#61058 - 08/25/08 02:45 PM
Twelve Tribes of Israel
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It is interesting to me that one of the major themes of the Old Testament is the the trials and travails of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
Perhaps, in addition to prophecies about the Messiah, the Old Testament is replete with prophecy after prophecy about the gathering of the lost Ten Tribes.
What I find odd, is that discussion about or doctrine on the lost tribes seems to be largely absent from modern Christianity. This is odd because, as mentioned it is one of the primary themes of the OT and as far as I know, the ten tribes have not been found.
I would be interested to learn what other Christian Religions believe on this topic - or if they have any doctrine at all.
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61060 - 08/25/08 08:23 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Registered: 09/29/99
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I don't think we have any doctrine on it. Had the New Testament not happened... well, I don't think we'd have dotrine on it then either since we'd have to be Jewish for it to mean much.
Pastors preach on many Old Testament themes, but almost always in how it pointed to New Testament teachings.
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#61062 - 08/26/08 10:56 AM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Allen]
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This is what puzzles me. I'm not joking when I state that the prophecies of the gathering of lost Israel are of great importance in the OT. So it's puzzling why its not addressed at all by Modern Christian Religion - Oddly, I don't even believe it's addressed by Judaism either. How is it that probably one of the most prominent themes of the OT - which we as Christians also accept as true (with the caveat that the Law of Moses has been fulfilled) - don't even think about it. It's not part of the Law of Moses, but rather a separate issue. Just for a little more background, the 10 lost tribes made up the Northern Kingdom of Israel and were conquered and lost in about 721 BC when they were taken away into the "Northern Countries" I've heard studies regarding trace influences of Hebrew found in many European languages as evidence of some sort of Northerly migration. At any rate, the Lord also promises that they will be gathered and restored to the lands of their inheritance and to the true gospel. Here's some references so you can familiarize yourselves... Isaiah 5:26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. Ezekiel 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. Isaiah 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Jeremiah 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. My personal fave: Jermiah 16:14-16 Jer 16:14 ¶ Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Jer 16:16 ¶ Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.
There's other references, but those should suffice. Why does anyone think it's now missing? These prophecies are talking about what God will do in the "last days" or in our time. So even though they may not have reference to the more common or mainstream NT teachings that our pastors and preachers spend their time on, we ought to be seeing it happen.
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61063 - 08/26/08 11:58 AM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Registered: 11/03/05
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When the Bible speaks about the gathering of Isreal it is symbolism of God gathering those whom would hear the gospel and believe.
The reference to the 12 tribes of Isreal in Revelation 7:4-8 is symbolic of all true believers.
The number "12" is symbolic of the church.
12 squared in 144
One thousand is 10 cubed and is the number representing "completeness"
Thus 12 tribes, of 12,000 totalling 144,000
Meaning the complete number of believers. All symbolism and not literal.
God Bless you
Echo
Edited by Echo (08/26/08 12:36 PM)
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#61064 - 08/26/08 12:49 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Echo]
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It's interesting you would say that, but not consistent with the biblical record.
the 12 tribes in the OT were not symbolic. they were real.
the 10 tribes that were lost were not symbolic. They were real and the historical record shows that they were actually lost.
The promises in the OT that they would be found/gathered/restored were also not symbolic, but real.
And revelations 7 while containing references to the twelve tribes, does not contain any reference to their gathering. I think you and I may be talking about two different things.
Anyway, what does WELS teach regarding the lost tribes.
What does AOG teach?
What do you believe Nabster? AnangelsARMS, Steve? Anyone?
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61065 - 08/26/08 01:57 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Registered: 11/03/05
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the 12 tribes in the OT were not symbolic. they were real.
the 10 tribes that were lost were not symbolic. They were real and the historical record shows that they were actually lost.
The promises in the OT that they would be found/gathered/restored were also not symbolic, but real. Yes. The 10 tribes were lost and it was real. But they also are a symbol of all the lost. And those lost are real too. The OT is both revealed and hidden information. Here is what the WELS believe about the 10 tribes: The Divided Kingdoms of Israel and Judah (1 Kings 12 - 2 Kings 17)
After the death of Solomon, 10 of the tribes revolt against the rule of Solomon's son, Rehoboam. Now the land is no longer united under one king but becomes a divided kingdom. In the north is the Kingdom of Israel or Northern Kingdom. In the south is the Kingdom of Judah. The 10 tribes of the Kingdom of Israel are ruled by Jeroboam and a succession of wicked kings. The tribe of Judah and part of Benjamin are ruled by Rehoboam and a succession of kings, some good and some bad.
The Kingdom of Israel exists from 933 B.C. to 722 B.C. The king of Assyria in 722 B.C. utterly defeats the Kingdom of Israel and carries the people away into his land of Assyria. Those 10 northern tribes are lost to history from that point on. Their destruction by Assyria is a clear reminder that God is in full control of history and that wickedness does not go unpunished. [2 Kings 17:7] makes this clear. It says: "All this took place because the Israelites sinned against the Lord their God ... They worshipped other gods." The king of Assyria brought in other people to repopulate the area that the 10 tribes had left. This area is often called Samaria.
The History of Judah from Hezekiah to the Captivity (2 Kings 18-25)
The Kingdom of Judah is allowed to last for another 130 years. During the reign of good king Hezehiah, the king of Assyria threatens to destroy Judah. But God destroys the Assyrian army and Judah is saved. But in 587 B.C. the king of Babylon destroys Jerusalem, the capital of the Kingdom of Judah, and carries away the people of Judah into captivity in Babylon. Solomon's magnificent temple is destroyed and 70 years of foreign captivity begin. (WhatAboutJesus.com) And revelations 7 while containing references to the twelve tribes, does not contain any reference to their gathering. "gather"(gathering) is in your bible reference to Isaiah above.
Edited by Echo (08/26/08 02:00 PM)
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#61066 - 08/26/08 02:00 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Echo]
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Disciple
Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 1649
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Everything you've cited from WELS is simply about the dispersion and loss of the 10 tribes. Not so much beliefs but biblical fact.
What is your belief about the literal gathering of the 10 tribes, as prophesied and promised in the OT.
God promises Israel that he will gather them, literally, is he in the process of fulfilling that promise?
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61067 - 08/26/08 02:18 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Disciple
Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1138
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The literal dispersion of the 10 tribes is literal but it also is symbolic of each and every one of us. We all have turned away from God:
Romans 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
The literal gathering is this:
Jesus came into the world, lived under the law to redeem us from the law. He nailed the law, including the higher law as you would refer to it, to the cross. The law, including the higher law, was apposed to us (it convinces us that we have become worthless and that none of us does good, not one. It convinces us that we can not ever be worthy)But that law was ended (nailed to the cross) Now Jesus has reconciled us to God forever.
That is the literal gathering.
It fits perfectly with all the passages you cited above. This
gathering is continuing today whereever the gospel is preached and heard.
God Bless you
Echo
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#61068 - 08/26/08 02:20 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Echo]
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Disciple
Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 1649
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So according to you and WELS, there is to be no literal gathering of the actual descendents of the lost tribes of Israel?
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61069 - 08/26/08 02:36 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Disciple
Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1138
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Well all the actual descendants of the lost tribes who hear the gospel and believe it are literally gathered. Those who reject the messages are literally not. God declared an oath that those who reject his message shall NEVER enter his rest.
Hebrews 4:1-3 "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.[a] Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'
Edited by Echo (08/26/08 02:39 PM)
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#61070 - 08/26/08 02:36 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Echo]
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Fair enough.
Anyone Else?
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61071 - 08/26/08 09:24 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 11558
Loc: Texas
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I think we believe they 'returned' May 14, 1948, eh? I know a few preachers who fancied themselves as a 'last days prophet' put a lot of thought into Jesus returning 40 years after that date. In doing some reading, they have been returning for centuries: "Beginning in the 12th century, Catholic persecution of Jews led to a steady stream leaving Europe to settle in the Holy Land, increasing in numbers after Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492. During the 16th century large communities struck roots in the Four Holy Cities, and in the second half of the 18th century, entire Hasidic communities from eastern Europe settled in the Holy Land. The first large wave of modern immigration, known as the First Aliyah ( began in 1881, as Jews fled pogroms in Eastern Europe." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
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#61075 - 08/27/08 09:53 AM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Allen]
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INteresting. Historically speaking, the Jews who have returned to the Holy land since 1948, strictly speaking are descendents of Judah and therefore of that tribe, not the lost ten tribes. the Ten tribes that were lost comprised the northern Kingdom, the southern Kingdom was comprised of Judah and Benjamin and has never been lost to history.
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61076 - 08/27/08 09:54 AM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Registered: 09/08/03
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What's also interesting as you read about the establishment of Israel as a Jewish Nation-State, at the time in 1948, there were many learned Orthodox Jews who were not in favor of the creation of a Jewish state in the promised land. The problem they had as I understand it, was that the Messiah was the one who was supposed to return them to their promised land, not the UN.
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61078 - 08/27/08 03:05 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1138
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The promised land is the place where faith believes that all our sins are forgiven.
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#61079 - 08/27/08 03:49 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Echo]
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Registered: 09/08/03
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whatever.
The Jews consider Israel to be the promised land.
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61080 - 08/27/08 04:26 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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But it isn't. The Jews are wrong.
Edited by Echo (08/27/08 04:26 PM)
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#61081 - 08/27/08 04:47 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Echo]
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Registered: 09/08/03
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I have never met a person with so little respect for others beliefs as you.
Historically speaking, Israel in the OT was the promised land of House of Israel. Judah and Benjamin the only two tribes not lost to history certainly do have a claim to the land of Israel as having been given to them by the Lord.
They lost their Land and it was restored to them in 1948 through numerous terrorist acts carried out by Jews and eventually a UN resolution.
I do agree that for all of us, the promised land can figuratively be considered the place we come to when we realize forgiveness of all our sins.
But it is historically and Biblically inaccurate to state that the Jews have no claim on Israel as their present day promised land.
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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#61082 - 08/27/08 06:30 PM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Disciple
Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1138
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I have never met a person with so little respect for others beliefs as you. Then you havn't met Jesus, he also said the Jews were wrong: Mathew 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." On the other hand, what are you doing when you say: "I have never met a person with so little respect for others beliefs as you"? What you are doing is showing little respect for the beliefs that I have by showing little respect for me. You hypocrite! You are trying to remove the speck from my eye all the while having a plank in your own eye! I respect the Jews, I respect their beliefs, I just think their beliefs are wrong. It's got nothing to do with respect. You my friend are the one with no respect, not me. What's the difference? The difference is I respect the people despite their beliefs, you show disrespect towards people because of their beliefs. You Hypocrite! You viper! You white washed tomb! And you believe you will enter eternal life by being worthy? Hypocrite! You can't even live up to your religious beliefs! Your not worthy! When are you going to obey the commandments continually as your relgion teaches? If you believe your religion is true, then start doing what is expected of you and stop being a hypocrite! At least I admit I am unworthy, and my religion teaches me that only the unworthy will gain eternal life. So I am no hypocrite. My religion teaches that only the unworthy are forgiven! I am forgiven but you are a hypocrite! But it is historically and Biblically inaccurate to state that the Jews have no claim on Israel as their present day promised land. What happened in the OT was a shadow of the reality we have in Christ. Shadow is not reality.
Edited by Echo (08/28/08 12:28 AM)
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#61084 - 08/28/08 12:27 AM
Re: Twelve Tribes of Israel
[Re: Joel33]
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Disciple
Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 11558
Loc: Texas
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Now now people, play nice  You guys argue opposite sides of things just to argue, eh? One is speaking literally, one is speaking figuratively/spiritually. I think we can agree that present-day Israel is approximately in the same general location that OT Israel described as the 'Promised Land'. INteresting. Historically speaking, the Jews who have returned to the Holy land since 1948, strictly speaking are descendents of Judah and therefore of that tribe, not the lost ten tribes. the Ten tribes that were lost comprised the northern Kingdom, the southern Kingdom was comprised of Judah and Benjamin and has never been lost to history.
Has there been any kind of testing to determine this? DNA testing? Why I ask is that they didn't just disappear/were exterminated, were they? They were just dispersed.
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