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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33904 12/10/05 04:06 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the info causes the choice to be made.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly my point! the info in this case is the gospel which brings us to faith and gives us a new heart, the new man. It is the new man that chooses. But if you are a new man, you are already saved...don't you see?

Acts 16:14 "One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

Lydia did not make a "choice" she can get credit for, the LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND TO THE MESSAGE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">as mentioned above..faith happens after i hear the info not before..it is impossible to believe in something i have never heard of. as it is impossible to render opinion of something i have never heard of either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree! faith is was enables you to make a choice! But you are already saved by the faith! So the choice you made was to remain in it. Salvation is God's alone. It is finished Jesus said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">as mentioned above..faith happens after i hear the info not before..it is impossible to believe in something i have never heard of. as it is impossible to render opinion of something i have never heard of either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you believe the "choice" was the new man or the old?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you said faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word....it is biblical. an infant neither hears or understnads the gospel . therefor no saving faith for the child....they are not yet accountable so really, saving faith, is not yet required of them for salvation. god's grace covers their innocence. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God creates faith in their hearts in Baptism
Children are not innocent Psalm 51:5 " Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

Let me ask you this: If your Children are not Baptized until they can choose, then they are not saved when they die as children, because they have not chosen yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you do believe one can lose salvation then? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yes

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">correct...they cannot. AFTER hearing the gospel faith can save ...for now they have heard and MUST make a choice, as they have become accountable to God. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, babies would then go to hell because according to you, they cannot make a choice, if you believe they still do, then your argument against infant Baptism falls apart.

In Baptism we are made to be members of God's family and we are forgiven of our sins. If an infant is not Baptized, they are not yet part of God's family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you are losin me here. my choosing to serve God and be saved....DOES NOT GIVE ME ANY GLORY</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not talking about serving God.
But choosing to be saved gives one the opportunity to boast perhaps. " I am going to heaven because "I" chose God" rather than "I am going to heaven because "god" chose me" Anything with "I" in it is boasting and gives me glory. Anything with "god" in it is giving all the glory to God.
It is okay to choose, it just does not contribute to your salvation. It does not complete the process. The work Jesus did is finished.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">meaning of God and he planned it. slap </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I got a headache from that slap by the way, feels like it could last for a week, you are in big trouble mister!!! mad cool


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33905 12/10/05 04:20 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you active in a ministry in or outside of the walls of the church?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes I am out trying to reach Mormons with the gospel. I also answer Mormon emails for a website, trying to reach them with the gospel as well.

I am a mother and wife, which is my most important ministry. Most of my family and friends are not believers, including my husband.
So I am working on them.

I volunteer as often as I can at Church.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33906 12/10/05 05:31 AM
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Just a couple more things I want to add to my second post above post to you.

Nothing in scripture says to Baptize at a certain age. The Bible uses words like "ALL NATIONS" and "this promise is for you and your children"

Look at this passage: 2 Timothy 3:15 "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Baptism replaces circumcision:

Collosians 2:11-12 "11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."

IF BABIES CAN"T BELIEVE, THEY DON'T GO TO HEAVEN

Ephesians 2:8-9 "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

One Extraordinary case in point in which the Holy Spirit worked faith in a child BEFORE his birth was John the Baptist!!! Luke 1:41-44

Babies must be born again in Baptism.
John 3:7 "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again"

If Children have to choose wether to except the gospel, and babies cannot believe, then ALL babies who die go to Hell.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33907 12/10/05 01:46 PM
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as i stated above...God's grace grace covers the innnonce of a child, who is not yet held accountable, because he has not heard the gospel.
You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NKJV - 2Ti 3:15 - and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NASB - 2Ti 3:15 - and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - 2Ti 3:15 - and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

Webster - 2Ti 3:15 - And that from a child thou hast known the sacred scriptures, which are able to make thee wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

this is clearly in reference to a child being taught and WISDOM causes faith for salvation.

the scripture about "to your children" speaks of generations of offspring not literal infants.

Wer are talking semantics here...I firmly believe the Holy SPirit draws and calls all men to God and salvation, when the Gospel is heard . I even believe there is an inner seeking for God from people who have never heard of Jesus Christ or scripture or anything. I think this is why they "create" higher beings in their worship. Where we differ, is the fact that choice is ours to make either for or against God. I do agree we cannot choose jesus if we have not heard of him, and I do agree when we hear of him it is the Holy Spirit that bears witness of the truth of the Gospel. He prompts and tugs and pulls us to the truth by convicting us with the word. BUt we still have a decision to make for or against Jesus. We get no glory and it is not a "work" it is a choice to eithe serve God or not. I have given you ample scripture throughout to support choice. Furthermore as stated above God receives pleasure when we choose to do His will and not ours. When our faith says "lord I believe" he is pleased becasue this is ultimate faith.
Baptism no more saves me or makes me christian than being in a garage makes me a car...it is an outward act AFTER ONE IS SAVED. a symbolic showing of cleansing and a showing to the world that" i have been saved".I think it does something spiritual inside you to "strengthen" your decision.Adds faith so to speak. God looks at the inward man, an salvation will always be a matter of the heart. Not a physical action....or dare i call it a work....baptism, that is. Seems like more of a work than "choosing" to serve God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I agree! faith is was enables you to make a choice! But you are already saved by the faith! So the choice you made was to remain in it. Salvation is God's alone. It is finished Jesus said.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">your logic here is just plain baffling.
you cant believe until you hear but when you hear you are already saved? "illogical captain kirk"
If you believe infant babies who are not baptised go to hell, then what about newborns who die following birth, stillborns, abortions, miscarriages and the such....your logic says they are in hell....you cant have it both ways echo.
My God does not call newborns hellbound, unless someone "chooses" to baptise them. What about children given into adoption never baptised or raised by faith, what about children in other countries where God is not the Biblical one? they goin to hell too? What the scripture says about one for salvation is the same for all. SALVATION IS ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY AND A DECISION OF THE HEART TO REJECT OR ACCEPT. NO ONE IS SAVED UNTIL THEY CHOOSE TO BE.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33908 12/10/05 02:07 PM
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BTW, the choice was the old man. Immediatley replaced with the new man. ...spiritually speaking.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Jesus, said ,"Behold I make all things new." We are not before we are saved, it is in fact after.


Also, in support of the positino of the Heart for salvation...Ephesians(to the believers at Ephesus)

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them,

because of the blindness of their heart:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I am not talking about serving God.
But choosing to be saved gives one the opportunity to boast perhaps. " I am going to heaven because "I" chose God" rather than "I am going to heaven because "god" chose me" Anything with "I" in it is boasting and gives me glory. Anything with "god" in it is giving all the glory to God.
It is okay to choose, it just does not contribute to your salvation. It does not complete the process. The work Jesus did is finished.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i think i see where you really coming from....
converstaion:
you: are you saved?
me: yes. I have chosen to serve God and go to heaven.

this example is boastful somewhat.

here is how i iwould respond however in that conversatino...
you ; are you saved?
me: yes, He picked me up out of the miry clay and set my feet upon the rock. the Lord saved my wretched soul. i came to christ when i was 29 years old. he changed my life forever.
this is humilty in salvation. this is where i stand. i dont take credit for anything, i dont boast, but i did choose upon the prompting of the Holy Ghost to do so. I opened the door of my heart and accepted salvation. Salvation is a gift and therefor must be received. If you bring me gifts i never open and acknowledge, what good does that gift do ? You have given it, but i chose not to take it...i chose.

nabster


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33909 12/10/05 08:28 PM
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I have answers to all the points you made above.
We have to go back to square 1. And go one step at a time. Let's try to stay focused on one step at a time. (hard to do I know, but lets try)
There is too much information at once in our conversation. You misunderstand some things I am saying.


You believe that infants cannot believe.

Scripture says those who believe have eternal life, those who don't believe are condemned.

You simply cannot reconcile the two. By your point of view, all babies and children who die without faith, go to Hell.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33910 12/10/05 08:32 PM
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Well, going by the same reasoning that you condemn those that do not know or choose not to believe, yes they are in fact going to hell. Just like the rest fo the schmucks that jumped on the wrong boat.

Here's an idea: If you want to go off topic and talk about something else, simply create a topic. That's as easy as it gets. You don;t need to go off topic in a pre-existing one.

Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33911 12/11/05 12:26 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by nabster:

If you believe infant babies who are not baptised go to hell, then what about newborns who die following birth, stillborns, abortions, miscarriages and the such....your logic says they are in hell....you cant have it both ways echo.
My God does not call newborns hellbound, unless someone "chooses" to baptise them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">have you lost track? this is what i said.
not one single infant goes to hell echo. they are not accountable. IN YOUR VIEW BAPTISM SAVES THE INFANT< SO WITHOUT IT THEY ARE CONDEMNED.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33912 12/11/05 01:23 PM
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Nabster

Yes, I have lost track and I have lost my mind too! That is my excuse and I am sticking with it! LOL

But your point was that infants must be able to choose salvation. Now,you are saying they don't need to choose, they are covered by grace.

The way I see it is that by Baptism infants are covered by grace and can leave or remain in God's family whenever they choose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IN YOUR VIEW BAPTISM SAVES THE INFANT< SO WITHOUT IT THEY ARE CONDEMNED.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

John 3:3 "In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

That is what the Bible says


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33913 12/12/05 02:34 AM
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my ponit is NOt tat infants must choose salvation...MY POINT IS THEY DO NOT HAVE TGO MAKE A CHOICE BECAUSE THEY ARE INCAPABLE. AND THEY ARE COVERED BY GRACE WITHOUR BAPTISM. THEY ARE INNOCENT AND UNACCOUNTABLE.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33914 12/12/05 03:28 AM
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If they do not have to make a choice, why then not baptize them? No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Baptism is being born again.

Children are accountable. Did God keep the babies in the flood from drowning when his wrath came down on the wicked? No, they were included in the wicked! The Bible says that we are accountable for our sin even if we are unaware of it. It says that we are by nature children of wrath. God is not accountable to man, God is not obligated to save us. If Children and babies are going to Hell, It is not God's fault. Who is supposed to go and preach the news to the world? WE ARE. So it is our fault that babies and children go to hell.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33915 12/12/05 12:37 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Echo:
If they do not have to make a choice, why then not baptize them? No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Baptism is being born again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you have said continually in another thread that God sees the HEART in reference to sin....A baby/infant has a heart that is void of sin. sin is an action or a thought process that is wicked and against the Bible and the Word of God... an infant is INCAPABLE OF BOTH ACTION AND THOUGHT that is sinful.
By the way, your WELS doctrine is becoming more clear...Baptism saves , no one has a choice until after he is baptised, it is okay to drink a little even it if hurts your witness, the tithe is not relevant today, just give what your heart feels is right, Christ is Lord and MAster and saviour but not HEaler and physician,because you dont believe in divine healing and the works of the HOly Spirit in faith healing and dont believe in the Baptism of the HOly Spirit, even though Jesus is the one who does so. You probably dont believe in the gifts of the spirit other than pastor, evangelist.
You misinterpret some scriptures to mean "children" and "chosen" to support your doctrine but fail to see the simplicity of Act 16:30.. " and brought them out and said, "Men, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ..."
they are in fact baptised afterward and they chose for themselves salvation.the holy spirit prompted...they chose.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Children are accountable. Did God keep the babies in the flood from drowning when his wrath came down on the wicked? No, they were included in the wicked! The Bible says that we are accountable for our sin even if we are unaware of it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yes, babies were killed in the flood...and babies are killed today...but that doesnt mean accountable...they will not be in hell. they will be in heaven with god. and your verse about accountable even if unaware has nothing to do with those who dont have the capacity to understand sin...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
It says that we are by nature children of wrath. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">not literal children...ie people.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God is not accountable to man, God is not obligated to save us. If Children and babies are going to Hell, It is not God's fault. Who is supposed to go and preach the news to the world? WE ARE. So it is our fault that babies and children go to hell.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AND I SAY AGAIN THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HELL.THIS IS A DOCTRINE OF FEAR...."A PARENT SHOULD BAPTISE THEIR INFANTS SO THEY WONT GO TO HELL"....i think i see now why you do it.
HOW GUILTY A PARENT MUST FEEL IF THEY DO NOT BAPTISE THEIR CHILD BEFORE IT DIES. tHIS MAKES THEM REPSONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S SALVATION...GARBAGE ECHO.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33916 12/12/05 05:21 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I also answer Mormon emails for a website,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really, really, really want to know the web address for that website. Please tell me. Please don't respond to anything else until you've told me.

The Book of Mormon prophets have some things to say regarding infant baptism.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As for the last time I participated in the thread. Echo claimed that death was the consequence of Adam's transgression and therefore we are all responsible for his sin. I disagree, death is only one part of the consequence of Adam's transgression and the fact that we all die is the limit of it's effect on us. Adam not only brought death into the world, but prior to partaking of the fruit, Adam walked and talked with God. Physically and literally on the earth. Adam's punishment was two part. He brought physical death into the world and spiritual death (meaning separation from God).

Again Echo, I really need to know what website it is you answer Mormon questions on.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33917 12/12/05 06:41 PM
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NABSTER

There is not one passage in scripture that says that babies cannot sin. It says the opposite.

Psalm 51 :5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—“

Romans 3:23 “23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

1 Kings 8:46 “46 "When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—…”

John 3:6 “…6Flesh gives birth to flesh…”

Psalm 14 :3 “All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Romans 3:10-12 “10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Ephesians 2:3 “3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.”

How can you argue against all these passages? We are BY NATURE objects of wrath, that means we are born that way! Nothing in scripture says that babies are “ not” born sinful or that babies are “not” by nature objects of wrath. There are no exceptions noted in any of these passages for infants therefore it is all-inclusive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> By the way, your WELS doctrine is becoming more clear...Baptism saves </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Faith in the gospel saves. Baptism "creates” faith in infants and “strengthens” faith in adults.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">, no one has a choice until after he is baptized,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No one has a choice until he has already the gift of Salvation. The choice is not to choose Salvation. It is to choose to serve the Lord who has already saved them.
You cannot choose something that is already yours.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> it is okay to drink a little even it if hurts your witness</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is not what I said. I said that we would refrain if it was a stumbling block to someone or if we thought it would hurt our witness in any way.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Christ is Lord and MAster and saviour but not HEaler and physician,because you dont believe in divine healing and the works of the HOly Spirit in faith healing and dont believe in the Baptism of the HOly Spirit, even though Jesus is the one who does so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is unfair because I told you that I still must research this. Yet you keep bringing it up. I will tell you what I am thinking so far now though. Jesus IS my healer and physician; he has healed my heart by his love and given me eternal life! How much more healing do I need??? What is physical healing? I have spiritual and emotional healing! And though outwardly I am wasting away, yet inwardly I am being renewed day by day!(Paul). I don’t love God because he can do miracles and awe me with tongues, or some infilling of the Holy Spirit. I love God because he first loved me!
What is the focus of your Sunday service? Faith healing, tongues and infilling of the Holy Spirit? The focus of ours is Jesus Christ and him crucified!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You misinterpret some scriptures to mean "children"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">.
Okay, lets take your translation of "child" instead of "infant"

2 Timothy 3:15 “15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” KJV

CHILD=Greek “brephos” Of uncertain affinity; an infant (properly unborn) , babe, (young) child, infant…. Specific to 2 Timothy 3:15 = A noun meaning child, Spoken of a child yet unborn, a fetus. Usually an infant, babe, suckling.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> " and "chosen" to support your doctrine but fail to see the simplicity of Act 16:30.. " and brought them out and said, "Men, what must I do to be saved?” Act 16:31 and they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ..." they are in fact baptized afterward and they chose for themselves salvation. the holy spirit prompted...they chose</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You still misunderstand the point I am making. You refrain from Baptizing Babies because they must choose Salvation rather than receiving what is already theirs!
God offers “life” to your babies, he offers to raise them from the “dead” yet you say, no, let my baby remain in “death” until they can choose life for themselves!
Dead people cannot choose life! They must be alive first and then they can either rejoice that they are alive or they can kill themselves by committing spiritual suicide.
The fact that they can make any choice this way or that, is a result of already being alive!
God offers that life to them in Baptism.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33918 12/12/05 08:23 PM
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When you had babies, the first time you looked at them, did you think they were sinful, unclean, and an abomination before God?

God gave you more than the Bible to understand these things. He gave you your heart and your mind and the Holy Spirit. None of the other gifts God has given you can possibly confirm to you that babies are dirty, sinful creatures.

The Gospel, believe it or not, actually makes sense. I submit that children, because of their innocence are incapable of sin. I submit that they are are "an heritage of the Lord." You seem to think that they are inherently evil and destined for Hell if not baptized. Babies are the only thing in God's creation that are actually perfect.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33919 12/12/05 08:30 PM
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I forgot to add this to my above post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yes, babies were killed in the flood...and babies are killed today...but that doesnt mean accountable...they will not be in hell. they will be in heaven with god. and your verse about accountable even if unaware has nothing to do with those who dont have the capacity to understand sin...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">According to the NT, the flood was a "shadow" of the Baptism that now saves us. That means that when the infants that died in the flood, it too was a shadow of what happens to infants who have not been born again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">not literal children...ie people</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Babies are people

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AND I SAY AGAIN THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HELL.THIS IS A DOCTRINE OF FEAR...."A PARENT SHOULD BAPTISE THEIR INFANTS SO THEY WONT GO TO HELL"....i think i see now why you do it.
HOW GUILTY A PARENT MUST FEEL IF THEY DO NOT BAPTISE THEIR CHILD BEFORE IT DIES. tHIS MAKES THEM REPSONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S SALVATION...GARBAGE ECHO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is not a doctrine of fear, it is a doctrine of the unfathomable love of God towards undeserving mankind!

IF your baby is dying and needs life giving surgery, will you allow the baby to have the surgery that can save him, or will you reject it because the baby can't himself make a decision?
Baptizing infants is making a decision to go for the life saving surgery.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33920 12/12/05 08:50 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When you had babies, the first time you looked at them, did you think they were sinful, unclean, and an abomination before God?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When I had my baby, I knew how much God loved , adored him and treasured him just as he is,an imperfect sinful human being. And for whom Jesus died that he might be declared perfect forever!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The Gospel, believe it or not, actually makes sense. I submit that children, because of their innocence are incapable of sin. I submit that they are are "an heritage of the Lord." You seem to think that they are inherently evil and destined for Hell if not baptized. Babies are the only thing in God's creation that are actually perfect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is unbiblical that babies are perfect.
Psalm 51 :5 "5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV

Like I said before, David's mother did not have an adulterous affair. So that is not what this verse means when it says "in sin did my mother concieve me" Like I also said before, The mother is not "unclean" during conception. So this is not what this verse means either. It means the baby inherited a sinful nature and was born with it. So that the NIV interpretation rings true.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." NIV


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33921 12/12/05 08:53 PM
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What website do you do Mormon outreach for?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33922 12/12/05 09:47 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What website do you do Mormon outreach for?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, I do not have the time to get into a conversation about the website. I already spend far too much time on my computer as is, I was not expecting everyone to drop out of the coversations when I began posting here and because they have, I am spending far more time than I should already, posting in here.
The conversations we already have going is more than I can handle at this time. Sorry.
I am leaving that ministry out of these conversations.


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Re: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod #33923 12/12/05 10:02 PM
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I just want to know a link to the site so I can check it out.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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