yet. Satan is still ruler of this world. If Christ is reigning , as you say, how can the rise of an Antichrist take place? If Christ is reigning, how can the state of this messed up world be as it is?
TO reign is to be powerful and dominant.
No one knows the time of Christ's coming. No one knows the time of the rapture...But the rapture will signify a point in history of prophecy being fulfilled, as will the 7 year tribulation period when Antichrist signs a peace agreement with the Nation of Israel. Some chronological things can be known and give clue to times and seasons. The establishment of Israel as a nation was clearly prophetic and gave insight to a time and season, and helped many realize the "the end" draws near... Prophecy is not part of WELS teaching so I don't expect you to understand...
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/18/08 07:08 PM
Who does the Bible say the ruler of this world is?
Satan. And that is not going to change according the that very verse you pointed out. Yet according to you, it will change! But we are not of this world and neither is the kingdom of heaven. Christ reigns over heaven and earth from heaven not earth. Who does the Bible say reigns even though the ruler of the world is Satan? 1 Corinthians 15;25 "1 Corinthians 15:25 "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."
While Satan may be the ruler of the world, Jesus is reigning from a higher place. He is in the process of putting all his enemies under his feet as we speak. We are in the 1000 year reign of Christ.
The world and the ruler of this world looked at Jesus on the cross and said Jesus has been defeated because he is a weak Christ. But the trained eye that is not of this world knows that the cross wasn't a place of defeat but it was the place of victory! Even though it didn’t “smell, feel or look like it” as you said.
So also it is with what you see and hear and smell in life, to you it looks like Jesus isn't reigning but to the trained eye, it is his victory! Even though it doesn’t feel, look or smell like Christ is reigning; it is in fact his victory! The Jews were blinded by their idea of how “victory” should look and decided that Jesus on the cross was his defeat. How wrong they were! Christ was never more powerful than when he died on the cross!
IN this world Christ is not Dominant and powerful
To the trained eye, he is dominant and powerful. Come to a WELS church and let your eyes be trained to see just how dominant and powerful he is right now.
If Christ is reigning , as you say, how can the rise of an Antichrist take place? If Christ is reigning, how can the state of this messed up world be as it is?
It takes place because God allows it for his own good purpose. If God didn't allow it, it wouldn't happen, right? And if God is able to choose to allow it to happen or not to happen, he is in fact reigning with more authority than Satan is.
No one knows the time of Christ's coming. No one knows the time of the rapture...But the rapture will signify a point in history of prophecy being fulfilled, as will the 7 year tribulation period when Antichrist signs a peace agreement with the Nation of Israel. Some chronological things can be known and give clue to times and seasons. The establishment of Israel as a nation was clearly prophetic and gave insight to a time and season, and helped many realize the "the end" draws near... Prophecy is not part of WELS teaching so I don't expect you to understand...
Prophecy is a part of WELS teaching, just not present day prophets with NEW prophecies.
Where in the Bible does it say the antichrist signs a peace agreement with Isreal????
That teaching, the 1000 year literal reign, nullifies God's word which clearly says nobody will know when the second coming is.
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 10/21/08 10:03 PM
typical WELS double speak and gross interpretation.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/22/08 01:14 PM
i dont have the time to go into prophecy and literal and figurative scriptire. Bible scholars across amny denominations would agree there is a "catching away of the church on Earth, then the 7 year tribulation , then Jesus comes to Earth a second time to reign on Earth. WELS is out there somewhere else, extrapolating things from scripture which dont exist...I just dont have the time to argue...or debate...
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/22/08 02:23 PM
i dont have the time to go into prophecy and literal and figurative scriptire.
The Book of Revelation is figurative. Filled with symbolism from beggining to finish.
Bible scholars across amny denominations would agree there is a "catching away of the church on Earth, then the 7 year tribulation , then Jesus comes to Earth a second time to reign on Earth.
God preserves a remnant.
My advice to anyone who wants to know the truth would be to examine both sides and compare it with ALL of scripture, not just some of it.
WELS is out there somewhere else, extrapolating things from scripture which dont exist...I just dont have the time to argue...or debate...
WELS uses ALL OF SCRIPTURE to come to the conclusions they do. Everything they believe is based on the word of God alone so it is very scriptural. They always make the time to show you how they reach their biblical conclusions.
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 10/22/08 05:18 PM
Next question. Since Nabster disagrees with you, is he on your or WELS's "not going to heaven" list?
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/22/08 08:46 PM
Next question. Since Nabster disagrees with you, is he on your or WELS's "not going to heaven" list?
If Nabster believe's that Christ has already reconciled us to himself, then Nabster is going to heaven even though we disagree on these other points. See verse below:
2 Corinthians 5:18-20 ”And all things are of God, who hath
reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the
ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.”
If Nabster thinks we now have to go through a process of reconciling ourselves to God, then he is not on the: "going to heaven" list yet. See quote below:
“Those who take the course of honest confession of their sin
further the process of repentance, of adjustment in their lives,
of RECONCILIATION with God.” (Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball page 188, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (LDS))
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/23/08 02:58 AM
WELS clearly does not use ALL of the BIble. You leave out Acts 2. Being filled with the Holy Ghost after one has become a believer is Biblical - but not preached or practiced or adhered to. And it did not end in the Church age either....Biblically speaking.
If all of Revelation is figurative and none of it is literal then what does this mean figuratively - because it is in fact Literal.
Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Not figurative. He will come and all shall see...etc..
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/23/08 05:18 AM
WELS clearly does not use ALL of the BIble. You leave out Acts 2. Being filled with the Holy Ghost after one has become a believer is Biblical - but not preached or practiced or adhered to. And it did not end in the Church age either....Biblically speaking.
First I would ask you if there is a sound like the blowing of a violent wind and what seems like tongues of fire seperating and coming to rest on each person that you believe has the gift of tongues? If not, Then you leave out and ignore Acts 2.
WELS uses all of the Bible. I assure you. Speaking in Tongues and New Revelation (prophecy) have passed away because the perfect has come. The Bible is the perfect and complete Word of God:
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
If all of Revelation is figurative and none of it is literal then what does this mean figuratively - because it is in fact Literal.
Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am talking about passages in Revelation where descriptive words are used such as passages like Satan being bound on a chain. He isn't bound on a literal chain. Another passage states that Jesus has a sharp double edged sword in his mouth, Jesus doesn't have a literal sword in his mouth, it is symbolism.
Another passage states that believers will become a pillar in the temple of God. If believers literally become a literal pillar(stone) in a temple in heaven doesn't sound like much fun.
The Book of Revelation even gives us symbolism and then later lets us know it is symbolism!:
Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."
The Symbolism used in the words "seven stars" doesn't literally mean seven stars, it literally means angels of the seven churchs.
The symbolism used in the words "seven golden lampstands" doesn't literally mean seven golden lampstands, it is symbolic of seven literal churchs. The symbolism in "Satan is bound with a chain" doesn't literally mean he is bound with a literal chain, it is symbolic of the literal gospel. The symbolism of the 1000 years isn't a literal 1000 years, it is symbolic of a complete period of time as I pointed out earlier.
You have to read the context. The context indicates when to read it as symbolism and when to take it literally.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/24/08 02:18 PM
read all of acts and conclude it is for early church only and not everyone "all generations". You cant. But WELS (and many others) don't adhere to it because it is controversial and not seeker friendly...
This world and it's denominations, that interpret scripture their way in order to justify their doctrines, wear me out. That the full gospel is not embraced by so many must disgust Christ. Who laid down His life for it.
You WELS folks have clung to grace so hard (which I don't really have a problem with because is what makes Christianity unique and special) that you have looked beyond other facets of the Word all the while claiming to adhere to all of it.
DO you believe in miracles? Do you believe in the laying on of hands and anointing with oil and calling for the elders of the church to pray over the sick and hurting? Do you DO that in church on Sundays. Do you believe and practice corporate worship as in the early church, where freedom reigned and people expressed themselves and their love for Christ through worship, or do you sit quietly in pews and sing some choruses with no passion and no emotion?
Do you dismiss Corinthians and the gifts of the spirit, or just pick the ones that aren't controversial? Teachers, evangelists, prophets, tongues and interpretation of tongues...etc. Because if all have passed away so have teachers and evangelists and so on. Do you dismiss when Paul talking to believers asked if they had received the baptism of the Holy Ghost "since having believed"? And since Christ is same yesterday today and forever and changeth not - is that same Baptism only for them then? I don't see how people reason away these simple scripture truths in order to fit into their little denominations so they can find a church and an organization where they can go and be comfortable...
sorry for the rant, but all of you reading this who have NEVER experienced the fullness of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit "since having believed" are missing out on one of the greatest joys in life. not to mention your witness and passion for Christ increases with it...hold on - maybe that is why so many don't want it- they will be passionate and have to wear their faith on their sleeve in public and face scrutiny in a world where people ridicule the Christian who seems to be on fire for Jesus.
All of you who just "don't believe" in the baptism of the Holy Ghost I challenge you to seek it whole heartedly without reservation and learn about it and then be the judge for yourself. But seek it and you will indeed find it if you seek it with your whole heart. I dare you...
You cant lose. If you seek and truly dont recieve you can put this to rest in your relationship with God. But if you seek and receive, you will be changed forever and your love for Jesus and passion to do the work of the CHurch will increase and you will have again put to rest this little "controversy".
Echo, let us start with you, and all of you who are reading this who dont " believe " in this Gift of God to His people.
My rant is over...
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/25/08 02:50 AM
All of you who just "don't believe" in the baptism of the Holy Ghost I challenge you to seek it whole heartedly without reservation and learn about it and then be the judge for yourself. But seek it and you will indeed find it if you seek it with your whole heart. I dare you...
There is ONE BAPTISM, not two.
Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;"
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/25/08 12:10 PM
So you are ignoring Paul's writing.
I figured you wuold actually cling to that verse. You have used it out of context before and do so again.
Here is what I mean. We use the term baptism of the Holy Spirit, to indicate a second event of fullness. It does not replace or lessen Salvation.
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.
Act 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Strangely enoug hhe was in Ephesus at the time. Ephesians is the verse you quote which Paul too, wrote. to the church and people of Ephesus.
Since you quote Ephesians 4:5 what do you make of Ephesians 4:11-12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Prophets are in there along with pastors and evangelists.
Prophets from time to time prophesy for edification of the church and the body of Christ. It isnt new information or predicting of the future...it is insight into God's word for believers. For strength and increased faith and from time to time a word of knowledge over someone by someone. LED by the Spirit of God. ANd if a prophecy come to pass untrue, that person claiming is false. Strict adherence to Biblical principle and instruction.
I dont believe in open cannon and new revelation as do Mormons and Joel33.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/25/08 04:15 PM
So you are ignoring Paul's writing.
I am ignoring nothing. But you are ignoring the sound like the blowing of a violent wind and what seems like tongues of fire seperating and coming to rest on each person that recieved the gift of tongues. Do those signs accompany the gift of tongues in your church?
Here is what I mean. We use the term baptism of the Holy Spirit, to indicate a second event of fullness. It does not replace or lessen Salvation.
There is no "second event" no second Baptism. There is "ONE Baptism".
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.
Act 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
In Acts 19:1-8 that you listed, there is only ONE Baptism in which people recieve the Holy Spirit. "John's Baptism" which these people had, was a PRE Christ Baptism. It was a Baptism to prepare the JEWS for Christ's arrival.
Since you quote Ephesians 4:5 what do you make of Ephesians 4:11-12
First off, the gift of tongues is NOT listed there.
Second, One who prophecies, by definition, is one who brings us God's word and who expounds on that word. Every believer who brings God's word to others is a prophet. Since the Bible is completed, a present day prophet will bring God's existing word to others. The "fruit" of a present day false prophet is: "new revelation" since the Bible teaches that all revelation has now been revealed.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/25/08 10:08 PM
Getting back to the topic at hand.
If you believe Revelation is literal then what do you believe about the Mark of the beast on unbelievers being equal to the prospect of an identification chip implanted under the skin which will be necessary to "buy and sell", possibly, in the very near future? There are many Christians who believe this is the mark of the beast because they take revelation literally.
If you take Revelation literally, then won’t you have to keep yourself from having this chip placed under your skin and won’t you lose everything and die as a result?
Now if Revelation is intended by God to be taken figuratively but you have taken it literally, won’t you be going through the ultimate testing of your faith by first losing everything you have and then dying all for the sake of a false teaching?
My recommendation would be to examine both sides of the figurative/literal teachings on Revelation thoroughly, right now, before the implant becomes a reality. Why die for the sake of a false teaching?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/26/08 11:29 AM
IMPLANt?!?!!??
You are running with something here. Dont know about an implant....
My point above is tongues of fire did NOT accompany all who recvd the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands...and if you call a prophet one who brings the word of God and we are all prophets , you have lost your mind. The Bible clearly it is a gift to some...
Further more, what about my questions to you about what happens in your church in the LOrds Day - What do you DO?
You do not know the scripture when it comes to Pentecostal church doctrines. I understand that. There are multiple instances of believers receiving the Baptism of the HOly Spirit with evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave "utterance". We draw our belief and doctrine from those examples of what clearly seem to be pattern evidence and even proof.
There are no tongues of fire except during the upper room experience.
Furthermore 3 types of tongues...personal worship and prayer to God. Tongues for the edification of the church - always followed by interpretation of those tongues. and tongues as a real language. Study of the original languages show these truths.
Acts 19:6 - no tongues of fire there... BUt after they were baptised and recvd Christ - laying on of hands and holy spirit was recvd.
NO where in there does it say John's baptism was the baptism of the HOly Ghost...I dont think you meant that.
The gifts of the SPirit are clearly listed in Corinthians and ephesians. prophecy and tongues and interpretation of tongues and several others Echo.
And there are no scriptures to say they have passed away.
There is a mark of the beast. Dont know what it is. And you know full well I understand there is much SYMBOLISM in Revelation. Not all literal. BUt the symbolism is of real events and happeniings.
There will be a mark and it will be on the forehead or right hand.Not sure what it is.
Bar codes? chip? name? dont know.But it is clear all who are on the earth during that tribulation period will take the mark or be killed. I wont be here.
I am on the first bus out of here, and believe it is before the tribulation.
Also , again- we are not in the millennial reign of Christ on Earth.
Back to topic at hand...
But please answer questions about what WELS DO in church services I am genuinely interested in your order of service.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/26/08 10:44 PM
and if you call a prophet one who brings the word of God and we are all prophets , you have lost your mind. The Bible clearly it is a gift to some...
Faith is a gift to some as well:
1 Corinthians 12:8-9 "To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
to another faith by the same Spirit..."
We all have faith, but some are given the gift of a greater faith. We all prophecy by sharing the word of God. But some have a greater gift at prophecy, they expound on that word, they know how to pull it together.
DO you believe in miracles? Do you believe in the laying on of hands and anointing with oil and calling for the elders of the church to pray over the sick and hurting? Do you DO that in church on Sundays. Do you believe and practice corporate worship as in the early church, where freedom reigned and people expressed themselves and their love for Christ through worship, or do you sit quietly in pews and sing some choruses with no passion and no emotion?
I believe in miracles. I believe in the power of prayer. We sit quietly in the pews and stand in reverance when the gospel is read. We don't jump around waving our arms in the air because we don't want to distract people from hearing God's word and we don't want to frighten away the shy and timid who don't know God yet.
God doesn't look at the outward, he looks into the heart. He knows our hearts and the passion we have for him within.
You do not know the scripture when it comes to Pentecostal church doctrines. I understand that. There are multiple instances of believers receiving the Baptism of the HOly Spirit with evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave "utterance". We draw our belief and doctrine from those examples of what clearly seem to be pattern evidence and even proof.
There are no tongues of fire except during the upper room experience.
Furthermore 3 types of tongues...personal worship and prayer to God. Tongues for the edification of the church - always followed by interpretation of those tongues. and tongues as a real language. Study of the original languages show these truths.
And your Baptism in the Holy Spirit is also only for SOME for that is what scripture says.
And there are no scriptures to say they have passed away.
I gave you the scripture.
There will be a mark and it will be on the forehead or right hand.Not sure what it is.
Bar codes? chip? name? dont know.But it is clear all who are on the earth during that tribulation period will take the mark or be killed. I wont be here.
I am on the first bus out of here, and believe it is before the tribulation.
If all the believers are on the first bus out, who do you suppose will be left to refuse the mark of the beast?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/26/08 11:41 PM
What I adhere to and why.
The baptism of Christians in the Holy Spirit is accompanied by the initial physical sign of speaking in other tongues (unlearned languages) as the Spirit of God gives them audible expression. (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4,8; 2:4; 8:12-17; 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15:7-9; 1 Cor. 12:1-31)
The Millennial Reign of Christ
The second coming of Christ includes the rapture of the saints, which is our blessed hope, followed by the visible return of Christ with His saints to reign on earth for one thousand years.
* Zechariah 14:5 [KJV/NIV]
* Matthew 24:27 [KJV/NIV]
* Matthew 24:30 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 1:7 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 19:11-14 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 20:1-6 [KJV/NIV]
This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel,
* Ezekiel 37:21,22 [KJV/NIV]
* Zephaniah 3:19,20 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 11:26,27 [KJV/NIV]
and the establishment of universal peace.
* Isaiah 11:6-9 [KJV/NIV]
* Psalms 72:3-8 [KJV/NIV]
* Micah 4:3,4 [KJV/NIV]
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/26/08 11:55 PM
By the way corporate worship to God should be freely expressed. Lifting our hands is a way to show our surrender to Christ, in reverence to HIm. We freely express ourselves in worship because it is liberating , fulfilling and quite frankly enjoyable. You get from it what you put into it. Fervent worship, brings fervent refreshing. We are not "waving our hands around to distract others". I imagine you would be distracted by more than one person praying for you aloud as well...you are unfamiliar with it. I will tell you this, I would want no other group praying for me in time of dire need or physical sickness than pentecoastals who love the Lord.
By the way do you call the elders of the church to lay hands on believers and pray for the sick? It is scriptural and most certainly appropriate. This is done corporately.
Do you or no?
And if you do, do they lay hands on folks and pray, or anoint with oil? It too is scriptural.
I know the answer, ...it is too controversial for yall and you don't. So be it. But it is scriptural, yet you have been taught not to do it. Because it isnt seeker friendly and others would find it odd.
We agree to disagree. We have our beliefs backed by scriptures. without reading anything into them. Literal is literal and figurative is figurative. We believe the whole b+Bible and what it clearly teaches. If you believe we are in the millennial reign until Christ comes, your WELS doctrine has serious misinterpretation.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/30/08 04:43 AM
What I adhere to and why.
The baptism of Christians in the Holy Spirit is accompanied by the initial physical sign of speaking in other tongues (unlearned languages) as the Spirit of God gives them audible expression. (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4,8; 2:4; 8:12-17; 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15:7-9; 1 Cor. 12:1-31)
The Millennial Reign of Christ
The second coming of Christ includes the rapture of the saints, which is our blessed hope, followed by the visible return of Christ with His saints to reign on earth for one thousand years.
* Zechariah 14:5 [KJV/NIV]
* Matthew 24:27 [KJV/NIV]
* Matthew 24:30 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 1:7 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 19:11-14 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 20:1-6 [KJV/NIV]
This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel,
* Ezekiel 37:21,22 [KJV/NIV]
* Zephaniah 3:19,20 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 11:26,27 [KJV/NIV]
and the establishment of universal peace.
* Isaiah 11:6-9 [KJV/NIV]
* Psalms 72:3-8 [KJV/NIV]
* Micah 4:3,4 [KJV/NIV]
Phil 1:3 "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
We already have peace.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 10/30/08 04:44 AM
By the way corporate worship to God should be freely expressed. Lifting our hands is a way to show our surrender to Christ, in reverence to HIm. We freely express ourselves in worship because it is liberating , fulfilling and quite frankly enjoyable. You get from it what you put into it. Fervent worship, brings fervent refreshing. We are not "waving our hands around to distract others". I imagine you would be distracted by more than one person praying for you aloud as well...you are unfamiliar with it. I will tell you this, I would want no other group praying for me in time of dire need or physical sickness than pentecoastals who love the Lord.
By the way do you call the elders of the church to lay hands on believers and pray for the sick? It is scriptural and most certainly appropriate. This is done corporately.
Do you or no?
And if you do, do they lay hands on folks and pray, or anoint with oil? It too is scriptural.
I know the answer, ...it is too controversial for yall and you don't. So be it. But it is scriptural, yet you have been taught not to do it. Because it isnt seeker friendly and others would find it odd.
We agree to disagree. We have our beliefs backed by scriptures. without reading anything into them. Literal is literal and figurative is figurative. We believe the whole b+Bible and what it clearly teaches. If you believe we are in the millennial reign until Christ comes, your WELS doctrine has serious misinterpretation
I don't have the answer to this. Let me go and get the answer and I will let you know.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 10/31/08 03:01 AM
my point is you shuold know. It is SCRIPTURAL. But I understand as well. We are going to disagree unless you see differently. I am persuaded by scripture and personal experience that supports it.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/13/08 03:51 AM
By the way corporate worship to God should be freely expressed. Lifting our hands is a way to show our surrender to Christ, in reverence to HIm. We freely express ourselves in worship because it is liberating , fulfilling and quite frankly enjoyable. You get from it what you put into it. Fervent worship, brings fervent refreshing. We are not "waving our hands around to distract others". I imagine you would be distracted by more than one person praying for you aloud as well...you are unfamiliar with it. I will tell you this, I would want no other group praying for me in time of dire need or physical sickness than pentecoastals who love the Lord.
By the way do you call the elders of the church to lay hands on believers and pray for the sick? It is scriptural and most certainly appropriate. This is done corporately.
Do you or no?
And if you do, do they lay hands on folks and pray, or anoint with oil? It too is scriptural.
I know the answer, ...it is too controversial for yall and you don't. So be it. But it is scriptural, yet you have been taught not to do it. Because it isnt seeker friendly and others would find it odd.
We agree to disagree. We have our beliefs backed by scriptures. without reading anything into them. Literal is literal and figurative is figurative. We believe the whole b+Bible and what it clearly teaches. If you believe we are in the millennial reign until Christ comes, your WELS doctrine has serious misinterpretation.
I learned some interesting stuff. The way you worship and the way I worship are areas of adiaphora. (things neither commanded nor forbidden in scripture). Both are fine and acceptable ways to worship as long as we are acting in love, wisdom and with regards for the truth. Neither way of worship is a moral or doctrinal issue. I was told that arguing over such things is something I shouldn't be participating in.
We don't judge someone's heart in these matters including sincerity or fervency etc.
We do however judge on the basis of a Church's doctrine, confessed or demonstrated faithfulness to Scripture, and Christ-centeredness.
Quotes from WELS:
"The customs of laying on of hands for prayer or anointing the sick with oil are things done freely or not done as a child of God may desire. The text in its context (James 5:13-16) offers a precedent, but not a binding precept. The Greek word for "anoint" used here leads us to believe that the reference is to applying medicinal and soothing means, not to a ceremonial or ritualistic anointing (which would use another Greek word used elsewhere in the New Testament). While we are free to use olive oil, we are also free to use more modern medicines and remedy to reflect what is encouraged. And to use hands to express our intercessions and desire that God's healing power be channeled to the sick brother or sister is fine with us and hardly unheard of. But to assume that we are despising biblical commands or ignoring biblical counsel is inaccurate and, in this case, presumptuously and discourteously leveled as a charge of unfaithfulness."
"On the matter of interpreting Scripture and the comments on "literal" vs. "figurative" interpretations, we acknowledge this is a serious and important subject. Our approach to Scripture seeks to understand the words in their original contexts and settings, and that includes taking genres of the sacred writings into consideration. With your Pentecostal training, you are apparently expressing yourself as a millennialist or dispensationalist, and you are apparently scoffing at amillennialism (or realized millennialism). We invite you to read our writings on this topic and make at least a civil and patient attempt to understand what we believe and why -- and not to be so quick to assume we ignore or despise any portion of Scripture."
Here's a start, 4 articles on the topic of the Rapture and the dangers of believing in it:
http://www.wlsessays.net/subject/R/Rapture
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/13/08 01:09 PM
A high school paper on the subject is included in your articles...
We differ.
I dont believe for a moment we are in the millenium. Because certain scriptures state certain things must happen before this time. And they havent yet happened.
We agree to disagree.
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 11/13/08 04:42 PM
Posted By: SenorElMouse
Re: Christ's return - 11/13/08 07:45 PM
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/14/08 12:11 AM
"We agree to disagree"....that's unbiblical
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/14/08 12:11 AM
I dont believe for a moment we are in the millenium. Because certain scriptures state certain things must happen before this time. And they havent yet happened.
And they are?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/14/08 02:49 AM
The rebuilding of Babylon for one. it cant be destroyed AGAIN if it doesnt exist.
The scripture in Daniel states that there will be "nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famine and pestilences and earthquakes like never before. This did not happen until WWI -study actual historical events and you will this is straight up the sign Daniel spoke of--- except this is one of the first signs of "the end of times". According to Daniel. Chronologically the Millennium and second coming of Christ and what we believe is the rapture ,or catching away of the church cant happen until these events. SO we could not be in the Millennial reign of Christ prior to these events. But you adhere to the position of the reign of Christ since the Beginning of the church in the upper room.
SO, we agree to disagree. We hold different positions and I can back it up with scriptures.
IN fact pretrib - millennial kingdom theology actually goes back to about 500 AD. Not just last 100 years or so. Ancient writings prove this. I dont have them in my head now , but could look them up. The point though is I can continue to state and restate what I believe and support it with scripture but you will continue to contradict me and say I am wrong. SO we agree to disagree, at least I do.
We disagree on many doctrinal things, whether it is biblical or not.
I am not bickering or really even questioning your doctrine. We worship and express differently. THe Bible says to worship in song, dance and in the spirit. Sometimes we do. You dont(dance and "spirit"). That is okay. But I am scriptural. The bible says lift holy hands unto the Lord. I do , you dont. THat is okay but I am scriptural.
Tha Bible says
ROMANS 8:26-29
Likewise the Holy Spirit also helps our infirmities:
For we know not what we should pray for as we ought:
But the Holy Spirit Himself makes intercession for us
with groanings which cannot be uttered. And God that
searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the
Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit makes intercession
for the saints according to the will of God.
Any scholar would admit, this is praying in tongues - our heavenly prayer language.
I pray in tongues when I am at a loss for words or just dont know how to intercede for someone. It is Biblical.
Need I go on.
We are both God's children and will see Jesus one day together. But we disagree on some doctrinal issues.
For me it is okay.
One thing I love about you Echo. Your zeal for Jesus Christ and God's grace.
Selah.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/15/08 06:49 AM
could you give scripture references to the events that you feel are supposed to happen BEFORE the 1000 years? I don't recall any scriptures saying these things had to happen before the 1000 years.
Thanks
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/16/08 01:04 AM
NO I cant, cuz I really dont have the time to teach in depth on this subject. There are many resources on end time studies. They are not blasphemy.
What is needed is an understanding of scripture from Genesis to Revelation and how some scriptures reveal truth about other scripture.
In short:
Babylon must be rebuilt before the coming of the Lord because -
Isaiah 13 and 14 and Jeremiah 50 and 51 describe the destruction of Babylon at "the day of the Lord"(a future event). using the Hebraic law of double reference, which means when in scripture and event is stated twice consecutively, the event happens twice. (see Isaiah 21:9,Rev 14:8, Rev 18:2)
Babylon was destroyed the first time in 17th year if Israel's captivity. It hasnt happened again and cant happen again until it is REBUILT.
It must be rebuilt and destroyed because: according to Jeremiah 51:26 - the ruins will not be used to rebuild any other building in any other city. And they have been used in other buildings up to now. and scripture is inerrant and cant lie. So it has to be rebuilt , destroyed and no other cities shall use it's stones to rebuild.
The prophecies of Jeremiah and Isaiah indicate that Bablyon will suddenly and totally be obliterated. (Jer.51:8) (Isaiah 13:19)
The first Babylon declined gradually over hundreds of years - not suddenly. IN order to be obliterated it must be REBUILT first.
isaiah 13:20 says the ruins of Babylon shall never be inhabited. t has been inhabited for many years up into the 1100's under the Name of Hillah as having 10,000 inhabitants.
If it is going to be desolate and no inhabitants live there, it must be REBUILT and then destroyed.
And so on.
Saddam Hussein and now his successor have been and are planning to rebuild Babylon. Iraq is where Babylon used to be. Saddam Hussein desired to be Nebuchadnezzar yet again, only greater. He even stated it.
Without actually studying prophecy and trying to uncover the truth of it, it is very difficult to gain understanding. I believe the Lord wanted it that way so we would seek Him and his truths, and so non believers would not understand.
Posted By: embie
Re: Christ's return - 11/16/08 03:37 PM
I hope Christ returns before Nabster has to do all that digging.
I saw Beth Moore last month and she gave me a word (or two...). She said "Don't die in your addiction, the time is now..."
I'm hoping she was prophesying that Christ's return was imminent.
I have decided to act on those words and I'm starting by speaking them out loud every day.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/16/08 09:36 PM
I am not asking for in depth research. I am simply saying that nothing in scripture that I know of says all these things have to happen before the 1000 years begin. I believe we are in the 1000 year reign now and so if some of these things havn't happened yet, that's fine because the scripture doesn't teach that they have to happen before the 1000 years begin.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/17/08 02:46 PM
all you need is one Echo. Babylon must be rebuilt in order for scripture to remain true and accurate. and it has not been rebuilt. Before Christ reigns a thousand years it must be rebuilt.
It also said the nation of Israel would be regathered before the end of days...1948 my friend. Regathered from the North south east and west. Ezekiel 37 I think.It also says Gog and Magog (Russia) will attack Israel and be mightily defeated by God through hailstones, fire, floods and pestilence. Ezekiel 38-39. It also says That the generation that sees these things will not pass away before the coming of the Lord.
It wasnt his disciples or the new church 2000+ years ago.
It could be the generation who saw world war 1 - still some time. It could be the generation who saw Israel become a nation again -1948- or it could even be the generation who saw the 6 day war 1967. Either way it wasnt the AD30 church from Biblical times. And the reign of Christ must follow these things.
28% of scripture deals with prophecy - Of Christ's first coming and of Christ's,second coming and of the things to comeat the "end of days". 28%. That is a lot of scripture about future events. All of it accurate or none of it accurate. It has to be that way. And all of it is accurate.
For instance - Ezekiel predicts Israel will "burn the weapons of Gog for 7 years, there are so many... what was he thinking? How can one burn metal weapons and such - Must be figurative and not literal right ?
Wrong. Dutch invented for building material and for use as alternative fuel to coal isa material known as Lignostone.
Used for large cogs in machinery - the size of trucks mind you.
It is multiple fine layers of Beechwood, resins and material then placed under extreme preseeure and steam - hard as rocks...
Guess what Russia is now using this material to make WEAPONS. They are undetectable by radar because they are not metallic...
Weapons. Ezekiel was right. God is always right and prophecy will be fulfilled.
http://www.spreadinglight.com/prophecy/gog.html
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 11/17/08 08:23 PM
The establishment of Israel does not constitute a "gathering of Israel"
Israel was to be gathered by the Messiah and his emissaries not the UN. Many, many, many orthodox and hasidic Jews opposed the establishment of Israel for that very reason.
Moreover, to gather Israel, God cannot merely gather the Jews or "tribe of Judah" all twelve would need to be gathered.
Posted By: Allen
Re: Christ's return - 11/17/08 11:15 PM
Israel was to be gathered by the Messiah and his emissaries not the UN.
What does Obama have to do with this discussion?
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/18/08 04:57 AM
Would it be possible for you to give some scripture references Nabster? I would like to look it all up.
Joel, could you expand on your thoughts there?
Posted By: embie
Re: Christ's return - 11/18/08 11:05 AM
Allen, our attempt to add a little comic relief has not worked...
Fight nice people.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/18/08 02:13 PM
Echo -
Seek and ye shall find.
There are ample online studies of endtime prophecies and such.
Posted By: Allen
Re: Christ's return - 11/18/08 02:41 PM
I don't think it's a bad thing to discuss them here (iron sharpens iron and all), just if we don't know, answer as such. Now if we're keeping the conversation going just to split hairs, then... I never understood the urge to to tear down another Christian's beliefs if, in the grand scheme of things, we're just splitting hairs on the same side of a subject. Truth is, we won't know all the answers until they are made clear to us, could be in Heaven, could be in Christ's return. Our time might be spent better feeding the hungry, adopting a child, sharing the love of Jesus.
Until then, lighten up on the "gotcha" religion
Carry on...
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 11/18/08 03:48 PM
Israel biblically speaking refers to the lost 10 tribes and the two that weren't lost.
The division of the house of Israel into two kingdoms at approximately 925 B.C. had been prophesied by Ahijah (1 Kgs. 11: 31-35). The immediate cause was a revolt of the people against the heavy taxes levied by Solomon and his son Rehoboam. Ten tribes formed the northern kingdom, with headquarters at Shechem in Samaria. They were known as Israel, or the northern kingdom, or Ephraim, since Ephraim was the dominant group among them. Their first king was Jeroboam, an Ephraimite; he was followed later by such kings as Omri and Ahab (who ruled with his Phoenician wife Jezebel).
The southern kingdom, consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, was headquartered at Jerusalem.
The northern kingdom soon went into apostasy and adopted many practices of Baalism, notwithstanding the ministries of such great prophets as Elijah and Amos. After a history of over 200 years and a series of 19 kings, the kingdom was captured by the Assyrians and the people carried away captive into Assyria. They have therefore become known as the “lost ten tribes.”
Since their captivity they have never yet returned to their homeland, but extensive promises and prophecies speak of the time when they of the “north countries” shall return when they are ready to obey the gospel. The gathering of the lost tribes is to be a more spectacular event than the children of Israel coming out of Egypt in Moses’ day.
So the establishment of the nation-state Israel and the adoption of it as a Jewish Homeland (tribe of Judah, which was never lost) cannot possibly be a biblical fulfillment of the restoration of Israel for Israel's 10 tribes still remain lost.
As for Obama, he's not the Messiah Mormon's believe in.. Is that what you guys have been trying to tell me when you say we believe in a different Jesus? Because if Obama is your Jesus, then by all means, we aren't Christian
Posted By: embie
Re: Christ's return - 11/18/08 06:10 PM
Good one Joel!
Posted By: David
Re: Christ's return - 11/18/08 08:01 PM
As for Obama, he's not the Messiah Mormon's believe in..
Verily he doth speaketh the truth, His Name is Romney.
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 11/18/08 10:24 PM
oooh, burn.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/19/08 05:38 AM
Joel,
Do you believe in a 1000 year(literal) period of peace on earth as well?
Nabster,
I can see you have my work cut out for me. Can you give me a link to what you believe then?
Where does the Bible state that ALL these things must happen BEFORE the 1000 years even begin? Just give me the verses for that. As far as I can tell, the Bible teaches that these things will happen before the judgment, not the 1000 years.
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 11/19/08 03:21 PM
yup
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/20/08 03:39 PM
UHHHHHM FROM MY POST 1 PAGE BACK...YOU OBVIOUSLY DID NOT READ THEM.
The Millennial Reign of Christ
The second coming of Christ includes the rapture of the saints, which is our blessed hope, followed by the visible return of Christ with His saints to reign on earth for one thousand years.
* Zechariah 14:5 [KJV/NIV]
* Matthew 24:27 [KJV/NIV]
* Matthew 24:30 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 1:7 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 19:11-14 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 20:1-6 [KJV/NIV]
This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel,
* Ezekiel 37:21,22 [KJV/NIV]
* Zephaniah 3:19,20 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 11:26,27 [KJV/NIV]
and the establishment of universal peace.
* Isaiah 11:6-9 [KJV/NIV]
* Psalms 72:3-8 [KJV/NIV]
* Micah 4:3,4 [KJV/NIV]
also from AG site. Good reading and not too long either - all supported with accurate interpretation of the scripture.
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4182_rapture.pdfGod speed Echo. (and others who are curious)
Well, you knew I couldn't help it:
Thoughts on the second coming of Christ...
Are we done once it happens? WE NEVER BEGAN
What happens afterward? NOTHING, NADA...IT'S LIKE WE WERE NEVER HERE...AND WHO SAYS WE DESERVE ANYTHING MORE?
What exactly are we waiting for? VOID
Why are we here? TO DREAD DEATH FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON...I RECKON OUR LIVES MEAN NOTHING IN THE "LONG" RUN...BUT I FEAR I'M RIGHT, AND CONTRADICT MYSELF...PERHAPS THAT FEAR AND CONTRADICTION IS WHY I'M HERE...
Where are we going? "WE"? IF YOU THINK A COLLECTIVE "WE" ARE GOING ANYWHERE YOU'RE MISTAKEN...I KNOW I'M GOING TO NOTHINGNESS...WHERE YOU GO IS YOUR CHOICE...BUT "WE" ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE TOGETHER.
Sorry for the ALL CAPS...It was just so you could see my answers. Questions like these facinate me because they mean absolutely nothing when it comes to our short little lives and our measly input and our pathetic existance...we try to delve into the inner/deeper workings of this world and for what? We live, we die...we may serve, we may not...many are evil and good, many die young, many should die young but don't, the innocent are slaughtered, the guilty spared, the evil rule, the sodding masses plod on in empty hopelessness, grimly clinging to lives that have absolutely no reason for being except to suffer until death...I ask, why do so many bother? What trait in the human genome condems so many to cling to so little for no reason but to continue to suffer?
Granted, some have made inputs to this world that have effects...but they are few and far between and for the most part those effects are evil in nature. The vast majority of the world lives in poverty and squalor, and condemns their line to that same squalor...ahhhh, the cruel irony of nature and the perpetuation of the species. When one thinks of 100, 500, or 1000 years from now, absolutely NOTHING you, me, or ANYONE else (Obama included) will do in this world will make a bit of difference...this assumes the world will still be inhabited that many years from now...so I say live your life as a good person (or bad)...serve, suffer, help, hope, be happy or sad, hate, love, want, yearn, need, cry, smile or sin, then die...but just before dying...if you can...simply accept that it all didn't mean a thing...and in that final thought, take comfort...because if, in that moment, you can accept that...you will truly be enlightened...(of course, I could be wrong
...indeed, having traveled to many places in the world where the hope of a better life is nothing but a cruel fantasy, where the clothes on ones back, a tarp, and perhaps a bowl for water and cooking (assuming one has food that day) are all that one possesses...the children still play and smile, and thus give perhaps the only purpose to the parents' lives...and it always brings a smile to my face, to see dirty, often naked children playing in mud or stagnent water...and I wonder why I smile at such obvious poverty, and ponder that the utter gutter of humanity can be happy and realize...perhaps that is the true meaning of life...that one can find happiness where only hopelessness exists...
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/21/08 05:22 AM
Hey DA! long time no talk to! How's it goin?
AND WHO SAYS WE DESERVE ANYTHING MORE
The whole point of being a Christian is a realization that we don't deserve anything at all! But God, in his great love for us chose to give it all to us anyways! Free forgiveness for all of our sins, free eternal life and free perfection. Jesus suffered and died so that we could have freedom!
The world is wicked for a reason. The world proves that there is good and there is evil. If God didn't exist, there wouldn't be such a thing as good and evil. Think about it.
Sorry for the ALL CAPS...It was just so you could see my answers. Questions like these facinate me because they mean absolutely nothing when it comes to our short little lives and our measly input and our pathetic existance...we try to delve into the inner/deeper workings of this world and for what? We live, we die...we may serve, we may not...many are evil and good, many die young, many should die young but don't, the innocent are slaughtered, the guilty spared, the evil rule, the sodding masses plod on in empty lives grimly clinging to lives that have absolutely no reason for being except to suffer until death...I ask, why do so many bother? What trait in the human genome condems so many to cling to so little for no reason but to continue to suffer?
Satan is the God of this world and that is why all of this happens. Mankind has in their human genome a nature that despises God.
"The world is wicked for a reason. The world proves that there is good and there is evil. If God didn't exist, there wouldn't be such a thing as good and evil. Think about it."
Why does there need to be "proof" for good and evil...why isn't the world simply good? Why did God make the world a contest between good and evil? Why not simply make it good?
And by the way...it's goin well thanks
I'm in Florida now...likely retire in Nov 09 but debating still...have a little girl born on 6 Oct and will be married (again) soon (I know...I'm a sinner
...
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/21/08 05:59 AM
Why does there need to be "proof" for good and evil...why isn't the world simply good? Why did God make the world a contest between good and evil? Why not simply make it good?
There doesn't need to be proof, but the fact that good and evil exist is proof. For if there were no God, there would be no definition of good or evil.
God created the world good and perfect and there was no death.
Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and ever since that day, the world was no longer good and perfect. All the evil, all the pain, all the suffering all the death...all a result of the fall into sin. So God didn't create a contest between good and evil. Man did. But God still loved us enough to save us from it all.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/21/08 06:00 AM
Congrats on the Baby girl!!!! And the marriage!!! Glad to see you back posting!
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/21/08 01:11 PM
Echo ???DId you say above Satan is the ruler of this world ???
Because if you did, you just contradicted your earlier statements about Christ reigning, or you have ....ch ch ch changed your doctrine.
Which is okay because you would be correct.
Neither Satan nor God nor Jesus is the ruler...evil is the ruler...but there are pockets where happiness and prosperity rule...let us not forget that the earth is 71% water...and all the fishes are happy...what do they know that we don't?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/22/08 03:29 AM
Satan is evil, and therefor in a wierd kinda way - you are correct. I think you are just being DA so kudos. But you sound like a lunatic !!!!!!!
i dont know that all the fish are happy, i mean look at the flounder, how can he be so ugly and still be happy...ugh we digress.
I'm uglier than the flounder, don't believe in God, and talk about happy fish...yet I'm very happy...hehe...indeed, we do digress
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/22/08 05:27 AM
Echo ???DId you say above Satan is the ruler of this world ???
Because if you did, you just contradicted your earlier statements about Christ reigning, or you have ....ch ch ch changed your doctrine.
Which is okay because you would be correct.
Yes Nabster, Satan is the ruler of this world.
2 Corinth 4:4 "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
1 John 5:19 "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."
But while we are in the world, we are not of the world:
John 18:36 "Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
John 17:14 "I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."
John 17:14 is also a great testimony that Christ's kingdom will not be a 1000 year reign on earth. Christ is not of the world and never will be.
So no, I havn't changed my doctrine. Christ reigns in our hearts by faith, we are not of this world.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/22/08 05:55 AM
Perhaps the fish trust in God more than man does:
Mathew 6:25-27 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life"
I am of this world...but I want to be a fish...not a flounder...maybe a whale...then all I have to worry about is the Japanese.
2 Corinth 4:4 "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
If god "blinds" the eyes of unbelievers...how can they see and believe in "god"?
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/23/08 12:48 AM
"The God of this age" is refering to Satan.
Posted By: Joel33
Re: Christ's return - 11/24/08 05:33 PM
and the Norwegians, they hunt whales too.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/26/08 05:02 AM
Nabster, What was the mistake the Jews made when they interpreted scriptures and thought Jesus wasn't the Messiah?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/26/08 01:23 PM
somehow i think you are going to tell me.
Your elders have spoken and you are about to enlighten the rest of us...
I can tell you the mistake that WELS is making. You think we are in the 1000 year reign of Christ. Which happens after the second coming, which happens after the blessed hope of return for his church. which happens after wars, rumors of wars, famine pestilence,and earthquakes, as well as the gathering of Israel, and the rebuilding of Babylon...
SCripture plainly says he will return in like manner in which left.
So , now what were you saying????
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/26/08 02:46 PM
You didn't answer the question. What is your view on my question?
What mistakes did the Jews make when they interpreted scriptures and thought Jesus wasn't the Messiah? The Jews had all the prophecy that pointed to the Messiah being born, living and dying for us on the cross. Instead of believing Jesus was the Messiah, they crucified him. What mistakes do you believe they made in interpreting scriptures?
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/27/08 02:54 PM
They did not have the Bible. They had old testament scriptures. First their eyes were blinded by God to not see Him.
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Second they refused to acknowledge truth, so they misinterpreted to fit their own ideas.
So, why dont you tell us what the Jews did...
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/28/08 01:45 AM
So, why dont you tell us what the Jews did...
The interpreted prophecy to mean that Jesus would reign on earth.
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/28/08 02:47 PM
I am not Jewish. You are inferring I/we have done the same thing.
DO you believe a new earth, as the Bible says, will become reality on earth after the 1000 years??? Or is the 1000 years just a figure of speech and it is an endless time? Do you believe the 144,000 witnesses are literal in number?
Do you believe Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days or figurative. Jews 40 years in desert or figurative? Dead 3 days and risen or just figurative? Rained 40 days and nights or just fiurative?
My point is God uses numbers and times as His imprint on truth. 40 is a time of testing in the Bible and it is literal. For instance.
Numerology in the Bible is fascinating and even so proves God exists as much as anything to those who dont believe.
God gave us insight into His methodology here.
1000 years in scripture when terms around it are literal means 1000 years, when terms around it are fiuragtive it is then figurative. IN context always.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/29/08 09:48 PM
I am not Jewish. You are inferring I/we have done the same thing.
Yes. That is what I am saying
Posted By: NABSTER
Re: Christ's return - 11/30/08 02:31 AM
answer my questions please. figurative or literal stated above.
Posted By: Echo
Re: Christ's return - 11/30/08 03:29 AM
DO you believe a new earth, as the Bible says, will become reality on earth after the 1000 years???
The new earth comes after the judgement.
Or is the 1000 years just a figure of speech and it is an endless time?
Symbolic. I did answer this already.
Do you believe the 144,000 witnesses are literal in number?
no
Do you believe Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days or figurative. Jews 40 years in desert or figurative? Dead 3 days and risen or just figurative? Rained 40 days and nights or just fiurative?
It depends on the context as you said.