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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #57844 11/29/07 05:17 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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I'd have preferred "accidentally" letting him "escape" and then shooting him in the back.



I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #57846 11/29/07 10:21 PM
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He tried to hang himself at one point...

Speaking of nut jobs - I noticed this week Mike Huckabee was on the front page of the Rolling Stones rag called "The GOP's Weirdest Nut Job" - looks like another round endorsment - I'll probably vote for him now thumbsup


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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #57881 12/04/07 04:57 PM
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So Mitt is going to try and give the Mormon version of the JFK speech about how Mitt's Mormonism will inform his presidency, should he be elected.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/02/politics/main3564183.shtml?source=RSSattr=Politics_3564183


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #57885 12/05/07 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Allen
Originally Posted by Joel33
Mitt Romney won the Iowa Republican Party Straw Poll.

Any thoughts?


Originally Posted by embie
Wasn't he expected to win?


Yes, he was... he and his campaign spent millions in a state several of his major competitors really haven't done much of anything in yet. He should have won as well as he did. smile The poll did cause one guy to drop out, which is ok... if you can't handle it at this point we really don't want you in the White House smile

Mitt is only polling around 9% among like repub voters so far, well behind Guilliani and a couple others. It will be interesting to see if those change over the next 3-4 months. Some say Fred Thompson and possibly Gingrich will draw some of the more conservative vote towards them if/when they get in the race later this year.


Looks like the numbers are beginning to change in Iowa... Huckabee leads Romney now 29% to 24%. Jan 3 should be interesting smile


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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #57896 12/06/07 07:10 PM
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that's why Mitt gave the speech today. to try and resurrect his chances in Iowa.
Quote

Text of the speech.

Text of Romney's speech on religion
December 6th, 2007 @ 7:51am

By The Associated Press

Text of Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney's speech Thursday on faith at the George Bush Presidential Library and Museum in College Station, Texas.

ROMNEY: Thank you, Mr. President for your kind introduction.

It is an honor to be here today. This is an inspiring place because of you and the first lady and because of the film that's exhibited across the way in the presidential library. For those who have not seen it, it shows the president as a young pilot, shot down during the Second World War, being rescued from his life raft by the crew of an American submarine. It's a moving reminder that when America has faced challenge and peril, Americans rise to the occasion, willing to risk their very lives to defend freedom and preserve our nation. We're in your debt, Mr. President. Thank you very, very much.

Mr. President, your generation rose to the occasion, first to defeat fascism and then to vanquish the Soviet Union. You left us, your children, a free and strong America. It is why we call yours the greatest generation. It's now my generation's turn. How we respond to today's challenges will define our generation. And it will determine what kind of America we will leave our children, and theirs.

America faces a new generation of challenges. Radical violent Islam seeks to destroy us. An emerging China endeavors to surpass our economic leadership. And we're troubled at home by government overspending, overuse of foreign oil, and the breakdown of the family.

Over the last year, we've embarked on a national debate on how best to preserve American leadership. Today, I wish to address a topic which I believe is fundamental to America's greatness: our religious liberty. I'll also offer perspectives on how my own faith would inform my presidency, if I were elected.

There are some who may feel that religion is not a matter to be seriously considered in the context of the weighty threats that face us. If so, they are at odds with the nation's founders, for they, when our nation faced its greatest peril, sought the blessings of the Creator. And further, they discovered the essential connection between the survival of a free land and the protection of religious freedom. In John Adams' words: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. ... Our Constitution," he said, "was made for a moral and religious people."

Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.

Given our grand tradition of religious tolerance and liberty, some wonder whether there are any questions regarding an aspiring candidate's religion that are appropriate. I believe there are. And I'll answer them today.

Almost 50 years ago another candidate from Massachusetts explained that he was an American running for president, not a Catholic running for president. Like him, I am an American running for president. I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.

Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin.

As governor, I tried to do the right as best I knew it, serving the law and answering to the Constitution. I did not confuse the particular teachings of my church with the obligations of the office and of the Constitution -- and of course, I would not do so as president. I will put no doctrine of any church above the plain duties of the office and the sovereign authority of the law.

As a young man, Lincoln described what he called America's "political religion" -- the commitment to defend the rule of law and the Constitution. When I place my hand on the Bible and take the oath of office, that oath becomes my highest promise to God. If I am fortunate to become your president, I will serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause and no one interest. A president must serve only the common cause of the people of the United States.

There are some for whom these commitments are not enough. They would prefer it if I would simply distance myself from my religion, say that it's more a tradition than my personal conviction, or disavow one or another of its precepts. That I will not do. I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers. I will be true to them and to my beliefs.

Some believe that such a confession of my faith will sink my candidacy. If they are right, so be it. But I think they underestimate the American people. Americans do not respect respecters -- excuse me -- believers of convenience.

Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs, even to gain the world. There is one fundamental question about which I often am asked. What do I believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the savior of mankind. My church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths. Each religion has its own unique doctrines and history. These are not bases for criticism but rather a test of our tolerance. Religious tolerance would be a shallow principle indeed if it were reserved only for faiths with which we agree.

There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes president he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths.

I believe that every faith I have encountered draws its adherents closer to God. And in every faith I have come to know, there are features I wish were in my own: I love the profound ceremony of the Catholic Mass, the approachability of God in the prayers of the evangelicals, the tenderness of spirit among the Pentecostals, the confident independence of the Lutherans, the ancient traditions of the Jews, unchanged through the ages, and the commitment to frequent prayer of the Muslims. As I travel across the country and see our towns and cities, I am always moved by the many houses of worship with their steeples, all pointing to Heaven, reminding us of the source of life's blessings.

It's important to recognize that while differences in theology exist between the churches in America, we share a common creed of moral convictions. And where the affairs of our nation are concerned, it's usually a sound rule to focus on the latter, on the great moral principles that urge us all on a common course. Whether it was the cause of abolition, or civil rights, or the right to life itself, no movement of conscience can succeed in America that cannot speak to the convictions of religious people.

We separate church and state affairs in this country, and for good reason. No religion should dictate to the state nor should the state interfere with the free practice of religion. But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It's as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America -- the religion of secularism. They are wrong.

The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion, but they did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation "under God" and in God, we do indeed trust.

We should acknowledge the Creator as did the Founders in ceremony and word. He should remain on our currency, in our pledge, in the teaching of our history, and during the holiday season, nativity scenes and menorahs should be welcome in our public places. Our greatness would not long endure without judges who respect the foundation of faith upon which our constitution rests. I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from 'the God who gave us liberty.'

Nor would I separate us from our religious heritage. Perhaps the most important question to ask a person of faith who seeks a political office, is this: Does he share these American values -- the equality of human kind, the obligation to serve one another and a steadfast commitment to liberty?

They are not unique to any one denomination. They belong to the great moral inheritance we hold in common. They're the firm ground on which Americans of different faiths meet and stand as a nation, united.

We believe that every single human being is a child of God -- we're all part of the human family. The conviction of the inherent and inalienable worth of every life is still the most revolutionary political proposition ever advanced. John Adams put it that we are "thrown into the world all equal and alike."

The consequence of our common humanity is our responsibility to one another, to our fellow Americans foremost, but also to every child of God. It's an obligation which is fulfilled by Americans every day, here and across the globe, without regard to creed or race or nationality.

Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government. No people in the -- No people in the history of the world have sacrificed as much for liberty. The lives of hundreds of thousands of America's sons and daughters were laid down during the last century to preserve freedom, for us and for freedom loving people throughout the world. America took nothing from that century's terrible wars -- no land from Germany or Japan or Korea, no treasure, no oath of fealty. America's resolve in the defense of liberty has been tested time and again. It has not been found wanting, nor must it ever be. America must never falter in holding high the banner of freedom.

These American values, this great moral heritage, is shared and lived in my religion as it is in yours. I was taught in my home to honor God and love my neighbor. I saw my father march with Martin Luther King. I saw my parents provide compassionate care to others, in personal ways to people nearby, and in just as consequential ways in leading national volunteer movements. I am moved by the Lord's words: "For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat. I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink. I was a stranger, and ye took me in. Naked, and ye clothed me."

My faith is grounded on these truths. You can witness them in Ann and my marriage and in our family. We're a long way from perfect and we have surely stumbled along the way, but our aspirations, our values, are the self-same as those from the other faiths that stand upon this common foundation. And these convictions will indeed inform my presidency.

Today's generations of Americans have always known religious liberty. Perhaps we forget the long and arduous path our nation's forebears took to achieve it. They came here from England to seek freedom of religion. But upon finding it for themselves, they at first denied it to others. Because of their diverse beliefs, Ann Hutchinson was exiled from Massachusetts Bay, Roger Williams founded Rhode Island, and two centuries later, Brigham Young set out for the West. Americans were unable to accommodate their commitment to their own faith with an appreciation for the convictions of others to different faiths. In this, they were very much like those of the European nations they had left.

It was in Philadelphia that our founding fathers defined a revolutionary vision of liberty, grounded on self evident truths about the equality of all, and the inalienable rights with which each is endowed by his Creator.

We cherish these sacred rights, and secure them in our Constitutional order. Foremost do we protect religious liberty, not as a matter of policy but as a matter of right. There will be no established church, and we are guaranteed the free exercise of our religion.

I'm not sure that we fully appreciate the profound implications of our tradition of religious liberty. I've visited many of the magnificent cathedrals in Europe. They are so inspired, so grand and so empty. Raised up over generations, long ago, so many of the cathedrals now stand as the postcard backdrop to societies just too busy or too 'enlightened' to venture inside and kneel in prayer. The establishment of state religions in Europe did no favor to Europe's churches. And though you will find many people of strong faith there, the churches themselves seem to be withering away.

Infinitely worse is the other extreme, the creed of conversion by conquest: violent jihad, murder as martyrdom, killing Christians, Jews, and Muslims with equal indifference. These radical Islamists do their preaching not by reason or example, but in the coercion of minds and the shedding of blood. We face no greater danger today than theocratic tyranny, and the boundless suffering these states and groups could inflict if given the chance.

The diversity of our cultural expression, and the vibrancy of our religious dialogue, has kept America in the forefront of civilized nations even as others regard religious freedom as something to be destroyed.

In such a world, we can be deeply thankful that we live in a land where reason and religion are friends and allies in the cause of liberty, joined against the evils and dangers of the day. And you can be -- You can be certain of this: Any believer in religious freedom, any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty, has a friend and ally in me. And so it is for hundreds of millions of our countrymen: We do not insist on a single strain of religion -- rather, we welcome our nation's symphony of faith.

Recall the early days of the first Continental Congress in Philadelphia, during the fall of 1774. With Boston occupied by British troops, there were rumors of imminent hostilities and fears of an impending war. In this time of peril, someone suggested that they pray. But there were objections. "They were too divided in religious sentiment," what with Episcopalians and Quakers, Anabaptists and Congregationalists, Presbyterians and Catholics.

Then Sam Adams rose, and said he would hear a prayer from anyone of piety and good character, as long as they were a patriot.

And so together they prayed, and together they fought, and together, by the grace of God, they founded this great nation.

And in that spirit, let us give thanks to the divine "author of liberty." And together, let us pray that this land may always be blessed, "with freedom's holy light."

God bless this great land, the United States of America.



I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #57897 12/07/07 01:44 AM
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I had to log in to say that I thought that was an excellent speech. I'm not so sure that conservative evangelicals will suddenly be swayed by it though.

I heard an aside by a reporter discussing Mitt and Mike H. It sometimes comes down to a matter of perception. He said "When you look at Mitt Romney he looks like a 'Ken doll'. Too perfect, too good to be true. When you look at Huckabee, you just see a nice guy. He's got a face that you can trust." I can kinda see his point.

Jan 3 will be interesting. smile


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Re: Mormons [Re: embie] #57900 12/07/07 09:37 PM
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I've heard that

but after 8 years of GWB as the "decider" on all issues pertaining to "strategery" it might be nice to have some perfection in the white house.



I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #57902 12/08/07 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Joel33
I've heard that

but after 8 years of GWB as the "decider" on all issues pertaining to "strategery" it might be nice to have some perfection in the white house.



rolleyes That comment makes no sense, what does taking a swipe at Bush have to do with a Ken doll running for president? Besides, Mitt has a lot more to worry about than straight white teeth and a tan:

Right now Huckabee leads Romney 2-1 in Iowa, this after Romney spent millions campaigning there. Huckabee also leads the Republican field in recent national polls.

He can't run to the right of Huckabee without appearing a little nuts, he can't run to the left of Giuliani without being democrat, McCain and Thompson have the center plugged and he's trailing all 4 in the national polls... after the initial hard charge the next 3-6 months are going to be long for Romney, he's going to have to hope for a VP bid.


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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #57917 12/08/07 08:00 PM
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because it was a joke using two of the better known bush malapropisms.



I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #57918 12/09/07 02:37 AM
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As one of those evangelical Christians, I, of course, am a Bush fan. I don't think that everything he's decidered on was possibly the best decision, but I think he made the best decision he could considering all the factors. That being said, my sis-in-law is NOT a Bush fan. As a result I bought her a 2008 calendar with a year's worth of GW's pronunciation faux pas's over the last two terms. I think she'll get a kick out of it. laugh


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Re: Mormons [Re: embie] #57929 12/12/07 03:57 PM
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So for some bizarro reason, Huckabee has decided it is appropriate to attack Mitt's religion.

I don't understand his motivation considering that he is ahead in the polls.

Is it just simply the natural result of his ingrained southern baptist anti-Mormon leanings? Or is he feeling like that's a legitimate means of shoring up his lead in Iowa.

very confusing.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695235433,00.html

And yes Allen, I'm linking to a source in the Deseret News, which you've called me on before. Please take the time to note that the Deseret News picked up the story off the AP. So it wouldn't be correct to characterize it as a biased story.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #57931 12/12/07 04:14 PM
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My thinking is that it was an attempt to clarify Mitt's statement that "Mormons are Christians". Christians from every denomination that I am aware of don't believe that Jesus and satan were brothers. The elders of the church may have already addressed that question but Mitt didn't. And I doubt that he will.

"The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-filled brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind." Milton R. Hunter, Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.

Joel, do you believe that Jesus and satan were brothers?


When I don't measure up to much in this life, I'm a treasure in the arms of Christ.
Re: Mormons [Re: embie] #57934 12/12/07 04:55 PM
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AS the article states we believe that all beings were created by our heavenly father. We believe that Lucifer is a fallen creation of God. God did not create Lucifer to be evil but rather Lucifer chose Evil as his course and pursued it.

How does this in any way diminish the divinity of Christ?

Why is that an issue when defining who our savior is?

Where is the Biblical proof that Jesus and Lucifer can't be brothers?

How does this belief in any way shape whether or not someone is a Christian?

Believing the Christ and the Devil were created by God, and therefore spiritually his sons, doesn't say anything with respect to the core doctrines that make Christ the Savior.

I don't personally believe it makes sense to set up a list of standards for defining whether or not a person is Christian. But since it's been done, I would submit that all that should be required is a belief and conviction that Jesus Christ is...

... the son of God.
... savior of Mankind from sin and death
... the firstfruits of the resurrection
... still living.

That's it.



I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #57936 12/13/07 01:29 AM
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You sure danced around that one tongue

At least 50 words, 4 counter-questions, some juking and jiving with side-issues and still didn't give a straight answer.

"The article, to be published in Sunday's New York Times Magazine, says Huckabee asked the question after saying he believes Mormonism is a religion but doesn't know much about it."

Doesn't sound like an attack; when asked if Huckabee thought mormonism was a cult:

"I'm just not going to go off into evaluating other people's doctrines and faiths. I think that is absolutely not a role for a president," the former Arkansas governor said.

While he said he respects "anybody who practices his faith," Huckabee said that what other people believe ó he named Republican rivals Romney, John McCain, Rudy Giuliani and Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton ó "is theirs to explain, not mine, and I'm not going to."

He also resisted wading into theology when pressed to explain why some evangelicals don't view the Mormon faith as a Christian denomination."

It just sounds like the New York Times is trying to stir it up a bit... I would imagine we'll be seeing a lot more of the same in the next 30 days leading up to the elections.


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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #57942 12/13/07 07:35 AM
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"Where is the Biblical proof that Jesus and Lucifer can't be brothers?

Where is the Biblical proof that they are?

Lucifer was an angel created by God. Jesus is God. Remember... Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

I'm hard pressed to see Jesus and satan on the same level, i.e. brothers.


When I don't measure up to much in this life, I'm a treasure in the arms of Christ.
Re: Mormons [Re: embie] #57946 12/13/07 01:44 PM
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UHHH...."ONLY begotten son..." remember that part ? satan would love for people to believe he is equal to Jesus. ie...brother.
He is an angel. not all angels are good.he is the embodiment of eveil. the father of lies. the antithesis of Jesus, GOd, Holy Spirit. Literally anti-christ. He cannot be brother. He is not Son.
Created being. stops there;.


Psalm 91
Re: Mormons [Re: NABSTER] #57950 12/13/07 04:46 PM
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Allen, the short answer is yes. I thought that was clear, my bad.

Only Begotten, refers to in the flesh.

And that Mormons believe whole heartedly. what we're talking about is the creation of our spirits.

Being Brothers, does not equate to being equals. Only a moron would think that Satan and Jesus being spiritually linked as brothers would imply equality.

Embie - we take issue with the Catholic version of the Trinity and actually believe God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost to be three separate beings.

We believe God is the father of all beings that have been created - that would make me the brother, spiritually speaking, of Jesus as well.

Allen, Huckabee is an ordained baptist minister and preached as such for over 12 years. He was a speaker at the Southern Baptist National convention that was held in Salt Lake in 1997 or 1998 and at that convention the delegates were sent out en masse to convert the Heathen Mormons in Utah. The SBC also produced a wildly anti-Mormon video to be distributed as part of that conference. I guarantee that since it is the default position of the SBC that Mormonism is a cult, that Huckabee is also dodging the question of what he thinks about Mormonism.

the "Jesus and Satan are brothers" line is one of the oldest sensationalization tactics that is used by anti-Mormons. It's meaningless.

Jesus and Satan being brothers does in no way make Satan divine or Jesus Evil. It's just a sensational red herring used to distract people from discussing important doctrinal issues.

If someone can tell me where the Bible defines a Christian as anything other than a believer in Christ (Chapter & Verse) who acts on those beliefs and it is manifest in their life, then great.

But the standards by which Mormons are judged to be non-Christians are man made.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #57954 12/13/07 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Joel33
But the standards by which Mormons are judged to be non-Christians are man made.


I have to agree with you there.


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Re: Mormons [Re: Allen] #57955 12/13/07 09:57 PM
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That would be the Book of Mormon, not the bogus non-biblical "Christian or not Christian" litmus test, which I was referring to.

So very clever of you however, I imagine you're very proud of yourself.

The Book of Mormon is every bit true scripture. I know it.

Last edited by Joel33; 12/13/07 09:58 PM.

I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otheró This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons [Re: Joel33] #57956 12/13/07 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Joel33

The Book of Mormon is every bit true scripture. I know it.


I understand you guys are changing that too?

In the following words in the last sentence of the second paragraph: "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

But the new version will say, "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians."

Soooo... why the change?


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