Faith or works


Question:

I am having trouble understanding why salvation by faith “without” works is important. I know this is a very important Lutheran issue, but I am confused. Here is the way I see the two views:

1. Holy Spirit causes faith and [the] person does good works and then is saved.

2. Holy Spirit causes faith and the person is saved and then does good works.

In both cases, the result is a person with faith who does good works. What I don't understand is why it's important. I do understand that it was important to Luther because he felt he never could do enough works, but many people don't feel this way. As long as they do some works, that's enough. So, I have two questions. The first is whether my reasoning is correct about the two steps. Secondly, and most importantly, why is this important?

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Answer:

Thanks for putting your finger on what may be the most important question of all. Actually, there are many more views than just the two you mention. Some believe that we are saved by good works, period. For them, faith in Jesus as Savior is nice, but not absolutely necessary. Others believe that we must start the process by trying to do good works, but we won’t be able to do enough. That’s where God’s grace in Christ “kicks in” and takes us the rest of the way. Others believe that God’s grace gets us started, but then it’s up to us to complete the “salvation process” by doing good works (This is basically your “option #1” above). Still others believe that the one good work that we can do is to invite Jesus into our heart. They believe that no other good works will save us, but this one will.

That said, you still make a good point. All possible views of the way of salvation can be reduced to just two. That’s because all the views listed in the paragraph above have something fundamental in common. They all make our salvation depend on something we do. Whether the good works are supposed to be done before, after, or apart from our believing in Jesus as Savior really makes no difference. Mixing salvation by grace with salvation by works always yields salvation by works, just as mixing milk and poison always gives you poisoned milk, or multiplying a negative and a positive number always yields a negative. There are only two ways of salvation: trust in God’s grace to do it all, or rely on your own ability to do enough good works (See Galatians 2:16, “"16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."
Romans 4:4-5, “ "4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans11:6, 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace etc.). No compromise between the two ways is possible.

Why is this important? First, understand that how many good works someone “feels” that he or she has done or can do has no importance at all. The only thing that matters is how many good works God demands, and God demands absolute perfection (Matthew 5:48 48 “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." ). What Luther recognized about himself is true of all of us. None of us has or can live the perfectly righteous life that God demands (Romans 3:9-20 "9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15"Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16ruin and misery mark their ways, 17and the way of peace they do not know." 18"There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Romans 3: 23, "23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," etc.). But depending on our good works to save us, even a little, obligates us to do the impossible—i.e., to keep God’s whole Law perfectly (Galatians 3:10 "10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
,Galatians 5:2-4 "2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." , etc.) In other words, to depend on our own good works to save us, even partially, is essentially to throw our salvation away. It’s like refusing to let a helicopter carry us across a canyon because we would rather try flapping our arms and flying across. Whether we try to fly all the way across, or only part of the way, the result will be the same. [we end up crashing without reaching the other side]

There are other reasons why this matter is important. If our good works can achieve salvation for us, even a little bit, then Christ died for nothing (Galatians 2:21 "21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" ). To trust in our own works to save us, even a little bit, is to rob God of the glory he deserves for accomplishing all of our salvation from beginning to end. Perhaps worst of all, it destroys the certainty of our salvation that God wants us to have. If our salvation depends on us, even a little, it immediately becomes uncertain. But if it depends 100% on God--and it does--then we can be absolutely sure it will get done.

apparently they had to believe on their own account.

Then in that scenario how is God glorified

how can the Gospel be for every one, yet not everyone have it.

SO IN SUMMARY, you have absolutely nothing to do with your salvation because God chose you. When he chose you , were you even yet born?
when He chose you, did you resist him awhile and then recieve Him?
when you were a 6 yr old child, chosen by GOd, were you yet saved?
HOw about 2 yr old?
an infant?
When did God's choosing you become "savation"?
Was it at birth, before birth?
If you were saved before birth, then scripture lies, it says we must be BORN AGAIN in order to be saved>
SO if you weren't saved prioor to birth, when?
ANd it is was "post birth(almost typed "aftebirth"...yuck)
then you had something to do with it. in your mind soul heart spirit, or something you came to a realization you were saved. so you then began living like it. There was a beginning to your salvation and you had a mental/spiritual defining moment when you said, "i choose to be a christian".

GOd does not have puppets on strings acting only the way He makes them.

better define or support your doctrine.once again, "born of human decision" is speaking of PHYSICAL BIRTH not spiritual.

this verse directly contradicts WELS position on our doing nothing to find salvation.
ROmans 10:9
"for if you confess with your mouth the LORD JESUS and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

While I support much of what you say about God's amazing grace, i cannot say, i have nothing to do with my own salvation coming to existence. Scripture plainly says we have to choose.

We are "born again" through the gospel in word and sacrament.

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION. I AM MOST INTERESTED. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SACRAMENT?




Before conversion we have no free will to choose God.
After conversion we have our free will restored. We can choose to do things God wants us to do or we can choose not to do them.

SO ALL ARE SAVED AND MANY TURN AWAY??? WHEN DOES A CHILD BECOME BORN AGAIN?

The passage I took that from cleary means born again into God's family.

YES IT DOES, BUT IT IS SPEAKING OF SPIRITUAL BIRTH AS COMPARED TO PHYSICAL BIRTH,FOR CALRITY, WHICH AT THAT TIME, THE PEOPLE NEEDED EXPLANATION. JOHN WAS TELLING OF CHRIST. PEOPLE KNEW HIM NOT. IT IS LIKE THE MAN WHO ASKED JESUS, HOW CAN A MAN BE BORN AGAIN, OUT OF THE WOMB? ( I PARAPHRASE HERE).



No contradiction, just a misunderstanding on your part.
Once we are born again, we then confess Jesus with our heart. This is because since we are born again, we now have the ability to do such a thing.

YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS, ECHO. AND IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL. THE WORD SAYS OVER AND OVER TO CONFESS, TO ACCEPT, TO RECEIVE...

HERE IS THE GREEK FOR THE WORD RECEIVE USED IN 1 JOHN 12 - THE VERSE IMMEDIATLEY PRECEDING THE VERSE YOU CITE AS "NOT BORN OF HUMAN DECISION"...

GREEK "LAMBANO" - IT CLEARLY DEINFES ACTION.
1) to take

a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it

1) to take up a thing to be carried

2) to take upon one's self

b) to take in order to carry away

1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away

c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own

1) to claim, procure, for one's self

a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant

2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend

3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud

4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self

5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain

6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)

d) to take

1) to admit, receive

2) to receive what is offered

3) not to refuse or reject

4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,

a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something

e) to take, to choose, select

f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience

2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get ba

END GREEK-

Scripture nowhere says we have to choose.

You look at the word "recieving" as something we do instead of looking at it as something we get.

YES BECAUSE THE GREEK SAYS SO, AND IT WAS WRITTEN WITH THAT INTENT.

Hugs

YES HUS MY DEAR ECHO - I HAVE TREMENDOUS RESPECT FOR YOUR DOCTRINAL BELIEF AND WILLINGNESS TO BANTER IN APOLOGETICS, IT KEEPS ONE IN THE WORD AND KNOWING WHY THEY BELIEVE WHAT THEY DO.
TOODLES.

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION. I AM MOST INTERESTED. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SACRAMENT?

SO ALL ARE SAVED AND MANY TURN AWAY??? WHEN DOES A CHILD BECOME BORN AGAIN?

YES IT DOES, BUT IT IS SPEAKING OF SPIRITUAL BIRTH AS COMPARED TO PHYSICAL BIRTH,FOR CALRITY, WHICH AT THAT TIME, THE PEOPLE NEEDED EXPLANATION. JOHN WAS TELLING OF CHRIST. PEOPLE KNEW HIM NOT. IT IS LIKE THE MAN WHO ASKED JESUS, HOW CAN A MAN BE BORN AGAIN, OUT OF THE WOMB? ( I PARAPHRASE HERE).

YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS, ECHO. AND IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL. THE WORD SAYS OVER AND OVER TO CONFESS, TO ACCEPT, TO RECEIVE...

YES BECAUSE THE GREEK SAYS SO, AND IT WAS WRITTEN WITH THAT INTENT.

ARE INFANTS, accountable to God?

Where does the scripture talk about the sacrament of communion having anything to do with one's salvation?

and really if something as intangible as faith is a "work" how can something physical like infant baptism or the sacrament of communion not be???

i feel like i am listening to a different language when i hear you define some of these words.

acts 2:38 says, "repent, and let every one of you be baptised..."
infants can do this???

it says REPENT.

verse 39 says it is to "...your children and as many..." it is speaking of the promise of the Holy Spirit - after repentance.

need i remind you of this little gem..."FAITH COMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING , BY THE WoRD OF GOD."

Faith does not come by passive receiving of Baptism... an outward symbolic ritual of new birth.

i just read some info on infant baptism from WELS site and it is subtly taking scripture intended one way and using it literally another to support its "position".