Hi Allen,

I don't argue, its not in my nature. I am a quiet, softspoken and shy person by nature. I just speak the truth as the Bible has taught me.
And out of concern for Joel, if we are going to get him into heaven, we got to help him live up to his religion. He believes he must CONTINUALLY obey the commandments in order to recieve the crown of life. Lets hold him to his beliefs. Lets expect that from him. Otherwise he is not putting his faith into action.
He is not doing as James says: "I will show you my faith by what I do" We need to help him in this. Trust me. Joel's worth it!

I'm glad you're concerned for me and my salvation. I don't appreciate the patronizing tone of your posts. And you've neglected to note LDS teachings on repentence. Perfection is not required in my faith, rather faith, humility and repentence are more important. I put my faith into action every day and find it ironic that a person who has never met me, or had a chance to observe my faith in action through my good works has such confidence in assessing the state of my salvation.

So I guess since you freely admit your unworthiness you are free to criticize me and anyone else in a very unChristlike and condescending manner. I was simply making an observation. The Jews are historically and Biblically speaking, not wrong.

It's also interesting that what looks like a speck in your eye from your perspective looks like a plank to everyone else.

Nonetheless - this thread is not about my salvation, or LDS doctrine. In fact, I haven't talked about either. Rather, I was curious to know what others believe about the gathering of Israel as prophesied in the OT.

Echo believes it to be Figurative. That's enough out of her. Anyone else...

Allen, not aware of any DNA testing, just the historical record that Jews, ie. the tribe of Judah have a continual historical record from Biblical times to now. The lost 10 tribes, disappearance is historically recorded as the Northern Kingdom was carried away in 721/722 BC.

I'm only aware of linguistic evidence of their dispersion in the European nations.

Thor Heyerdahl, who I'm rather fond of, at the time of his death was working on an archeological project regarding the origin of NOrse Gods like Odin and Thor. He'd found some sort of archeological site in the Middle east which he believed was where Odin and Thor - the real people not the false Norse Gods - came from. He further theorized that Odin and Thor where part of the lost 10 tribes and that they eventually migrated to Northern Europe where their exploits were exagerated into Myth and Legend and they became known as gods.

What's interesting about his project is that many of the prophecies about the return of the 10 tribes include verbiage about them coming down out of the "Northern Countries" which I believe Norway, Sweden and Finland would qualify as.

Just interesting theories with some vaguely corroberating archeological facts. Not religious beliefs so try not to get all worked up Echo.

Judge my heart in the kindest possible way as scripture teaches and you will see that I am not using a patronizing tone. I have only echoed Jesus.



LDS repentance requires overcoming the sin in order to be forgiven by God. If you have to overcome sin first in order to be forgiven, that means that you must "continually obey the commandments" to be assured you are forgiven for all your sins. Think about it, ponder those thoughts over in your mind.

But we must die assured that all our sins are forgiven if we are to enter eternal life. If you must first overcome your sin, you can never have the assurance that is required to enter eternal life unless you continually obey the commandments.

The words we use when speaking to others, the way we treat others by our words are good works just as any other good work.

Mathew 12:36 "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken."


Mathew 12:37 "For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned"

Mathew 15:18 "But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean"

I have observed your faith in action and you fail to show me your faith by what you do.



It is not unchristlike and condescending to Mirror Christ. Think about why Christ did what he did to the pharisees and then assume that Is what I am doing also. It might save your soul.
I do freely admit my unworthiness because anything short of perfection makes me unworthy, but that doesn't mean I feel free to sin and treat people the way you do. I have been freed from sin, I am forgiven! That assurance drives me to treat you with love and respect, to tell you the truth even if it hurts you for a short while. Why? Because I want you to have the assurance all your sins are forgiven.

I respect you and your opinion even though I disagree with you. Why didn't you say it this way in the first place instead of looking down your pharisaical nose? If you want to remove the plank in your eye, that means you must stop judging peoples hearts and motives in an unkind way. Because every judgment of motives you make in this way is a judgement of the plank in your own eye.
i.e. You judge me as showing no respect and in saying so, you show you have no respect for me. You judge me as being condescending and in saying so, you are condescending me. Don't you see?

only if they judge my motives and heart in a negative way as you have, or if they listen to you and your disprespectful responses and you lead them into the same sin you have just committed by judging my heart in a negative way.

Again, your contempt for people shines through. That doesn't mirror Jesus at all.

Joel, you are a white washed tomb, the things that come out of your mouth make you unclean.

Please take my words in the kindest possible way. They are intended to get you to see how unworthy you are. Romans 3:20 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

Because until you see that, you will be blinded to our gospel and you won't be able to "hear" it and be saved.
Romans 3:21-24 & 28 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

Your heart is unclean Joel. It shines through in what you say almost all the time. You can beat yourself to a pulp and repent all you want but your never going to change, your heart isn't going to change. You have a heart of stone! You need a new heart! Your struggling with loving those who love you and failing! But when God gives you a new heart, you will be able to love those who even hate you! When your ready for a new heart, let me know! I would be truly glad to help you with that cause I want to meet up with you in heaven some day and be freinds.

"I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh" Eze 11:19

Is Echo's lack of self-awareness as entertaining to anyone else as it is to me?

I don't dislike you, I simply find that you are unintentionally very entertaining in your responses.

Well then rather than be entertained by what I say and inviting others to be as disrespectful as you are, say something that shows that you respect me and want to help me overcome my blindness. You know, show me what I did wrong and then show me how I might have done things differently, and do all of that respectfully. That would be the christlike thing to do.


Looking forward to your help.

Echo,

We've had a long private conversation wherein at the end, we both agreed that you weren't ever going to understand the nuances of the LDS faith and I wasn't ever going to understand you.

I thought we had a truce.

Then a few days back some folks mentioned that they missed thought provoking threads that required thinking and using their intellect. So I thought I'd start a couple of threads in an attempt to generate discussion.

You rapidly jumped in and hijacked the thread into your personal mission to make sure that I am saved - and I already am - that's the funny part.

If you'd like to try again to save me, feel free to PM me. I don't think anyone else is interested in following our conversation.

Now perhaps they are interested in learning more about or discussing the doctrines of the lost tribes, but after your little diatribe. I think this thread will die as well. As soon as I can think of a new topic to stimulate intellectual discussion, I'll post it. Please try not to hijack it next time.

Thanks.

Joel, it all began with your disprespectful comments. The situation continues because of your disrepectful comments. The thread was going fine until then. Keep the focus on the topic instead of on putting people down and you'll do fine.

Now please carry on with the topic.
Thank you.

Carry on with the topic.