Not true.

LDS doctrine is clear.


We are are the spiritual creations of our Heavenly Father and as such we are all brothers and sisters, even Lucifer. Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven that is cited in the Bible we believe occurred prior to the creation of the Earth. At that point Lucifer was cast out. That's what is referred to when the author you cite states "this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind." Lucifer was rebelling against the plan of God and trying to usurp the position of Jesus Christ.

Part of becoming a God, or being an heir or joint-heir with Jesus Christ of all that the Father hath, includes coming to this earth to receive a body, be tempted and tried, to see if we remain faithful. Because of his rebellion Lucifer never had that chance and never will.

Yeah, I read the same site you did with this quote in it (it was the same one citing Gordon B. Hinckley out of context). I don't see it.

What is or what isn't an angel is purely semantic. Not a strong argument - especially when you simply make a statement and don't back it with actual Biblical references. Freshman level mistake, I believe it's called an assertion.

Since your argument was flawed from the outset (Mormons believe Lucifer was a god?), your conclusion is invalid.

Huckabee's record on Crime is indefensible. His lack of command on any issues of national security is laughable. His track record as governor is horrendous.

Mitt's record is impeccable.

Joel, it is clear all things were created - spoken into existence...until God made man. From the dust of the Earth. he formed and then Breathed Life into Him in his Image. This is different than spirit being of any other nature. We all descend from Adam - and we are different. Not brothers. (jesus and satan)
Your logic would say we are brothers with cows and chickens and the fsh of the sea too, since God "crerated us all". I cant go there with you on that one. Although i have been acccused of being descended from something less than Adam...

Paul, prior to conversion, put confidence in his flesh. He said about himself: "as for legalistic righteousness, faultless!"
Paul thought he was worthy. He scrupulously conformed to the 10 commandments outwardly.

This same Paul after conversion goes from seeing himself (with regards to his righteousness) as "faultless" to saying: "NO ONE will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.
Paul goes from seeing himself as "faultless" to saying: "If OUR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS brings out God's righteousness...God is unjust in bringing his WRATH on us?"

Jesus didn't bring a higher law. He summed up the OT law. Mathew 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

Notice also that Jesus sermon on the mount brings WRATH! Paul felt he was faultless until the sermon on the Mount revealled what law demands of us. It was that wrath that got Paul to go from thinking he was "faultless" to being himself under God's wrath.

The Purpose of Jesus sermon on the Mount? To take all the Pharisees of the world(Mormons included because of mormon teaching) and humble them in order to prepare them to hear the gospel. Law brings wrath, those who think they can be worthy by odedience to the law will be found guilty of breaking the entire law. The purpose of the law? God is looking for "real" men, not "good" men. Real men would hear the sermon on the mount and give up thinking they could ever be worthy of God's grace.

You think Mormon teaching can fill in the holes in Christianity-After all, you have the "restored Gospel!"

What you fail to grasp is that Joseph Smith created his own hole, he dug his own grave and fell headlong into it. The solid ground of scripture, without holes in it, warned Joseph Smith against visitations by angels:

2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Joseph Smith dug his own grave and fell headlong into it. A "restored gospel" is a "different gospel" and a "different gospel" is "another gospel." And the gospel Joseph Smith taught is a gospel other than the one Paul taught.

I KNOW that Mormon teaching doesn't fill in any holes in Christian teaching. Mormonism is more like a bottomless crater that leads straight to outer darkness. Mormon teaching doesn't fill in the holes in christianity, Mormonism represents deep graves dug outside of Christianity.

The solid ground of Christian teaching is unconditional forgiveness.

God has forgiven us, he has forgiven the world, he has forgiven everyone in Hell(Outer darkness). ( 1Corinth 5:19, 1 Tim 4:10)
There are no holes in that doctrine. All believers die with a clear conscience. Unconditional forgiveness.

The grave Mormonism has dug is "conditional forgiveness".

From LDS book:

"Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance(In LDS theology repentance means overcoming the sin, not merely sorrow over sin) and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works-many works-and an all out, total surrender, with a great humility and a broken heart and contrite spirit" "It depends on wether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before you have that positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.(LDS book "the miracle of forgiveness" By Spencer W. Kimball.)


In summary:


In the judgement on the last day, our conscience will either condemn us or not.

Christians trust in Jesus, they have a clear conscience.
Mormons trust in themselves, they have confidence in their flesh, their conscience will condemn them.

Hugs

tsk tsk tsk...

I didn't cite that author, had not read that statement until you posted it. You're trying to be 2 steps ahead when you're 1 behind

I do see via google there's >450 sites who do attribute that quote to Milton Hunter, one of the "First Council of Seventy".



???

Again, Lucifer was Angelic, Jesus is divine. Lucifer is a creation. Lucifer *never* had that "chance", neither any other angel. Where do you get that?




Again, what site are you talking about? Hinckley wasn't "taken out of context" in my earlier post. I posted the context of his speech. I can post the entire text if you like...



???

An "assertion" is a freshman level mistake? At least you said "I believe it's called" and weren't sure... if you were sure then your statement would be "an assertion"
"
to state or declare positively and often forcefully or aggressively
"

Are you this distraught over the primaries? Your posts are making less and less sense.

What is or what isn't an angel is not semantic. Angels are creations, as Nabster already covered. Paul also speaks of the Creator in his letter to the Collosians:


Collosians 1:9-17

Pretty clear, don't you think?

The Bible teaches that Jesus is divine and not angelic and that Lucifer (Satan) is angelic and not divine. Instead, Mormonism proclaims that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man …” and “… You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you …” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345, 348).

Very.

but that's beside the point.

I think the better question is... Where do you get that? not me. You've twice asserted that Lucifer is Angelic and Jesus is divine. Show us biblically what the difference is. Personally, I believe that to the extent we are all God's creation, we are all divine.
Yep, but it hardly contradicts Mormonism.

Nabster

That is not clear, there are multiple Biblical citations which show it to be "not clear"

When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38: 4-7. The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12: 7. Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1: 4-5. We are all His offspring, Acts 17: 28. God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1: 3-4. We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12: 9. The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1: 6 (Abr. 3: 26). The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12: 9.

all of those references point to a pre-existence. Now, I will grant you this, the detail we Mormons believe about what exactly happened in the pre-existence comes from modern revelation through modern Prophets.

I would have thought that you could make the logical leap to assume that we could only be brothers and sisters with those beings that at least closely resemble humans.

Echo's turn....

seriously, read the Sermon on the Mount.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat005.html?q=Matthew%205#top


You are so wrong.

The Sermon on the Mount was actually Jesus teaching us a higher applicability of the base version of the Law that existed in the 10 commandments. It was Jesus showing us how to live a peaceful and content life.

The Gospel isn't simply about eternal salvation, it's also about temporal salvation and about the life we are living right now, so that we can be happy now. Assurance of our salvation through Jesus is part of that, but also living a simple Christian life is part of that.

By the way, folks love to cite this scripture and say that proves Mormonism is false.

Let's not forget that the restoration of the the Church did not begin with an angel. It began with a visit from God and Jesus Christ.

More importantly, Mormonism doesn't preach another Gospel. You do.

But frankly the one who can settle that debate is God himself, because the Bible is inconclusive.

Nabster/ from joel33

Quote:
it is clear all things were created - spoken into existence...until God made man.
That is not clear, there are multiple Biblical citations which show it to be "not clear"

When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38: 4-7. The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12: 7. Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1: 4-5. We are all His offspring, Acts 17: 28. God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1: 3-4. We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12: 9. The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1: 6 (Abr. 3: 26). The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12: 9.

all of those references point to a pre-existence. Now, I will grant you this, the detail we Mormons believe about what exactly happened in the pre-existence comes from modern revelation through modern Prophets.


Joel33
in every instance in Genesis 2:2-24 during creation GOd said "let there be" and it was created. THen when He made man in verse 7 he said, "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. "

This is clearly different than other being created. Jesus came from "mankind" when He came to Earth. Satan never has and never will be anything like mankind. Physically and spiritually they can be no more alike than grass and cars.

ANgels cant know redemption. Mankind can. Jesus knew redemption, He was the author of it. Satan cannot. He is merely angelic being.
DO you think we are all related in some way and alike?

By the way - God knowing us before He created us, does not point to pre existence.
That is a leap. God knows all from Alpha to Omega. Of course He knew...But it doesnt mean pre existed. Mormonism at its best.

Are we brothers of the Cherubim with six wings or the demons of darkness that serve Satan?
Brothers and siters imply family either by blood birth (mankind)or Christ (by spirit).
NOT BY CREATION. another ood example of Mormon leapisms

INside evangelical christianity we can disagree on doctrinal issues of Bapts=ism of Holy Ghos or Pre trib post trib. But we never have discussion about some of the things Mormonism does. Y'all are jsut way out there when comparing to evangelical Christianity. Either that or we are way there. And y'all right on track.
Echo - eough with the "law" repititions. They are getting tiresome and Joel understands your point. It seems the entire WELS organization hangs it hat on free salvation with no effort on your own because THAT is a work. ENough already. WELS is on its own on that one inside evangelicl Christianity too. If not, you wouldnt be WELS, but Lutheran or Presby or AOG or whatever.
SAlvation is to be recvd, read all the scripture in context will ya? Dont take 2,3 or even 4 and not weight them against the rest of the Gospels that say believe and be baptised or believe and repent or any other way it is stated. GOd is not hiding anything when it comnes to salvation. It is blatant and literal and repeated multiple times. Clear as a bell. REPENT RECEIVE (and secondary is the ACT of baptism.)
These are not works. But acts of the spirit to take what is been freey given forever.

The difference here -
divine - God
angelic - creation



- John 1

Jesus was with God in the beginning... all that came after was created. Jesus was not created, He always was, from the beginning.

That's the difference.

We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment.



- Collosians 1:15-18

It can't get any plainer than that. He existed before anything else. Everything in heaven and earth was created by Him... Lucifer, you, me.

JOEL33



Paul, prior to conversion, put confidence in his flesh. He said about himself: "as for legalistic righteousness, faultless!"
Paul thought he was worthy. He scrupulously conformed to the 10 commandments outwardly.

This same Paul after conversion goes from seeing himself (with regards to his righteousness) as "faultless" to saying: "NO ONE will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.
Paul goes from seeing himself as "faultless" to saying: "If OUR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS brings out God's righteousness...God is unjust in bringing his WRATH on us?"

Tell me, why the huge change in Paul's idea about himself?

Why does Jesus say this: "Mathew 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"??



No. "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" Satan can masquerade as Jesus and God also.


Our gospel comes from the Bible, yours comes from the BOM or the mouth of men.


God is not incompetant and inconclusive as you claim he is. He is able to preserve his word. Your God hasn't the power to thwart the purposes of men, ours does have that power.

NABSTER

Perhaps I should talk about it more instead of less. Perhaps I am not explaining it in the best way or a way that is easily understood or perhaps you are failing to grasp WELS teachings. Why don't you give it a try by asking a question at www.wels.net they have a great Q&A

Hugs!
Echo

Nabster,

That was a fantastic post. I'm still laughing.

at any rate, down to business:




This quote was the most insightful statement that anyone has made in this thread. I've often thought the greater purpose for this thread would be to feel out differences and seek mutual understanding and acceptance as opposed to proving one wrong or right, because "proof" is very elusive and neither side has presented anything definitive, nor are they likely to ever find definitive proof.

It's certainly an interesting argument you make, however, to create something physically and to create something spiritually are two separate things. We simply believe that God Created us all spiritually prior to the physical creation of the Earth and our bodies.

Allen cites John 1:1 and states that how could Jesus be created if he was with God at the Beginning. The question is, the Beginning of what? the creation of the earth? The creation of heaven? What?

At any rate, Mormons also believe that Jesus was the first spirit child of our Heavenly Father, in essence created before anyone or anything else and participatory in the creation of everything and everyone else. So yes, in the beginning was the Word and Word was with God. No doubt.

this comes down to the question of what is an Angel?

Who's to say? The word angel means simply messenger from God. There are certain doctrines that mankind has fostered down through time ranking angels and whatnot but those are, academically speaking, inventions of man and not derived from the Bible.

In the LDS concept an Angel can be one of many things:

It can be a spirit that has not yet come to earth that is being used as a messenger of God.

It can be a spirit that has lived on this earth and is not yet resurrected that is being used as a messenger of God.

It can be a resurrected being that lived on this earth and is being used as a messenger of God.

The only thing all of the various definitions of Angel should have in common is that they are messengers of God.

I don't have the time to cite the LDS scirptures on this subject... but here's the overview.

We believe that God created us all spiritually, Jesus as the Firstborn spiritually (and later, only Begotten physically). God wanted us to have the opportunity to come to earth and receive a body, be tempted and tried so that we could learn and develop and become more like him through the experience and knowledge we would gain.

He realized that through this process our souls would be tarnished by sin and so he put forth a plan for us to be able to return to him by reliance on a Savior, who would die for our sins. Jesus the Firstborn and pre-mortal Jehovah stepped forward and offered himself as our Savior and said to God, "Let the Glory be Thine." Lucifer, one of our many brothers was rebellious and stepped forward and offered himself as a Savior and said to God "Let the Glory be MINE."

Thus the War in Heaven was begun. Those who wanted to follow Jesus were lead by the angel Michael and they defeated Lucifer and a third of the heavenly spirits (those who followed Lucifer) were cast out, never to receive a Mortal body and therefore incapable of being redeemed.(as you said nabster, Lucifer cannot be redeemed and in that we agree - for he was only spiritually our brother and never physically.) Two-Thirds of the heavenly spirits "kept their first estate" and those two thirds are sent to earth. Michael being the first spirit sent due earth, the literal breath of life that was breathed into Adam.

Don't expect me to support what I've said above from Biblical sources, while I certainly could point to many scriptures that tie into our version of the pre-existence, the fullness of this doctrine has been revealed through modern revelation.

Allen,

Nothing you said really conflicts with LDS doctrine at all.

Echo,

Prior to Saul/Paul's conversion, you know when he was perfect under the law. He was a Pharisee, not believing in the teachings of Jesus and therefore abiding by the law of Moses. Even more evidence that the law Paul rejects is the law of Moses and not the higher law taught by Jesus.

because he was converted. Most people who are converted change their idea about theirselves. Particularly when prior to his conversion he was a law of Moses abiding Pharisee.

Echo, I think you misunderstand the Historical implications of the Bible and their impact on doctrine. Paul is talking about his past and the Law of Moses. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount talks about fulfilling the law of Moses and states that rather than simply not Killing, followers of Jesus are expected to control their anger - however, they have the added benefit of forgiveness through Christ for when they fall short.



It doesn't it says

According to this translation of the Bible, it doesn't sum up the Law and the prophets, rather it is the law and the prophets and also amongst the closing statements of the Sermon on the Mount. Simply because he said it at then end doesn't mean that the rest of the Sermon was meaningless.

I guess it goes to show that the way you understand the Bible sometimes depends on which translation you read - again, the Bible is inconclusive.

Um, God has thwarted the purposes of men by restoring the true church to the earth. After the Biblically prophesied Apostasy.

Perhaps you should join a different church. You know one that confuses you less.

Not evidence at all. Paul rejects the Pharisees interpretation of the law after having his eyes opened to what the law really meant.



The OT people had the benifit of forgiveness also. They looked forward to the Savior we look back to the savior. But the saviors forgiveness was for people of all time, not just those that came afterwards.

This supports my view making the point I made even clearer than I did. All that Jesus taught on the sermon on the mount can be summed up in the words" do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

And then Jesus says: "This IS The law and Prophets"


He doesn't say: "This is a higher law, higher than the law and prophets."

We have been through this, The NT clearly teaches that the apostasy was only partial, it doesn't include all people.

And everything that Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount still brings wrath. That is why it is better to trust in Jesus and his works instead of trusting in yourself and your works.

Instead of earning God's grace by doing all you can do."Saved by grace after all you can do"(BOM)

Believe that God has already poured out all his grace upon you in Jesus and then go forth and do all you can do. It's the only way to heaven. You can't earn Grace. Grace is for the undeserving not the worthy. You won't ever be worthy Joel, You have failed miserably to prove to be worthy in my eyes, how much more so in God's?

Hugs

And the pharisees were interpreting the Law of Moses and not the higher law preached by Jesus.

No point in discussing it further. I'm sure that everyone here would agree that the law Paul is talking about is the Law of Moses. I'm sure they also agree that Jesus taught a different interpretation of the Law of Moses focusing more on our hearts than our actions, and replacing the sacrifice of burnt offerings with the sacrifice of a contrite spirit and a broken heart.

Allen?

Nabster?

Am I right about that?

perhaps that was your conclusion but definitely not mine. The Bible teaches simply that there will be an Apostacy.

Again, that's not what we believe.

Nabster said it quite well in an earlier post. He said something to the effect of the Grace of Christ is that which saves us and our works determine our reward in heaven.

Care to correct that Nabster.

I know

why should I care about that?

I think he's more rational than you are, plus, He's a Mormon.

Exactly, the Pharisees were interpreting the law of Moses, but they interpreted it incorrectly. Jesus clarifies what the law meant all along. Jesus wasn't teaching a higher law, he was "summing" it up. Or as you quoted he said: "This "IS" the law and the prophets."




The OT law was intended to be from the heart and notjust the outward actions. The Pharisees just watered the OT law down to externals.



PROOF right here. You said Jesus replaced the burnt offerings and replaced it with a contrite spirit and a broken heart. Joel, those are OT words, not NT words.

Psalm 51:17 " The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise."

So you see, this was the intent all along. It was the Pharisees who misinterpreted the law.



"Many" will turn away Joel, not "ALL":

Mathew 24:10 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,"



Not according to the below quote. Salvation from sin is conditional for you Joel. For us it is unconditional. Jesus already saved us from our sin. "It is finished!" Jesus said.





Because those who love God care very much about being careful not to sin against another human being with their words. And when it is brought to their attention, they generally have a broken and contrite spirit about what they have done.

Hugs
Your friend Echo

Except that it does - you left out the part where mormons believe God was once human too. The goal of mormon spirituality is to repeat this cycle and be God as well.



And that, my friend, is where we believe the mormon faith is a cult, not unlike the people waiting for the hale-bopp comet. The mormon doctrine cannot be supported by biblical scripture... it makes for a good story tho.

Jesus was there in the beginning - "He existed before anything else". Biblical scripture states all things were made through Him, by Him.

I guess I'll ignore Echo again, cause we all know where she stands and where I stand.

Allen...



You missed this bit...



There is indeed Biblical support for LDS doctrines, however, the Bible is spotty. Revelation has filled out the rest.


So I guess what you're ultimately saying is that any religion that claims modern day revelation is preposterous?

Am I understanding your position correctly?

Beginning of what? The earth? Definitely.

We believe that as well, when speaking of the physical creation.

Wasn't relevant to the discussion as we were talking about our pre-existence.

Which I said here...

Lets just discuss forgiveness. Your thoughts?

As a Mormon, you have to earn God's forgiveness(salvation from sin), we Lutherans have already been forgiven. We can't earn God's forgiveness.

How is it possible to earn forgiveness? We believe Forgiveness is free. Unconditional.

If I loan you $10,000 and you tell me you can't pay me back, if I forgive your debt Joel, then that means you don't have to pay me back. If you pay me back as the LDS teaches, I didn't forgive your debt because you paid me back. Think about it. Forgiving a debt means you don't have to pay it back. And if you don't have to pay it back, then it is unconditional.



Not according to the below quote. Salvation from sin is conditional for you Joel. For us it is unconditional. Jesus already saved us from our sin. "It is finished!" Jesus said.




Hugs!

Do you believe in the need for repentence?

Or is it simply, we've been forgiven so it matters not what we do?

The LDS position as is clear from the source you've cited is that in order to be forgiven we simply must change.

What is the point of being forgiven by God for cheating on one's spouse if you're simply going to go out and do it again? Has one truly repented of that sin? Probably not.

Indeed Christ has already paid for it. But forgiveness is conditional based on where a person's heart is. Is their intent and attitude (which can only be determined by God) to actually change?

The scriptures in the quote you cited are pretty clear



and 2 Peter



Hmm

So do you believe a person doesn't have to repent, but rather that they are forgiven while in the very act of sinning?

If so, then who is not saved? We all are. And you can leave me alone.

If repentance is necessary, the very word means to turn away from and reject past sins, not to engage in them any longer.

Believe and confess= forgiveness recvd.

I would consider the very act of confessing to be a work.

is repentance merely confession that you've sinned or is it, as many languages suggest, also turning away from the sin?

in fact from blb.org not an LDS site

Repent in the Greek comes from the word metanoeō

and it means:

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

Further info from BLB.org indicates



Repentance is an active process, turning from sinful state to God. With that proper fram of mind we are able to accept the divine forgiveness. I think FF Bruce puts it quite well.