I just want to add a few things to my above post


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the gospel was already revealed, the church at ephesus needed understanding of the jew and gentile concept. it is about unity of gospel to ALL, however.i see your point.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I see your point now also, yes I agree that the portion of scripture there is talking about unity between Jew and Gentile. But also, it points out that the two (jew and gentile) have now become one just like one faith, one baptism, one Lord. In other words there is one Lord, One Baptism.

Jesus was Baptised "once" and emediately the spirit came down on him.

John's Baptism was prior to the death of Jesus and was a Baptism of repentance only, they did not recieve the Holy Spirit.

At Pentacost, those believers whom the spirit came down on were already Baptized by John but had not yet recieved the spirit, hence the spirit came on them at pentacost. They spoke in tongues, which was the languages of other people, it was not a language that only God could understand. The whole purpose for the tongues (foreign languages) was so that others could hear and understand the gospel.

Since then, the spirit comes when we are baptized in the name of Jesus. John's Baptism paved the way for Jesus. Therefore, one Baptism.
God could still give the gift of tongues (other languages) if he so chooses today. Perhaps if I were stranded on an Island and someone there spoke another language and there were no translators, and the person was dying, God could enable me to speak that language. But generally today, we have many translators and this gift is not necessarily needed any more. The Holy Spirit works faith and increases faith through the word and sacraments. In Baptism we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Each one of us is given a gift or several gifts as God so chooses. Tongues was never a gift to all believers either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Today we still need the annointing to go and preach the good news.The word of God gives the wisdom and answers, the holy spirit shows us how to use it....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We have all been annointed in our Baptism. You have to remember that all believers are to preach the good news, but not all believers had the gift of tongues.

you take me too literally...haint you wels folk got no humor? mo betta..
the holy spirit is equal to god and christ .equal.

yes and no. there are actually three distinct purposes for tongues.private prayer and intercession, public use for church edification and thirdly, yes, a real language for unbelievers.

two major emphasis...personal edification and public exhortation.
in the experience of the baptism or infilling of the holy spirit, "tongues" functions as a sign of the holy spirit's presence. jesus prophesied it as a sign(mark 16:17)
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;

they will speak in new tongues;

18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

paul referred to it as a sign (1cor 14:22)
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

and peter noted its uniformity as a sign-gift in confirming validity of thje gentiles' experience in the holy spirit(compare acts10:44 with 11:16,17 and 15:7-9). thus speaking in tongues is a properly expected sign, affirming the holy spirits abiding presence ans assuring the believer od an invigorated living witness. not a qualification for fullness but an indication thereof.
first speaking in tongues is a private affair of self edification(1 cor. 14:2-4)
2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

this is also speaking of two different applications or uses or types of tongues as well.
thus "glossolalia" is practiced devotionally by the believer in his most intimate and intercessory moments of communication with god as he is moved by the holy spirit. this "devotional " application my also be practised by corporate agreement, in group gatherings where no unbelievers or uninformed people are present(1 cor 14:23)
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

in line with this understanding , the following reasons are propounded for speaking with tongues.

this is a gift uniquely identified with the church of jesus christ...ALL OTHER GIFTS, MIRACLES AND MANIFESTATIONS WERE PRESENT IN THE OLD TEST. AND UP TO THE DAY OF PENTECOST BUT THE GIFT OF TONGUES IS UNIQUE. 1 COR 12 :28 AND 14:21

28And in the church GOD(EMPHASIS MINE) has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

AND
21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord.
IT IS a specific fullfillment of prophecies by Isaiah and Jesus

IS 28:11
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

compare that to 1 cor 14:21, mark 16:17, acts 2:4 and 10:46, and 19:6 and 1 cor 14:5, 14-18 and 39.
tongues is proof of resurrection and glorification of jesus..john 16:7 and acts 2:26

7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

EVIDENCE OF BAPTISM of holy ghost
acts 2:4 and 10:45,46 and 19:6
a spritiual gift for self edification; 1 cor 14:4 and jude 20
jude
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

and for edification of the church when accompanied by interpretation...1 cor 14:for communication with god in private worship.. 1 cor 14:15
15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

A means that the holy spirit intercedes through us inprayer...romans 8:26 1 cor 14:14 and eph 6:18
a spiritual means for rejoicing..1 cor 14:15,eph 5:18,19.

furthermore pauls application seems to indicate rest or refreshing when speaking in tongues...isaiah 28:12, 1 cor 14:21

tongues follow as one confirmation when the word of god is preached ...mark 16:17,20 and 1 cor 14:22

NOW FOR PUBLIC EXHORTATION....
PUBlic use of tongues also calls for integrity of use and practice. based on the foundation of love in all things. integrity is what preserves the use of the gift in fellowship and worship services.when placed in its proper setting it is a valuable worship experience for the body of christ. tongues just for the sake of tongues is not the end all gift we seek...it really is a minor one at that , when speaking of public use. prophecy is to be sought after, but its emphasis is the edifying th church body. not an every day occurance...we are not preoccupied with the public use of tongues.we see it as a part of the wholeness of our church, a fullness.
in public, the worshipper who feels led to speak in tingues is told scripturally to keeo silent unless they know one who has the gift of interpretation is present. 1 cor 14:5 and 28.
when it is truly the spirit(and sometimes it isnt) ther is order and harmony and an easiness that accompanies...side note we have a woman in our church who seems to be using her private praise language in public setting and it is out of her immaturity she has done so, we as leaders in the church have issued correction so as not to "mess up" an unbeliever who doesnt understand.


"the spirit of the prophets are subject ti the prophets"
1 cor 14:32...each person can exercise self control and should do so to avoid confusion among the body of believers present so that unity will prevail.1 cor 14:40.
it is important to understand the holy spirit freely gives and freely takes away. it is totally up to the holy spirit the gifts that are given...however tongues for personal edification is for all.

just as many things of god much study must be used before rendering a belief in or not in something. i have found most , who are not taught about tingues and the baptism tend to just go wit their churches doctrine....i did, i was raised southern baptist.
i was baptised in holy spirit 7 years ago, i was saved many years ago. i began to seek the infilling and learn about it in depth to be sure it was not a false doctrine of some holy rollers called pentecostals....i did recv...by faith just as you do when saved and you give your heart to jesus. you just know by faith...
i did speak in tongues...i just opened my mouth aND let come out what came out...not english..just syllables..by faith i knew it was the holy spirit speaking through me...hard to explain...the spirit does not overtake your tongue and take control...jesus didnt when you were saved and the holy spirit doesnt when you are baptised in him. by faith you recv. my confirmation was private from god to me that evening...i lay awake for about 4 hours unable to sleep...all i could do was praise jesus in my mind and with my lips until about 4 am. from midnite till 4 the spirit , through me, praised jesus christ....i had never ever done this before for even 20 or 30 minutes after worship was over. the baptism of the holy spirit changed my life forever. all i want to do is praise jesus christ, and honor god the father, and work in ministry and give and encourage and love and be involved in the things of God. if you knew me before you would say it is a real experience. dont get me wrong, jesus gloriously changed my life, but the holy sprit gave me a fullness i did not know existed. it is kinda like going from "on fire for god" to "ON BONFIRE FOR GOD".

so there you have it. longest post ever for me, i hope everyone reads and looks up references.
nabster.

Yaaaaaa I got a sense of humor, but I am not at all familiar with the teachings of the AOG.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, pick up snakes and drink deadly poison and get back to me in a week if you are still alive,

How's that for a sense of humor?

I see I have a lot of homework to do on this topic! LOL Gice me some time to study. :-)

translation is better read, "they shall take up(cast out) snakes"...poison refers to any deadly they drink, however not intentionally. there are some misinformed united pentecostal unity folks that believe in actual snake handling and drinking snake venom...a sect in the appalachian mountains has been known for people dying while hamdling rattle snakes...they believe it is a sign of true believers....they have been mislead.

nabster,

WELS doesn't believe in "speaking in tongues" or
"laying on of hands" because they don't experience it and have sought means within the Bible to justify their position and they've found them. They won't listen to or consider your interpretation, even if you give them reasonable scriptural evidence to do so.

WE AGREE ON THIS ONE JOEL?
AMAZING NO?
DO YOU GUYS ANNOINT WITH OIL?
ALSO, HOW OFTEN DO MORMON CONGREAGTIONS GET TOGETHER CORPORATELY FOR WORSHIP AND INSTRUCTION?

Not so Amazing really, I contend that there are several acceptable Christian organizations that are far more cultish than Mormons.

Yes we annoint with Oil.

We have regular worship service on sunday. The service usually lasts about 1 hour and is followed by one hour of Sunday School and that is followed by one more hour of instruction.

Youth ages 14-18 have daily religious instruction in the wee hours of the morning before school.

Pretty regularly.

What's your take on infant baptism. I find the position indefensible from the Bible.

Joel
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">WELS doesn't believe in "speaking in tongues" or
"laying on of hands" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not exactly right Joel, we believe that God can still give those gifts today if he chooses. He is not presently giving those gifts to us (Wels) in the way that the AOG believes he does. This does not make the AOG necessarily wrong. Wels would have us test other doctrine of the AOG first. If that doctrine does not line up with scripture, then we would not accept their teaching on tongues and healing either. We always want to be in a Church where all doctrine is true to the Bible as best we understand it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">we believe that God can still give those gifts today if he chooses. He is not presently giving those gifts to us (Wels)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's interesting in light of the Biblical verse that started this Mark 16:17-18 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Apparently, if these signs don't "accompany you" then you don't truly believe.

How does WELS reconcile their belief with this particular Biblical statement?

Like I said, I am just beggining this study, so anything I say may not be necessarily correct.

Mark 16:17-18 is referring to the apostles and believers before the Bible was completed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mark 16:17-18 is referring to the apostles and believers before the Bible was completed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really. Verses 15 & 16 say </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm sure you would agree that this applies to us today as equally as it applied to the Apostles, so how can 15 & 16 apply to us and 17 & 18 can't. That doesn't make sense.

this is s good example of many many, evengelical denomination who refuse to accept things of the spirit due to controversy, even when scripture is clear. the gifts of the sporot are for us today, and for generations tomorrow. we had a service last night where many teenagers were gloriously infilled with the baptism of the holy ghost...it was awesome, many spoke in tingues for the first time as they were baptised... i have witnessed children and even a mentally retarded boy receive the baptism in holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues....so dont tell me it isnt for today's christians. because it is. and i still contend to say something god has provided for all believers to have and you to tell him, no i dont believe in it...is bordering on blasphemy...your elders and leaders in WELS(and baptists and catholic and presbyterian and churCH of christ and so on) cannot give solid irrefutable biblical scriptural evidence denying the baptism of the holy spirit for todays believer. the bible is really quite clear, and to deny the holy spirit giving you this gift from jesus, nonetheless, he is the baptiser, blows my mind....YOU PEOPLE ARE MISSING OUT ON ONE OF LIFE'S PUREST JOYS.
NABSTER

Nab

I think you missed one of my posts

here it is again by friend,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WELS doesn't believe in "speaking in tongues" or
"laying on of hands"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not exactly right Joel, we believe that God can still give those gifts today if he chooses. He is not presently giving those gifts to us (Wels) in the way that the AOG believes he does. This does not make the AOG necessarily wrong. Wels would have us test other doctrine of the AOG first. If that doctrine does not line up with scripture, then we would not accept their teaching on tongues and healing either. We always want to be in a Church where all doctrine is true to the Bible as best we understand it.

he is giving these gifts to THOSE WHO SEEK AND ASK FOR THEM. YOU HAVE NOT BECAusE YOU ASK NOT.

darn caps lock'''/.

Echo,

YOu always harp on the fact that you wouldn't want to associate with a church that was in any way unBiblical - so I'm forced to ask - What's the deal with infant baptism?

There's no scriptural precedent, no biblical evidence of that being acceptable, no rhyme, nor reason. Jesus didn't do it, so why do you?

anything lutheran carries a little catholic ritualism. infant baptism, sprinkling is a nice dedication, but means nothing , really, to the childs salvation. it is a ritual from what i have personally witnessed.
i hope God honors it and I hope it makes a differnce..

nabster - so you would agree that there is nothing in the Bible that pertains to infant baptism being acceptable before the Lord and the best we can do is hope that he recognizes it.

i do not think it is UNacceptable, just doesnt carry significant meaning to the child. We hold baby dedications, at church. we dedicate the child to the service of the Lord, and ask God to use him/her in ministry one day and we charge the parents to rear their children in a godly manner consistent with Biblical teaching. everyone gets a rose and a certificate to remember their commitment to raise their children in a loving christian home.

Joel

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">YOu always harp on the fact that you wouldn't want to associate with a church that was in any way unBiblical -</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just want to clarify this. I would associate with all people of all religions. I would not join a false religion nor would I join a Church if I was aware of false doctrine being taught there. But I would associate with all people.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There's no scriptural precedent, no biblical evidence of that being acceptable, no rhyme, nor reason. Jesus didn't do it, so why do you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus said: " Go and make diciples of ALL nations, baptizing them..."

the word "ALL" includes infants and children, otherwise it would have said " Go and baptize all people 13 and up, or whatever the age may be.

Because scripture does not specify an age, all ages are included in the command "ALL"

infants, i would contend do not have the capacity to be "discipples" yet. it says make disciples and baptize "them".
you are taking scripture out of context, in order to continue infant sprinkling that began within the cathoilic church.
Echo, seriously, what does infant baptism "do" for the child and/or the parents?
ritual only, dedication only....?
really it doesnt bother me, just dont see any scripture supporting any kind change as in salvation and baptism.
baptism for the sake of baptism....?