What I adhere to and why.

The baptism of Christians in the Holy Spirit is accompanied by the initial physical sign of speaking in other tongues (unlearned languages) as the Spirit of God gives them audible expression. (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4,8; 2:4; 8:12-17; 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15:7-9; 1 Cor. 12:1-31)


The Millennial Reign of Christ

The second coming of Christ includes the rapture of the saints, which is our blessed hope, followed by the visible return of Christ with His saints to reign on earth for one thousand years.

* Zechariah 14:5 [KJV/NIV]
* Matthew 24:27 [KJV/NIV]
* Matthew 24:30 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 1:7 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 19:11-14 [KJV/NIV]
* Revelation 20:1-6 [KJV/NIV]

This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel,

* Ezekiel 37:21,22 [KJV/NIV]
* Zephaniah 3:19,20 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 11:26,27 [KJV/NIV]

and the establishment of universal peace.

* Isaiah 11:6-9 [KJV/NIV]
* Psalms 72:3-8 [KJV/NIV]
* Micah 4:3,4 [KJV/NIV]

By the way corporate worship to God should be freely expressed. Lifting our hands is a way to show our surrender to Christ, in reverence to HIm. We freely express ourselves in worship because it is liberating , fulfilling and quite frankly enjoyable. You get from it what you put into it. Fervent worship, brings fervent refreshing. We are not "waving our hands around to distract others". I imagine you would be distracted by more than one person praying for you aloud as well...you are unfamiliar with it. I will tell you this, I would want no other group praying for me in time of dire need or physical sickness than pentecoastals who love the Lord.
By the way do you call the elders of the church to lay hands on believers and pray for the sick? It is scriptural and most certainly appropriate. This is done corporately.
Do you or no?
And if you do, do they lay hands on folks and pray, or anoint with oil? It too is scriptural.
I know the answer, ...it is too controversial for yall and you don't. So be it. But it is scriptural, yet you have been taught not to do it. Because it isnt seeker friendly and others would find it odd.
We agree to disagree. We have our beliefs backed by scriptures. without reading anything into them. Literal is literal and figurative is figurative. We believe the whole b+Bible and what it clearly teaches. If you believe we are in the millennial reign until Christ comes, your WELS doctrine has serious misinterpretation.

Phil 1:3 "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

We already have peace.

I don't have the answer to this. Let me go and get the answer and I will let you know.

my point is you shuold know. It is SCRIPTURAL. But I understand as well. We are going to disagree unless you see differently. I am persuaded by scripture and personal experience that supports it.

I learned some interesting stuff. The way you worship and the way I worship are areas of adiaphora. (things neither commanded nor forbidden in scripture). Both are fine and acceptable ways to worship as long as we are acting in love, wisdom and with regards for the truth. Neither way of worship is a moral or doctrinal issue. I was told that arguing over such things is something I shouldn't be participating in.

We don't judge someone's heart in these matters including sincerity or fervency etc.


We do however judge on the basis of a Church's doctrine, confessed or demonstrated faithfulness to Scripture, and Christ-centeredness.

Quotes from WELS:

"The customs of laying on of hands for prayer or anointing the sick with oil are things done freely or not done as a child of God may desire. The text in its context (James 5:13-16) offers a precedent, but not a binding precept. The Greek word for "anoint" used here leads us to believe that the reference is to applying medicinal and soothing means, not to a ceremonial or ritualistic anointing (which would use another Greek word used elsewhere in the New Testament). While we are free to use olive oil, we are also free to use more modern medicines and remedy to reflect what is encouraged. And to use hands to express our intercessions and desire that God's healing power be channeled to the sick brother or sister is fine with us and hardly unheard of. But to assume that we are despising biblical commands or ignoring biblical counsel is inaccurate and, in this case, presumptuously and discourteously leveled as a charge of unfaithfulness."

"On the matter of interpreting Scripture and the comments on "literal" vs. "figurative" interpretations, we acknowledge this is a serious and important subject. Our approach to Scripture seeks to understand the words in their original contexts and settings, and that includes taking genres of the sacred writings into consideration. With your Pentecostal training, you are apparently expressing yourself as a millennialist or dispensationalist, and you are apparently scoffing at amillennialism (or realized millennialism). We invite you to read our writings on this topic and make at least a civil and patient attempt to understand what we believe and why -- and not to be so quick to assume we ignore or despise any portion of Scripture."

Here's a start, 4 articles on the topic of the Rapture and the dangers of believing in it:

http://www.wlsessays.net/subject/R/Rapture

A high school paper on the subject is included in your articles...
We differ.
I dont believe for a moment we are in the millenium. Because certain scriptures state certain things must happen before this time. And they havent yet happened.
We agree to disagree.

good luck with that.

Famous last words.

"We agree to disagree"....that's unbiblical

And they are?

The rebuilding of Babylon for one. it cant be destroyed AGAIN if it doesnt exist.
The scripture in Daniel states that there will be "nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famine and pestilences and earthquakes like never before. This did not happen until WWI -study actual historical events and you will this is straight up the sign Daniel spoke of--- except this is one of the first signs of "the end of times". According to Daniel. Chronologically the Millennium and second coming of Christ and what we believe is the rapture ,or catching away of the church cant happen until these events. SO we could not be in the Millennial reign of Christ prior to these events. But you adhere to the position of the reign of Christ since the Beginning of the church in the upper room.
SO, we agree to disagree. We hold different positions and I can back it up with scriptures.
IN fact pretrib - millennial kingdom theology actually goes back to about 500 AD. Not just last 100 years or so. Ancient writings prove this. I dont have them in my head now , but could look them up. The point though is I can continue to state and restate what I believe and support it with scripture but you will continue to contradict me and say I am wrong. SO we agree to disagree, at least I do.
We disagree on many doctrinal things, whether it is biblical or not.
I am not bickering or really even questioning your doctrine. We worship and express differently. THe Bible says to worship in song, dance and in the spirit. Sometimes we do. You dont(dance and "spirit"). That is okay. But I am scriptural. The bible says lift holy hands unto the Lord. I do , you dont. THat is okay but I am scriptural.
Tha Bible says
ROMANS 8:26-29

Likewise the Holy Spirit also helps our infirmities:
For we know not what we should pray for as we ought:
But the Holy Spirit Himself makes intercession for us
with groanings which cannot be uttered. And God that
searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the
Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit makes intercession
for the saints according to the will of God.

Any scholar would admit, this is praying in tongues - our heavenly prayer language.

I pray in tongues when I am at a loss for words or just dont know how to intercede for someone. It is Biblical.
Need I go on.
We are both God's children and will see Jesus one day together. But we disagree on some doctrinal issues.
For me it is okay.
One thing I love about you Echo. Your zeal for Jesus Christ and God's grace.
Selah.

could you give scripture references to the events that you feel are supposed to happen BEFORE the 1000 years? I don't recall any scriptures saying these things had to happen before the 1000 years.

Thanks

NO I cant, cuz I really dont have the time to teach in depth on this subject. There are many resources on end time studies. They are not blasphemy.
What is needed is an understanding of scripture from Genesis to Revelation and how some scriptures reveal truth about other scripture.

In short:
Babylon must be rebuilt before the coming of the Lord because -
Isaiah 13 and 14 and Jeremiah 50 and 51 describe the destruction of Babylon at "the day of the Lord"(a future event). using the Hebraic law of double reference, which means when in scripture and event is stated twice consecutively, the event happens twice. (see Isaiah 21:9,Rev 14:8, Rev 18:2)

Babylon was destroyed the first time in 17th year if Israel's captivity. It hasnt happened again and cant happen again until it is REBUILT.

It must be rebuilt and destroyed because: according to Jeremiah 51:26 - the ruins will not be used to rebuild any other building in any other city. And they have been used in other buildings up to now. and scripture is inerrant and cant lie. So it has to be rebuilt , destroyed and no other cities shall use it's stones to rebuild.
The prophecies of Jeremiah and Isaiah indicate that Bablyon will suddenly and totally be obliterated. (Jer.51:8) (Isaiah 13:19)
The first Babylon declined gradually over hundreds of years - not suddenly. IN order to be obliterated it must be REBUILT first.

isaiah 13:20 says the ruins of Babylon shall never be inhabited. t has been inhabited for many years up into the 1100's under the Name of Hillah as having 10,000 inhabitants.
If it is going to be desolate and no inhabitants live there, it must be REBUILT and then destroyed.
And so on.
Saddam Hussein and now his successor have been and are planning to rebuild Babylon. Iraq is where Babylon used to be. Saddam Hussein desired to be Nebuchadnezzar yet again, only greater. He even stated it.

Without actually studying prophecy and trying to uncover the truth of it, it is very difficult to gain understanding. I believe the Lord wanted it that way so we would seek Him and his truths, and so non believers would not understand.

I hope Christ returns before Nabster has to do all that digging.

I saw Beth Moore last month and she gave me a word (or two...). She said "Don't die in your addiction, the time is now..."

I'm hoping she was prophesying that Christ's return was imminent.

I have decided to act on those words and I'm starting by speaking them out loud every day.

I am not asking for in depth research. I am simply saying that nothing in scripture that I know of says all these things have to happen before the 1000 years begin. I believe we are in the 1000 year reign now and so if some of these things havn't happened yet, that's fine because the scripture doesn't teach that they have to happen before the 1000 years begin.

all you need is one Echo. Babylon must be rebuilt in order for scripture to remain true and accurate. and it has not been rebuilt. Before Christ reigns a thousand years it must be rebuilt.
It also said the nation of Israel would be regathered before the end of days...1948 my friend. Regathered from the North south east and west. Ezekiel 37 I think.It also says Gog and Magog (Russia) will attack Israel and be mightily defeated by God through hailstones, fire, floods and pestilence. Ezekiel 38-39. It also says That the generation that sees these things will not pass away before the coming of the Lord.
It wasnt his disciples or the new church 2000+ years ago.
It could be the generation who saw world war 1 - still some time. It could be the generation who saw Israel become a nation again -1948- or it could even be the generation who saw the 6 day war 1967. Either way it wasnt the AD30 church from Biblical times. And the reign of Christ must follow these things.
28% of scripture deals with prophecy - Of Christ's first coming and of Christ's,second coming and of the things to comeat the "end of days". 28%. That is a lot of scripture about future events. All of it accurate or none of it accurate. It has to be that way. And all of it is accurate.
For instance - Ezekiel predicts Israel will "burn the weapons of Gog for 7 years, there are so many... what was he thinking? How can one burn metal weapons and such - Must be figurative and not literal right ?
Wrong. Dutch invented for building material and for use as alternative fuel to coal isa material known as Lignostone.
Used for large cogs in machinery - the size of trucks mind you.
It is multiple fine layers of Beechwood, resins and material then placed under extreme preseeure and steam - hard as rocks...
Guess what Russia is now using this material to make WEAPONS. They are undetectable by radar because they are not metallic...
Weapons. Ezekiel was right. God is always right and prophecy will be fulfilled.
http://www.spreadinglight.com/prophecy/gog.html

The establishment of Israel does not constitute a "gathering of Israel"

Israel was to be gathered by the Messiah and his emissaries not the UN. Many, many, many orthodox and hasidic Jews opposed the establishment of Israel for that very reason.

Moreover, to gather Israel, God cannot merely gather the Jews or "tribe of Judah" all twelve would need to be gathered.

What does Obama have to do with this discussion?

Would it be possible for you to give some scripture references Nabster? I would like to look it all up.

Joel, could you expand on your thoughts there?