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#58339 - 01/22/08 06:13 PM Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33]
Joel33 Online   content
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Registered: 09/08/03
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Quote:
The LDS believes that to be saved by works a person thinks they can overcome death by works alone. That is, that they think they don't need Jesus overcoming physical death for them.
Totally wrong, and I actually have no idea where you would have gotten that idea. All men are granted resurrection through Christ regardless of how they have lived. No works at all. Just be born, then die and you'll be resurrected.

Quote:
Also, I read up on Grace over at LDS.org and Grace appears to mean something different than what we believe also.
Grace, for you, is some kind of power to help you overcome your sins.
In a manner of speaking. It's really more about your mention of sanctification. As we accept the grace of Christ we not only overcome the sins we've committed and are forgiven, but we are also endowed with power to rely on Christ to avoid sin in the future.

It's basically what I've been saying. If the grace of Christ has truly been applied in our lives, the natural consequence of that extension of grace will be our obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

the Grace of Christ is extended through his atonement it will allow
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17

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#58341 - 01/22/08 06:35 PM Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33]
Echo Online   content
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1087
Quote:
Totally wrong, and I actually have no idea where you would have gotten that idea. All men are granted resurrection through Christ regardless of how they have lived. No works at all. Just be born, then die and you'll be resurrected

You misunderstood what I am talking about let me say it differently. What I am trying to learn is what it means to the LDS when they say a person is saved by their works?

Quote:
In a manner of speaking. It's really more about your mention of sanctification. As we accept the grace of Christ we not only overcome the sins we've committed and are forgiven, but we are also endowed with power to rely on Christ to avoid sin in the future.

It's basically what I've been saying. If the grace of Christ has truly been applied in our lives, the natural consequence of that extension of grace will be our obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

the Grace of Christ is extended through his atonement it will allow
I am still unclear of your definition of Grace, could you explain it with an example perhaps?

Hugs
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#58343 - 01/22/08 07:28 PM Re: Mormons [Re: Echo]
NABSTER Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/15/04
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the unclarity is really unclear. let me explain. what i meant to say was the clarity which is unclear right now, could be made clearer upon understanding what i mean by clarity. the definition of clarity is to be made clear. In LDS teaching it means to be made clear after all you can do...WELS, says clarity is given to all freely and nothing you can do can make you clearer-er. Baptists -once clear always clear. We AOG's say clarity isnt forever and we can lose our clarity by turning away from the source of clarity....
oh dear...I ramble. Allen, dont ban me.
hehehe
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#58345 - 01/22/08 07:47 PM Re: Mormons [Re: NABSTER]
embie Offline
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help
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#58346 - 01/22/08 07:50 PM Re: Mormons [Re: NABSTER]
Echo Online   content
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1087
Nabster, I'd say get a name change to Nastier. slap laugh


unuts
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#58347 - 01/22/08 10:04 PM Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33]
Allen Administrator Offline
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Registered: 09/29/99
Posts: 11360
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Joel33

So there you have it, Biblical evidence to back up LDS doctrine. I don't expect anyone to consider this definitive proof, rather simply evidence that such an outcome might indeed be a possible end result of salvation.

As I've said many times before, I don't think anything can be proved by appealing directly to the Bible. If I were you all, I'd make my appeals to God, through prayer and get answers through personal revelation.


I know I have, I imagine others in this topic have too, the answer has always been that any 'personal revelation' should line up with Biblical scripture.

Always.

I posted a pointed response to your oft-repeated 'ye are gods' and you all but ignore it. I asked for context to the scripture you pointed to, what I got was, for the most part, 1-2 verses taken out of context. Again. I could go through and do your homework for you, but what's the use? You'd ignore it and move on to calling me a liar again. The same could be said of the whole dna discussion, your response was to post a link to a 130 page regurgitation of mormon propaganda with even more material taken out of context.

You are intellectually dishonest in your responses whenever someone responds with any kind of backbone. Seriously. What is the point of this discussion? Do you find it stimulating at all?

I'll admit I came into this discussion 6 years ago not knowing much about the mormon religion. After 6 years (and 80+ pages) I can honestly say that I know quite a bit more about it and definitely see it for the cult that it is.

Something I mentioned earlier and Joel felt it was taken out of context. Here's the full context. Read for yourself and pray for personal revelation.

Quote:

`Crown of gospel is upon our heads'



President Gordon B. Hinckley paused for a moment while addressing members of the Church from Switzerland and southern France to revel in the beauty of that part of the world.
``I love the mountains, the Alps which rise from the valleys of Germany and Switzerland, the great rivers which flow with waters from melted snow, the crystal lakes, the forests, villages, farms,'' he said.``But the most beautiful thing I have seen is not the mountains, not the rivers, not the lakes, but you, my faithful brothers and sisters, giving strength to one another.''
President Hinckley was in Europe to dedicate the Preston England Temple and to address meetings in three other countries. Prior to dedicating the temple on June 7, he spoke in Paris, France, on June 4; Frankfurt, Germany, on June 5; and Geneva, Switzerland, on June 6. (See the June 13 Church News for coverage of the temple dedication and President Hinckley's address in Frankfurt, Germany.)
In Paris, President Hinckley addressed missionaries in the Versaille Chapel during the afternoon of June 4, and spoke to 2,400 members from the Paris France and Paris France East stakes, as well as members from the Caen, Tours and Rennes districts that evening in the Les Pyramides Convention Center in Paris.
In Geneva, President Hinckley addressed 4,200 members from the five stakes of Nice France, Lyon France, Geneva Switzerland, Zurich Switzerland and Bern Switzerland. He opened his remarks in Geneva by reflecting on the growth of the Church in Europe since he attended an area conference in Munich, Germany, 25 years ago.
``It is a miracle what has happened in the last 25 years. ``Most of you are converts.
``How you appreciate those who befriended and loved you. I plead with you to reach out in love, in friendship, in companionship to the new converts of the Church. Let them feel, in you, an anchor in the storm they encounter; an anchor of faith, truth, and friendship.
``With all our numbers, we are still a small group in the midst of the population of this world,'' he continued.
``The crown of the gospel of Jesus Christ is upon our head. In this dispensation, the Lord has declared that this Church is `the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth.' ''
President Hinckley then related an experience from his mission in England when a young man came to his door.
``He was soaking wet,'' remembered President Hinckley.
`` `When I joined the Church,' said the young man, `my father asked me to leave, the athletic club where I belonged dropped me, the girl I wanted to marry told me that she could not marry me because I was a Mormon.' He also had no work.
``I asked him why do you not leave the Church so you can go back to your father, to your work and to the others?
``He cried, and said, `I could not do that. I know it is true regardless what happens to me. I cannot leave it.'
``I watched him as he walked away. There was, in him, the strength of the Church, not in the buildings, not in the facilities, but in the hearts of members. The same is true for you. You carry the truth. There is no alternative but to go forward.
``I feel blessed to be here in Geneva which harbored the reformers, gave asylum to those who spoke with a different voice, who spoke with the truth as they found it.
``I believe that the Reformation was inspired by God to lay the foundation for another time when an angel would come to preach the gospel. I salute the men of the Reformation such as Luther. They knew loneliness, but they stood up. Some gave their lives.
``Joseph Smith knew loneliness, even at 14 years of age. He was reviled and persecuted. We can see his loneliness when he said: `Why persecute me for telling the truth.'
``Brothers and sisters,'' he said in conclusion, ``I remind you that when you have embraced the gospel, you need to stand even if it means loneliness for you.
``The world may scowl at you, friends may ridicule you, but your testimony must thrive in your life. Walk boldly, quietly, but with confidence and assurance in your life.''
Accompanying President Hinckley on the tour was his wife, Marjorie, who spoke during the member meeting of her happiness and her testimony.
In his remarks in Paris, President Hinckley said the most beautiful thing in all of this great nation is those who have in their hearts a conviction that this work is true. ``Each of you has the opportunity and the responsibility of gaining that conviction.''
``How?'' he asked, and then mentioned three ways: serving in the Church, reading His sacred word and simply living the gospel.
Continuing, he said: ``I am grateful for the marvelous blessings of the Lord, and that I can stand before you this night my beloved brethren and sisters, and lift my voice in testimony of the truth of this work. . . . When all is said and done, the most important thing I can do, I believe, is to speak out without equivocation and say that I know that God, our Eternal Father, lives. He is the great Almighty.''
In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ``do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.
``Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.''
Following President Hinckley's visit to Paris, Elder Alain A. Petion, an Area Authority Seventy, described the sense of unity and love that prevailed following the member meeting.
``Looking over the congregation from the stand as everyone was waving farewell to President and Sister Hinckley,'' he said, ``there was a moment when all the waving hands swayed from side to side in harmony, as if everyone were in one accord.
``Sister Hinckley mentioned in her talk how being in the meeting seemed to lift her off the ground,'' he continued. ``After the meeting, members came up to me and said that the experience was so edifying, it seemed that they, too, were lifted off the ground.''



http://www.desnews.com - you have to have a membership to find the article, they pulled it from the public pages for some reason. whistle

That's context for you Joel - mormons believe they are `the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth.' They also believe in a different Christ: "President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ``do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times."

Those 2 beliefs tell me all I need to know about the mormon religion. Anyone who follows it follows a cult.

But you already knew that. Your purpose here is to cause confusion and draw others to your cult. We don't need to pray any longer about a story from the fertile imagination of a 14 year old kid. Even if the visit by the angel were true it was an angel of darkness, not unlike the serpent in the garden: eat this and you can be God too:

Quote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


This topic has run its course. We aren't the site of mormon apologists, yet the focus here for a while has been this topic. Joel has become increasingly irrational. We can't begin new topics without them getting buried by mormon propaganda in this topic.

I encourage anyone with questions about the mormon faith (or any faith) to first read the Bible, pray about it and see if the faith you are interested in lines up with Biblical scripture. More information can be found at:

http://www.mormoninfo.org/

For maybe the 1st or 2nd time since we opened nearly 9 years ago, I am closing a topic and moving on. Stick around Joel, surely you want to discuss something else.
_________________________
- Allen
- I don't need things, I need people - mb © 2002

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#58348 - 01/22/08 10:06 PM Re: Mormons [Re: Echo]
NABSTER Moderator Offline
Disciple

Registered: 08/15/04
Posts: 2058
Loc: Smyrna,Tn
Zoiks!!!! ruff monkey
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#58509 - 01/28/08 12:27 PM Re: Mormons [Re: NABSTER]
Joel33 Online   content
Disciple

Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 1606
Loc: Formerly of Pittsburgh - Now i...
I first want to thank Allen for letting me make one last post in this thread.

Today is a sad day for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Last night, the prophet and president of our church, Gordon B. Hinckley, passed away at the age of 97.

Our church as many of you know is lead by a man who we consider to be a prophet on par with Biblical prophets. Gordon B. Hinckley was the 15th prophet of the church.

But he was more than that.

Starting in the 1980's Gordon B. Hinckley was a counselor to President Spencer W. Kimball. For the last several years of Spencer W. Kimball's tenure as the prophet he was too ill to actively lead the church on a day to day basis. As such, from about 1981-1985, Gordon B. Hinckley effectively presided over the church. When President Kimball died in 1985, Ezra Taft Benson was called as the prophet, for five or six years President Benson remained in good health but again, around 1990, his health deteriorated to the point where once again Gordon B. Hinckley was largely responsible for the day to day management of the church. President Benson died in in 1994 and was replaced by Howard W. Hunter. President Hunter died unexpectedly only 9 months later and President Gordon B. Hinckley became the prophet and president of the church in 1995.

President Hinckley was very quick to raise the profile of the church. He appeared in a lengthy 60 Minutes profile on the church. He was twice interviewed on Larry King, and during the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake in 2002 he was interviewed by multiple media news outlets from several countries.

President Hinckley was the most well traveled prophet in the history of our church visiting over 60 countries to meet with the members of the church around the world.

What's interesting, is that the church has tripled in size since the 1980's when Gordon B. Hinckley first came to the forefront. As a result, well over half of the current membership of the church has more or less only known him as the prophet.

Additionally, since he became the prophet of the church in 1995, the church has grown from only having 47 temples around the world to now, 13 years later, having 124 temples. During his tenure as the prophet we built on average 1.5 chapels per day.

His wife of 67 years passed away in 2004. As you know Mormons believe that we will be reunited with their families in the afterlife. As such, we all rejoice to know that he is reunited with the love of his life after being separated from her for a long 4 years.

In a few days the Lord will choose a new prophet from among the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The church will move on, the work will continue.

For me however, there is a very personal side to the passing of Gordon B. Hinckley. He was called as an Apostle in 1961 and two years later, married my mom and dad in the Salt Lake Temple.. When my grandfather passed, in 1992, President Hinckley spoke at his funeral and took a special ongoing interest in our family and was on very good terms with my father. I've met him and spoken with him on many occasions throughout my life. Most recently, a few years ago, he called my parents to preside over one of the missions of the church. Our whole family was able to meet with him at that time and spent quite some time visiting with him.

He was humble and down to earth, he shared a love of gardening and working with his hands. He was personable and kind.

He was the best example of a man living a Christlike life that I have ever known. It can truly be said of him that because I knew him and saw him and his actions, I was only driven to seek to know my Savior better.

I've posted a couple of links that do a better job of talking about him than I can.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695247816,00.html

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695247765,00.html

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8095453

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8096897

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8096894
_________________________
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17

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