that is an excellent point... i wonder too if sometimes you just get to understand more as you grow... or if sometimes it is a Holy Spirit thing... like when the Centurion finally got it at the cross, and said "Truly this was the Son of God". a friend of mine likened it to the "scales falling off", though i am absolutely certain that as you said there are things i just wont understand and that is ok.

it is interesting that i have never thought of trying to understand the scriptures as being guilty of making an idol of my own thinking.

WOW. ECHO I AGREE.
Especially the part of "GOd is not subject to man's reason>" This is where we begin to try and understand some things by our own reasoning. In arrogance we think we can understand.

I disagree whenever someone says we simply can't process something with respect to the way God works.

If God is perfect, he can also reason perfectly. He should also be able to explain himself perfectly to eliminate divisiveness.

What do we do when his word offers no solace or answer?

It is a serious problem:

Matthew 3:16-17


This verse shows the triune God being in three different places at the same time.

It conflicts wildly with the notion that Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost are one entity.

Do you simply accept that Jesus is throwing his voice and creating the image of a dove? Even though that sounds incredibly stupid?

God's reason is perfect and our ability to reason is imperfect. But the notion of the trinity doesn't make any sense in light of this scripture. In fact trying to fit the two together is anything but perfect reason.

There's more:

Genesis 1:26 Who is God talking to and who is "us"?

Genesis 3:22 again with the "us"? what's it mean?

John 14:28 Again, my father is greater than I? How does that fit with the notion of the trinity?

Corinthians 8:5-6

This scripture indicates the existence of other gods that are irrelevant to us, but more importantly states that there is "one God" and separately states that there is "one Lord Jesus Christ".

We may not understand the mysteries of God, but when God grants that we may, they will make sense. He's not going to say, "Hey, I was just messing with you when I made the Bible so confusing."

The trinity and it's nature is not a question that can be settled by an appeal to the Bible. If you are content to live with the mystery and wait until God answers all the questions, then great. But it's inaccurate to state that the Bible definitively answers this question.

Oh yeah, to state that I am adding to scripture is inaccurate. I'm appealing solely to the Bible here and quoting scripture directly therefrom. I haven't added a thing.

Yes, I agree. And God has explained himself perfectly and very clearly I might add.

"I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God"Isaiah 44:6

James 2:19 "there is one God"

The division is caused by people who refuse to believe God’s word in all of its simple language that even a small child can understand, even when it’s written in large print so clear to the eye that one cannot miss it.

For you it is a serious problem because you don’t trust God and his word. Basically God says there is one God, you have been taught to think: “no! God is wrong, there are 3 Gods therefore God is a liar” However, we believe in and trust God and his word.




No it doesn’t. Even though God reveals himself to the human eye in one place so that he is seen, he is everywhere at all times, unseen.


We don’t believe in One God who reveals himself in 3 different ways. We believe in One God in three persons.


We are not trying to fit it into our reason. God is bigger than our reason. When you are able to reason perfectly as God reasons perfectly, then you will understand the Trinity.

1 God, 3 Persons.

Jesus chose to be subordinate and to make himself nothing.



One of Satan’s temptations to us is to use God’s word out of context by giving us a part of God’s word while leaving out the most important part! The part that sheds light on the scripture he is using to tempt us! This is how he deceives us. You have been a tool in his hand, I will leave the judging of your heart up to God as to wether you do it intentionally or unintentionally. Hopefully unintentionally. But you left out the verse immediately before wherein it explains very clearly that you have misinterpreted these passages, I will highlite the passage you left out:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 “4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

The verse is speaking about Idols of which many people worship but they aren’t really God. They are “so called Gods” in other words, God’s made up in the minds of men.


What’s so confusing about this? “James 2:19 "there is one God"



The Bible explains as much as we need to know. God isn’t subject to man. Man is subject to God. . If we insist that God must bow to our reason (rather than our bowing to his), that would be an example of the very sinful human arrogance that is at the heart of our problem as sinners.


When I said you added to scripture, that was when you took a verse in your other post and claimed the passage says that God is one in purpose. The passage you quoted didn’t say God was one in purpose. In this post, you havn’t added to God’s word. However, in this post, you have subtracted from God’s word by leaving out the verse in Corinthians. This is equally as bad as adding to God’s word. You add and subtract from God’s word often. Try doing neither.

Joel, you wouldn’t have a problem accepting the doctrine of the Trinity at all if you only believed that all your sins are forgiven now instead of in possibly weeks or years or centuries. If only you believed that Jesus is worthy and was your substitute instead of your example and thus struggling to be worthy on your own of which you and I will never will be.


Hugs!

Well then I think we are saying the same thing. and once again it becomes a matter of semantics.

Let me just ask to be clear. If God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost were all in the same room and we were able to see them, what do you think (Echo) we would see?

I believe I would see three separate beings. That doesn't make them not one.

Jesus prays in John 17 to make the 12 one as he and the father are one. Again, I believe the 12 to have been perfectly unified, one group leading the church. I do not believe Jesus wanted them to be one being, but one entity? yes, the quorum of the twelve apostles.

At any rate. I just want to know what you think we would see.

seriously Echo, please just drop this debate. Your presumption to know what I believe and arrogance at thinking you understand Mormon doctrine better than I do has worn extremely thin. Just drop it.

The Godhead/Trinity does not have to fit into a box of our making.

God, who existed prior to creation and will exist after creation is gone cannot be explained away witha few short sentences.

Just because you can see seperate manifestations present at the moment of Christs baptism does not mean that God cannot still be one. The Bible even tells us that we do not understand the truly awesome power that He wields. (His ways/thoughts are higher than ours)

Creation was spoken into existance by sheer force of will, you can say He "spoke it" if you like.

He breathed into clay and it became a living flesh body.

He created a whole other race of beings to serve him. (Angels) They are currently the only beings that can transcend the journey between heaven and earth.

God exists outside of time. He made time to conveinence us.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It would be so very arrogant of us to try and force God into a tidy little set of parameters that we can swallow just because our tiny little minds can't wrap around a concept because we are earthbound and He is not.

Agreed.

So why is everyone so intent on fitting it into a Catholic Box?

The only biblically recorded description of someone having seen God and Jesus at the same time is Stephen the Martyr.

Acts 7: 55-57



I only included the last verse because it sounds like what Echo does to me whenever I blaspheme (in her opinion).

There it is again though, a person actually seeing God and Jesus and describing it. And guess what, Jesus was next to God.

And I too do not believe this means they can't be one. I just have always considered their oneness to be a perfect unity of purpose.

Or he understands the science better than we do and can manipulate it perfectly.

Or he used the elements to create man in a perfectly scientific fashion that we don't understand and therefore it appears miraculous.

Interesting discussion, particularly if not interrupted by Echo's outbursts.

i apologize for my lack of understanding here, but the phrase "Catholic Box" is one i am unfamiliar with... could you clarify?

The definition of the trinity/triune God/Godhead everyone here seems to affirm is one that descends from the Nicene Creed.

Echo thinks that by typing bolder and bigger that the Bible states "There is one God" somehow will erase the mucho Biblical evidence that God is only one in purpose, not a single undefinable entity.

The questions really devolves down to what we mean when we say one God? Does it mean a single entity or does it mean God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost separately with a single purpose?

Either way, typing with extremely large and bold font types could be interpreted either way.

The Catholic Box I referred to was just me trying to point out that as much as everyone else thinks I'm trying to fit God into my box, I think y'all have accepted the Catholic Box of the Nicene Creed definition of the Godhead.

Thank you sir for explaining.

i very much appreciate people telling me what they honestly believe, rather than sugar coating it, for sugar coating does me no favors.

I have done some research to a host of sites with a host of thoughts on this topic. Many do reflect what has been spoken by the majority in this thread thus far. While some site the same struggles you have.

But here is the thing. For me, I believe every word of the Bible is true. So, the verses where the Son is speaking to the Father, or the Holy Spirit is speaking to Jesus etc... all are true. The verses where it very clearly states there is only one God are true. The verses where the Son and the Father are referred to as one and the same are true. All of it is true. I cant cherry pick verses. I take it all as true. This is why the definition of the Trinity fits it so beautifully.

The definition of the Trinity as I understand it is this: there is one God, one Being who is God and only God; yet that one God has three different Persons, separate personas , the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe this is totally supported by the Bible.

I would say, sir that if my words seem in any way rude or disrespectful i apologize right here and now.

If i sound ignorant... i would say "guilty", but i must say the most compelling part for me is that God's Scripture is complete and inerrant.

The point that was made by several comments above that God does not have to fit into man's sense of reason or logic may seem in one way a "convenient fallback" and frustrating from a debating point of view. but the really exciting thing is that it is absolutely true, and that He truly is so much more than even the greatest minds of this planet could ever fathom, that the more i explore, the greater that truth seems to smack me in the face.

I honestly dont know as i hit "submit" if this will cause controversy in this group or if any will agree... i really dont... yes... admittedly i am that ignorant. but i believe there is great irony in that word "submit" is what i am hitting!

None the less, sir please know i respect your thoughts, as i do everyone in this group.

love, amy

No. It's not a matter of semantics. You believe in 3 Gods, we believe in One God.
You bring up the semantics card alot as if somehow that makes what we believe nearly the same. But nothing can be farther from the truth.

See Luke 3:21-23

Joel, this is in fact the most important thing we can discuss with one another. For us, the message of forgiveness is the sum total of the Gospel message and by which men come to believe. You don't want to be guilty of despising the gospel do you? I personally wouldn't think you would do it intentionally but perhaps unintentionally you would.
But I do spend much time reading official LDS sources, In fact I own a few of them and I am willing to purchase more if you would like to reccomend some good books. Other times I visit LDS.org and also, I have spoken with numerous Mormons whom I respect such as yourself.

You have expressed in your own words what you think we believe and have gotten it wrong, I would think you would be as patient and understanding with us as we are with you. We think your worth it! Even though you get it wrong, it gives us an indication of where your at in your understanding of what we believe and it gives us the opportunity to explain a different way. Like I said: "your worth it"

Hugs

We are not. We are fitting it into the God box.



The phrase: "God's right hand" is figurative for equal honor and authority.



I will let God respond to your words:

Mathew 12:36 "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken"

I don't mean to sound rude but you keep missing it and I just want it to be clear to you.Don't take it wrong, let me try again.

"I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God"Isaiah 44:6

James 2:19 "there is one God"

God is singular

It means 1 single entity. God said "I am the first" not "we are the first" and God said " I am the last" not "we are the last" and "there is no God besides me" not "there is no God's beside us".

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me."

Which God is yours? The Father alone, the Son alone, the Spirit alone?

not the Catholic box, the GOD box.

Hugs

JOEL33


You believe that good works come before forgiveness , but I believe that good works come after forgiveness.

When did you show love to your parents, was it before or after you were born?

We are “born again” into God’s family by believing we “are” forgiven and by believing that forgiveness is free(not having to overcome sin before it takes effect). Therefore the love we show to God by doing good works comes “after” we are born again and not before.

1) Read the verses below and tell me who specifically was reconciled to God through Jesus Christ?

2) The verse also explains what it means to be reconciled to God, what does it mean to be reconciled to God?

2 Corinthians 5:18-20 ”And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.”

3) In the verse below, what does God impute without works?
4) What does that mean?
5) Are we forgiven now or are we forgiven later after weeks, years or centuries?

Romans 4:6-8 “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

6) In the 3 verses below does it say that God WILL forgive us in weeks, years or centuries or that he HAS forgiven us already?

Ephesians 4:32 “And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake HATH forgiven you”

Colossians 2:13 “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”

1 John 2:12 “I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.”

It is through the message of the gospel that we are born again and come to have saving faith. And what is the message of the gospel? It is the message of the forgiveness of all our sins.: 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the GOSPEL which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, HOW CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

The Bible teaches that just like we show love to our parents after we are born and not before, so too we show love to God by doing good works “after” we are born again, “after” we are forgiven, not “before”.

Hugs

Amy

You have spoken a wealth of wisdom.

If I look into Heaven, wehich I cant, and I have no clue what i will really "see". I believe I will see a being that somehow represents all 3 entities of the triune God. I believe the Physical being of God and Jesus will be one , but somehow I will understand in my spirit they are both Jesus and God. ANd I will feel the presence of the Spirit simply because the Spirit is God and Is Jesus and I will be in the Presence of all. I dont relate Heaven to what I will see, Joel. I am not even sure we will see, like we do on Earth. We would be foolish to assume Heaven is anything like Earth. The bible gives "man's" description of Heaven as it relates to Earth (streets of GOld)...but I seriously doubt they will be made of GOld, Or gates of Pearls...Heaven will not be defined by Earthly things. If it could , then Earth could become Heaven in the right combinations...and it cant. The physical properties of Heaven cannot be contained in Earth.
I might see 3 beings, might see 1. I might even see 3 in 1. I possibly could 1 morph into any of the three at any time...who knows. I will not base polytheism or Monotheism on speculation which I derive from MY OWN REASON BASED ON WORLDLY PHYSICAL PHYSICS. Joel and everyone is foolish to believe they know what Heaven holds and What God looks like (beyond biblical description). God will not show us yet. It will undermine faith (for if we really knew we would believe_hence not faith any more)and we simply cant understand the magnitude of Heaven yet.
Nab

I am totally down with that.

Echo

You've dodged the question. Tell me in your words what you would see.

yes, but it is not the subject of this thread. If you'd like to discuss it, start another thread, and if I want to discuss it with you, I'll join in. But don't hold your breath.

you conveniently dismiss the only Biblical eye-witness account of God and Jesus in the same place at the same time by "interpretation"

Your interpretation is certainly plausible, but it is not the only possible interpretation. It is equally plausible that Stephen actually saw Jesus standing on the right hand side of God. Two separate beings, yet still one God.

again, I'm not sure what the value of typing things bigger and bolder is - other than being annoying. I'm perfectly capable of reading what you write in a normal font.

You cite numerous scriptures where singular pronouns are used in reference to God and I earlier cited numerous scriptures where plural pronouns are used in reference to God. It conflicts.

no i don't.

Start a different thread and quit hijacking this one. In this thread we are discussing questions of apologetics. the first question is, "How is a Christian to respond to questions about the nature of God or the Godhead." Not "How do Mormons believe we recieve forgiveness?"

It was your endless dithering on that topic that got a good thread closed.

Besides the topic on Mormonism and forgiveness has been discussed so thoroughly that I believe you are the only one that is not clear with respect to where I stand on the issue. I'm sure that Nabster gets it, as does Allen. But my answer doesn't fit with your preconcieved notions of what you've been told Mormons believe, so you can't accept it and continue to "beat a dead horse." If you haven't understood what I've said thus far, and your recent post certainly indicates that you haven't, then you never will. So drop it.

Nabster- I appreciate a human that has the guts to answer the question rather than dodge it.

I may be foolish to believe I know what heaven holds, but I believe Stephen learned more about the nature of God and Jesus by seeing them for a few minutes prior to his martyrdom than can be communicated in the Holy writ.

Oh, I almost forgot

AmyK,

I don't struggle with the notion of one God in 3. I've just chosen to use words in a way that explain this notion and eliminate the unneccessary mystery.

I don't believe man can have real faith in a God that he is incapable of knowing and understanding.

When I think of God, I most certainly think primarily of God the Father. Jesus is his son, the Holy Ghost is their messenger.

But yet they are one. One God. However, in order to keep the distinctions clear, I typically refer to them in their oneness as the "Godhead". Perfectly one, perfectly unified and a single entity in their majesty. Yet three separate beings with distinct roles and responsibilities.

I approach the Father through the Son and my relationship with them is confirmed to me through the Holy Ghost.

So I say it again, I'm not troubled, I know the nature of God. He wants us to understand it, not to have his nature shrouded in mystery.

I do think that those who simply accept it as a mystery should definitely be troubled.