Question and Answer taken from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Website.

www.wels.net

I don't deserve it, didn't earn it and cannot pay it back........



I would only challenge that the "answerer" above did not discount that faith comes from the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that faith is "given" by the Spirit. I believe that we are prepared and called by the Spirit when the time comes but the faith must be ours and a concious decision by us. (many people call this a "work" it is not)

Anything we do is a "work". That would include faith being something we do instead of faith being a gift.


Faith and grace are gifts:

Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—..."


We "keep" and "nourish" the gift of faith once it is given.

We don't have a "decision" to make. We didn't decide to be born by our natural parents, we don't decide to be born of God.

John 1:12-13 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

The moment "faith" becomes something we do, salvation can become uncertain.
If we "decide" it also becomes something we do, salvation then can become uncertain.

your verse used: john 1:12-13 says,"TO THOSE WHO BELIEVED..." apparently they had to believe on their own account. at least they had to accept that which God had imparted unto them.freely, yes, but they had to receive it by faith.drawn by the spirit , yes, chosen of God, yes, but they had to receive it. call it work or not doesnt matter...we have a part and it is called belief in the form of Faith.
That verse is speaking of our regeneration. Becoming CHILDREN of God. And it uses the example of humanly birth and natural birth (man is called flesh and blood)contrasted to spiritual birth through faith in Jesus.(borne of God)

I really think I agree with you, because Grace is what our whole salvation revolves around.
but faith isnt a work, IMHO. It is spiritual not physical.
Works are tangible things, Faith isnt tangible to our physical world.It is spiritual.

Yes, but when does faith come? It comes after we have already been given life through the message of the gospel of God's grace. Faith in God's grace comes from the new man, the reborn man. Therefore faith in grace is a gift.

There is a big difference between "recieving" and "deciding". Below are the steps:

Recieving

1) Salvation complete
2) Recieve

Deciding

1) Salvation offer
2) decide
3) salvation complete

Notice how the "decision" now becomes part of salvation and is a "condition" to it's completion.
"recieving" is acceptance of a Salvation that has already been completed.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Works aren't only tangible things. A work is anything that we think, do or say. The moment works of any kind are introduced into the salvation picture, our salvation becomes uncertain because we look inward for assurance instead of looking outward the the message of God's grace.

In my example above. A person who makes a "decision" may some time down life's road, question wether or not they truly made the decision that they thought they did back when they first believed. Perhaps at that time, life isn't going well and they have been falling into sin and they are wondering to themselves..."since I am caught up in all these sins, maybe I didn't decide for Christ after all! Maybe I am not saved!"
And we see the devil working his poison because we depend on our decision instead of depending on God's grace. See what I mean?

i will agree with you here. salvation is done and we then recv. it. but we are a part of it.that cannot be argued. God beckons us by his spirit and we hear though the spirit's gentle tugging and we then make a choice.either we recv or ignore that beckoning.
Maybe like this
Salvation Complete on the cross at Calvary:
1. recv grace and salvations gift by faith.
2.dont recv grace and salvation -but it is waiting for you always.

DECIDING
salvation still complete at calvary
1.choose to recv or not it is still complete and wating for you forever. but choose you this day...


interseting point...did anone see the Diary info about SIster theresa, the nun who did all these great "works" in Calcutta?
She wasnt sure of her own salvation and often doubted God...wow. Catholic people must struggle so much with works and faith and repentance and pergutory and just everything. they are making salvation so difficult.No offense to those of you are Catholic by denomination, but there is somuch more to Jesus you are not being taught. Open the word for yourselves and study. Sunday mass in Latin is not going to reveal Christ in His fullness...
I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, but there is so much more...
nab

Thanks Nabs. That is the point I was trying to make, though did not do so.

There is no glory to God if we do not chose with our own free will to accept (receive) the free gift of salvation which was completed 2000+ years ago and was set in motion before time began. In my original post I was using your "receive" as my "conscious decision" We are on the same page.

Think of it this way:

You have drowned in the ocean, someone comes along and breaths into you until you start breathing again.

In this way, we recieve the message.
We don't choose to have life breathed into us, we don't decide to live, we simply rest in the life breathed into us.

The bible teaches we are not born again by human decision. Nor do we choose God.

"you did not choose me, I have chosen you"
"...nor of human decision, but born of God"

Then in that scenario how is God glorified and how can the Gospel be for every one, yet not everyone have it.

Your analogy is close. You are drowning, your salvation comes to you complete in the form of a flotation device and rope (it is complete and was made long ago and is sufficient for your rescue). You did not deserve it but it gets thrown to you, you are even too week to grasp of your own accord so your rescuer (the Holy Spirit) dives in to save you. Your rescuer stops short of putting the life vest on you and looks into your heart and asks you if you want to be rescued. You are too week to even speak but you nod exhaustedly. The the rescuer puts the life vest on you and drags you back on shore.

You must consciously acquiesce to the urgings. If your scenario is true then the people that will go to hell will go there because God wants them to and that is contrary to His word.

(peace and love to ya)

Well I might agree with your interpretation if the Bible taught that there was some life in us when we needed rescuing. But the bible teaches that we are objects of God's wrath, we are spiritually "dead" men! Dead men can do nothing. That means my interpretation is more fitting with scripture.

He is glorified because he breathed life into the dead. A ressurection if you will. Before conversion we are entirley spiritually dead. In your scenario, God loses some of his glory because "your nod" is "your" glory, not God's.



We can resist him. We can resist his rescue. We are spiritually dead prior to conversion. But the "man" that we are, the enemy of God, is alive and can resist him.

Hugs!
Echo

ECHO, YOU CANT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THEOTHE(DARN caps). if we can resist we can also not resist...or recv.recving is not giving glory to ourselves or denying god his glory. You are leaping big time with that statement. God made man in His image. Dead spiritually after Adam? yes. But still in His image. When the spirit draws us(from hearing the gospel) we HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE.

so can we clarify WELS?
DOes WELS, and hence Echo, believe we can choose God and we can deny God?
or did God choose those who would go to hell before time began?

It has to be one or the other. if we cant choose. then God has to.
ANd if God is the only one doing the choosing then His scripture that states that "none should perish" is false. and God is incapable of lying.
Many examples of faith are described in scripture. one saved man even asks Jesus "to help my unbelief". It is ours to do, believe or not. Belief or faith is not a work as described biblically. Quit making it one, please.

You are confusing the old man and new man each one of us has.

What does WELS teach? WELS teachs what the bible teaches:

1) We cannot choose God or decide for Christ:

John 15:16 "you did not choose me, but I chose you..."

John 1:13 "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

2)We can resist the Holy Spirit, we can resist faith:

Acts 28:24 "Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe."

Acts 7:51 ""You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

3)God wants all men to be saved:

1 Tim 2:3-5 "3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

4) we have lost God's image as a result of the fall. That image gets renewed day by day when we become believers:

2 Corinth 4:16 "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day."

>>>>>>>>>>>.
You didn't choose to be born by your physical parents. Why would you choose to be born by God, and in so doing, upset God's order of things since creation?

I find it so comforting to know that God chose me instead of me choosing him! If ever down the road of life I question my salvation, I don't want to look inward for assurance of wether or not I chose God. Because if I do that, faith will be shaken. However, if ever down the road of life I question my salvation, and then I remember that God chose me. Faith is never shaken, it is strengthened!

Hugs!

SO IN SUMMARY, you have absolutely nothing to do with your salvation because God chose you. When he chose you , were you even yet born?
when He chose you, did you resist him awhile and then recieve Him?
when you were a 6 yr old child, chosen by GOd, were you yet saved?
HOw about 2 yr old?
an infant?
When did God's choosing you become "savation"?
Was it at birth, before birth?
If you were saved before birth, then scripture lies, it says we must be BORN AGAIN in order to be saved>
SO if you weren't saved prioor to birth, when?
ANd it is was "post birth(almost typed "aftebirth"...yuck)
then you had something to do with it. in your mind soul heart spirit, or something you came to a realization you were saved. so you then began living like it. There was a beginning to your salvation and you had a mental/spiritual defining moment when you said, "i choose to be a christian".
GOd does not have puppets on strings acting only the way He makes them.
You (and WELS) apparently are ever so slightly misinterpreting scripture and NOT using other scripture to better define or support your doctrine.once again, "born of human decision" is speaking of PHYSICAL BIRTH not spiritual.

this verse directly contradicts WELS position on our doing nothing to find salvation.
ROmans 10:9
"for if you confess with your mouth the LORD JESUS and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

If you wish to continue in the doctrinal "we have nothing to do with our salvation" stance, I dont believe we can ever find common ground.
We both believe in Christ Jesus as saviour , we both believe in many truths together, however we may have to disagree here. I believe WELS is in the major minority on this position of GRace.

While I support much of what you say about God's amazing grace, i cannot say, i have nothing to do with my own salvation coming to existence. Scripture plainly says we have to choose. Yes by the holy spirit's unction and yes, it is waiting on us freely to take, and yes, God has chosen us ALL, but we have a part. Everything God does for us requires us to participate.
He loves us, we can accept it or not.
He wants us to love HIM, we can love him or not.
He wants to give us grace and salvation and mercy, but we still have to accpet them. Finally,
IF someone opens the jail cell door in the prison I am in, and I choose not to leave, i am still in prison and I am still in jail and I am still a prisoner. The moment i choose to leave (even by the holy spirits nudging) i am free. I must participate in the gift.
nab

We are "born again" through the gospel in word and sacrament.




Before conversion we have no free will to choose God.
After conversion we have our free will restored. We can choose to do things God wants us to do or we can choose not to do them.

The passage I took that from cleary means born again into God's family.



No contradiction, just a misunderstanding on your part.
Once we are born again, we then confess Jesus with our heart. This is because since we are born again, we now have the ability to do such a thing.

Scripture nowhere says we have to choose.

You look at the word "recieving" as something we do instead of looking at it as something we get.

Hugs

BTW-your "edit reason" is very funny!

I was chosen when I was 39 years old.

Baptism and the Lord's supper are sacraments



I don't know how many are saved and how many turn away.
A child becomes born again in infant Baptism.



Exactly, but physical birth is used as an alike comparison of what must take place. We didn't choose to be born to our natural families, nor do we choose to be born into God's family.



You are missing what I am saying. Salvation has already been accomplished 2000 years ago on the cross, not when we make a decision. When we hear what Jesus has done for us, in that same instant we are born again because we beleive God HAS saved us. And are then able to recieve or accept that message.
Compare it to me putting a vase of flowers on your kitchen table as a gift to you.
You didn't choose for me to put them there and give them to you.
The gift was already yours because I put it on your table, you recieved it passively because I put it there. You didn't choose or decide that I should do that.



Here are the greek words that you posted that would apply:


3) not to refuse or reject

My point is, the flowers were already my gift to you. I placed them on your table. All you could do at that point is reject my gift. To receive simply means "I gave them to you", you then didn't reject.
Again, your looking at recieving as something we do instead of something done for us.


As with my flowers gift, recieving is entirley passive, not active. It has to be because scripture clearly teaches we do not choose God, he chooses us.

ARE INFANTS, accountable to God?
Will an infant, not batised by his parents, go to Hell and eternal damnation should he die?
ALL these questions accoring to WELS, obviously.
Where does the scripture talk about the sacrament of communion having anything to do with one's salvation?
and really if something as intangible as faith is a "work" how can something physical like infant baptism or the sacrament of communion not be???

The question isn't wether infants are accountable to God, the question is what does Baptism mean? And should infants be baptized?

Since Baptism is God's sign to us that we have been made his own dear children, why wait to Baptize?

When Jesus was Baptized this is what happened:

Mathew 3:16-17 "16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Baptism is God's sign to us that we are his children!
In our Baptism, God says to each of us: "this is my son" or "this is my daughter"

Baptism gives us the assurance that each of us have been made God's children. And since that is the message of Baptism, that means God creates faith in infants for it is through faith that we become God's children. It is in Baptism that infants recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the gift of faith.

So my question to you is, in light of the true meaning of Baptism, why postpone baptizing infants? Do you not want them to be given the gift of faith in their infancy?



I was speaking specifically about Baptism but you asked me what a sacrament was and both Baptism and the Lords supper are sacraments.
That said. Both Baptism and the Lord's supper are the gospel.
The gospel in Baptism is done once, which signifies we only become members of God's family when we are born again into it at conversion. The Lord's supper is the gospel. It is the ongoing visible assurance of the forgiveness of sins we recieved when we first believed.
Both are the gospel.

Since Baptism is the gospel. It provides an outward visible sign that we have been made God's children, but it also creates faith in infants and strengthens faith in adults as a result. In our Baptism, we also recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit which works the gift of faith or strengthens faith. ( Acts 2:38 )



Faith doesn't save. Even the demons believed and shuttered. Grace saves. Faith is only the hand in which grace is placed.
making a Decision or choosing God, those are works.
Baptism and communion are not works, they are the gospel. God does something for us in Baptism and communion. We don't do something for God.

Hugs

i feel like i am listening to a different language when i hear you define some of these words.

acts 2:38 says, "repent, and let every one of you be baptised..."
infants can do this???

it says REPENT.

verse 39 says it is to "...your children and as many..." it is speaking of the promise of the Holy Spirit - after repentance.

need i remind you of this little gem..."FAITH COMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING , BY THE WoRD OF GOD."

Faith does not come by passive receiving of Baptism... an outward symbolic ritual of new birth.

i just read some info on infant baptism from WELS site and it is subtly taking scripture intended one way and using it literally another to support its "position".

Matthew 18:10 speaking of the lost
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

2 samuel 12:22 -23 (david and his sons death)

And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?


But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

david is saying here that the child has gone to GOd. and one day he too will go to him.


from WELS SITE:
Read 2 Samuel 12:22-23, and Matthew 18:10 Passages that say the children can come to the Lord are all the more reason to baptize them since baptism is a means of bringing them to the Lord. Infant sin and infant faith is demonstrated in the passages cited above

infant sin and infant faith are cited in these passages???

NOw to clarify:
Matthew 18 verse 10 begins the parable of the lost sheep - jesus is speaking.
GO back to matthew 18:1

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?


Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,


Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, [b]Except ye be converted, and become as little children,[b/] ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(he is peaking to adults in this parable)


Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.


Mat 18:6 ¶ But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

here we have the set up for using the term of little children or "little ones" as used in verse 18.

It is talking about humbling ones self like a child, not children literally.
Jesus is saying, the way to enter into heaven is by the simple trust and dependence of a child and the way to greatness in the kingdom is by the humility of a child, expressed in humble service.

i hope you understand what i am saying.
context of scripture must be used. WELS is not, especially in this instance.

big hugs to echo of wisconsin

It takes time to understand one anothers thoughts, ideas and beliefs. But Baptism is a whole different thing for me than it is for you, that is for sure. That is why it is important to listen and learn from one another as we are doing.



Notice in Acts 2:38, Peter is speaking to adults, not infants.
Remember I said that Baptism strenghtens the faith of adults.
Adults repent, then are baptized and faith is strengthened.

Peter also says to these adults: "this promise is for you and your children". Repentance isn't the promise. The gift of the Holy Spirit is the promise.

The Holy Spirit came down on Jesus in his baptism. The Holy Spirit causes faith and strengthens faith.

When Jesus was baptized, do you see him making a decision or choice? No. The father is doing something to Jesus. Not the other way around. The father is giving Jesus a sign that he is his son! No where in these passages do we have Jesus turning Baptism into his sign to God. You have got it backwards my freind.



I agree! But babies are too young to hear the message of the gospel through the word and understand it. But since Baptism is a rebirth , just as hearing the gospel is a rebirth, since both Baptism and the gospel are the same thing. Babies experience rebirth through the washing of the water together with the word. The gift of Faith is given to them through the gift of the Holy Spirit in Baptism.

Baptism=Gospel

The verse below shows that Baptism is a rebirth, a renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5-6 "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,"



Baptism isn't symbolic. It actually saves:

1 Peter 3:20-21 "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

I would like to understand what you are trying to tell me or teach me. Could you post the exact link you are referring to also? I tried to plug it into the search and I don't come up with it, if you could do that, it would help me a great deal.Then I can address what you are saying better.

Hugs to Nabster from CAPSville

from wels doctrinal beliefs:

We believe that already before the world was created, God chose those individuals whom he would in time convert through the gospel of Christ and preserve in faith to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4-6; Romans 8:29,30). This election to faith and salvation in no way was caused by anything in people but shows how completely salvation is by grace alone (Romans 11:5,6).

nabster inserts comment here:
the Bible says God is no respecter of persons, he treats equally all men. if He predestined some for Hell it also means, "that none should perish " is in contradiction as well.

back to wels...


We believe that at the moment of death, the souls of those who believe in Christ go immediately to be with the Lord in the joy of heaven because of the atoning work of Christ (Luke 23:43). The souls of those who do not believe in Christ go to an eternity of misery in hell (Luke 16:22-24).

We reject every teaching that people in any way contribute to their salvation. We reject the belief that people with their own power can cooperate in their conversion or make a decision for Christ (John 15:16).
We reject the belief that those who are converted were less resistant to God’s grace than those who remain unconverted. We reject all efforts to present faith as a condition people must fulfill to complete their justification. We reject all attempts of sinners to justify themselves before God.

end

echo, we will never agree on any of this...

After reading the WELs site as well about assembly of GOd, they have placed statements in their Q and A that are blatantly false.

They state that we (AOG) believe we can attain in this life perfect holy life. We do not teach this. WE do teach holiness, and striving to live holy.

WELS stated we believe in salvation AFter baptism of HOly spirit, we do not.

INtersetingly enough however, WELS states the Word of GOd is infallable and complete and with out error. Take it literally when literal and figuratively when figurative.

However when question about baptism in the HOly spirit is asnwered,WELS ignores ACts 19:2

Paul asked believers, "did you recv the Holy Spirit when you believed? So they said to him we have not so much as heard whether there is a holy spirit.
paul goes to say, john baptised with water and repentance, then they were baptised in the name of JEsus, Paul laid hands upon them and they RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SPOKE WITH OTHER TONGUES.
this is merely evidence of this Baptism. all 5 examples in scripture reference spoke with other tongues when baptism of holy spirit is used.(one example doesnt , but it references physical trait we believe was tongues)

matthew 3:11 "i indeed baptise you with water unto repentance, but HE who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry,HE WILL BAPTISE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE"(ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS OMIT THE WORD FIRE).

PAUL LATEr SPEAKS IN SEVERAL INSTANCES OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES.
the Bible says clearly it our way of prayer where the spirit intercedes on our behalf when we know not what to pray.

it also says when we pray in tongues WE SPEAK MYSTERIES UNTO GOD. god understands - the devil does not. he cannot understand or do battle against our prayers when he doesnt know what we are praying. it is a powerful prayer language.
The scripture also says this gift of the Baptism of the holy spirit is for all "who are afar off" as many as the Lord will call.

It didnt end with the aPostles as WELS states. WELS just says it "isnt Normative for christians today".

SO they abandon scripture when it isnt normative.

How about this one,
acts 3:19
Repent, therefor and BE CONVERTED, that your sins may be blotted out..."


repent. an act of an individual.



about tongues...

acts 2:4 Tongues are a real language.
acts 4:31 the holy spirit gives us boldness to confess christ openly.
acts 8 :14-20 simon sees them baptised in the bholy ghost -witnesses something physical "he saw" and wanted the "gift of God"
intersetingly verse 16 says ," For as yet HE(the holy spirit) had not yet fallen upon them> They had only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus"
17 says, " and they laid hands on them and they recvd the holy spirit".

acts 10:44-48
peter speaking, all who heard were baptised in the holy ghost (not apostles mind you) they speak with other tongues at the point the gift is given...

and verse 47 - hold on to your horses...

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptised who have RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT just as we have?


This is baptism after conversion.

Now regarding baptism in the holy spirit, no where does it state the gifts of the holy spirit come to an end anywhere (until Jesus retruns) and if GOd is the same yesterday today and forever- then the gifts are for us today. and the bible says we must seek thsese gifts. These gifts are mentioned in the book of corinthians - 12 .

verese one says "concerning spritual gifts i do not want you to be ignorant..."

take that one as you wish...

wisdom, knowledge, faith, healings, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, different kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues.

why dont WELS (and many others) include these things in their doctrine when they state the Bible as infallible incorruptible and complete?

You know why the AOG is growing? Because it is truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Are there some yahoos out there getting "in the flesh and doing unscirptural nonsense within the AOG" yes and they are in every denomination. and they are not representative of our (or any other ) denomination.
We believe the whole Bible. We dont omit acts chapter 2 for convenience sake...

WHHHHEEEEWWWWWWWW!

man am i rantiing or what!?!?!?!
I got a little tense when i saw the WELS info on what I BELIEVE, and it wasnt completely factual.

I wish, everyone knew the gift of Baptism in the Holy SPirit as in acts chapter 2 becasue your life will never be the same. It is an awesome , and truly faith building and faith keeping experience. It is real and it is for " all who are afar off , as many as the Lord our God will call."

I love Jesus Christ with all my heart. I will sing his praises, and I will confess his name before men. I have a boldness that comes from the HOly Spirit. Not arrogant, but confident in what i believe, and I know why i believe what I do.

now if the holy spirit could just help my typing skills...

nabs

You have to read the whole page. Below what you have posted from WELS it says this:

From WELS:

>>>>>
““We reject the false and blasphemous conclusion that those who are lost were predestined, or elected, by God to damnation, for God wants all people to be saved (1Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9).” [Article IV, paragraph 10]

Please note that the Wisconsin Synod teaches predestination to salvation alone. Predestination to damnation is rejected. Predestination is based on God’s grace alone. There was nothing in any human being that would cause God to choose him. The Wisconsin Synod teaches universal atonement (Christ died for the sins of all). God also desires the salvation of every sinner. We do not try to rationalize why some are saved and not others in a way that is satisfying to human reason. We believe that if a person is saved it is all to God’s credit. If a person is lost, it is completely that person’s fault.”
>>>>>>>>

Here is the link:

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=10&cuItem_itemID=5678




>>>>>>>

9. Sanctification
Sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God (Romans 12:1,2; 1
Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 13:12). Scriptures teach a life of "holiness without which no man shall see the
Lord" (Hebrews 12:14). By the power of the Holy Ghost we are able to obey the command: "Be ye holy, for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:15,16).
Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, and by faith reckoning daily upon the fact of that union, and by offering every faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:1-11,13; 8:1,2,13; Galatians 2:20; Philippians 2:12,13; 1 Peter
1:5).
>>>>>>
Here is the link: http://www.ag.org/top/about/recommended_ch_bylaws.pdf

See page 6



Sorry, I couldn’t find this one in the “search” at WELS. If you don’t provide a link, you can’t say that WELS says this. At least provide their exact wording so I can find it in the “search”. Without doing that, its merely heresy.



Yes. Do you believe this also?

When the bible talks literally about the Lords supper, it says “ This IS my body…This IS my blood” It doesn’t say: “this is symbolic of my body” “this is symbolic of my blood”

And when the bible talks literally about Baptism. The Bible says: “…this baptism that now saves you”
It does not say: “this baptism is a symbol of your saving yourself by choosing me”

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No WELS doesn’t ignore it at all. These men were Baptized by John the Baptist so they didn’t yet receive the Holy Spirit. When we are baptized in the name of the father, son and HS, we receive the gift of the HS (Acts 2:38)

Again, in our water baptism we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


WELS says that if a church body teaches tongues, we can know if it is true tongues or some other phenomena by seeing if other things the church teaches is true or not. For example, if we find false teachings within the AOG of any sort, then those tongues spoken there are not from God. The reason is because God wouldn’t give the gift of tongues as a sign to a false teaching church because God hates false teaching.



The Holy Spirit works repentance into us therefore it is not the act of the individual, it is an act of the Holy Spirit.

John 16: “7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;



Yes a real human language. For example if God gave me the gift of tongues, I could speak Chinese so that someone Chinese could understand me. Tongues isn’t some language not known to man that only God understands.

Yes, this is true, I have experienced it myself.


I agree.

I agree. That is because they received the Holy Spirit when they heard the message and then receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism. That is because “the message = Baptism”





I am not doubting that God could still give the gift of tongues if he chooses. But since AOG has many false teachings, I am not required to believe in the tongues they preach either. That’s all I am saying.





There really isn’t any reason why God would continue the gifts of tongues, remember that biblical tongues aren’t some God known language not of the earth. Tongues was the gift to speak in languages that others spoke. Since the Bible is now complete, it is no longer necessary to have some of these gifts. For example, prophecy about the future is no longer necessary because the Bible is now finished. The apostles had special gifts because that gave evidence that God had chosen them and that they were indeed his apostles. 2 Corinthians 12:12 “The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.”
We no longer have apostles, we only have disciples. We still have some of the gifts given though. They haven’t all expired.

But lets not get off topic on tongues right now. Lets keep talking about Baptism so we don't get side tracked. Could you go back and boldy address my last post on Baptism?

Hugs

WE CAN GO BACK TO BAPTISM...
BUT WHAT DOES CORINTHIANS SAY...SPEAKING OF GIT\FTS GIVEN...
IT SAYS DIFFERENT KINDS OF TONGUES...THERE ARE 3.
PERSONAL PRAYER LANGUAGE, TONGUES FOR PROPHECY AND EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH, IT MUST BE FOLLOWED BY INTERPRETATION AND THEN THERE IS A REAL LANGUAGE OFTEN USED BY MISSIONARIES IN FOREIGN LANDS.
(DARN CAPS) i am not shouting here.
You call our interpretation of scripture false teaching. We can support everything we teach throughout with scripture references.
We justify our interpretation using other scripture to strengthen the interpretation. We dont jump to conclusions or rationalize, or twist or take out of context. We believe in the same Jesus you do, the same saviour, the same truths. The only place we differ, is inside the four walls of churches and in doctrines that are not really critical to the kingdom. We teach salvation through Jesus. as do WELS. We teach in fact many of the same doctrines you state in fullness. We differ on a few that dont change our salvation or our mission to spread the gospel.

Baptism, im scripture is mentioned several times in salvation and d\several times without. How do we justify whether it is critical in someone being saved? Church of Christ it is what saves. The act of baptism saving someone from sin, without the heart being involved does not line up with what God says about the heart.

there are many:

psalm 7:10
My defence [is] of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

psalm 26:2
Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

psalm 44:21
Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

and new test examples:
matt 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

john 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

acts 5:4
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee

acts 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

i dont understnad how WELS can say Baptism saves, regardless of the heart, when these scriptures (and multiple others) define how GOd looks at the individual. especialy this romans verse.
Having water placed upon you by a man, does not save. That is false teaching.
Salvation comes from the heart and the purpose of one's heart.
It is in fact a decision.

how do you reconcile this?
john's baptism was the baptism of WATER and repentance. WHich you do, but call it grace.( i agree with grace, just not that water and the act saves-especially if the heart does not render belief)

acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


that they should believe...this is personal echo. it isnt passive.
we differ on this.
an infant, who has not willfully sinned in the heart, is going to heaven , baptised or not.

david, losing his son in the book of samuel, shows this.

In Hebrews the bible speaks about how the apostles were witnesses to world about the message of salvation. And it explains that because God wanted to confirm to the world that these men were indeed his apostles so he gave them "gifts" distributed according to his will. The reason he gave them these gifts is so that the world would know they were indeed his apostles. But now we have the Bible ,those gifts are no longer needed to prove that the apostles were his witnesses. The completed Bible is now God's own testimony of himself:

Hebrews 2:1-4 "1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."



Adults believe first and then are baptized.
Infants are batized and given the gift of faith in their Baptism.

Acts 2:38 says "This promise is for you and your children" (The promise being the gift of the Holy Spirit given in Baptism)
Now if there was an age restriction on Baptism, it needed to be mentioned here or anywhere in the NT but it is not. To ASSUME that infants don't need to be baptized is to add to God's word. Jesus said: "Go and baptize ALL nations...." If infants were excluded, this verse should have said so or their should be a verse somewhere in the NT that does exclude them. So to ASSUME what you are saying is to add to scripture something that it doesn't say. That is adding to God's word. Adding to God's word is forbidden and is sin.
If we take the words in both passages I shared with you, "Literally" as we should and as we are both taught to do, then Baptism is for all children.
Because children are included in "ALL" nations. Chilren are also included in "this promise is for you and your children". Nothing is more clear than that.

That said, I think the problem is that you interpret Baptism entirely different than I do and that makes this a bit more complicated as a result. So we need to gain a better understanding of each others interpretation of Baptism.



God is the one responsible for changing the heart, not us. That is why we can baptize our infants and trust God to do what only he is capable of doing.
Lets not forget that WELS says that Baptism saves because the Bible says that Baptism saves.
WELS Baptizes children because the bible says this promise is for you and your children.
Lets not forget the numerous times that WHOLE HOUSEHOLDS were baptized. Never was there a household where little ones were excluded, it is never mentioned. They didn't have birth control in that day either and households were very large!
Lets not forget that a decision or choice on our part robs God of the glory only he deserves.

The NT has no single verse that says baptism should be postponed.
The Bible teaches that God chooses us, we don't choose him.
So that means that since God is the one choosing, then he chose to baptize infants and give them faith. After all, he is the one who tells us to baptize all nations.

Infants can believe. John the Baptist believed while in the womb.
Yet I wouldn't go so far as to say that all infants believe in the womb because John may have been a special case, I don't know, but the point is clear that God can work faith into infants. How he does that exactly, the bible doesn't tell us, but we simply trust that he can. After the ressurection, God chose to use Baptism as the means of grace in which he creates faith in infants. But John the Baptist is evidence that God can work faith into infants and infants can believe.

Titus 3:5 "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

Notice in the above verse that he saves us through our Baptism.
Baptism is a washing of rebirth! That means that in Baptism we are born again. The image of God that we lost in the fall in renewed in Baptism. The Holy Spirit therefore works in and through Baptism.

Because you were taught that we have a decision to make in conversion, it is natural to then think that Baptism should be postponed until one is able to make that desicion. So you need to back up and see that we don't make a decision in conversion.
John tells us that being born of God is not a human decision. You need to take that literally. Even if it makes no sense to you, it is true, you must lay down the idol of "reasoning" and bow down to scripture and let God mold and shape your reasoning instead of letting your reasoning shape and mold God's word.
If we make a decision or choose God, we get the glory for that instead of God. God must get ALL the glory.

Again, take this literally: "You did not choose me, I have chosen you" Say to yourself: "I did not choose God, I did not decide for Christ" and then go from there and read scripture with that in mind. Then God will shape and mold your reasoning.


I don't doubt that David's infant went to heaven before he was circumsized. I don't doubt that if my infant had died the day before Baptism that it would still go to heaven, however, when God commands us to Baptise ALL nations and tells us Baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit is for our children, then to keep my children from it is in reality, despising God's word. I would never want to do that. In your case, because you have different ideas about things, I don't think you are guilty of despising God's word, but I could be wrong.

Hugs

THE WORD OF GOD IS THE VERY ESSENCE OF LIFE FOR ME , ECHO.
serious question.
why is evangelical lutheran synod of a certain state, like wisconsin?
are you guys any different than other e.l.s. from other states?
really curious only.