Joel, it's not that I am trying to quote somthing out of context. I am simply putting my head to work to understand the BOM.

I have been thinking latley however that it is actually possible that you have a genuine saving faith. You do read the Bible after all. And perhaps you do have a genuine saving faith, but that still does not mean that all LDS do. I am concerned with those who are NOT saved. So when I read the BOM, I come to the conclusion I come to. Would that not then mean then that other LDS would come to the same conclusion that I do?

Also, It is important to me to be sure that you have saving faith. In the event you really don't.
Don't be offended. What I mean is that I care about you enough to question you about things, to feel comfortable in my own head that you indeed have saving faith. I do that because I want the assurance that you are saved. Okay? That is what freinds do for friends, don't you think?

Can we continue our conversation in the Mormon thread in a peaceful and loving way, not attacking one another, but focusing on doctrine alone? Like good freinds looking out for one another? Can we begin anew?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have been thinking latley however that it is actually possible that you have a genuine saving faith. You do read the Bible after all. And perhaps you do have a genuine saving faith, but that still does not mean that all LDS do. I am concerned with those who are NOT saved. So when I read the BOM, I come to the conclusion I come to. Would that not then mean then that other LDS would come to the same conclusion that I do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you also accept that people can read the Bible and come to the wrong conclusion about faith and works? Can you also accept that if there may be Mormons with saving faith, that there may actually be WELSians without saving faith?

Every religion has followers and fakers.

I don't really care if you know that I have saving faith or not. It doesn't matter to me. I know where I stand with God and that is enough.

I do have a vested interest in people accepting that Mormonism is a valid means of approaching God. Equally valid as any other faith tradition. Doctrinal differences are much easier to discuss when everyone involved takes the attitude of "you may be right, or I may be right, let's talk about it." rather than "you're wrong, you don't even know what you believe and you're going to Hell." and I feel pretty strongly that you've demonstrated the second attitude fairly consistently.

Joel

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you also accept that people can read the Bible and come to the wrong conclusion about faith and works? Can you also accept that if there may be Mormons with saving faith, that there may actually be WELSians without saving faith?

Every religion has followers and fakers.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I totally agree that thier are fakers in all churchs, Even the Bible says so. That is not what I meant. The people whom I am reffering are those who genuinley are God seekers, and having genuine god-seekers fall prey to false teaching.
I am not talking about those who attend the LDS or WELS who could care less.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't really care if you know that I have saving faith or not. It doesn't matter to me. I know where I stand with God and that is enough.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You don't care if you don't have saving faith???
I understand totally that you believe you do have saving faith. I understand that. But supposing you didn't, would you not want me to help you have saving faith? I assume you would want the same for me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do have a vested interest in people accepting that Mormonism is a valid means of approaching God. Equally valid as any other faith tradition.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I understand what you are saying. I do! But, I myself do not see it as a valid means of approaching God. I know you disagree. That is okay. I am not trying to offend you, but if I believe Mormonism is not valid, and lets just suppose I am right for the sake of my explanation. Can I, with a clear conscience allow you to think it is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doctrinal differences are much easier to discuss when everyone involved takes the attitude of "you may be right, or I may be right, let's talk about it." rather than "you're wrong, you don't even know what you believe and you're going to Hell." and I feel pretty strongly that you've demonstrated the second attitude fairly consistently.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This would make it much easier, I do agree. My problem however is that I don't think I am wrong and neither do you. So, I don't really understand how we can take that approach when we both feel we are right??? Any ideas? I am open to ideas?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">rather than "you're wrong, you don't even know what you believe and you're going to Hell." and I feel pretty strongly that you've demonstrated the second attitude fairly consistently.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, I guess my words about you going to Hell offended you? I never intended to offend you. I know it sounds harsh to say that to someone, but you must understand that I say it in love for your soul. "IF" I am right,lets suppose, then it would truly be loving to warn you don't you think? "IF" I am right and you are going to Hell, would you not want that warning to somehow open your eyes so that you may avoid going there? Can a person get the life saving operation they need if they don't know they need the surgery?
I certainly meant not to offend. I mean my motives were definately for your good even though it came across wrong and offended you. Do you see what I am saying?

I would really like to be friends, I hope we can find a way to be successful at talking to one another without hurting one another.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You don't care if you don't have saving faith???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's not what I said. I said I don't care if you know or believe I have saving faith or not.

as for the rest, I've given you this tip before, but telling people that they are Hell-bound is not an effective means of witnessing, however true it may or may not be. It always comes off as judgemental, it always comes off as condescending, it alwasy comes off as self-righteous and arrogant.

As for being friends? again, I don't really care if we are or not. As long as you actually demonstrate the respect and tolerance you claim to have been demonstrating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">as for the rest, I've given you this tip before, but telling people that they are Hell-bound is not an effective means of witnessing, however true it may or may not be. It always comes off as judgemental, it always comes off as condescending, it alwasy comes off as self-righteous and arrogant.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does it still come across that way after I have explained that it is like telling someone that they need life saving surgery?

How about if I explain it this way...
If you have a glass of water and a glass of draino. Would it be self-righteous, judgemental and arrogant if I told you not to drink the draino because it would kill you?

The analogy in and of itself is offensive and condescending.

????????????

Think about it, you are comparing my faith to a life threatening illness or drinking a glass of drano.

That doesn't give a person warm fuzzies.

I served a mission for my church for two years in Norway. I was able to see much conversion in those two years.

I never led with "you're going to Hell if you don't join my church."

That is alienating.

how about, you have an illness a silent, but fatal one, not physical but spiritual. The medicine for a complete cure is .....
and i happen to know
where you can find all the medicine you want.
by the way the people providing the medicine say it is also free, all you have to do is take it.
i used to have a similar problem and it has totally cured me %100.
do you wish to know the medicine?
it also cures instantly....would you like to know?

Look us Mormons do have some trade secrets for effective witnessing.

If y'all play nice I'll agree to share them.

Will try

Here is the question/answer from the WELS Q&A on infants going or not going to Hell.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">QUESTION:

Does God send infants who have not been baptized to Hell?
According to everything we believe, it seems that he does. But then Jesus said "let the little Children come to me and do not hinder them for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Mathew 19:14) and " I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven...
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me..." (Mathew 18:3-5)
When I read these passages, I get the impression that "all" children have faith and are born with it. That somehow they lose faith as they grow up and begin to believe otherwise.
Look at the example of John the Baptist, clearly he had faith in the womb.
Babies have a natural dependence on parents to do everything for them, to take care of them and guide them and love them unconditionally. Babies cannot help but understand the relationship between God and Man because they are helpless to do anything else. It is when the children mature, that this gets lost. Do you see what I am saying?
Psalm 22:9,10 "Yet you brought me out of the womb: you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From Birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God"
This Psalm suggests also that faith begins in the womb."from my mother's womb YOU HAVE BEEN MY GOD" and trust in God at the Mother's breast. And John the Baptist is another example of this when he lept in the womb.
Is is possible that we are all born with faith and then when it is not nurtured (as in an unbelieving family) it gets lost?
I am thinking also that being "born again" is being brought to faith through the word.
So could that mean that the first birth (our natural birth)came with faith also, but faith gets lost when not nurtured and so by a second birth through the word, faith comes?
I mean if the "born again" brings faith, why not the "natural" birth also? It does say "AGAIN" Which also suggests that faith may have come in the womb.
These passages seem to suggest that they do.
What are your thoughts?


ANSWER:

Allow me to respond to your initial question first. Scripture does not answer this question. Whether these young lives were lost through miscarriage, abortion, or stillbirth, God doesn't tell us whether they are saved or lost. We simply entrust them into the hands of a loving God knowing that he will do what is just and right.
However, your question goes beyond the fate of an unbaptized infant. You wonder whether they have faith from the moment of conception. The scriptural teaching of original sin would make this impossible. While a passage like Psalm 22:10 (written by David) would seem to indicate that they might have faith from the womb, we have to put this passage alongside of Psalm 51:5 (also written by David) where David says that he was guilty before God from the moment of his conception. David would hardly stress this point in Psalm 51:5 if he had saving faith, for such a faith means that person is declared not guilty.
Again, we have to put a passage like Psalm 22:10 alongside of Genesis 8:21 which states that the "every inclination of a person's heart is evil from childhood" and Romans 3:23 which says that "all (this would include infants) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Another point to consider is that Scripture indicates that God works faith through the gospel in various forms (Word of God and the Sacraments). We call this the means of grace because it is the means God uses to give us the gracious message of forgiveness through Christ. These are the means he uses to work and strengthen faith in our hearts.
Romans 10:17 says that "faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the Word of Christ."
1 Peter 3:21 states that baptism saves, and Matthew 26:28 tells us that the Lord's Supper gives us the forgiveness of sins.
These are means that God gives us to proclaim the gospel to people, including infants and children. We baptise them and we teach them the truths of God's Word. However, God has not given us any clear means of grace for the unborn. If he chooses to work faith in the heart of an unborn child apart from these normal means, he can certainly do so. But he has not revealed to us that he does and this would be an exception to the rule. John the Baptist was such an exception. In Luke 1:15 the angel told Zechariah that his son would be "filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth." This would indicate that John's situation was unique and different.
So what do we know from Scripture? We know that children are sinful from the moment of conception and that because of this sin they deserve eternal punishment. We know that God has not given us a clear means of grace to work saving faith in the hearts of the unborn. Yet we know that God can work outside of the unusual means he gives us. For this reason we are cautious about saying anything more than that about the fate of the unborn who die before birth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">