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Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61369 10/09/08 08:08 PM
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Joel33 Offline OP
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Pretty much embie.

You'd have to be really rotten to be considered a son of perdition and not recieve any glory.

There are three Kingdoms

The Celestial Kingdom - D&C 76:54-70
Quote
They are they who are the church of the bFirstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given aall thingsó
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of cGodó
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christís, and Christ is Godís.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.


The Terrestrial Kingdom - D&C 76:71-80

Quote
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without blaw;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the btestimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to bwrite while we were yet in the Spirit.


The Telestial Kingdom: D&C 76:81-89

Quote
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the atestimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who adeny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until theb last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.
89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;


Reference also 1 Cor 15:40-41

that is all


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61373 10/10/08 02:23 AM
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Echo Offline
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Echo???? what????
If Christ were reighning it would not be chaotic and full of filth. Can you use some scripture to show why you believe that???


Revelation 20:1-14

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."

The "angel" coming down out of heaven is Jesus who is often called: "the angel of the Lord" in the OT. Jesus came to destroy the devil's work (1 John 3:8)and he did that through the preaching of the gospel message.

The "chain" gives us a picture much like that of a beast or wild and Vicious dog who is alive and well because he is chained up. A vicious dog on a chain is still able to attack those who go within his reach and so also with Satan because the Bible says the devil is free to prowl around like a roaring lion looking for somebody to devour.(1 Peter 5:8) Yet he simply cannot harm those who are beyond his reach. Therefore the chain represents the original gospel. The chain(gospel)hinders the devils attempt to lead people astray into Hell. Those who believe in a restored gospel, a different gospel, or no gospel are those whom Satan can attack and harm or destroy.

The time Satan is "set free" represents "widespread" apostacy and unbelief in the gospel.

"1000": The number 10 in the Bible always represents "completeness" The cube of 1000 is 10
So 1000 represents a complete period of time and that time is the entire NT period. The Bible uses 1000 also in Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. Those passages speak of the timelessness of God. They very clearly show that when the Bible uses "1000 years" that number is most definately not to be taken literally as the view I am against in this thread supposes.

There are no passages in scripture that say the devil will be unable to prowl around devouring people prior to the judgement.

There will not be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as you are thinking because the bible clearly teaches his kingdom is NOT of this world. (John 18:36)

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Notice in the above passages that the Saints "came to life" and reigned with Christ for the 1000 years. And this "coming to life" is connected to the first resurrection.

The first ressurrection represents our physical death in which the soul goes to heaven. (these Saints died) The second ressurrection represents the time our bodies will be reunited with our souls on the last day at the judgment.

So those who were beheaded died and their souls went to heaven and they reigned with Christ from heaven for 1000 years. Those 1000 years not being literal nor were they reigning on earth. The passages clearly point out that the "souls" reigned with Christ. It doesn't say the body and soul reigned with Christ. If there were a literal reign of Christ on earth, clearly the believers who died would have a body and soul, not just a soul.

That would be my answer to your question.

Last edited by Echo; 10/10/08 02:25 AM.

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Re: Christ's return [Re: Echo] #61375 10/10/08 04:30 AM
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Allen Offline
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Originally Posted by Echo

There will not be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as you are thinking because the bible clearly teaches his kingdom is NOT of this world. (John 18:36)


"Is" can be a LOT different from "will be". IOW, I don't think "is" rules out change.

Joel, you started off pretty good then lost me quickly as you wound down to the end smile


- Allen [Linked Image]
- I don't need things, I need people - mb © 2002
Re: Christ's return [Re: Allen] #61378 10/10/08 02:31 PM
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Revelation 20:1-14

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."

echo, are you saying Satan is not deceiving nations anymore and Christ is currently reigning?

And we are in the midst ofa "1000 year reign on earth"?


Psalm 91
Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61380 10/10/08 04:17 PM
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Echo Offline
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echo, are you saying Satan is not deceiving nations anymore and Christ is currently reigning?



We have the Gospel of God's grace and that keeps the nations from being decieved. Yes Christ reign's right now through the gospel.

Quote
And we are in the midst ofa "1000 year reign on earth"?
Yes, but not a literal 1000 years, 1000 is symbolic for the entire NT period.


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Re: Christ's return [Re: Echo] #61386 10/12/08 12:26 AM
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this world does not sound smell or feel or look like or anything like Christ's reign. If it is He is a weak Christ.

You are saying New Testament till now and moving forward is the reign Christ as well???
Ya know , you can look around and tell Satan is not bound. He is everywhere on this earth , wreaking havoc. How can you reason NOw is Christs reign?


Psalm 91
Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61388 10/12/08 03:27 AM
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Echo Offline
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Quote
this world does not sound smell or feel or look like or anything like Christ's reign. If it is He is a weak Christ.
Was Christ weak when he was despised, beaten, rejected, crucified and put to death?

Quote
You are saying New Testament till now and moving forward is the reign Christ as well???
Yes, right up until the end of the world.

Quote
Ya know , you can look around and tell Satan is not bound. He is everywhere on this earth , wreaking havoc. How can you reason NOw is Christs reign?
Christ reigns in our hearts through the gospel.

Jesus didn't say: "I WILL overcome the world". He said: "take heart, I HAVE overcome the world"


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Re: Christ's return [Re: Echo] #61398 10/14/08 12:15 AM
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DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE "RAPTURE" AS IN 1 THESS 4:16 ?
BECAUSE Christ's COMING IS AFTER THIS AND SO IS THE 1000 YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST. ACCORDING TO REVELATION 20 THE 1000 YEAR PERIODS ARE LITERAL. arg , darn caps....
Not figurative.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

First the rapture of the church , next the 7 tear tribulation, next the second coming of Christ with His Bride (the church) and then we reign together a 1000 years.


Psalm 91
Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61399 10/14/08 12:25 AM
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Also Christ certainly was not weak during crucifixion, but how that relates stumps me. Christ did not reign during His time on Earth. The Church began and Gods plan went forth, but it was far from reigning.

Secondly, you said "right up until the end of the world" - exactly when is that according to scripture.

Christ reigns in hearts , yes. But this is taking literal and making it figurative. Everything the Bible proclaims is His coming a second time to set up HIs Reign on Earth. IN power and majesty. To say His reign is taking place anbd has been since the NT church is somewhat ----uhhh---nuts? Was he reigning in the dark ages? was he reigning during the holocaust of His people, the jews? was he reigning opver EARTH when entire populations of people had never heard of Him? The answer is no. Reigning in our hearts yes, BUt our hearts and the Earth are never tied together in scripture.
Does WELS believe or adhere to the doctrine of the Blessed Hope? Christ coming for His church and taking us from this earth before He comes again?


Psalm 91
Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61400 10/14/08 12:46 AM
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JOhn 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

This is not about reigning Echo. It is about the world beating down on Christians, but in His resurrection he overcame - it is done.
Right now Satan is the ruler of this world, the Bible proclaims it. We as Christians are in opposition to it. "Be in the world but not of it."
When the Devil offered to give Christ all the cities of the world, he could not have done this unless he owned them and Christ did not refute his ownership either.

2 corinthians 4 3-4
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Hello?
What say ye to this?
Let me just say , i would love to believe we are in the reign of Christ but we just cannot be at this point in History. It inst Biblical accurate to say so.


Psalm 91
Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61403 10/14/08 12:47 PM
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Telestial? man that hurts when you get kicked there...just a little comic relief smile


Make disciples of all nations...
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Re: Christ's return [Re: Jusselin] #61406 10/15/08 02:07 PM
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echo, are you checking what the WELS would say ??? where did you go. I am genuinely interested in how your denomination has arrived at this doctrineing Nab


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Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61408 10/15/08 03:04 PM
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no body thought the telestial joke was funny...i thought it was just a little funny


Make disciples of all nations...
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Re: Christ's return [Re: Jusselin] #61412 10/15/08 05:34 PM
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Joel33 Offline OP
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Now that I've responded, she'll see the thread. maybe you'll get an answer.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Christ's return [Re: Joel33] #61419 10/15/08 08:04 PM
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embie Offline
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Juss, I laughed (alot) at your joke... laugh

(maybe that's why Allen questions my Christianity... ROFL! tongue )

hoppy


When I don't measure up to much in this life, I'm a treasure in the arms of Christ.
Re: Christ's return [Re: embie] #61420 10/15/08 08:07 PM
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Joel, I have another question for you. Once your kingdom has been determined, is that it or can you eventually get to a higher level?



When I don't measure up to much in this life, I'm a treasure in the arms of Christ.
Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61425 10/16/08 01:28 AM
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Nabster, first, what is your definition of the rapture?


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Re: Christ's return [Re: Echo] #61426 10/16/08 04:30 AM
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Come on echo -
Thessalonians verses stated above. We shall all be "caught up in the sky" - you know where I stand.
What about 2 corinthians 4: 3-4?


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Re: Christ's return [Re: NABSTER] #61429 10/16/08 02:50 PM
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Joel33 Offline OP
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There is progression within the glory of the each Kingdom, but there is not progression from glory to glory.

Judgment is final.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Christ's return [Re: Joel33] #61433 10/17/08 03:37 AM
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Echo Offline
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Nabster

Let's slow down. Otherwise we are giving each other too much info at once and nothing has a chance to sink in.

Quote
DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE "RAPTURE" AS IN 1 THESS 4:16 ?
I believe this verse is refering to the rapture that happens at the end of the world.

What do you believe happens after the literal 1000 years has ended and the tribulation that follows the 1000 years?

Last edited by Echo; 10/17/08 06:14 AM.

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