from wels doctrinal beliefs:

We believe that already before the world was created, God chose those individuals whom he would in time convert through the gospel of Christ and preserve in faith to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4-6; Romans 8:29,30). This election to faith and salvation in no way was caused by anything in people but shows how completely salvation is by grace alone (Romans 11:5,6).

nabster inserts comment here:
the Bible says God is no respecter of persons, he treats equally all men. if He predestined some for Hell it also means, "that none should perish " is in contradiction as well.

back to wels...


We believe that at the moment of death, the souls of those who believe in Christ go immediately to be with the Lord in the joy of heaven because of the atoning work of Christ (Luke 23:43). The souls of those who do not believe in Christ go to an eternity of misery in hell (Luke 16:22-24).

We reject every teaching that people in any way contribute to their salvation. We reject the belief that people with their own power can cooperate in their conversion or make a decision for Christ (John 15:16).
We reject the belief that those who are converted were less resistant to God’s grace than those who remain unconverted. We reject all efforts to present faith as a condition people must fulfill to complete their justification. We reject all attempts of sinners to justify themselves before God.

end

echo, we will never agree on any of this...

After reading the WELs site as well about assembly of GOd, they have placed statements in their Q and A that are blatantly false.

They state that we (AOG) believe we can attain in this life perfect holy life. We do not teach this. WE do teach holiness, and striving to live holy.

WELS stated we believe in salvation AFter baptism of HOly spirit, we do not.

INtersetingly enough however, WELS states the Word of GOd is infallable and complete and with out error. Take it literally when literal and figuratively when figurative.

However when question about baptism in the HOly spirit is asnwered,WELS ignores ACts 19:2

Paul asked believers, "did you recv the Holy Spirit when you believed? So they said to him we have not so much as heard whether there is a holy spirit.
paul goes to say, john baptised with water and repentance, then they were baptised in the name of JEsus, Paul laid hands upon them and they RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SPOKE WITH OTHER TONGUES.
this is merely evidence of this Baptism. all 5 examples in scripture reference spoke with other tongues when baptism of holy spirit is used.(one example doesnt , but it references physical trait we believe was tongues)

matthew 3:11 "i indeed baptise you with water unto repentance, but HE who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry,HE WILL BAPTISE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE"(ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS OMIT THE WORD FIRE).

PAUL LATEr SPEAKS IN SEVERAL INSTANCES OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES.
the Bible says clearly it our way of prayer where the spirit intercedes on our behalf when we know not what to pray.

it also says when we pray in tongues WE SPEAK MYSTERIES UNTO GOD. god understands - the devil does not. he cannot understand or do battle against our prayers when he doesnt know what we are praying. it is a powerful prayer language.
The scripture also says this gift of the Baptism of the holy spirit is for all "who are afar off" as many as the Lord will call.

It didnt end with the aPostles as WELS states. WELS just says it "isnt Normative for christians today".

SO they abandon scripture when it isnt normative.

How about this one,
acts 3:19
Repent, therefor and BE CONVERTED, that your sins may be blotted out..."


repent. an act of an individual.



about tongues...

acts 2:4 Tongues are a real language.
acts 4:31 the holy spirit gives us boldness to confess christ openly.
acts 8 :14-20 simon sees them baptised in the bholy ghost -witnesses something physical "he saw" and wanted the "gift of God"
intersetingly verse 16 says ," For as yet HE(the holy spirit) had not yet fallen upon them> They had only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus"
17 says, " and they laid hands on them and they recvd the holy spirit".

acts 10:44-48
peter speaking, all who heard were baptised in the holy ghost (not apostles mind you) they speak with other tongues at the point the gift is given...

and verse 47 - hold on to your horses...

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptised who have RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT just as we have?


This is baptism after conversion.

Now regarding baptism in the holy spirit, no where does it state the gifts of the holy spirit come to an end anywhere (until Jesus retruns) and if GOd is the same yesterday today and forever- then the gifts are for us today. and the bible says we must seek thsese gifts. These gifts are mentioned in the book of corinthians - 12 .

verese one says "concerning spritual gifts i do not want you to be ignorant..."

take that one as you wish...

wisdom, knowledge, faith, healings, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, different kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues.

why dont WELS (and many others) include these things in their doctrine when they state the Bible as infallible incorruptible and complete?

You know why the AOG is growing? Because it is truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Are there some yahoos out there getting "in the flesh and doing unscirptural nonsense within the AOG" yes and they are in every denomination. and they are not representative of our (or any other ) denomination.
We believe the whole Bible. We dont omit acts chapter 2 for convenience sake...

WHHHHEEEEWWWWWWWW!

man am i rantiing or what!?!?!?!
I got a little tense when i saw the WELS info on what I BELIEVE, and it wasnt completely factual.

I wish, everyone knew the gift of Baptism in the Holy SPirit as in acts chapter 2 becasue your life will never be the same. It is an awesome , and truly faith building and faith keeping experience. It is real and it is for " all who are afar off , as many as the Lord our God will call."

I love Jesus Christ with all my heart. I will sing his praises, and I will confess his name before men. I have a boldness that comes from the HOly Spirit. Not arrogant, but confident in what i believe, and I know why i believe what I do.

now if the holy spirit could just help my typing skills...

nabs

You have to read the whole page. Below what you have posted from WELS it says this:

From WELS:

>>>>>
““We reject the false and blasphemous conclusion that those who are lost were predestined, or elected, by God to damnation, for God wants all people to be saved (1Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9).” [Article IV, paragraph 10]

Please note that the Wisconsin Synod teaches predestination to salvation alone. Predestination to damnation is rejected. Predestination is based on God’s grace alone. There was nothing in any human being that would cause God to choose him. The Wisconsin Synod teaches universal atonement (Christ died for the sins of all). God also desires the salvation of every sinner. We do not try to rationalize why some are saved and not others in a way that is satisfying to human reason. We believe that if a person is saved it is all to God’s credit. If a person is lost, it is completely that person’s fault.”
>>>>>>>>

Here is the link:

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=10&cuItem_itemID=5678




>>>>>>>

9. Sanctification
Sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God (Romans 12:1,2; 1
Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 13:12). Scriptures teach a life of "holiness without which no man shall see the
Lord" (Hebrews 12:14). By the power of the Holy Ghost we are able to obey the command: "Be ye holy, for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:15,16).
Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, and by faith reckoning daily upon the fact of that union, and by offering every faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:1-11,13; 8:1,2,13; Galatians 2:20; Philippians 2:12,13; 1 Peter
1:5).
>>>>>>
Here is the link: http://www.ag.org/top/about/recommended_ch_bylaws.pdf

See page 6



Sorry, I couldn’t find this one in the “search” at WELS. If you don’t provide a link, you can’t say that WELS says this. At least provide their exact wording so I can find it in the “search”. Without doing that, its merely heresy.



Yes. Do you believe this also?

When the bible talks literally about the Lords supper, it says “ This IS my body…This IS my blood” It doesn’t say: “this is symbolic of my body” “this is symbolic of my blood”

And when the bible talks literally about Baptism. The Bible says: “…this baptism that now saves you”
It does not say: “this baptism is a symbol of your saving yourself by choosing me”

.

No WELS doesn’t ignore it at all. These men were Baptized by John the Baptist so they didn’t yet receive the Holy Spirit. When we are baptized in the name of the father, son and HS, we receive the gift of the HS (Acts 2:38)

Again, in our water baptism we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


WELS says that if a church body teaches tongues, we can know if it is true tongues or some other phenomena by seeing if other things the church teaches is true or not. For example, if we find false teachings within the AOG of any sort, then those tongues spoken there are not from God. The reason is because God wouldn’t give the gift of tongues as a sign to a false teaching church because God hates false teaching.



The Holy Spirit works repentance into us therefore it is not the act of the individual, it is an act of the Holy Spirit.

John 16: “7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;



Yes a real human language. For example if God gave me the gift of tongues, I could speak Chinese so that someone Chinese could understand me. Tongues isn’t some language not known to man that only God understands.

Yes, this is true, I have experienced it myself.


I agree.

I agree. That is because they received the Holy Spirit when they heard the message and then receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism. That is because “the message = Baptism”





I am not doubting that God could still give the gift of tongues if he chooses. But since AOG has many false teachings, I am not required to believe in the tongues they preach either. That’s all I am saying.





There really isn’t any reason why God would continue the gifts of tongues, remember that biblical tongues aren’t some God known language not of the earth. Tongues was the gift to speak in languages that others spoke. Since the Bible is now complete, it is no longer necessary to have some of these gifts. For example, prophecy about the future is no longer necessary because the Bible is now finished. The apostles had special gifts because that gave evidence that God had chosen them and that they were indeed his apostles. 2 Corinthians 12:12 “The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.”
We no longer have apostles, we only have disciples. We still have some of the gifts given though. They haven’t all expired.

But lets not get off topic on tongues right now. Lets keep talking about Baptism so we don't get side tracked. Could you go back and boldy address my last post on Baptism?

Hugs

WE CAN GO BACK TO BAPTISM...
BUT WHAT DOES CORINTHIANS SAY...SPEAKING OF GIT\FTS GIVEN...
IT SAYS DIFFERENT KINDS OF TONGUES...THERE ARE 3.
PERSONAL PRAYER LANGUAGE, TONGUES FOR PROPHECY AND EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH, IT MUST BE FOLLOWED BY INTERPRETATION AND THEN THERE IS A REAL LANGUAGE OFTEN USED BY MISSIONARIES IN FOREIGN LANDS.
(DARN CAPS) i am not shouting here.
You call our interpretation of scripture false teaching. We can support everything we teach throughout with scripture references.
We justify our interpretation using other scripture to strengthen the interpretation. We dont jump to conclusions or rationalize, or twist or take out of context. We believe in the same Jesus you do, the same saviour, the same truths. The only place we differ, is inside the four walls of churches and in doctrines that are not really critical to the kingdom. We teach salvation through Jesus. as do WELS. We teach in fact many of the same doctrines you state in fullness. We differ on a few that dont change our salvation or our mission to spread the gospel.

Baptism, im scripture is mentioned several times in salvation and d\several times without. How do we justify whether it is critical in someone being saved? Church of Christ it is what saves. The act of baptism saving someone from sin, without the heart being involved does not line up with what God says about the heart.

there are many:

psalm 7:10
My defence [is] of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

psalm 26:2
Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

psalm 44:21
Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

and new test examples:
matt 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

john 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

acts 5:4
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee

acts 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

i dont understnad how WELS can say Baptism saves, regardless of the heart, when these scriptures (and multiple others) define how GOd looks at the individual. especialy this romans verse.
Having water placed upon you by a man, does not save. That is false teaching.
Salvation comes from the heart and the purpose of one's heart.
It is in fact a decision.

how do you reconcile this?
john's baptism was the baptism of WATER and repentance. WHich you do, but call it grace.( i agree with grace, just not that water and the act saves-especially if the heart does not render belief)

acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


that they should believe...this is personal echo. it isnt passive.
we differ on this.
an infant, who has not willfully sinned in the heart, is going to heaven , baptised or not.

david, losing his son in the book of samuel, shows this.

In Hebrews the bible speaks about how the apostles were witnesses to world about the message of salvation. And it explains that because God wanted to confirm to the world that these men were indeed his apostles so he gave them "gifts" distributed according to his will. The reason he gave them these gifts is so that the world would know they were indeed his apostles. But now we have the Bible ,those gifts are no longer needed to prove that the apostles were his witnesses. The completed Bible is now God's own testimony of himself:

Hebrews 2:1-4 "1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."



Adults believe first and then are baptized.
Infants are batized and given the gift of faith in their Baptism.

Acts 2:38 says "This promise is for you and your children" (The promise being the gift of the Holy Spirit given in Baptism)
Now if there was an age restriction on Baptism, it needed to be mentioned here or anywhere in the NT but it is not. To ASSUME that infants don't need to be baptized is to add to God's word. Jesus said: "Go and baptize ALL nations...." If infants were excluded, this verse should have said so or their should be a verse somewhere in the NT that does exclude them. So to ASSUME what you are saying is to add to scripture something that it doesn't say. That is adding to God's word. Adding to God's word is forbidden and is sin.
If we take the words in both passages I shared with you, "Literally" as we should and as we are both taught to do, then Baptism is for all children.
Because children are included in "ALL" nations. Chilren are also included in "this promise is for you and your children". Nothing is more clear than that.

That said, I think the problem is that you interpret Baptism entirely different than I do and that makes this a bit more complicated as a result. So we need to gain a better understanding of each others interpretation of Baptism.



God is the one responsible for changing the heart, not us. That is why we can baptize our infants and trust God to do what only he is capable of doing.
Lets not forget that WELS says that Baptism saves because the Bible says that Baptism saves.
WELS Baptizes children because the bible says this promise is for you and your children.
Lets not forget the numerous times that WHOLE HOUSEHOLDS were baptized. Never was there a household where little ones were excluded, it is never mentioned. They didn't have birth control in that day either and households were very large!
Lets not forget that a decision or choice on our part robs God of the glory only he deserves.

The NT has no single verse that says baptism should be postponed.
The Bible teaches that God chooses us, we don't choose him.
So that means that since God is the one choosing, then he chose to baptize infants and give them faith. After all, he is the one who tells us to baptize all nations.

Infants can believe. John the Baptist believed while in the womb.
Yet I wouldn't go so far as to say that all infants believe in the womb because John may have been a special case, I don't know, but the point is clear that God can work faith into infants. How he does that exactly, the bible doesn't tell us, but we simply trust that he can. After the ressurection, God chose to use Baptism as the means of grace in which he creates faith in infants. But John the Baptist is evidence that God can work faith into infants and infants can believe.

Titus 3:5 "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

Notice in the above verse that he saves us through our Baptism.
Baptism is a washing of rebirth! That means that in Baptism we are born again. The image of God that we lost in the fall in renewed in Baptism. The Holy Spirit therefore works in and through Baptism.

Because you were taught that we have a decision to make in conversion, it is natural to then think that Baptism should be postponed until one is able to make that desicion. So you need to back up and see that we don't make a decision in conversion.
John tells us that being born of God is not a human decision. You need to take that literally. Even if it makes no sense to you, it is true, you must lay down the idol of "reasoning" and bow down to scripture and let God mold and shape your reasoning instead of letting your reasoning shape and mold God's word.
If we make a decision or choose God, we get the glory for that instead of God. God must get ALL the glory.

Again, take this literally: "You did not choose me, I have chosen you" Say to yourself: "I did not choose God, I did not decide for Christ" and then go from there and read scripture with that in mind. Then God will shape and mold your reasoning.


I don't doubt that David's infant went to heaven before he was circumsized. I don't doubt that if my infant had died the day before Baptism that it would still go to heaven, however, when God commands us to Baptise ALL nations and tells us Baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit is for our children, then to keep my children from it is in reality, despising God's word. I would never want to do that. In your case, because you have different ideas about things, I don't think you are guilty of despising God's word, but I could be wrong.

Hugs

THE WORD OF GOD IS THE VERY ESSENCE OF LIFE FOR ME , ECHO.
serious question.
why is evangelical lutheran synod of a certain state, like wisconsin?
are you guys any different than other e.l.s. from other states?
really curious only.

again from WELS WEBSITE>>>COPY AND PASTE FROM "THIS WE BELIEVE" DOCUMENT


We believe that already before the world was created, God chose those individuals whom he would in time convert through the gospel of Christ and preserve in faith to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4-6; Romans 8:29,30). This election to faith and salvation in no way was caused by anything in people but shows how completely salvation is by grace alone (Romans 11:5,6).

6. We believe that at the moment of death, the souls of those who believe in Christ go immediately to be with the Lord in the joy of heaven because of the atoning work of Christ (Luke 23:43). The souls of those who do not believe in Christ go to an eternity of misery in hell (Luke 16:22-24).

7. We reject every teaching that people in any way contribute to their salvation. We reject the belief that people with their own power can cooperate in their conversion or make a decision for Christ (John 15:16). We reject the belief that those who are converted were less resistant to God’s grace than those who remain unconverted. We reject all efforts to present faith as a condition people must fulfill to complete their justification. We reject all attempts of sinners to justify themselves before God.


We reject the false and blasphemous conclusion that those who are lost were predestined, or elected, by God to damnation, for God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).

end-

so which is it? GOd chose all He would save from first paragraph above, or he didnt?
How do you justify "that none should perish" and God chose all who would be saved? but those who werent saved go to hell. That means God did not choose them.

Dont suggest either that all who are in Hell "fell from Grace".

I don't doubt that my friend, not at all.



WELS was founded in Wisconsin but has churchs in many countries. Wisconsin is the home office.

Wels is NOT in fellowship with most of the other Lutheran synods. Basically only a few points of doctrine seperate us although acceptance of gay marriage in some Lutheran bodies is making the divide even larger.



God's will is that none should perish. But men can resist the Holy Spirit's attempt to bring them into faith. God draws all men unto himself but he doesn't force people to remain in his love. That's the point.

Hugs

BUT your doctrine states God chooses whom he will save...I still cant reconcile those two doctrines above.

Okay, I think I see your misunderstanding. Let me see if I do.

The Gospel is for everyone, God doesn't predestine anyone to damnation, men themselves are responsible for this.

God wants all men to be saved but men always have the freedom to reject him. God showers grace on all men.

God forknew that some would hear the gospel and believe and would remain in his love. He also knew that men have full opportunity to reject him.

While we may have to have god's love forced upon us so that we see him for what he is, and so that our eyes are opened to his awesome love, we are in no way forced to remain in his love.
Love can never be forced. We can't be forced to love God back.


It is like this:

I buy you a vase of flowers and set it on your table as my gift to you. You didn’t choose that I should put them there; you didn’t decide that I should give them to you. I just gave them to you. They were already yours because I put them on your table. You simply received them. So receive isn’t active, it is passive. Whereas “choice” or “decision” is active suggesting that you decided that I should give you the flowers. You didn’t choose or decide but you still do have the opportunity to take the flowers and throw them in the garbage.

When we hear the gospel we learn that we are already standing in God's love, in God's grace. Jesus said: "It is finished".
He didn't say: "It will be finished as soon as you decide"

When we hear the gospel of God's grace, we don't stand as an outsider trying to get into God's grace by our decision or choice. But rather, we see that we have been in God's grace all along but we didn't know it and therefore we were rejecting it and pushing it away!

We don't choose to come into the family of God. But rather,
We hear how God has already made us his family and we remain in it. It is entirely passive.

Jesus said it was finished and it was finished at the cross.
We have only to come to realize it was finished and give up our battle against it.

It is so comforting to know that God's grace isn't dependant on our decision or choice. Whenever we are pointed to look inward to our decision, faith will be shaken because we are sinful and fickle people and our emotions go up and down.

God wants us to be secure in his love without trusting in our fickle emotions and sinfulness. He doesn't want us trust in wether or not we chose him, he wants us to know that he has chosen us! How comforting is that when we are feeling insecure! God doesn't want us doubting our salvation!

The cross brings certainty and so do Jesus' own words: "It is finished" bring certainty, looking inward into sinful and fickle hearts always brings uncertainty!

God wants the best for us.
Hugs!

YOU KEEP GIVING ME FLOWERS...
on my table...you broke in to my house....
yer creepin me out there Echo...

My wife thinks I am buying flowers though , cuz i keep tellin her their from me.
So keep em comin', but leave em on porch will ya???

ROFLOL, You put a much needed smile on my face and laughter in my heart today Nab. Thanks. I really needed that today.