Wrong.

The author cited 159 sources 13 of them were LDS sources. That's less than 10%.

and

73 of the 159 sources he cites were written after the year 2000. that's not quite half, but certainly not regurgitation from 1997, it's also not FARMS data and also not from the nineties. So wrong again.

Wrong again.

The evidence shows that there was a more or less unbroken presence from 950 to the early 1400's and that they were widespread even reaching to the upper Mississippi.

the point of the article that I linked to by the apologist was that there is so many variations that it is impossible to make a definitive conclusion regarding the origins of ancient Americans by appealing to DNA evidence. He makes that point by citing non-LDS sources. It's a valid point.

I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say I realize that the change from "primary" to "among" has you quite unnerved, but the fact is, the claim that Lehi was the Primary ancestor of Ancient Americans is not a scriptural claim. The Book of Mormon does not say that.

By large populations, I assume you now that the Nephites and Lamanites in the Book of Mormon descend from two families (a total of 10 to 14), that came here together. Is it possible that the genetic influence of 10 -14 people could be lost? Most definitely.

For years, most Mormons have believed that the Nephites and Lamanites rapidly intermarried with the natives that were already here in order to generate the numbers of people that are talked about in the Book of Mormon. I was even taught that in LDS-seminary when I was in High School and I graduated in 1992.

You know, I hadn't thought of this earlier, but, I was thinking last night and I realized the following. There is a second reason DNA evidence is irrelevant.

As I said, Lehi and Ishmael's families leave Israel in 600 B.C. and arrive here about 12 years later. while they are traveling Ishmael dies and shortly after their arrival Lehi dies. Lehi has six sons that are primarily discussed and two of them emerge as leaders of separate factions after his death. Nephi and his followers are called Nephites. Laman and his followers are called Lamanites. Laman is the unrighteous/rebellious son. Much like the Canaanites had a dark skin in the OT, the Lamanites are given a dark skin so that the Nephites will know not to intermarry with them. We see countless times in the OT that when Israelites intermarry with non-covenant people like Canaanites that the results are disastrous.

Over the many years the Book of Mormon covers, the Lamanites and Nephites obviously do intermarry. At times, the Nephites are the righteous group and at other times the Lamanites are the righteous group. In the end, nobody is really righteous except for a handful of Nephites who are exterminated by the Lamanites.

I tell you all this for one reason. The Lamanites had their skin color altered by God. Could this affect a person's DNA? I suppose it could. Then the Lamanites eradicated the Nephites - those who still would have had traces of Israelitish blood.

Archeological evidence? If we accept the proposition that Lamanites and Nephites intermarried with others who were already here (and I do) then we have the archeological evidence.

Are there not ruins in Latin America? Do they not come from the ancient inhabitants of this continent? I believe that's much more than a "trace" of evidence.

By my count, that's 14 - every one of them in the section you linked to and far from the exhaustive listing of all of them. I think maybe you got the ratios of lds::non-lds backwards. Either that or you were just plain lying.

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Not even sure I'll count again, but of my list above, all but two is pre-2000. I'm inclined to think your counting here is just as bad as the previous example.

We're back to "dark skin is a curse". I thought the mormons were enlightened in 1978 with Hinckley's vision/premonition/whatever. Is there still some bigotry in mormon teachings you aren't telling us?

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
• • •
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.

That's where you misunderstand DNA and genetics, either out of ignorance or as a desire to support your theories. Besides, the bom states they came to the promised land in 8 vessels - ships as large as trees - did most of the only have one sailor?

In the very next chapter they began to "begat sons and daughters" and "multiply" - not once mentioning intermarriage with the locals.

I think maybe you got the ratios of lds::non-lds backwards. Either that or you were just plain lying.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I didn't say that.

American Indians were never denied the priesthood, that's an entirely different issue. The Book of Mormon clearly explains the reason the Lamanites were given a dark skin.

2 Nephi 5:21, 23-24



It is no different than the Lords commandment not to marry with Canaanites in the Old Testament.

Canaan was the fourth son of Ham, the son of Noah. It is widely accepted that the African race descends from Ham. The Lord is fairly clear in his instruction in the Old Testament that his covenant people are not to intermarry with Canaanites. This is the same thing that is stated in the verses I cite above, with respect to not "mixing" with the Lamanites.

It is no different than the OT and it happened to take place during the same time frame as the OT, hence they were under the same law, and commandment to not marry outside of the covenant. If you believe the Bible, you've accepted a very similar course of events to that in the Book of Mormon. It certainly doesn't make the entire Judeo-Christian world racist.

Maybe you don't see it, but mainstream Christianity sees the mormon faith as a cult, not any different than jehovah witnesses, branch davidians, moonies, whatever.

I'm pretty sure you know I wasn't discussing American Indians - black people were denied the priesthood until 1978.

Your full disclosure was far from it - you were the one who thought the number of sources was important. It definitely didn't seem like we were reading the same site - the sources I posted were a portion of the ones he used throughout his text (using your link provided I scrolled up once and down twice, posting the references noted by lindsey), not a list of sources he put toward the bottom.You didn't include the ones he used throughout his text or the list of mormon references he put below your list of 'sources'. If you counted them in their entirety you'd see his use of lds references far outnumber any non-lds references tagged on the end.

Back on subject - you are saying in one post that the DNA of the lamanites was lost due to 'mixing' and in another post state that lamanites were forbidden to 'mix'. Aside from the fact that y-chromosome and mitochondrial dna pass down 'un-mixed' through the father and mother (respectively), which is it? Did they mix or not?

[quote]Have enough confidence in your own beliefs to not sacrifice you personal ethics in the quest to disprove Mormonism.

The point is he lies.

He lies because he knows no one else will actually go to the site and read it for themselves. so he feels free to misrepresent what is said there.

Have you ever written a research paper? All the sources he cites in the article are referenced at the end in the "Literature Cited" section.

If you're tired of a competent Mormon posting on your site, then simply ban me and erase the thread. That's no different than the folks in Missouri in the 1800's who simply tried to erase the Mormons.

You still have YET to read your own link, if you did you'd see what I did. All you have ever done for the last 4 years is copy and paste - you have yet to think for yourself.

The link you posted was to 130 pages of mormon propaganda. It went to a section entitled:
Asiatic Origins Taught by the Book of Mormon?

That being said, just read this website, admittedly it was compiled by a well known LDS apologist. However, the sources he cites throughout are not LDS.

Good luck, it is a long read, informative nonetheless - the basic conclusion is that DNA evidence provides insight but is inconclusive with regards to defining exactly who populated our continent anciently.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml#asia

As I said, the author is most certainly biased, but the sources he cites are most certainly not. He even discusses this information on lineage X and addresses your most recent objection.

I *know* you have yet to look at the section you linked to or you would see what I saw. 1 screen up and 2 screens down is nothing but citations to other mormon propaganda. I counted 14 references in those 3 screens and all were mormon-related, none were non-lds. none.

Mormons do not serve the same Jesus we do and they freely admit it. They also believe they are the one true church in the world.

The "curse of black skin" mean anything to you? That's still ongoing in the bom. Changing that one entry didn't fix the others still found within.

Jesus - we believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of Mankind. We believe that he died for us and suffered for our sins both on the cross and in the Garden of Gethsemane. We believe he was resurrected on the third day so that all mankind may be resurrected as well.

Is that really different?

The differences non-Mormons will point to typically revolve around our disagreement with the Nicean Creed doctrine of the Trinity. But lot's of Christians disagree about that, so what's the Big Deal.

as for the one true church? Yes, we believe that in our church God has restored the entirety of the truth. This is not to say that other churches merely preach falsehoods for they don't. Rather it is to say that the fulness of the Gospel can only be found in the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When have I ever shied away fromt that?

President Hinckley, like all Mormon Presidents before him, is revered by the LDS people as the mouthpiece of God and referred to as “prophet, seer and revelator” for the Church. When Hinckley addressed a gathering of 6,600 young Mormon missionaries assembled in Paris in 1998, he was speaking in this capacity.

In their account of the event, the Mormon-owned news agency, The Deseret News, reported, "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.' (Hinckley said) ‘No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness (sic) of Times...In this dispensation, the Lord has declared that this Church (Mormon) is the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth."

So where does that leave mainstream Christianity in a competent mormon's personal opinion? Are we going to hell? After all, we reject the jesus of the BOM...

As for the rest of your post, I'll look at it later, stuff as simple as screen resolution must play a part because I didn't see all those non-lds references when I read your link

Quote Echo:

Why not teach law(good works) and then Gospel(good news) seperately?

Quote Joel33:
Because they are the same. If you have faith you will do good works, they cannot be divided.

Jesus and satan are brothers. pure blsaphemy.

Your own "heavens and kingdoms."

praying for the dead to be saved.

WAlks like a mormon, smells like a mormon talks like a mormon...must be...not a christian, but a mormon.

Prosperity preaching, feel good preaching, no altar calls after services...makes me want to puke and probably our God as well.
I hate lukewarm and watered down christianity. Not the person but the weak message of lukewarm. Get on - get off or get out. But dont preach Christ and live like the devil.

absolutely not. At least not Biblically. You certainly have a right to feel that way, but don't pretend that it is an indefensible position.

My frustration is at its height these days due largely to the political situation. the single best candidate on the Republican side is not going to be the Republican candidate due largely to anti-Mormon bias and outright anti-Mormon propaganda attacks that have been levied against him from within his own party.

Huckabee is altogether too vulnerable to attacks on his record to beat Hilary or Obama. McCain is perceived as too old. And Guiliani is too Democrat to win as a Republican. And yet the base of the Republican party is rejecting the one candidate who is intelligent enough to take on Obama's empty rhetoric and tough enough to fend of the Clinton political machine. We will not have a Republican in the White House because Mitt is the only one who can possibly beat the other two, yet he won't even be the Republican Nominee.

Brilliant move to reject a guy who has a shot at winning and actually will support traditional Christian values, simply because of the intolerance int he Christian Right toward Mormons.

Now I've ranted.