Joel

Once again you have put words in my mouth that I did not say. Could you please refrain from doing that? I did not say the others were going to Hell. You said that. I said that they are rejecting Christ. What I meant is that they reject Christ's command to Baptize all nations.


I am ending this topic, All of us have put forth both sides of the picture and nobody is changing their mind, so there is no point to continue.

...But by doing this you are refusing to baptize us. And therefore, you're going to hell then?

MOUSE,I DEEM THEE ANTAGONIZER....

And I accept my role willingly. Everyone who knows me calls me "the classic antagonist". Anyways, I WOULD like an answer to my question Echo, if possible.

Mouse

Which question? Wether I am refusing to baptize you?

Mouse, if you or anyone really wanted to learn, I would answer questions till I am blue in the face! But nobody has shown an interest to continue and Joel is just out to stir up contention as is clear by his personal attacks and disrespect of me as a person. If you are truly interested to learn more, tell me and I will continue. I think it is important for people to discuss their differences in order that we come together into unity. I listen to the views of others too!But the Bible is always the source of wether somthing is truth or not.

I don't go to Hell for knowing when ears are closed and knowing when to walk away from a conversation. Joel is stirring up contention. Joel puts words in my mouth saying that I said everyone was going to hell. An look how they all reacted! That is exactly what he wants! So I decided it is time to end it.

Look, all I want to know is this. Why do you think that you're going to heaven while everyone else, including some who believe in Christ are going to hell? Can you give me a list of things according to you, that send us to hell? It just seems that you're damming quite a lot when only God should ****. You even said before, I cannot judge your heart, it isn't up to me to do it. So why would you say to Joel that he is going to hell? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Also, by saying that babies go to hell, you're judging their hearts. An that, according to you, isn;t right either. So basically I'm just a tad bit confused here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do you think that you're going to heaven while everyone else, including some who believe in Christ are going to hell? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You see, you have fallen for Joel's interpretation of what I said. Nobody who believe's in the true Christ goes to Hell. Joel does not believe in the true Christ.

Joel is the one who said that I said everyone was going to hell, I did not say it. You believed him and he twisted the meaning of what I said. This is his intent! To get everyone against me by secretly twisting what I am saying. This is his intent! And everyone bought into it! This is precisely what he wants!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you give me a list of things according to you, that send us to hell?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unbelief in the true Jesus, sends us to Hell.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You even said before, I cannot judge your heart, it isn't up to me to do it. So why would you say to Joel that he is going to hell? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When I say you cannot judge someone's heart, it means that if someone tells you they love and care about you and you say back to them: "no you don't you hate me" you have judged that persons heart! Clearly they said that they do and you choose not to believe them. On the other hand, if someone says things to you in hate, you would not be wrong to judge their heart as hating you.
The Bible says that out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks! You can judge what is in a persons heart by what they say. But to call them a liar, when their words say the opposite, is wrongful judging of the heart. Does that make clearer what I meant?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So why would you say to Joel that he is going to hell?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not judging Joel's heart when I tell him he is going to Hell. He is being "decieved" into going to Hell. He is not on purpose or intentionally wanting to go there. It is not about his heart and its condition. He is a prisoner who needs rescue!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also, by saying that babies go to hell, you're judging their hearts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible teaches that we are all sinners and we are desperately wicked. We hate God and are his enemies and on and on. No one is excluded. This is our sinful nature, our new nature does not come until we are born again. Therefore, as God's enemies we stand under the judgement of the law which condemns all of us to Hell. Without being born again and being cleansed of our sin, we will indeed suffer the consequences of our sin. God is not accountable to man for who is saved and who is not. Man is accountable to God! You have to remember that God is in control and he will do what is right in all situations! Nothing that comes about in the end will in any way be unjust or unmerciful. Even if we can't see how that is possible from our limited perspective! That is the problem here in this thread, everyone tries to view it from thier limited perspective! But the Bible clearly teaches that we MUST be BORN AGAIN to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Clearly that excludes those who are not.

I understand your confusion Mouse and I am glad that you are at least trying to put it together so that is makes sense! That is a good thing! Sometimes it takes an enormous amount of thinking and reading the Bible over and over until it clicks in. Things don't always make sense in the beginning but bit by bit they come together.
You always need to keep in mind that God can see the whole picture from begginning to end and that he is in control of everything. You have to remember that he is just and merciful and he IS love. Nothing in the end will be unjust or unmerciful. Even if we can't see how that is possible now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel is the one who said that I said everyone was going to hell, I did not say it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To reject infant baptism is to reject Christ!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and you didn't say it in response to a Mormon post. It was in response to Trusting Him's failed attempt at trying to get you to see reason.

As I understand Christianity, rejecting Christ is a one way ticket to Hell. Am I wrong?

So, as you put it, anyone who rejects infant baptism, rejects Christ, and therefore will go to Hell.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I didn't twist your words. I quoted you directly.

If you're worried about what people will think of what you write, then maybe you should be more careful about the way you write it. It would save you the misplaced righteous indignation you're trying to show against me.

I did no twisting.

I had no intent other than calling a spade a spade.

According to what you wrote. If you don't believe in infant baptism, you are rejecting Christ. I'll quote it again

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To reject infant baptism is to reject Christ!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I almost forgot. All of us are wrong in our interpretation of the Bible and you are the only one that is right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ALl of you need to rethink how you interpret The Bible!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You didn't write "Joel needs to rethink..." you wrote "All of you."

Don't try to blame it on me. That would be hypocritical, however that shouldn't be surprising from a follower of pharisaical tactics.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So, as you put it, anyone who rejects infant baptism, rejects Christ, and therefore will go to Hell. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We reject Christ whenever we sin. Does that mean we are going to Hell? NO

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't put words in your mouth, I didn't twist your words. I quoted you directly.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I did not say anyone was going to Hell.
You put those words in my mouth.

Then where is the dividing line?

According to you, the way I, Joel33, reject Christ, will send me to Hell. For some unfathomable reason, that doesn't apply to the way anyone else here rejects Christ.

Moreover, If the way I interpret the Bible is wrong and leading me to Hell, then why isn't the fact that you think everyone else on this forum is interpreting the Bible incorrectly similarly leading them to Hell, like it is for me?

Just be honest. You think that WELS has the entire truth of the Gospel and that everyone else falls short in some way. Don't worry, that doesn't offend me, because I think the same way. I just think you're afraid to say it, because you feel it will undermine the validity of your beliefs. Don't worry about that, your faulty reasoning, superior attitude, self-righteousness and unreasonable approach to dialogue has already undermined the validity of your beliefs.

You guys have got to step back and breathe.

Hey Joel...do Mormons believe that satan is alive and well?

Embie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If anyone does in fact believe the bible, you have to then acknowledge that our struggles are not with flesh and bone, but with principalities.

It's the enemy that causes confusion and division, and right now, I think he's quite pleased. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is what I have told Joel from the beggining. And more than once! That I am not his enemy and he is not my enemy. That Satan is our enemy and that we should walk through this together until we come to unity and defeat our enemy the devil.But clearly his is unwilling.

Echo, please respond to Joel's post. I am intrigued as to how you do.

Mouse

Joel is not going to heaven as of yet because he believes what the jews believed. That they can gain eternal life by works.

Here are some quotes from the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 31 intro:

"Repentance and Baptism are the gate to the strait and narrow path-Eternal life comes to those who keep the commandments after Baptism."

the articles of faith it says this:

"We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."


Alma Chapter 5 Intro:

"To gain salvation, men must repent and keep the commandments, be born again, cleanse their garments through the blood of Christ, be humble and strip themselves from pride and envy, and do the works of righteousness..."

The Bible contradicts all these statements:

Romans 9:30-32 " 30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Phillipians 3:8,9 "8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."

Romans 3:27,28 "27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

Eph 2:8,9 "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:3 "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness."

Romans 4:6 "God credits righteousness apart from works"

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done but because of his mercy"

Galatians 2:16 "16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."


Faith actually means that we simply believe that Jesus has given us eternal life. Apart from anything we do. Joel does not believe this, therefore his faith is really not faith. He believes that he must be obedient to all God's laws(commandments) in order to GAIN ETERNAL LIFE.

We believe eternal life depends soley on God's mercy. His love for sinful mankind.

Joel relies on observing the law and so he is under a curse:

The Bible says "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Galatians 3:10

Jesus tells us what happens to those who are cursed:

Mathew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

They go to hell to spend eternity with the devil and his angels. This means Joel unless he begins to believe the truth. But he refuses to listen to me.

This is why I am very concerned about Joel. But he refuses to believe me, that is his choice and it really makes me feel overwhelmed for his sake.
But I am not going to post with him anymore unless he is willing to do this in a peaceful way and stop the personal attacks. I want peace and he wants war. He fails to understand that I am not his enemy and he is not my enemy. He fails to understand that Satan is our enemy. If he understood this he would be more than willing to do this peacefully without all the personal attacks.He is unwilling. And so there is nothing I can do for him. Nor he for me.

Hope that answers your questions Mouse.

.


.

So you do not believe in good works.

I mean, good works don;t get you into heaven so you shouldn't do good works. In fact, taking what you say for truth, evil works gets you into heaven.

Thank you Satan, I think I'll have another bite of that twinkie.

MOUSE

Joel will argue what I am saying. He says these verses I quoted are Old Testament. But the BOM also teaches that the Gospel was preached to those in the OT, so he can't use that explanation because if they knew the gospel, they would no longer follow the OT covenant. Not only this, but their statement of faith also says we gain salvation by obedience. They can't cover over that one. That is a current statement.

Not to mention, the NT actually tells us that the Gospel has only been revealled in the NT. And that it was hidden in the OT. So the LDS clearly contradicts scripture once again.

Mouse

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So you do not believe in good works.

I mean, good works don;t get you into heaven so you shouldn't do good works. In fact, taking what you say for truth, evil works gets you into heaven.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good works naturally flow from a heart that already has the gaurentee of Eternal life by the mercy of God alone. We do good works out of love and thanks to such a wonderful God. But our works have nothing to do with our Salvation and entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

Does that clarify?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is why I am very concerned about Joel. But he refuses to believe me, that is his choice and it really makes me feel overwhelmed for his sake.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are very offbase here. I don't have a problem with your beliefs. In fact, I largely agree with them. It is you who refuses to believe what I say about my belief and faith system. It is you who refuses to consider Mormonism as a whole and continues to focus on the minutae.

The message of Mormonism as a whole, in regards to salvation is summed up nicely like this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good works naturally flow from a heart that already has the gaurentee of Eternal life by the mercy of God alone. We do good works out of love and thanks to such a wonderful God. But our works have nothing to do with our Salvation and entrance into the kingdom of heaven. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does that clarify?

This is becoming ludicrous to the point of absurd.

I guess I don't believe that I'm saved by Jesus, because, again obviously, someone who isn't me, knows better what I believe.

As I've said numerous times. WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND THE EXTENSION OF HIS GRACE INTO OUR LIVES. Our good works come from the natural desire of the faithful to be obedient to God's commands.

Works like baptism are no more or less required by Mormons than they are by WELS.

Keeping the commandments, doesn't help God in any way, rather, keeping the commandments helps us and shows our love for Jesus, outwardly.

Quote the Book of Mormon out of context all you want. It's like they say, you can't make a tiger change it's stripes. So I guess, you'll never listen and you'll simply continue to beat the drum of false accusation against Mormonism.

It's rather pathetic really.

Let me put it another way Echo, I don't believe in the version of Mormonism you present.

I simply don't. That won't change no matter how much you think I do.

I also don't believe you present an accurate picture of LDS doctrine in regard to the faith and works question and many other questions.

If you persist in believing that your version of Mormonism is the official one, then I guess I'll accept your assertions for the sake of making peace.

Steve, once said that he thought there were many Mormons who, because of their faith in Christ, would be "accidentally saved."

Well, here you go, you've found a Mormon who doesn't believe in the version of Mormonism you present. Maybe I'm simply "accidentally saved" because I actually believe that I am saved by grace. I actually believe that my works merely glorify God and have no saving power. I actually believe that works are merely the sincerest expression of my faith in Christ.

I won't conceed that your version of Mormonism is an accurate portrayal. But I will state unequivocally, that I do not believe in your version of Mormonism.

You should be happy. I don't believe my works save me, I believe Jesus does. If that makes me a non-Mormon in your book then fine. I don't believe it's "your book" that matters, but rather the "book of life."