Hi there,
so i started our new Bible study which is a seeker friendly book on the authenticity of the Bible... now most of us in the group are longtime believers who accepted simply on faith, and dont really have any answers for the "tough" questions, and yet more and more we seem to have friends and acquaintances asking "the tough questions", so we are sort of trouble shooting and working through some of these things... but i have one i will throw out there to hear your thoughts... my sister called and was telling me she cant understand if Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are 3 yet one, why would Jesus cry out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" on the cross?

what response would you have?

First and foremost we are talking about a God that exists outside all the "rules" that he gave us. He does not have to obey physics (gravity, time, space etc) Those rules are for us to operate in.

God can create by sheer force of will. When He speaks, things happen.



Jesus had to put aside his divinity when he came to earth.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus was 100% human though he had only 23 earthly chromosomes. Until his 30th year when he was baptised he did not even have the aid Holy Spirit which indwelled him at that moment. Jesus lived under the Old Testament and was the first in history to ever live and perish under the law without sinning. When He went to the cross he had to die as one of us.

Matthew 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Hell is as much a state of existence as it is a place. Hell is where you become cut off from God, you can no longer communicate with God and are utterly alone in the darkness. Right now even the spirit of the ungodly can still feel and hear God. (how else could he reach out to them.) At that moment on the cross God removed himself from Jesus' presence and Christ could no longer feel God there. It had to be that way for Christ to complete the Law, dying utterly alone in a sinners death. It is no wonder he cried out Eloi, eloi lamma sabacthani. He had been left to die. That last moment was crucial.

I have likened God to a cut gem. You keep turning it and you see different facets but it is still the same gem. The trinity is the same way.

Good one steve.
Jesus was fully God, yet fully man. We cant even understand that...but it is truth. He left the Father to come to earth and become the sacrificial lamb. The replacement once and for all for all sacrifice for sin. He was spotless, he was perfect. He was the WOrd made flesh. He cried out to God as a man. He died as a man. He arose as a saviour, no longer just man. NO longer necessary to be just a man without sin.
Be carefull in the discussion of apologetics. Atheist have a hard time grasping things because they simply must know every how to and every fact about everything, or they cant believe anything. We will never know everything, this side of Heaven. You must scholarly references so no "half truths" are put forward and assumed as fact either.
I do however love the fact y'all are discussing this stuff. We hd some good ones with Joel...

wow, thank you so much... enough there for my little brain to chew on for quite some time, which is why i am so excited to be starting to try and "beef up" on such things...

the people who the question/argument originally came from is a group of gentlemen who are muslim from the middle east. my sister works for them. they are devout muslim, and have been pressing her on questions of Christianity... and at the same time I (while living in a diff state... i am a Michigander) am trying to offer some support. She was already sort of buying in to their rhetoric, saying maybe she would only pray to God the Father, since there is only one... and i reminded her that Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", but i must confess i know so little of such things, and it is time i start really getting stronger in why i believe what i believe...
i heard a great quote the other day that said something to the effect that "a humble life in Christ can speak volumes more than the most planned debate", and i want to be sure every thought is drenched ultimately in love for whoever i am speaking to...

thanks again, i too have great interest... and it sounds like you folks have some awesome things to consider...
if it is ok, i will throw more out there as it comes my way...

love, amy

I think the above is in conflict with the below



Where do we see He "put aside His divinity" when He came to earth? Maybe I am reading into your writing something other than what you meant, but I believe Jesus always was/is divine. Obviously He put on the human body when here on earth, but at all times He remained "fully God" as well.

It almost borders on mormonism if we say Jesus was only a man prior to his baptism. What say ye?

I agree Allen. I think I am struggling trying to find the right words to convey my thoughts.

Let me sum it up like this: Jesus could not perform a Miracle until his Baptism and yet fully God. There was part of himself that did not have access to and you are right, divinity is not the right word.

My response would be that the Bible doesn't necessarily teach that they are one and the same and that the doctrine of the trinity as it is accepted by most of Christianity finds its root in the Nicaean Creed.

That being the case, why can't Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost be three separate beings that are simply "one" in purpose. There is a lot of support for this idea in John 17 as Jesus offers the intercessory prayer. Read it.

Additionally in Matthew 3 when Jesus is baptized we see Jesus being Baptized, hear God speaking from Heaven, and see the Holy Ghost descending as a dove. This would indicate some separation as to their physical nature.

I disagree with this notion. I believe rather that God perfectly obeys all laws and rules. I believe simply that his understanding of physics, gravity, time, space, etc is such that he can operate within those natural laws in ways we don't understand.

why thank you.

AFter all this time we still misunderstand Mormons so grossly. Too bad the topic is closed.

Jesus was born the son of God. Literally, and as such he was God as Man. That doesn't mean he set aside his divinity, rather because he was divine he was able to be perfect. God, remained in Heaven and as such, Jesus prays to him, not only from the cross, but multiple time throughout the Bible. Since most folks consider talking to yourself a sign of insanity, this would make Jesus crazy and less than perfect.

I think traditional Christianity should really, really examine the trinity doctrine. It seems odd to reject Catholicism, but embrace the Nicaean Creed definition of the Godhead.

And the nicaean creed finds its roots in God's own word.



The passage says: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" You have added to God's word by saying they are one in purpose. The passage does NOT say that, it says they are one.

What happens when you add to God's word?

Proverbs 30:6 "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."


Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"

Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,"

Duet 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

Mark 12:29-32 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:"

Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."

James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."



I think traditional Mormonism should really, really examine Joseph Smith's doctrine. It seems odd to reject God in favor of a man.

I think you need to heed God's own word and give up on Joseph Smith's fairytale. Forgiveness can't be bought. Your forgiven right now. Not in weeks, years or centuries!


"I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God"Isaiah 44:6

hmmm good stuff... i have another friend who mentioned that the question was in aramaic, while most of the new testament is greek... not certain if that is of particular significance. but my friend also suggested that the question was more rhetorical, and the evidence of being a willing innocent substitute/sacrifice on the cross, totally of His own free will, and that being the place the question was asked helps affirm the presence of the three in one on the scene...
wow... what an incredible moment in time! doesnt it just make you tremble to think of it?

Oh that passage does. To think when those drops of his blood hit the ground the sky darkened, the veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom and the earth shook, tombs opened and the dead walked!!!!!!

*shivers*

What do you think about Him being sinless for 30 years? It would be considered a miracle today...

I also believe that he followed the entire law successfully. He proved that the flesh can be conquored with "just a man's will" and not some special boost from God. He had the Holy Spirit to guide him and the use of the Holy Spirit's powers to perform miracles on his extraordinary three year trek to the cross, but the previous thiry years he lived/interacted as an ordinary man and beat the system as it were. I think that is what makes his sacrifice even more gripping.

It really gives me hope on my not-so-good days.

So Jesus wanted the Twelve Apostles to be merged into one single entity?

That's what you are saying.

Jesus is praying in John 17 that the Apostles might be one, like he and God are one. Yet then, if I follow your interpretation through to it's conclusion, he doesn't answer his own prayer because the Apostles aren't merged into one super-mega Apostle.

Clearly Jesus is praying that the Apostles might be one in purpose, rather than one in being.

At any rate.

I don't think that one must accept the doctrine of the trinity in order to be an acceptable Christian.

If any of you didn't recognize it, that little editorial from Echo is what it sounds like when you beat a dead horse.

winnnnnnnnnnnnnieeeeeee NNNNNaaaayyyyyyhehehehehee bbbbbbbbb...
Clop clop...

NO. I am saying that you are taking a verse that can be twisted to support your position if you Add to it, but you fail to see all the other very clear scriptures outlining there is only ONE GOD, Not three Gods.

According to you, the verse below should read: "we are the first, and we are not the last and besides us, you will all be God's too"




But actually, it contradicts your beliefs very clearly. There has only been one God as it made clear by the word "I" And there will only always be one God as it made clear by another "I". This is made clear by God being the "I" am the first and "I" am the last. In other words, the only one!
According to your beliefs, there are more than 3 Gods for you yourself believe that you and other LDS will become Gods. But God says "there is NO OTHER GOD beside me."

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"

Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,"

Duet 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

Mark 12:29-32 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:"

The above verse clearly says there is one God and refers to him as a "he" not a "they".


Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."

James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."



James 2:19 "there is one God"

James 2:19 "there is one God"

James 2:19 "there is one God"

seriously, What is wrong with you?

Ok, i have a question... since this seems to stir up so many diff responses... why do you think God allowed for this to be somewhat gray?

I imagine that Adam didn't have any question with regard to the nature of the Godhead.

I just think time has obscured the picture.

As Echo so amiably points out, there are several places in the OT and NT where God states plainly that there is only one God. Yet in other places in the NT Jesus is clearly praying to someone else, yet he is God. Or someone else claims him as his Son while the Holy Ghost descends as a dove.

It's a very good question you ask, and one that I imagine will challenge the faith of some folks.

It poses a question which I like - why is the Bible so prone to so many interpretations, while at the same time presumed to be the final authority on all spiritual questions?

To me the Bible raises more questions than it answers?

Now if everyone will prepare themselves for the customary unhinged response from Echo to my heresy, I think we'll all pull through unscathed.

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

The Bible also teaches that there is only one God and no other.

I don't think it is that God has allowed this to be a grey area.
It is just that we are finite and imperfect and thus can't totally comprehend the infinite and perfect. We must simply bow down to God's word rather than trying to create an idol of our own thinking. Lets remember that God is everywhere all the time. This is also a profound mystery to us.

So these things are profound mysteries to us. Like I said before, we simply bow down to God's word rather than trying to create an idol of our own thinking who fits in with our reason. God is not subject to man's reason. We don't add to God's word or he will rebuke us and call us a liar. We simply take him at his word, nothing more, nothing less.