It is interesting to me that one of the major themes of the Old Testament is the the trials and travails of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Perhaps, in addition to prophecies about the Messiah, the Old Testament is replete with prophecy after prophecy about the gathering of the lost Ten Tribes.

What I find odd, is that discussion about or doctrine on the lost tribes seems to be largely absent from modern Christianity. This is odd because, as mentioned it is one of the primary themes of the OT and as far as I know, the ten tribes have not been found.

I would be interested to learn what other Christian Religions believe on this topic - or if they have any doctrine at all.

I don't think we have any doctrine on it. Had the New Testament not happened... well, I don't think we'd have dotrine on it then either since we'd have to be Jewish for it to mean much.

Pastors preach on many Old Testament themes, but almost always in how it pointed to New Testament teachings.

This is what puzzles me.

I'm not joking when I state that the prophecies of the gathering of lost Israel are of great importance in the OT. So it's puzzling why its not addressed at all by Modern Christian Religion - Oddly, I don't even believe it's addressed by Judaism either.

How is it that probably one of the most prominent themes of the OT - which we as Christians also accept as true (with the caveat that the Law of Moses has been fulfilled) - don't even think about it. It's not part of the Law of Moses, but rather a separate issue.

Just for a little more background, the 10 lost tribes made up the Northern Kingdom of Israel and were conquered and lost in about 721 BC when they were taken away into the "Northern Countries" I've heard studies regarding trace influences of Hebrew found in many European languages as evidence of some sort of Northerly migration.

At any rate, the Lord also promises that they will be gathered and restored to the lands of their inheritance and to the true gospel. Here's some references so you can familiarize yourselves...

Isaiah 5:26

Isaiah 54:7

Ezekiel 28:25

Isaiah 43:6

Jeremiah 3:18

My personal fave: Jermiah 16:14-16

There's other references, but those should suffice.

Why does anyone think it's now missing? These prophecies are talking about what God will do in the "last days" or in our time. So even though they may not have reference to the more common or mainstream NT teachings that our pastors and preachers spend their time on, we ought to be seeing it happen.

When the Bible speaks about the gathering of Isreal it is symbolism of God gathering those whom would hear the gospel and believe.

The reference to the 12 tribes of Isreal in Revelation 7:4-8 is symbolic of all true believers.

The number "12" is symbolic of the church.
12 squared in 144
One thousand is 10 cubed and is the number representing "completeness"

Thus 12 tribes, of 12,000 totalling 144,000

Meaning the complete number of believers. All symbolism and not literal.


God Bless you
Echo

It's interesting you would say that, but not consistent with the biblical record.

the 12 tribes in the OT were not symbolic. they were real.

the 10 tribes that were lost were not symbolic. They were real and the historical record shows that they were actually lost.

The promises in the OT that they would be found/gathered/restored were also not symbolic, but real.

And revelations 7 while containing references to the twelve tribes, does not contain any reference to their gathering. I think you and I may be talking about two different things.

Anyway, what does WELS teach regarding the lost tribes.

What does AOG teach?

What do you believe Nabster? AnangelsARMS, Steve? Anyone?

Yes. The 10 tribes were lost and it was real. But they also are a symbol of all the lost. And those lost are real too.
The OT is both revealed and hidden information.

Here is what the WELS believe about the 10 tribes:





"gather"(gathering) is in your bible reference to Isaiah above.

Everything you've cited from WELS is simply about the dispersion and loss of the 10 tribes. Not so much beliefs but biblical fact.

What is your belief about the literal gathering of the 10 tribes, as prophesied and promised in the OT.

God promises Israel that he will gather them, literally, is he in the process of fulfilling that promise?

The literal dispersion of the 10 tribes is literal but it also is symbolic of each and every one of us. We all have turned away from God:

Romans 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

The literal gathering is this:

Jesus came into the world, lived under the law to redeem us from the law. He nailed the law, including the higher law as you would refer to it, to the cross. The law, including the higher law, was apposed to us (it convinces us that we have become worthless and that none of us does good, not one. It convinces us that we can not ever be worthy)But that law was ended (nailed to the cross) Now Jesus has reconciled us to God forever.
That is the literal gathering.

It fits perfectly with all the passages you cited above. This
gathering is continuing today whereever the gospel is preached and heard.

God Bless you
Echo

So according to you and WELS, there is to be no literal gathering of the actual descendents of the lost tribes of Israel?

Well all the actual descendants of the lost tribes who hear the gospel and believe it are literally gathered. Those who reject the messages are literally not. God declared an oath that those who reject his message shall NEVER enter his rest.

Hebrews 4:1-3 "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.[a] Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'

Fair enough.

Anyone Else?

I think we believe they 'returned' May 14, 1948, eh? I know a few preachers who fancied themselves as a 'last days prophet' put a lot of thought into Jesus returning 40 years after that date.

In doing some reading, they have been returning for centuries:

"Beginning in the 12th century, Catholic persecution of Jews led to a steady stream leaving Europe to settle in the Holy Land, increasing in numbers after Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492. During the 16th century large communities struck roots in the Four Holy Cities, and in the second half of the 18th century, entire Hasidic communities from eastern Europe settled in the Holy Land.

The first large wave of modern immigration, known as the First Aliyah ( began in 1881, as Jews fled pogroms in Eastern Europe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

INteresting. Historically speaking, the Jews who have returned to the Holy land since 1948, strictly speaking are descendents of Judah and therefore of that tribe, not the lost ten tribes. the Ten tribes that were lost comprised the northern Kingdom, the southern Kingdom was comprised of Judah and Benjamin and has never been lost to history.

What's also interesting as you read about the establishment of Israel as a Jewish Nation-State, at the time in 1948, there were many learned Orthodox Jews who were not in favor of the creation of a Jewish state in the promised land. The problem they had as I understand it, was that the Messiah was the one who was supposed to return them to their promised land, not the UN.

The promised land is the place where faith believes that all our sins are forgiven.

whatever.

The Jews consider Israel to be the promised land.

But it isn't. The Jews are wrong.

I have never met a person with so little respect for others beliefs as you.

Historically speaking, Israel in the OT was the promised land of House of Israel. Judah and Benjamin the only two tribes not lost to history certainly do have a claim to the land of Israel as having been given to them by the Lord.

They lost their Land and it was restored to them in 1948 through numerous terrorist acts carried out by Jews and eventually a UN resolution.

I do agree that for all of us, the promised land can figuratively be considered the place we come to when we realize forgiveness of all our sins.

But it is historically and Biblically inaccurate to state that the Jews have no claim on Israel as their present day promised land.

Then you havn't met Jesus, he also said the Jews were wrong:

Mathew 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

On the other hand, what are you doing when you say: "I have never met a person with so little respect for others beliefs as you"? What you are doing is showing little respect for the beliefs that I have by showing little respect for me. You hypocrite! You are trying to remove the speck from my eye all the while having a plank in your own eye!

I respect the Jews, I respect their beliefs, I just think their beliefs are wrong. It's got nothing to do with respect.
You my friend are the one with no respect, not me. What's the difference? The difference is I respect the people despite their beliefs, you show disrespect towards people because of their beliefs. You Hypocrite! You viper! You white washed tomb! And you believe you will enter eternal life by being worthy? Hypocrite! You can't even live up to your religious beliefs! Your not worthy! When are you going to obey the commandments continually as your relgion teaches? If you believe your religion is true, then start doing what is expected of you and stop being a hypocrite!

At least I admit I am unworthy, and my religion teaches me that only the unworthy will gain eternal life. So I am no hypocrite. My religion teaches that only the unworthy are forgiven! I am forgiven but you are a hypocrite!

What happened in the OT was a shadow of the reality we have in Christ. Shadow is not reality.

Now now people, play nice You guys argue opposite sides of things just to argue, eh? One is speaking literally, one is speaking figuratively/spiritually.

I think we can agree that present-day Israel is approximately in the same general location that OT Israel described as the 'Promised Land'.



Has there been any kind of testing to determine this? DNA testing? Why I ask is that they didn't just disappear/were exterminated, were they? They were just dispersed.

Hi Allen,

I don't argue, its not in my nature. I am a quiet, softspoken and shy person by nature. I just speak the truth as the Bible has taught me.
And out of concern for Joel, if we are going to get him into heaven, we got to help him live up to his religion. He believes he must CONTINUALLY obey the commandments in order to recieve the crown of life. Lets hold him to his beliefs. Lets expect that from him. Otherwise he is not putting his faith into action.
He is not doing as James says: "I will show you my faith by what I do" We need to help him in this. Trust me. Joel's worth it!

I'm glad you're concerned for me and my salvation. I don't appreciate the patronizing tone of your posts. And you've neglected to note LDS teachings on repentence. Perfection is not required in my faith, rather faith, humility and repentence are more important. I put my faith into action every day and find it ironic that a person who has never met me, or had a chance to observe my faith in action through my good works has such confidence in assessing the state of my salvation.

So I guess since you freely admit your unworthiness you are free to criticize me and anyone else in a very unChristlike and condescending manner. I was simply making an observation. The Jews are historically and Biblically speaking, not wrong.

It's also interesting that what looks like a speck in your eye from your perspective looks like a plank to everyone else.

Nonetheless - this thread is not about my salvation, or LDS doctrine. In fact, I haven't talked about either. Rather, I was curious to know what others believe about the gathering of Israel as prophesied in the OT.

Echo believes it to be Figurative. That's enough out of her. Anyone else...

Allen, not aware of any DNA testing, just the historical record that Jews, ie. the tribe of Judah have a continual historical record from Biblical times to now. The lost 10 tribes, disappearance is historically recorded as the Northern Kingdom was carried away in 721/722 BC.

I'm only aware of linguistic evidence of their dispersion in the European nations.

Thor Heyerdahl, who I'm rather fond of, at the time of his death was working on an archeological project regarding the origin of NOrse Gods like Odin and Thor. He'd found some sort of archeological site in the Middle east which he believed was where Odin and Thor - the real people not the false Norse Gods - came from. He further theorized that Odin and Thor where part of the lost 10 tribes and that they eventually migrated to Northern Europe where their exploits were exagerated into Myth and Legend and they became known as gods.

What's interesting about his project is that many of the prophecies about the return of the 10 tribes include verbiage about them coming down out of the "Northern Countries" which I believe Norway, Sweden and Finland would qualify as.

Just interesting theories with some vaguely corroberating archeological facts. Not religious beliefs so try not to get all worked up Echo.

Judge my heart in the kindest possible way as scripture teaches and you will see that I am not using a patronizing tone. I have only echoed Jesus.



LDS repentance requires overcoming the sin in order to be forgiven by God. If you have to overcome sin first in order to be forgiven, that means that you must "continually obey the commandments" to be assured you are forgiven for all your sins. Think about it, ponder those thoughts over in your mind.

But we must die assured that all our sins are forgiven if we are to enter eternal life. If you must first overcome your sin, you can never have the assurance that is required to enter eternal life unless you continually obey the commandments.

The words we use when speaking to others, the way we treat others by our words are good works just as any other good work.

Mathew 12:36 "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken."


Mathew 12:37 "For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned"

Mathew 15:18 "But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean"

I have observed your faith in action and you fail to show me your faith by what you do.



It is not unchristlike and condescending to Mirror Christ. Think about why Christ did what he did to the pharisees and then assume that Is what I am doing also. It might save your soul.
I do freely admit my unworthiness because anything short of perfection makes me unworthy, but that doesn't mean I feel free to sin and treat people the way you do. I have been freed from sin, I am forgiven! That assurance drives me to treat you with love and respect, to tell you the truth even if it hurts you for a short while. Why? Because I want you to have the assurance all your sins are forgiven.

I respect you and your opinion even though I disagree with you. Why didn't you say it this way in the first place instead of looking down your pharisaical nose? If you want to remove the plank in your eye, that means you must stop judging peoples hearts and motives in an unkind way. Because every judgment of motives you make in this way is a judgement of the plank in your own eye.
i.e. You judge me as showing no respect and in saying so, you show you have no respect for me. You judge me as being condescending and in saying so, you are condescending me. Don't you see?

only if they judge my motives and heart in a negative way as you have, or if they listen to you and your disprespectful responses and you lead them into the same sin you have just committed by judging my heart in a negative way.

Again, your contempt for people shines through. That doesn't mirror Jesus at all.

Joel, you are a white washed tomb, the things that come out of your mouth make you unclean.

Please take my words in the kindest possible way. They are intended to get you to see how unworthy you are. Romans 3:20 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

Because until you see that, you will be blinded to our gospel and you won't be able to "hear" it and be saved.
Romans 3:21-24 & 28 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

Your heart is unclean Joel. It shines through in what you say almost all the time. You can beat yourself to a pulp and repent all you want but your never going to change, your heart isn't going to change. You have a heart of stone! You need a new heart! Your struggling with loving those who love you and failing! But when God gives you a new heart, you will be able to love those who even hate you! When your ready for a new heart, let me know! I would be truly glad to help you with that cause I want to meet up with you in heaven some day and be freinds.

"I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh" Eze 11:19

Is Echo's lack of self-awareness as entertaining to anyone else as it is to me?

I don't dislike you, I simply find that you are unintentionally very entertaining in your responses.

Well then rather than be entertained by what I say and inviting others to be as disrespectful as you are, say something that shows that you respect me and want to help me overcome my blindness. You know, show me what I did wrong and then show me how I might have done things differently, and do all of that respectfully. That would be the christlike thing to do.


Looking forward to your help.

Echo,

We've had a long private conversation wherein at the end, we both agreed that you weren't ever going to understand the nuances of the LDS faith and I wasn't ever going to understand you.

I thought we had a truce.

Then a few days back some folks mentioned that they missed thought provoking threads that required thinking and using their intellect. So I thought I'd start a couple of threads in an attempt to generate discussion.

You rapidly jumped in and hijacked the thread into your personal mission to make sure that I am saved - and I already am - that's the funny part.

If you'd like to try again to save me, feel free to PM me. I don't think anyone else is interested in following our conversation.

Now perhaps they are interested in learning more about or discussing the doctrines of the lost tribes, but after your little diatribe. I think this thread will die as well. As soon as I can think of a new topic to stimulate intellectual discussion, I'll post it. Please try not to hijack it next time.

Thanks.

Joel, it all began with your disprespectful comments. The situation continues because of your disrepectful comments. The thread was going fine until then. Keep the focus on the topic instead of on putting people down and you'll do fine.

Now please carry on with the topic.
Thank you.

Carry on with the topic.