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Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58136 01/04/08 07:22 PM
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Posts: 12,104
Allen Offline
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Originally Posted by Joel33
Quote
The sources he cites in the paragraphs you link to are most certainly biased mormon apologists.
Wrong.

The author cited 159 sources 13 of them were LDS sources. That's less than 10%.
[/quote]

Again, the section you linked to are most certainly references to mormon apologists. I don't have time right now to count every one for you, but embellishing the facts is a personal pet peeve of mine:

  1. The above passage was also printed in an article by Hugh Nibley, "The World of the Jaredites," in the May 1952 issue of the official Church periodical, The Improvement Era.
  2. Further, in 1967, Nibley stated that "the Book of Mormon . . . presents no obstacles to the arrival of whatever other bands may have occupied the hemisphere without its knowledge" (Nibley, 1967, p. 249; pp. 218-219 in the 2nd edition).
  3. In the Dec. 1975 Ensign publication of the Church, Lane Johnson, Assistant Editor, prepared a short article entitled "Who and Where Are the Lamanites?" (p. 15).
  4. In 1960s, the First Presidency allowed the Church to publish a widely distributed pamphlet, "These Are The Mormons," by Richard L. Evans, reprinted from The Christian Herald (Nov. 1960), which made this statement about Book of Mormon peoples
  5. When John Sorenson of BYU published his paper in 1992 about others being on the continent, he argued convincingly that it is:
  6. For more information on the limited geography of the Book of Mormon being appreciated by LDS scholars and leaders decades ago, see the article "Unanswered Mormon Scholars" by Matthew Roper (1997, pp. 122-132).
  7. See also "The Historicity of the Book of Mormon" by Elder Dallin H. Oaks.
  8. Matthew Roper has published an excellent article, "Nephi's Neighbors: Book of Mormon Peoples and Pre-Columbian Populations," FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 15, No. 2, 2003, pp. 91-128,
  9. Interest in the possibility of additional migrations to the Americas seems to have persisted among Latter-day Saints. In 1852, the Deseret News cited with interest an account of a purported Welsh migration to America "three hundred yeeres before Columbus." ["Discovery of America, above three hundred yeeres before Columbus, by Madoc ap Owen Gwyneth," Deseret News, 3 April 1852, p. 44.]
  10. [Orson Pratt, in Journal of Discourses, 12:343 (27 December 1868), emphasis added.]
  11. Two years earlier, LDS scholar Janne Sjodahl wrote that "students should be cautioned against the error of supposing that all the American Indians are the descendants of Lehi, Mulek, and their companions" (Sjodahl, 1927, p. 435).
  12. In 1938, William Berrett and Milton Hunter, with others, produced A Guide to the Study of the Book of Mormon as a study guide for the Church Department of Education. This book indicated that "the Book of Mormon deals only with the history and expansion of three small colonies which came to America and it does not deny or disprove the possibility of other immigrations, which probably would be unknown to its writers" (Berrett et al., 1938, p. 48).
  13. John Sorenson (Nephite Culture and Society: Selected Papers, Salt Lake City: New Sage Books, 1997),
  14. Gardner, 2001; see also Brant Gardner's online article, "A Social History of the Early Nephites").


By my count, that's 14 - every one of them in the section you linked to and far from the exhaustive listing of all of them. I think maybe you got the ratios of lds::non-lds backwards. Either that or you were just plain lying.




Originally Posted by Joel33

Quote
The history is interesting to me, but this could take a while for me to go through each example you regurgitate from a circa 1997
and
Quote
but eventually you're going to run out of FARMS data from the 90s,


73 of the 159 sources he cites were written after the year 2000. that's not quite half, but certainly not regurgitation from 1997, it's also not FARMS data and also not from the nineties. So wrong again.


Not even sure I'll count again, but of my list above, all but two is pre-2000. I'm inclined to think your counting here is just as bad as the previous example.

Originally Posted by Joel33

Quote

First - vinland was several viking attempts at settling in new england/ southeastern canada (New Foundland), none of which lasted more than 2 years. They kept fighting with the local native americans and losing badly. There was nothing like "live here for over 500 years". It was less than 5 years total.
Wrong again.

The evidence shows that there was a more or less unbroken presence from 950 to the early 1400's and that they were widespread even reaching to the upper Mississippi.


I cannot find any evidence of what you stated, please post a link to a non-lds site for verification. If what you state is even close to true the information is easily available.

Originally Posted by Joel33

the point of the article that I linked to by the apologist was that there is so many variations that it is impossible to make a definitive conclusion regarding the origins of ancient Americans by appealing to DNA evidence. He makes that point by citing non-LDS sources. It's a valid point.


Wrong - the article you linked to argues both sides and the middle enough to make any discussion pointless. Please read it yourself and not just link to it - it says "A is false and B is true" throughout most of it but includes sidebars that state "If A is true it doesn't matter any way, since we do not base our faith on whether A or B is true". Except that scripture throughout bom says B is true.

Both sides and the middle. Just like your statement quoted above.

Originally Posted by Joel33

I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say
Quote
the much larger populations of the nephites and lamanites were here
I realize that the change from "primary" to "among" has you quite unnerved, but the fact is, the claim that Lehi was the Primary ancestor of Ancient Americans is not a scriptural claim. The Book of Mormon does not say that.


True, it was included in the introduction by McConkie, one of the 12 Apostles, from whom all truth flows. How can the mormon faith allow a statement they do not believe in be included as the official intro to their beloved bom stand for 26+ years? Ether 2:5 itself states "And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should ago forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been." It sounds like McConkie may have been led astray by bom scripture, believing it actually did mean the jaredites were the principal ancestors, since no-one else had been there prior.


Originally Posted by Joel33

By large populations, I assume you now that the Nephites and Lamanites in the Book of Mormon descend from two families (a total of 10 to 14), that came here together. Is it possible that the genetic influence of 10 -14 people could be lost? Most definitely.



That's where you misunderstand DNA and genetics, either out of ignorance or as a desire to support your theories. Besides, the bom states they came to the promised land in 8 vessels - ships as large as trees - did most of the only have one sailor? The women and children were each able to sail on their own across the Atlantic ocean on waves as large as mountains?

Originally Posted by Joel33

For years, most Mormons have believed that the Nephites and Lamanites rapidly intermarried with the natives that were already here in order to generate the numbers of people that are talked about in the Book of Mormon. I was even taught that in LDS-seminary when I was in High School and I graduated in 1992.


In the very next chapter they began to "begat sons and daughters" and "multiply" - not once mentioning intermarriage with the locals. The next few chapters goes on and on and on about them begat'ing sons and daughters and never mentioned other locals, probably because Joseph had already told us they were in a land no other men had ever been.

You're still re-gurgitating the official mormon line... think for yourself a bit and respond.


Originally Posted by Joel33

You know, I hadn't thought of this earlier, but, I was thinking last night and I realized the following. There is a second reason DNA evidence is irrelevant.

As I said, Lehi and Ishmael's families leave Israel in 600 B.C. and arrive here about 12 years later. while they are traveling Ishmael dies and shortly after their arrival Lehi dies. Lehi has six sons that are primarily discussed and two of them emerge as leaders of separate factions after his death. Nephi and his followers are called Nephites. Laman and his followers are called Lamanites. Laman is the unrighteous/rebellious son. Much like the Canaanites had a dark skin in the OT, the Lamanites are given a dark skin so that the Nephites will know not to intermarry with them. We see countless times in the OT that when Israelites intermarry with non-covenant people like Canaanites that the results are disastrous.

Over the many years the Book of Mormon covers, the Lamanites and Nephites obviously do intermarry. At times, the Nephites are the righteous group and at other times the Lamanites are the righteous group. In the end, nobody is really righteous except for a handful of Nephites who are exterminated by the Lamanites.

I tell you all this for one reason. The Lamanites had their skin color altered by God. Could this affect a person's DNA? I suppose it could. Then the Lamanites eradicated the Nephites - those who still would have had traces of Israelitish blood.


Ahh... never thought I'd read this anytime soon...

We're back to "dark skin is a curse". I thought the mormons were enlightened in 1978 with Hinckley's vision/premonition/whatever. Is there still some bigotry in mormon teachings you aren't telling us? Were the lamanites not as "wholesome and delightful" as the nephites? slap

That still shows an ignorance of basic principles of DNA study. Please read a bit of the mormon's ancestry.com site where they try to sell us on DNA testing and then get back to me.

Originally Posted by Joel33

Archeological evidence? If we accept the proposition that Lamanites and Nephites intermarried with others who were already here (and I do) then we have the archeological evidence.

Are there not ruins in Latin America? Do they not come from the ancient inhabitants of this continent? I believe that's much more than a "trace" of evidence.


So we have to believe one lie to be able to swallow another? "Ruins" in latin america do not point to anyone but mayans, incans, etc. Not to people from Israel or Europe.


- Allen [Linked Image]
- I don't need things, I need people - mb © 2002
Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #58137 01/04/08 09:19 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Allen,

Logic dictates that the burden of proof resides with you. You have to prove that there is no possibility of the existence of Nephites and Lamanites.

I merely have to prove reasonable doubt.

I think I've done that.

Quote

By my count, that's 14 - every one of them in the section you linked to and far from the exhaustive listing of all of them. I think maybe you got the ratios of lds::non-lds backwards. Either that or you were just plain lying.
Are we looking at the same article?

I linked to this page

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml#asia

He cites 159 sources. I counted them quickly and may have been off by a few, but the large preponderance of source material was not LDS.

Here, I'll post it all

Quote
Adcock, G.J., Dennis, E.S., Easteal, S., Huntley, G.A., Jermiin, L.S., Peacock, W.J., and Thorne, A., "Mitochondrial DNA Sequences in Ancient Australians: Implications for Modern Human Origins," Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA, 98(2): 537-542 (January 16, 2001). (Available online.)

Allison, M.J., Hossaini, A.A., Castro, N., Munziga, J., and Pezzia, A., "ABO Blood Groups in Peruvian Mummies, I. An Evaluation of Techniques," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 44(1): 55-61 (1976), as cited by Guthrie (2000/2001).

Allison, M.J., Hossaini, A.A., Munziga, J., and Fung, R., "ABO Blood Groups in Peruvian Mummies, II. Results of Agglutination-inhibition Technique," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 49(1): 139-142 (1978).

Anderson, S., et al., Nature, 290: 457 - 465 (1981).

Bailliet, G., et al., "Founder Mitochondrial Haplotypes in Amerindian Populations," American Journal of Human Genetics, 55(1): 27-33 (July 1994). (Available online.)

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Behar, B.M., et al., "Multiple Origins of Ashkenazi Levites: Y Chromosome Evidence for Both Near Eastern and European Ancestries," American Journal of Human Genetics, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Oct. 2003): 768-779. (available online in PDF or HTML formats.)

Berrett, William E., and Hunter, Milton R., et al., A Guide to the Study of the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City: Department of Education of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1938), p. 48, as cited by Smith, 1994, p. 267.

Bianchi, N.O., "Characterization of Ancestral and Derived Y-Chromosome Haplotypes of New World Native Populations," American Journal of Human Genetics, 63:1862-1871 (1998).

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Bonatto, S.L. and Salzano, F.M., "A Single and Early Migration for the Peopling of the Americas Supported by Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Data," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA, Vol. 94: 1866-1871 (1997b). (Available online.)

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Count again. and make sure we're looking at the same stuff.

Quote
Not even sure I'll count again, but of my list above, all but two is pre-2000. I'm inclined to think your counting here is just as bad as the previous example.
clearly your list of 14 is not as exhaustive as the actual list of source material that I just posted.


Quote
We're back to "dark skin is a curse". I thought the mormons were enlightened in 1978 with Hinckley's vision/premonition/whatever. Is there still some bigotry in mormon teachings you aren't telling us?
I didn't say that.

American Indians were never denied the priesthood, that's an entirely different issue. The Book of Mormon clearly explains the reason the Lamanites were given a dark skin.

2 Nephi 5:21, 23-24

Quote
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
• • •
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.


It is no different than the Lords commandment not to marry with Canaanites in the Old Testament.

Canaan was the fourth son of Ham, the son of Noah. It is widely accepted that the African race descends from Ham. The Lord is fairly clear in his instruction in the Old Testament that his covenant people are not to intermarry with Canaanites. This is the same thing that is stated in the verses I cite above, with respect to not "mixing" with the Lamanites.

It is no different than the OT and it happened to take place during the same time frame as the OT, hence they were under the same law, and commandment to not marry outside of the covenant. If you believe the Bible, you've accepted a very similar course of events to that in the Book of Mormon. It certainly doesn't make the entire Judeo-Christian world racist.

oh yeah, Hinckley wasn't the prophet at the time of the 1978 vision which extended the priesthood to all worthy males, it was President Spencer W. Kimball.

Quote
That's where you misunderstand DNA and genetics, either out of ignorance or as a desire to support your theories. Besides, the bom states they came to the promised land in 8 vessels - ships as large as trees - did most of the only have one sailor?
That's where you misunderstand the Book of Mormon... The people you are referring to is a brief account included in the Book of Mormon regarding a people known as the Jaredites who came to this continent long before the Nephites & Lamanites. Their civilization was destroyed by warfare and plague and the Nephites and Lamanites discovered their records. That's the 8 barges, and they all died prior to the Nephites & Lamanites.

The Nephites and Lamanites were two families on one boat.

Quote
In the very next chapter they began to "begat sons and daughters" and "multiply" - not once mentioning intermarriage with the locals.
does that prove they didn't? No. it simply proves the author didn't write about it.

As for the lineages that are recorded in the book it is recorded as father to son and so on, very little mention of the women, that's also consistent with Biblical lineages that are recorded.


As I said at the beginning, I've provided reasonable doubt for your claims. You've not provided definitive proof. Nor do I really think it's possible.

The arbiter of all truth is the only one who can answer this question.



Last edited by Joel33; 01/04/08 09:33 PM.

I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58141 01/05/08 12:31 AM
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Allen,

I've often worried that you make accusations against me like...

Quote
I think maybe you got the ratios of lds::non-lds backwards. Either that or you were just plain lying.
because you know that no one besides you or me will bother actually going to the link and counting.

That seems intellectually dishonest to me.

You don't need to try and discredit me to the rest of the audience here, everyone else already thinks Mormons are not Christians.

Your need to discredit me is unfounded. So if I were in your shoes, I would not set my personal ethics at risk to simply discredit someone who in the eyes of most here is already considered as wrong.

I didn't lie, perhaps I was slightly off in my counting (maybe 13 is too few maybe too many - admittedly, I counted it up in only a few minutes time and may have missed some), but if you'll look it over, you'll see that the ratio is much more non-LDS than it is LDS. You'll also see that a healthy number of these sources were published post 2000. I posted the list and wasted the space just for the sake of full disclosure so that your unfounded accusation could easily be shown as false.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58142 01/05/08 04:39 AM
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Your full disclosure was far from it - you were the one who thought the number of sources was important. It definitely didn't seem like we were reading the same site - the sources I posted were a portion of the ones he used throughout his text (using your link provided I scrolled up once and down twice, posting the references noted by lindsey), not a list of sources he put toward the bottom. You didn't include the ones he used throughout his text or the list of mormon references he put below your list of 'sources'. If you counted them in their entirety you'd see his use of lds references far outnumber any non-lds references tagged on the end.

This is getting tiresome, discussing this and you don't even read your own stuff before hitting copy/paste. If you actually read the link you posted you'd see all the mormon references, scripture and theology lindsey used to prove mormon scripture and theology. Thank you for correcting me on the timeline of mormon leaders and history, but it's obvious you don't read the stuff you link to, or you'd discuss it like you understood it, or at least pick different things to link to.

Joel, the way I see it the burden of proof lies with you. Maybe you don't see it, but mainstream Christianity sees the mormon faith as a cult, not any different than jehovah witnesses, branch davidians, moonies, whatever. We see the bom as a decent story at best, blasphemous more than likely, definitely heretical. As the person who runs this site my responsibilities include the discussion here and what the 'message' of the site is seen as. In our zealousness to be seen as tolerant I cannot forget that we serve different a different Jesus Christ. Mormons themselves say that. Mormons say they are the one true church, that all other churces are an abomination.

Quote

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

- Matthew 7:15-21

This discussion isn't personal, but I cannot and will not let you post whole FARMS pamphlets here without a challenge on their truthfulness and how it stands up against Biblical scripture. The burden of proof lies with you or anyone else who wants to say the bom is 'the most correct of books'.


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Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58143 01/05/08 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Joel33


Quote
We're back to "dark skin is a curse". I thought the mormons were enlightened in 1978 with Hinckley's vision/premonition/whatever. Is there still some bigotry in mormon teachings you aren't telling us?
I didn't say that.

American Indians were never denied the priesthood, that's an entirely different issue. The Book of Mormon clearly explains the reason the Lamanites were given a dark skin.

2 Nephi 5:21, 23-24

Quote
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
• • •
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.


It is no different than the Lords commandment not to marry with Canaanites in the Old Testament.

Canaan was the fourth son of Ham, the son of Noah. It is widely accepted that the African race descends from Ham. The Lord is fairly clear in his instruction in the Old Testament that his covenant people are not to intermarry with Canaanites. This is the same thing that is stated in the verses I cite above, with respect to not "mixing" with the Lamanites.

It is no different than the OT and it happened to take place during the same time frame as the OT, hence they were under the same law, and commandment to not marry outside of the covenant. If you believe the Bible, you've accepted a very similar course of events to that in the Book of Mormon. It certainly doesn't make the entire Judeo-Christian world racist.


I'm pretty sure you know I wasn't discussing American Indians - black people were denied the priesthood until 1978.

1978.

How long oh Lord?

In Biblical times Israelites were instructed to not intermarry with other races, those that did were outcasts. Jesus Himself reached across that divide with the woman at the well, the story of the good Samaritan, etc. Mormons didn't come around to the idea the God so loved the World until 1978.

ps: It wasn't just the "black canaanites" the Israelites were instructed to not mix with - it was the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites - were they afflicted with the blackness? rolleyes They were instructed to not intermarry because: "3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you."

God did not 'mark them' with black skin so the Israelites would know who they were. They were the people occupying the land God gave them, so their orders were to kill them all and take possession. Other people they came across along the way didn't get the same treatment.

See? Quite different from the "lazy, mischievous, black" people of the BOM. How racist can you get?

Back on subject - you are saying in one post that the DNA of the lamanites was lost due to 'mixing' and in another post state that lamanites were forbidden to 'mix'. Aside from the fact that y-chromosome and mitochondrial dna pass down 'un-mixed' through the father and mother (respectively), which is it? Did they mix or not?


- Allen [Linked Image]
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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #58146 01/05/08 04:02 PM
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Quote
Maybe you don't see it, but mainstream Christianity sees the mormon faith as a cult, not any different than jehovah witnesses, branch davidians, moonies, whatever.
You don't think I know this? Where have you been?

With respect to the Lindsay link --

I admitted upfront that he was an LDS apologist, that doesn't change the fact that the vast number of sources he cites are not LDS in that article. Nor does it change the fact that the sources he cites (the non-LDS ones) paint a clear picture that the DNA evidence is inconclusive with respect to the ancestry of Amerindians. The LDS sources he cites to illustrate the LDS viewpoint and how it ties in with the research done by the scientists he cites. Not to make a case, but rather to show how the Book of Mormon ties in to real science.

Quote
I'm pretty sure you know I wasn't discussing American Indians - black people were denied the priesthood until 1978.
I'm also pretty sure the curse discussed in the Book of Mormon has nothing to do with the Priesthood ban, since that only dealt with people of African descent - and I believe that we can all agree that there weren't any Africans in the Book of Mormon. If you'd like to discuss the Priesthood ban, then go ahead, but don't pretend that it stems from the curse on the Lamanites referenced in the Book of Mormon. Two separate issues.

Quote
Your full disclosure was far from it - you were the one who thought the number of sources was important. It definitely didn't seem like we were reading the same site - the sources I posted were a portion of the ones he used throughout his text (using your link provided I scrolled up once and down twice, posting the references noted by lindsey), not a list of sources he put toward the bottom.You didn't include the ones he used throughout his text or the list of mormon references he put below your list of 'sources'. If you counted them in their entirety you'd see his use of lds references far outnumber any non-lds references tagged on the end.
Have you ever written a research paper? All the sources he cites in the article are referenced at the end in the "Literature Cited" section.

I guess like many mainstream Christians, you feel like it's allowable to distort the truth when trying to keep people away from the Mormons. I've been through it before, but I'm being completely honest and anyone who actually visits the site I posted and reads will see what I'm talking about.

As I said, of course LDS sources are cited. They are cited, to show how their arguments fit within the accepted science, not to prove the science or prove the Book of Mormon, but rather to give a full picture, unlike the partial picture you keep presenting.

Quote
Back on subject - you are saying in one post that the DNA of the lamanites was lost due to 'mixing' and in another post state that lamanites were forbidden to 'mix'. Aside from the fact that y-chromosome and mitochondrial dna pass down 'un-mixed' through the father and mother (respectively), which is it? Did they mix or not?
No, I'm saying that there are so many reasons that Israelitish DNA is no longer easily traceable that this entire discussion is pointless.

The Nephites remained in their natural state and were commmanded not to intermarry with Lamanites, Lamanites recieved no such commandment and eventually wiped out the Nephites. Make sense now?

Add to that the possibility that the Lord very likely altered their DNA when their appearance was altered and you have plenty of reasons why DNA evidence is irrelevant.

If you're tired of a competent Mormon posting on your site, then simply ban me and erase the thread. That's no different than the folks in Missouri in the 1800's who simply tried to erase the Mormons.

If the truth will prevail, and the LDS church don't have it, then you have nothing to fear, you can stop distorting the message of the LDS church and the content of external websites I post to. Have enough confidence in your own beliefs to not sacrifice you personal ethics in the quest to disprove Mormonism.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58147 01/05/08 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Joel33
[quote]Have enough confidence in your own beliefs to not sacrifice you personal ethics in the quest to disprove Mormonism.


Hi Joel,

I don't think that Allen lacks any confidence in his faith; what I do think is that someone who may be a very new Christian may go to that site and be confused by what they read there.

As you've stated, you are well aware that Christians do not regard Mormons as Christian belivers. Allen, by virtue of hosting this site, is held accountable to protect his "flock" here. In so he is responsible not cause any believer to stumble...whether it be by his own posting or by the posting of another.

I think he is called to refute any belief and or literature that does not line up with the Bible.

I don't think you would do any less if this was your Mormon site.


When I don't measure up to much in this life, I'm a treasure in the arms of Christ.
Re: Mormons [Re: embie] #58149 01/05/08 05:38 PM
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The point is he lies.

He lies because he knows no one else will actually go to the site and read it for themselves. so he feels free to misrepresent what is said there.

If his faith is perfect and will withstand the test of Mormonism, why lie?

If this were my Mormon site, I wouldn't lie. And in fact, it's not my site, and I'm still not lying.

Last edited by Joel33; 01/05/08 07:22 PM.

I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58151 01/05/08 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Joel33
The point is he lies.

He lies because he knows no one else will actually go to the site and read it for themselves. so he feels free to misrepresent what is said there.


You still have YET to read your own link, if you did you'd see what I did. All you have ever done for the last 4 years is copy and paste - you have yet to think for yourself.

The link you posted was to 130 pages of mormon propaganda. It went to a section entitled:
Asiatic Origins Taught by the Book of Mormon?

I *know* you have yet to look at the section you linked to or you would see what I saw. 1 screen up and 2 screens down is nothing but citations to other mormon propaganda. I counted 14 references in those 3 screens and all were mormon-related, none were non-lds. none.

If I am lying, prove it. Or shut up.

All is besides the point - just another attempt to dodge straight questions and veer into non-issues like the number of citations on a review of literature.

Start with this one, I admit it's a side issue to dna discussion and I wouldn't post it if I didn't read it with my own eyes while looking at the dna literature. I also notice you skipped it above in haste to respond to the number of citations in someone else's copy/paste of propaganda:

Mormons do not serve the same Jesus we do and they freely admit it. They also believe they are the one true church in the world.

What is your opinion Joel?


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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #58152 01/05/08 10:41 PM
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Have you ever written a research paper? All the sources he cites in the article are referenced at the end in the "Literature Cited" section.


Yes, and this one is freshman college level. Again, if you'd read it you'd see the preponderance of 'evidence' presented is mormon propaganda. There are non-lds citations, but they're out of context and do not support the discussion. Like your other posts, I've proven that repeatedly...

Originally Posted by Joel33

If you're tired of a competent Mormon posting on your site, then simply ban me and erase the thread. That's no different than the folks in Missouri in the 1800's who simply tried to erase the Mormons.


sniff sniff... that was very touching Joel.

You bringing up something from the 1800's reminds me of how long it took the same mormons to admit that all discrimination is bad - "1978" ring a bell? The "curse of black skin" mean anything to you? That's still ongoing in the bom. Changing that one entry didn't fix the others still found within.

If your posting is what passes for "competent mormon" then I will ban every other mormon who signs up here because we definitely don't need worse. slap


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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #58167 01/07/08 01:20 PM
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You still have YET to read your own link, if you did you'd see what I did. All you have ever done for the last 4 years is copy and paste - you have yet to think for yourself.

The link you posted was to 130 pages of mormon propaganda. It went to a section entitled:
Asiatic Origins Taught by the Book of Mormon?


I think i see the heart of this misunderstanding now. The link I posted took you to a specific section of a web page that I intended for someone to read the entirety of. Not the entire site mind you, just the argument on that entire page.

Here's what I said in fact...

Quote
That being said, just read this website, admittedly it was compiled by a well known LDS apologist. However, the sources he cites throughout are not LDS.

Good luck, it is a long read, informative nonetheless - the basic conclusion is that DNA evidence provides insight but is inconclusive with regards to defining exactly who populated our continent anciently.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml#asia

As I said, the author is most certainly biased, but the sources he cites are most certainly not. He even discusses this information on lineage X and addresses your most recent objection.


I most certainly was not intending to have you merely read the section on Asiatic Origins as discussed in the Book of Mormon alone. rather, I was hoping you'd scroll up to the top and read the whole thing, as I did.

Quote
I *know* you have yet to look at the section you linked to or you would see what I saw. 1 screen up and 2 screens down is nothing but citations to other mormon propaganda. I counted 14 references in those 3 screens and all were mormon-related, none were non-lds. none.


one screen up, one includes several references to the Book of Mormon and one reference to an LDS apologist "Sorenson" who I don't really like. However that section one screen up is an informative paragraph about what exactly a Lamanite is according to the Book of Mormon, not an argument about Scientific DNA evidence - so frankly references to the Book of Mormon and other LDS authors regarding Lamanites is hardly unexpected or biased, rather just information about what it is we believe. Merely background for the greater argument.

one screen down is a section titled "What Does the DNA Evidence Show?" The first citation on that screen...

Richards and McCauley 2001 looking down to the Sources Cited section reveals that this is actually

Richards, M. and Macaulay, V., "The Mitochondrial Gene Tree Comes of Age," American Journal of Human Genetics, 68(6): 1315-1320 (June 2001). Clearly a non-LDS source

Next citation on that screen...

(S. Anderson et al., 1981). not LDS

Next screen down, first citation...

Greenberg et al. (1986) not LDS

Next

Merriwether et al. (1995) not LDS

Next

Kolman et al., 1996 not LDS

Dillehay (2003 - available online), not LDS

Karafet et al. (1999) Not LDS

Merriwether et al. (1995) again, not LDS

Santos et al. (1999) Not LDS

and that's it, one screen up and two screens down.


Quote
Mormons do not serve the same Jesus we do and they freely admit it. They also believe they are the one true church in the world.


Jesus - we believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of Mankind. We believe that he died for us and suffered for our sins both on the cross and in the Garden of Gethsemane. We believe he was resurrected on the third day so that all mankind may be resurrected as well.

Is that really different?

The differences non-Mormons will point to typically revolve around our disagreement with the Nicean Creed doctrine of the Trinity. But lot's of Christians disagree about that, so what's the Big Deal.

as for the one true church? Yes, we believe that in our church God has restored the entirety of the truth. This is not to say that other churches merely preach falsehoods for they don't. Rather it is to say that the fulness of the Gospel can only be found in the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When have I ever shied away fromt that?

Quote
The "curse of black skin" mean anything to you? That's still ongoing in the bom. Changing that one entry didn't fix the others still found within.
Allen, The issue of Blacks not recieving the priesthood and the issue of the Lamanite curse are two separate things. There are Lamanites in the Book of Mormon that have the Priesthood. I've always felt the Lamanite curse was less the "dark skin" and more the fact that they were separated from the Gospel due to their own rebellion. The Dark skin was merely a reminder for the Nephites not to intermarry with them.

The Blacks and Priesthood. This issue was resolved in 1978. Interestingly enough, Joseph Smith himself actually ordained black folks to the Priesthood. The actual Doctrine on Blacks and the Priesthood appears to have been a confusing one down through the years in the LDS church. And to be honest, much of it may have been traced to our church's turbulent history in the early days of our existence. Fortunately, today this is a settled doctrine. I hesitate to post to another external website about it, but recently read a website by African American Mormons regarding the history of the Priesthood ban. I found it illuminating. However, it may take me some time to find the link again. When I find it I will post it.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58170 01/07/08 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Joel33
Quote
Mormons do not serve the same Jesus we do and they freely admit it. They also believe they are the one true church in the world.


Jesus - we believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of Mankind. We believe that he died for us and suffered for our sins both on the cross and in the Garden of Gethsemane. We believe he was resurrected on the third day so that all mankind may be resurrected as well.

Is that really different?

The differences non-Mormons will point to typically revolve around our disagreement with the Nicean Creed doctrine of the Trinity. But lot's of Christians disagree about that, so what's the Big Deal.

as for the one true church? Yes, we believe that in our church God has restored the entirety of the truth. This is not to say that other churches merely preach falsehoods for they don't. Rather it is to say that the fulness of the Gospel can only be found in the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When have I ever shied away fromt that?


I believe your people went a step or 3 beyond that:

Quote

President Hinckley, like all Mormon Presidents before him, is revered by the LDS people as the mouthpiece of God and referred to as “prophet, seer and revelator” for the Church. When Hinckley addressed a gathering of 6,600 young Mormon missionaries assembled in Paris in 1998, he was speaking in this capacity.

In their account of the event, the Mormon-owned news agency, The Deseret News, reported, "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.' (Hinckley said) ‘No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness (sic) of Times...In this dispensation, the Lord has declared that this Church (Mormon) is the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth."


I can post the full text from the church news, but I believe it's copyrighted and not sure how they'd like me posting it. The above excerpt can be found on many websites tho.

Hinckley is saying mormons and only mormons are the true and living church, that only mormons believe in the true Jesus.

Where, in your personal opinion, does that leave the mainstream church? We believe the bom is a fairy tale at best, blasphemous most likely. That Joseph Smith was seriously misguided at best and a tool of satan most likely. Mormons, while very nice people in general, are probably going to hell (tho I am sure we'll agree that God alone will sort that out). So where does that leave mainstream Christianity in a competent mormon's personal opinion? Are we going to hell? After all, we reject the jesus of the BOM...

As for the rest of your post, I'll look at it later, stuff as simple as screen resolution must play a part because I didn't see all those non-lds references when I read your link. After seeing what I saw I didn't feel the need to read further.


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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #58172 01/07/08 06:46 PM
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Give me the Link Allen, What he said there certainly isn't putting forth any different Doctrine, merely it is stating that Christ has revealed himself in our day to modern Prophets, that statement in and of itself doesn't say anything about the nature of Christ. I'd love to read the article so that I can comment further.

As for the only true church stuff, yes, we believe that the fulness of the Gospel only resides in the LDS church. This is why we send missionaries everywhere, even to Christian countries. We don't want anyone to reject the truths they already embrace, but rather hope that through the LDS church they can enhance their understanding and embrace the entirety of the "truth" about the Gospel.

Quote
So where does that leave mainstream Christianity in a competent mormon's personal opinion? Are we going to hell? After all, we reject the jesus of the BOM...
we've been down this road before...

Mormons don't believe in Hell the same way mainstream Christians do and we have a different view of the Afterlife.

In short we believe that when we die we go to the Spirit World which is divided between what is called "Spirit Prison" and "Paradise". (1 Peter 3:18-19)Spirit Prison can also be considered Hell. We believe that the Gospel will be preached and is being preached in Spirit Prison and that people we be able to embrace the gospel that they may have rejected in this life due to ignorance or prejudice or bias. (1 Peter 4:6) When Christ returns and mankind are resurrected you will receive your ultimate glory in either the Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms which are equated to the Glory of the Sun, the Glory of the Moon or the Glory of the Stars. (1 Corinthians 15:40-44). We also believe that there will be a small set of individuals resurrected who will receive no glory because they have received the witness of the Holy Ghost and rejected it and these are "Sons of Perdition" like Judas. That's probably the closest we'd get to a permanent condition of being in Hell. Otherwise all mankind will be resurrected to the Glory which they deserve based on their faithfulness in Christ.

So the short answer is no, I don't believe you or any non-LDS people will go to Hell.

Quote

As for the rest of your post, I'll look at it later, stuff as simple as screen resolution must play a part because I didn't see all those non-lds references when I read your link
I use firefox as my browser and the text size is set to "normal". But that's what I found one screen up and two screens down.

And I do apologize for not being more clear in what I was expecting to link to.

I should have posted this link...

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml

Which takes a person to the top of that page with the table of contents. Indeed, the introductory paragraphs are largely full of LDS sources but that is simply setting the stage for the last two-thirds of the page where the scientific evidence is presented, and LDS sources are largely absent.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58173 01/07/08 06:58 PM
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I did find a link to an AP interview the Gordon B. Hinckley (GBH), it was on the DesNews site but it is an AP interview

http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/cqcgi_plus/@plus.env?CQ_SESSION_KEY=XUPDZCXEMZDO&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=8&CQ_TEXT_MAIN=YES

I also found a quote that is similar to the one you cited on the Church's website and when taken in context makes a little more sense.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.j...10VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

ETA

I found it...

http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/cqcgi_plus/@plus.env?CQ_SESSION_KEY=XUPDZCXEMZDO&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=1&CQ_TEXT_MAIN=YES


Honestly, I think the main differences that exist between Mormons and the accepted Christian world with respect to our belief in Christ stem largely from the nature of the Godhead as defined by the Nicaean Creed and accepted by many Christian churches.

The problem with this is that I've met several Christians who belong to acceptable Christian churches that disagree with the Nicaean Creed.

What I'm saying is there is as much dispute about the nature of God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost within Christendom as there is between the LDS Church and Christendom in general.

So what's the big deal?

Last edited by Joel33; 01/07/08 07:06 PM.

I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58175 01/07/08 08:59 PM
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crap, I just realized the DesNews links didn't work


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58177 01/07/08 10:41 PM
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Can't get the link to work

you can find it on the DesNews.com archive page searching in 2004 under an article called the Christ Continuum.


Last edited by Joel33; 01/07/08 10:42 PM.

I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58178 01/08/08 02:22 AM
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Joel, the Big Deal is that Mormonism surrounds itself with a tremendous amount of ritualism that is steeped in Masonry and arguably has great similarities to Satanism. Whether Satanism came first or Mormonism came first , is cloudy. But this is largely the reason we consider Mormonism "different" than a presby or a four square or a Methodist or whatever.

The ritualism, I will never get past. You call it sacred, we call it secret. We have been through it before. But it is a bit odd to us who consider ourselves familiar with God and what He wants of us. Our testimony and our salvation and our worship and our oath to Jesus is public, nothing in secret, other than our prayer time and our giving of offerings and hopefully our good deeds to fellow man. (although this one is a mess in mainstream televangelism).
what you say in mormonism...
Jesus and satan are brothers. pure blsaphemy.
Your own "heavens and kingdoms."
The afterlife.
praying for the dead to be saved. twisted irreconciled scripture interpretation.
Misinterpretation (or radically different) of scriptures.
You dont believe the current word of God to be infallible. As if God could not preserve His word.
ANd on and on.

Mormonism claims they are the one true church and then seek to be accepted by "us" in the mainstream world. i dont get it.

Personally, I believe incrementally your Peoples leadership would like to intertwine with Christianity in order to begin the furthering of watering down truth with untruth. So eventually it isnt recognizable. It is going on now in some sects (presby USA) as well as many others.
CAtholicism is a mess.
The world says we are intolerant and arrogant.
The media persecutes christians (and mormons and jews and anyone else about God in heaven).

If the Devil can continue his course of defaming christianity using Mormons claiming they are christian he will certainly do so.
Heck, the devil has kooks wanting to get on a space ship calling themselves children of the one true God.
He is trying to kill anything that claims Christ of the Bible. Your christ is not the same one we are serving. You may call him so...but then you begin adding all this other stuff, that He isnt or God isnt or History isnt, or the Heavens and afterlife arent. Or hell. then come the ceremonies and man it just is way too far off center to be called christian.

WAlks like a mormon, smells like a mormon talks like a mormon...must be...not a christian, but a mormon.

This day and age "walks like a christian, talks like a christian, and smells like a christian DOES NOT MEAN must be a christian.

The waters are cloudy and truth is what everyone wants it to be. INcluding mormons and even many christians sad to say.

Prosperity preaching, feel good preaching, no altar calls after services...makes me want to puke and probably our God as well.
I hate lukewarm and watered down christianity. Not the person but the weak message of lukewarm. Get on - get off or get out. But dont preach Christ and live like the devil.

WHew...i believe i just ranted. sorry. no i am not sorry...
off on a tangent....but i speak truth.


Psalm 91
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58179 01/08/08 05:21 AM
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Quote Echo:

Why not teach law(good works) and then Gospel(good news) seperately?

Quote Joel33:
Because they are the same. If you have faith you will do good works, they cannot be divided.


Acts 20:24 "Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace."

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."


Acts calls the gospel the message of God's grace.
Romans seperates "law" and "grace"

The two can't be mixed. They may both have a purpose but there is no law in the gospel and no gospel in the law. There is no grace in the law no law in grace.

How would you define Grace?

Hugs



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Re: Mormons [Re: Echo] #58186 01/08/08 04:35 PM
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Jesus and satan are brothers. pure blsaphemy.
absolutely not. At least not Biblically. You certainly have a right to feel that way, but don't pretend that it is an indefensible position.

Quote
Your own "heavens and kingdoms."
what do you think it means to be "heirs/joint-heirs with Christ"? Romans 8:17

Quote
praying for the dead to be saved.
We don't do that, you misunderstand our doctrine on redeeming the dead. And there is historical and Biblical evidence that the way we actually do this was practiced by the early Christian Church.


Quote

WAlks like a mormon, smells like a mormon talks like a mormon...must be...not a christian, but a mormon.
to be honest, personally, I'm fine with that.

The reason we seek acceptance is not to water down Christian doctrine, but rather to fill out the holes that are evident due to the Apostacy following the death of the early Apostles.

I don't want to be considered Christian in the sense that I have to surrender beliefs that are near and dear to me. What I rather think, is that the definition of Christian should be "one who believes in Christ". Does that have to mean that we all think we are all saved? No.

But if we could simply all agree that we believe in Christ and the various issues that this unites us on (Abortion, Euthanasia, Gay Marriage) we could accomplish much more.

My frustration is at its height these days due largely to the political situation. the single best candidate on the Republican side is not going to be the Republican candidate due largely to anti-Mormon bias and outright anti-Mormon propaganda attacks that have been levied against him from within his own party.

Huckabee is altogether too vulnerable to attacks on his record to beat Hilary or Obama. McCain is perceived as too old. And Guiliani is too Democrat to win as a Republican. And yet the base of the Republican party is rejecting the one candidate who is intelligent enough to take on Obama's empty rhetoric and tough enough to fend of the Clinton political machine. We will not have a Republican in the White House because Mitt is the only one who can possibly beat the other two, yet he won't even be the Republican Nominee.

Brilliant move to reject a guy who has a shot at winning and actually will support traditional Christian values, simply because of the intolerance int he Christian Right toward Mormons.

Now I've ranted.

Quote
Prosperity preaching, feel good preaching, no altar calls after services...makes me want to puke and probably our God as well.
I hate lukewarm and watered down christianity. Not the person but the weak message of lukewarm. Get on - get off or get out. But dont preach Christ and live like the devil.
Then you would love Mormonism for it is not weak.

Members are expected to not only believe in their faith, but actually abide by it. I live in a community where there is not alcoholism, let alone alcohol. There is no abuse. People pay a tithe of 10% of their gross income simply because they believe.

As for the Temple ceremonies, I've said before and I'll say it again. If you could actually see them, or participate in them, you would laugh at what you think now is a sinister ceremony cloaked in darkness.

Frankly, the temple ceremony is far less ceremonial or mysterious than your typical Catholic Mass. It's fairly straight-forward. And not much symbolism at all.

Echo,

you're completely off-base

The "law" that the New Testament often speaks of, and particularly Paul with his Pharisaical background. is the Law of Moses.

You realize that one of the largest doctrinal problems among the early Christian church was whether or not it was still necessary for them to abide by the law of Moses.

When Paul says, "ye are not under law," that's what he's talking about. He's reminding folks that the law was fulfilled in Christ and we now live under grace.

That doesn't mean that works and faith can be or ever should be separated.



I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #58190 01/08/08 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Joel33
Quote
Jesus and satan are brothers. pure blsaphemy.
absolutely not. At least not Biblically. You certainly have a right to feel that way, but don't pretend that it is an indefensible position.


“He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind.”
(Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p.15)

The Bible teaches that Jesus is divine and not angelic and that Lucifer (Satan) is angelic and not divine. Instead, Mormonism proclaims that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man …” and “… You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you …” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345, 348). Mormonism teaches that both Jesus and Lucifer became “gods,” just as the central LDS teaching proclaims: “As Man is God once was and as God is Man may become.” Can it be any clearer? The “Jesus” taught in Mormonism is not the Christian Jesus. Period.


Originally Posted by Joel33

My frustration is at its height these days due largely to the political situation. the single best candidate on the Republican side is not going to be the Republican candidate due largely to anti-Mormon bias and outright anti-Mormon propaganda attacks that have been levied against him from within his own party.

Huckabee is altogether too vulnerable to attacks on his record to beat Hilary or Obama. McCain is perceived as too old. And Guiliani is too Democrat to win as a Republican. And yet the base of the Republican party is rejecting the one candidate who is intelligent enough to take on Obama's empty rhetoric and tough enough to fend of the Clinton political machine. We will not have a Republican in the White House because Mitt is the only one who can possibly beat the other two, yet he won't even be the Republican Nominee.

Brilliant move to reject a guy who has a shot at winning and actually will support traditional Christian values, simply because of the intolerance int he Christian Right toward Mormons.

Now I've ranted.


That's your opinion on Romney - regarding attacks on Huckabee's record, the same could be said of Romney's positions. If you think Romney is having a tough time now, it's nothing compared to the going's on if he wins the primaries. I'm more interested in seeing what kind of Pres/VP ticket each side puts up, that should be interesting. Can't do anything about either except vote early and often wink

We've still a long way to go to the election, even the primaries are just beginning... closer scrutiny will bring a lot to light.


- Allen [Linked Image]
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