On the Assemblies of God

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Assemblies of God are fundamentalists who believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Holy Scriptures. They confess the doctrine of the Trinity and the Deity of Christ along with his virgin birth, substitutionary work on the cross, his bodily resurrection from the dead and his exaltation to the right hand of God.
They teach that faith is a condition of salvation rather than teaching that faith is the way God has chosen for us to receive salvation. The implication is that an unconverted, sinful human being must "decide" for Christ. The Wisconsin Synod teaches that people by nature are dead in their tranbsgressions and sin and therefore have no ability to decide of Christ (Ephesians 2:1, 5). We do not choose Christ, rather he chose us (John 15:16) We believe that human beings are purely passive in conversion.

They teach that baptism and Holy Communion are ordinances whereby Christians declare to the world that they have died with Christ and share in the divine nature. They do not believe that the sacraments are means of grace through which the Holy Spirit works to create or strengthen faith. They deny the Real Presence in the Lord's Supper. They insist that the only legitimate way to perform baptism is by immersion. That is undoubtedly why the congregation in your community goes down to the lake to baptize. The Wisconsin Synod teaches that baptism and the Lord's Supper are means of grace through which the Holy Spirit works to create or strengthen faith (Titus 3:4-7, John 3:5-6, 1 Peter 3:21, Matthew 26:26-28). We believe that Christ's true body and blood are truly present in the Lord's Supper (Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 11:23-29). The Bible does not madate the mode of baptism. The water in baptism can be applied in the name of the Triune God by sprinkling, pouring, immersion or submersion.

The Assemblies of God are premillennialist. They believe that Christ will return and reign physically, visibly, and politcally for 1,000 years on earth. The Wisconsin Synod rejects the teaching that Jesus will return to establish a political reign here on earth (John 19:36, Romans 14:17, Colossians 1:13-14).

They are a perfectionist church body. According to the official web site of the Assemblies of God, they believe that "by the power of the Holy Ghost we are able to obey the command: 'Be ye holy, for I am holy.'" Holiness/perfectionist church bodies often seem to make rules where God hasn't and to call things sinful which God has not forbidden. The congregation in your community perhaps has determined that dancing is inherently sinful and therefore forbids dancing. The Wisconsin Synod teaches that although we will strive for Christian perfection, we will not attain it in this life (Romans 7:14-25, Philippians 3:12). We are careful not to call things sinful which God has not called sinful (1 Corinthians 10:23-33, Romans 14:1-23).

The Assemblies of God believe that every believer is entitled to "baptism in the Holy Spirit" (an experience separate from water baptism) with the inital evidence of speaking in tongues. They also practice faith healing. They teach that such "divine healing is an integral part of the gospel. Deliverance from sickness is provided for in the atonement, and is the privilege of all believers." The Wisconsin Synod does not teach a "baptism in the Holy Spirit" separate from and subsequent to water baptism. We do not see speaking in tongues and faith healing as normative for Christians today.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even other Lutherans aren't good enough for WELS </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, the difference between the doctrinal position and practice of the ELCA and WELS is huge. This is not something that can be covered in a short question and answer. You will need to make a study of the doctrinal position and practice of the two churches and the two congregations before you can make a spiritually responsible decision about this matter.
There is a summary of the basic differences in the book WELS and Other Lutherans and there are quite a few questions about this in the archive section of this site. Also there are on-line essays about this in the essay section of the library section of the Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary web site. WELS also has a doctrinal statement This We Believe, which is available in the Beliefs section of this web site.

Another starting point would be to talk to the pastor of the local WELS church. WELS congregations offer Bible Information Classes which explain our beliefs from Scripture. One can take these classes without making any prior commitment to the church.

The main source of the many differences between WELS and the ELCA is a great difference in the view of Scripture. WELS accepts the Scripture as the inspired, errorless Word of God, the only source of doctrine for the church. Though the ELCA speaks of the Bible as inspired, they believe that there are many errors in the Bible and that the church can use other sources along with the Bible in determining their position on such issues as sexuality, etc. Though the ELCA lists the ecumenical creeds and the Lutheran confessions as documents which they accept, their publications and teachers are not required to abide by them.

If you are committed to the Bible as the true, errorless Word of God or you are open to examining that claim on the basis of the Bible's testimony, you should undertake for yourself a point-by-point comparison of the teachings of the two church bodies with the Bible.

You are also welcome to attend a WELS church as a visitor, though you should realize that one difference between the WELS and ELCA is that the ELCA has open communion, which means any Christian can attend the Lord's Supper there, whereas WELS, on the basis of Scripture, believes that joining in the Lord's Supper is a testimony to unity of faith and should only take place when such unity has been established. This practice also is explained in the archive section of this site in the topics on the sacraments and especially the section on fellowship.

If there are some of our beliefs that do not seem to be correct to you, we hope you will take time to evaluate them carefully by comparison with Scripture.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nor do they have a high opinion of "the Church of God" </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Church of God comes out of the Wesleyan/Holiness tradition. These churches teach that Christians can become "wholly sanctified" (perfectionism). This down plays the effects of original sin. They generally speak of our ability to make a decision for Christ. They would put a strong emphasis on Christian living and spiritual experience at the expense of doctrine. They have no creeds and are quite ecumenical in doctrine,though they are basically "conservative". They do not have a high view of the sacraments as true means of grace. Because each congregation is quite independent, details and emphases may vary considerably from congregation to congregation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">On "40 days of Purpose" by Rick Warren they say the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The WELS has no official policy for its congregations on whether or not they can participate in Rick Warren's "40 Days of Purpose Campaign." Of course, that doesn't mean that WELS congregations would be wise to adopt Rick Warren's campaign as is without major revisions.
Here is a copy of an article about Rick Warren's book that appeared in a question and answer column in our synod's magazine, Forward in Christ.

Q: My co-worker recommended The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. Is there benefit from reading it?

A: My copy of The Purpose Driven Life proclaims: “Over Six Million Copies Sold.” Obviously many have read it and no doubt benefitted. The temptation for us as Lutherans is to ignore such books since in our justifiable fear of pietism (see explanation below) we are sometimes timid about encouraging biblical piety.

There are several important truths you can gain from Warren’s book. Much like his book The Purpose Driven Church, Warren identifies a powerful temptation. As congregations and individuals we forget what we are doing here. Our sinful nature’s lust to live by sight and not by faith shifts our focus from timeless treasure to temporary trash.

Warren reminds us that God gives every Christian an eternal purpose. That’s a powerful antidote to the aimless wandering that masquerades as life’s purpose. Our consumer culture seeks only to be entertained by the latest and fastest. Cutting through the often artificial division of “sacred” and “secular,” he reminds us that Monday at home and Tuesday at work - not just Sunday at church - present us with royal priestly opportunities for praising Christ.

However, for all his commendable zeal for sanctified living, Warren stumbles into pietism’s chief pitfall: he inadvertently shifts our focus from Jesus to ourselves.

From beginning to end God’s law (what I must do for God) predominates over God’s gospel (what Jesus has done for me). Repeatedly Warren justly confronts me with my ugly self-centeredness in the mirror of God’s law. But then, often after only a passing gospel reference (or none!), I’m given detailed directions for doing better in the future. Again and again he supplies us with list after list of actions for improved sanctified living (for example: six secrets to friendship with God, p. 87; seven steps for restoring fellowship, p. 154; five attitudes of real servants, p. 265). The lists, in themselves, are often fine, but his key to unlocking greater success in sanctified living is almost always my improved obedience for Christ - not Christ’s perfect obedience for me.

More and more as I read the book, the emphasis seemed to shift from The Purpose Driven Life to The Purpose Driven Life. The gospel was treated as knowledge already possessed and therefore safely assumed. Now my greatest need is to get serious about living obediently.

But is my chief problem in sanctification a lack of information? Isn’t it my failure to grasp the full wonder of the gospel’s transforming power? My moment by moment need for the gospel as the continuing power and strength of my sanctified life was often ignored. With “musts” and “shoulds” Warren drives me with the law rather then drawing me with the gospel.

I perceived a vast difference in emphasis between Warren’s book and Paul’s letters. Even when Paul is in the midst of his sanctification encouragements, he repeatedly explores the length and width and height and depth of Christ’s love.

Only God can work in me “to will and to act according to his God purpose” (Philippians 2:13). Warren doesn’t seem to grasp that sanctification’s most important message isn’t “this do!” but “this believe!” Believe you are perfectly forgiven at Christ’s cross for every sanctification failure! Believe Christ has already in your place fulfilled every demand of God’s law! Believe in your baptism you died with Christ and rose with him - possessing his power to live a new life!

Could you read Warren’s book with profit? Probably. Can I in good conscious recommend this for your devotional reading? Probably not.

Pietism began among 17th century Lutherans as a reaction against what many perceived as a lack of genuine Christianity within the church. Sadly, many legitimate concerns were subverted when the objective truths of justification were downplayed and sanctification became a legalistic demand of how “good” Christians must live. Pietists often refused to see any areas of adiaphora in sanctification.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As for who they think the anti-Christ is:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lutherans have identified this Antichrist as the succession of men who have served in the Papacy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So it's the pope.

About Pentacostals:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible does invite and encourage all Christians to express their unity in the Christian faith in various ways--including praying together--but never if one of the people (or groups) is clinging to error that is contrary to what the Bible teaches. This means that (based on the confessions of the people) even if two people recognize each other as Christians, they are not permitted to pray together if one of them is unwilling to give up the false teaching. We are not to do anything that would make light of false doctrine, compromise the full revelation of truth in Scripture, or endanger the spiritual life of someone who is tolerating error.

We in the confessional Lutheran church acknowledge that most Pentecostals are professing Christians and (as stated above) give thanks for that. But we also believe that by your formal confession of faith (the doctrinal statements of Pentecostal churches and your church formal membership in such a church) you have error mixed with truth, false doctrine mixed with true doctrine. (These errors have to do with your rejection of baptism and the Lord's Supper as true means of grace, your belief that human beings are less than fully dead in sin by nature, and that sinners are able to cooperate in some way in their own conversion, among other teachings).

Therefore, even though we are willing (and happy!) to acknowledge your confession of faith in Christ, we are called to testify against the error that is a part of your confession, and testify against the danger to your soul and the souls of other Pentecostals around you that you are exposing yourself to. This is not done in self-pride or hatred of you or any Pentecostal (that would be sin) but in love for God, his truth, our own souls, and the souls of others. Refraining from joint prayers is a part of this testimony. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That ought to do for now. Apparently if you don't agree with these folks, you're out of luck. Kind of like Mormons actually (except on offical Mormon websites we don't waste time with creating a neat little webpage that will help you systematically dissect and denounce every other denomination on the planet). They reject anyone who doesn't believe exactly like them, even other Lutherans.

They actually spend more time telling everyone else how wrong they are than they do simply telling people what they believe.

heheh - I think their official opinion of the Assemblies of God are off a little... perfectionists? Maybe a little slow to keep up with the times, but hardly perfectionists -

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Joel,

You need a few more lessons on Christianity.

What you perceive as WELS saying

"your not good enough",

"WELS does not have a high opinion of you"

Is incorrect and an ABSOLUTE LIE and SLANDER & DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER. Do you see anywhere in what you have quoted where it says "you are not good enough" or "we are better than you" ? NO! It is one thing Joel if we say something and you misunderstand it, but clearly you are NOT. For you put your own words there, which are no where to be found in what you quoted. So clearly you are not misunderstanding something but have an ulterior motive of some kind.

What you "perceive" as contention within the Denominations is in reality what all true believers want, and that is unity! Unity can only come by all of us discussing our differences and leading one another to see the truth and be united! I look at the different denominations as being in varying levels of understanding and maturity. All false doctrine is of the devil. That does not mean that Christians who are believing in some false doctrine are intentionally following the devil!
Nor does it mean they are going to Hell!
All true believers will always want to hear everyone's views and then go to scripture to see if it is true.

When Wels and other denominations do this, they do it out of love for Christians of other denominations. I expect these other Church's to do the same! So that I can listen to their point of view to see if what they are saying is true!

Yes, we believe the Papacy is the antichrist, their are many reasons, but one is that the Papacy claims to be infallible. The Bible teaches that nobody is infallible except God alone. Anyone who therefore claims they are infallible then raises themselves up to equality with God. Thus the papacy fits the Biblical description of the antichrist.

This does not mean that all Catholic's are going to Hell. For they can still have a true saving faith.

On the purpose driven life, I have that book, and I really enjoyed it, learned alot from it.
Wels stance is that it is a book on sanctification with not much justification in it.
We believe that justification is the motivator to sanctification. Not the other way around.
The book was like putting the cart before the horse instead of putting the horse before the cart.
My Pastor has this book as well, and he intends to use it in a Bible study. But the difference will be that he will motivate us with the gospel of our justification, and only then go into the book.

Mature believers will understand and welcome this comparison of what people believe. They understand the intent is to come together into unity in doctrine. Out of love for one another.

You said: " apparently if you don't agree with these folks, you're out of luck" Another LIE, show me where it says that they are out of luck? In fact it says the contrary!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We in the confessional Lutheran church acknowledge that most Pentecostals are professing Christians and (as stated above) give thanks for that. (wels quote from Joel)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wels acknowledges they are professing Christians.
Yet you say that if they don't agree with us they are out of luck. And the other lies you have suggested. When clearly by this quote we show and acknowledge their faith!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you are committed to the Bible as the true, errorless Word of God or you are open to examining that claim on the basis of the Bible's testimony, you should undertake for yourself a point-by-point comparison of the teachings of the two church bodies with the Bible. (wels quote by Joel)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does Wels DEMAND everyone believe what we believe? NO!!! they tell people to do a comparison of both beliefs using the scripture!

They are saying if effect, don't believe what we believe just because we say so, DO A COMPARISON!
A person is only required to keep their conscience clear by the word of God!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">we are called to testify against the error that is a part of your confession, and testify against the danger to your soul and the souls of other Pentecostals around you that you are exposing yourself to. This is not done in self-pride or hatred of you or any Pentecostal (that would be sin) but in love for God, his truth, our own souls, and the souls of others. (WELS QUOTE BY JOEL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What does it say here, All Christians MUST testify to error that puts the souls of others in danger. This is very biblical and a very loving thing to do! To NOT do so, is pure HATRED!
It is NOT LOVING OUR BROTHERS! "and he who does not love his brother walks in darkness! And the love of God is not in him.

1John 2:10 "10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."

What does the Bible teach us to do?

1 Timothy 1:3"...so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer"

Titus 1:11 "They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach..."

James 5:19 "19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

Joel, I think I have shown that what WELS does is what God would have us do. Anyone who does not do this has been led by Satan into error. And is deceived into doing Satan's will. If your church teaches you this: and these are your words: "Kind of like Mormons actually (except on official Mormon websites we don't waste time with creating a neat little webpage that will help you systematically dissect and denounce every other denomination on the planet)" It is clear that you have been deceived. The Bible clearly shows that this kind of teaching is brotherly hatred.

If you had read all that you posted here about WELS, you would have noticed the things I pointed out as well. Nothing in the quote from Wels is "ridicule" or of a "disrespectful" nature.

What is in your heart Joel? By your words, you have slandered Wels when the quote you used clearly contains the opposite of what you are saying. Slander is a sin and it is a futile attempt to pit brother against brother. You show signs of utter contempt against me and my brothers in Christ. What is in your heart Joel?

Only Mormons are being led to Hell because they do not believe in the Jesus in the Bible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What is in your heart Joel?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mostly right now it's Irony.

Look, I don't care what WELS believes. I was just trying to point out how it feels to have your religion (a very dear, personal, and sacred part of you) undeservedly trashed. I know you think it helps to profess that it is done out of love, but it doesn't - not one bit of comfort is transferred by those words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Only Mormons are being led to Hell because they do not believe in the Jesus in the Bible.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let's see,
The bible teaches that Jesus is

The Son of God. I believe that
The Savior of the World. I believe that
The Redeemer of Mankind. I believe that
That he died on the Cross and paid for my sins. I believe that.
That on the third day he arose from the grave as the firstfruits of the Resurrection. I believe that.

What exactly is it that keeps me from having an equally valuable faith in Christ to prevent me from being saved?

Joel,

I understand how you feel like that I am "trashing your religion" And it hurts you. I don't want to hurt you Joel. I don't like the pain I have to inflict on you any more than you do! Believe me! But if I cross my arms and say nothing, you will end up in much more pain and infliction when you have to suffer all eternity in outer darkness! I hate to inflict pain on you, but if you would just listen and learn, you will see how I intend it for your good! I want to see you in heaven in the future! It is far better to inflict you now than let you be inflicted later when nothing no longer can be changed.

How then can I comfort you? That is the question.
I don't have the answer right now, I can only keep reassuring you that I care about you and pray that you will try your best to believe me.
I don't know what else to do?????

Think of it like this. Your child is going astray and doing things that will cause them to end up dead. Like for example, lets say they are drug addicts. Would you stand back and say nothing and let them go to their own destruction? Or would you speak up, even though they felt undeservedly trashed?

I'd be interested in the answer to his question...

What exactly is it that keeps me from having an equally valuable faith in Christ to prevent me from being saved?

We must believe that Jesus did everything in order to give us eternal life. Christians believe we have eternal life in the kingdom of heaven based solely on the merits of Jesus.

In the LDS, one does not get eternal life (LDS equivalent is in the celestial kingdom) in the celestial kingdom until we have done all we can do. Meaning they reject Jesus as ALL sufficient to save them and claim he is only partially sufficient to save them. This is rejecting Christ.

We will be discussing this in great detail shortly in the thread "how do you get to heaven"

No, I just never see a direct answer to his questions. They are usually just copied and pasted scripture or other things like "be patient".

I feel I have to use scripture, Why should anyone believe what I say if I don't? God does his work through the word, without it, we have nothing.

I will be answering those questions in the other thread. So I did not want to talk about it here.
and double up on the conversation.

Sorry, I will answer all his questions.

AS FOR THE BELOVED ASSEMBLY OF GOD PEEPS....
NO MILLENIAL REIGN OF CHRIST? THE WELS SCRIPTURES ARE CONFUSING AT BEST AND DONT EVEN RELATE TO THIS EVENT.
HOW ABOUT THESE FOR SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT?

The Millennial Reign of Christ
The second coming of Christ includes the rapture of the saints, which is our blessed hope, followed by the visible return of Christ with His saints to reign on earth for one thousand years.

Zechariah 14:5 [KJV/NIV]
Matthew 24:27 [KJV/NIV]
Matthew 24:30 [KJV/NIV]
Revelation 1:7 [KJV/NIV]
Revelation 19:11-14 [KJV/NIV]
Revelation 20:1-6 [KJV/NIV]
This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel,

Ezekiel 37:21,22 [KJV/NIV]
Zephaniah 3:19,20 [KJV/NIV]
Romans 11:26,27 [KJV/NIV]
and the establishment of universal peace.

Isaiah 11:6-9 [KJV/NIV]
Psalms 72:3-8 [KJV/NIV]
Micah 4:3,4 [KJV/NIV]

HELLO?

AS FOR BAPTSIM ON HOLY SPIRIT.... SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE STATEMENT PLEASE? QUOTE:
We do not see speaking in tongues and faith healing as normative for Christians today.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------END QUOTE


AG POSITION
The Baptism in the Holy Ghost
All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early Christian Church. With it comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry.

Luke 24:49 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 1:4 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 1:8 [KJV/NIV]
1 Corinthians 12:1-31 [KJV/NIV]
This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth.

Acts 8:12-17 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 10:44-46 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 11:14-16 [KJV/NIV]
Acts 15:7-9 [KJV/NIV]
With the baptism in the Holy Ghost come such experiences as:

an overflowing fullness of the Spirit, John 7:37-39 [KJV/NIV], Acts 4:8 [KJV/NIV]
a deepened reverence for God, Acts 2:43 [KJV/NIV], Hebrews 12:28 [KJV/NIV]
an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, Acts 2:42 [KJV/NIV]
and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost, Mark 16:20 [KJV/NIV]

my turn to ask about scriptural eveidence of what you believe and why....everyone and anyone. echo? a3? embie? the scripture is plain.

i will answer for you...the world and traditional christianity have these pentecostal traits peculiar and controversial...

seems to me we are called to be a peculiar people to the world. it is a shame christians in america are afraid to accept biblical doctrine that is as clear as a bell. the baptismof the HG, tongues, healing, laying on of hand s inprayer, annointing with as representative of the spirit, praying aloud, praying in tongues, etc....you guys are SO mising out of the fullness of God and believe you me....the devil is behind it...if he can keep you from the baptism of the holy ghost. you will fight him with less than maximum ammunition....
i saw this as an opportunity to share...this post is for all who deny the full gospel and more specifically acts chapter2 and a corinthians 12 and 14.
nabster

Hey Nabster, I have no clue what the AOG believe to be honest, you will have to share with me. Do you have a link that I could learn from?

When Wels talks about what you believe, it therefore is over my head. I have only been a Christian for 6 years, I got alot to learn yet.

BTW what is a peep?

I know that Wels does not believe in a rapture.

>>>

Mathew 24:21-24 "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

Revelation 13:5-10 "The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

Mathew 24:4-8 " Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."

Daniel 12:1 " 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

Mark 13:9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 " Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

>>>

Wels believes this: Revelation says that I will "...keep you from the hour of trial..."Rev 3:10 meaning that God will preserve believers through those times, not take them out of those times. (Much like he preserved the Isrealites from the plagues of Egypt.

The concern I have for those who believe in a rapture is that they will be unprepared when the end times come. And will not have the strength given by God to endure it with victory.

If you are looking for a rapture, you will not be looking for God's help and strength to prepare you for the end times, and so you could find yourselves not being able to withstand the end times, not having been built up for it, and so you "may" fall from the faith. This is a great danger to you.

Another point, it is far better and safer to plan on us being here to the very end and get prepared for that, and then be surprised by a rapture, than it is to believe in a rapture, and find out how unprepared we are for when there isn't one.

Your best bet in finding out what our views are is to go to the website www.wels.net they have a Q&A, and they will answer any question you have. If you want scriptural support, be sure to ask for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> will answer for you...the world and traditional Christianity have these Pentecostal traits peculiar and controversial...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wels does not take a stance that they are absolutely un biblical, Wels is very conservative, they are wary about it more than against it. They feel it is not normative for today, yet also they confess that God could do this if he so chooses. I guess what they are saying is that they believe that it is not normative, but certainly if the Church that has these doctrines could change their mind using scripture, they would certainly change their stance. I guess they are taking a cautious approach. For them it seems clearer to take the stance that it is not normative because other scripture on the matter causes them to be cautious. This is an uneducated guess though, perhaps you could ask that question at the website as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you will fight him with less than maximum ammunition....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You will need to fill me in on your position, and teach me. I would like to learn.
For me, I feel that I have the maximum ammunition. I have the only weapon that works, God's word. What more do I need? God has given me faith and I don't need anything else. He equips me, plants things in my path, I don't need to do anything except say: "here I am, send me" He does everything else.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AS FOR BAPTISM ON HOLY SPIRIT.... SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE STATEMENT PLEASE? QUOTE:
We do not see speaking in tongues and faith healing as normative for Christians today.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

Nabster

I have a bit more for you to add to my above post:

I read through your references and this is what I come up with.

Zec 14:5 could be refering to when Jesus comes at the end of the world, it may not be reffering to a coming to rapture us.

Mathew 24: 27-31 verse 31 says they will gather his elect. This sounds like he comes at the end, no rapture.

Rev 1:7 This could be his coming at the end time as well.

Rev 19:11-14 This too does not lead me to see a rapture, but his coming at the end.

Rev 20:1-6 Verse 5 is a difficult passage to be sure. In my study Bible it says the 1000 year reign is the period of time from Jesus to the end. It is symbolic. So it is the entire NT period. They don't believe this is referring to a rapture because Jesus said to Pilate "my kingdom is not of this world" Jn 18:36

I still think it is much safer to not expect a rapture and be prepared for the worst. Than it is to believe in a rapture and then be unprepared when the worst comes.

Eze 37:21,22
Zephaniah 3:19,20
Romans 11:26,27
Jesus has brought us universal peace.
Eph 6:15 "and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace."

The gospel is the universal peace I think these passage are referring to. It only applies to believers though. They are not talking about universal peace in the world, but peace in our hearts. His kingdom is not of this world, you have to remember.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">an overflowing fullness of the Spirit, John 7:37-39 [KJV/NIV], Acts 4:8 [KJV/NIV]
a deepened reverence for God, Acts 2:43 [KJV/NIV], Hebrews 12:28 [KJV/NIV]
an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, Acts 2:42 [KJV/NIV]
and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost, Mark 16:20 [KJV/NIV]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All believers have the Holy Spirit. So I don't understand why I need another Baptism to have the holy spirit? The kind of gifts that you are talking about were necessary as the Bible was not completed yet. The Bible is complete. We have everything we now need. Before the Bible was complete, the believers did not have everything they needed. Do you see what I am saying? The gospel brings us to faith, we are given the holy spirit, and the word, now complete, strengthens us so that we have an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost. The believers in the Bible did not have a complete Bible, WE DO.
The spirit works through the word to accomplish all these things in us now.

did jesus say he would send the comforter and that he must go? yes. and did he say we would do even greater works than he? yes. what did he mean?
the baptism of the holy spirit is not just for first century christians, the bible does not say nor teach that. it says all who seek the baptism will be given such. paul does say, i wish ye all speak in tongues.... it is for everyone. it is not required for salvation, it is not required to be an effective christian and bear fruit either. all i can say is it is an actual event in life and when you receive the fullness of the holy spirit, like overflowing cant-contain-it kind of fullness....you will never be the same. you want to know jesus not just know about him. you want to praise him directly, not just sing hymns...he becomes modern day real, he becomes a companion in all things, not just at church...your fire for him becomes like a bonfire.your intensity to share christ is always on your lips, i cant explain it fully, your spirit becomes tender towards others you may even weep for lost people, for no reason other than they are lost, you begin to see people as christ sees them....a soul in need of salvation.
your faith is increased, you are unshakeable ina world that shakes, you are able to recall scripture many times by the holy spirit's promptings. i cant explain it fully.....when AOG's get together and worship, freely i might add, the spirit inhabits the praises of his people, we praise deeply, he inhabits deeply, the presence of the holy spirit in our worship services is unlike baptist, methodist, lutheran catholic,church of christ and even mormon, we place a mojor emphasis on worship, becuase it is the holy spirit who convicts sinners of their need for jesus. if sinners are in our services, during worship, they have no doubt there is a god, jesus is real and that the holy spirit is tugging at them to receive jesus.
now tatr being said, not all assembly of god churches are the same...some are just as dead in their services as any other church. and some other denominations are on fire as well... just in general assemblies emphasize the holy spirit and his fullness.
all believers receive jesus in thier hearts and the holy spirit does come to live in them....however , just as paul asked early believers which baptism they had received...ie of water and forgiveness or of the holy spirit...we too agree...they are distinct and different. kind of like a cup gets a portion of the holy spirit at salvation, and when the baotism of the holy spirit happens, the cup now gets filled and overflows...
WHAT WAS ONCE ONLY INSIDE THE CUP IS NOW OVERFLOWING ON THE OUTSIDE TOO. IT IS A FULLNESS,
of joy, of peaise, of peace, of strength, of boldness, of comfort, of happiness, of hunger for christ, of service in ministry. i cant explain it....
te rapture is a different topic altogether and in the end we just believe we will be on the first bus out of here...whenever it is. beginning middle end doesnt matter, we will leave this world when jesus takes. we will endure to the end.
nabster

Howdy Nabster!

I don't understand though, how you line up "two" Baptism's with this verse?:

Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">....however , just as paul asked early believers which baptism they had received...ie of water and forgiveness or of the holy spirit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This verse you are refering to is the Baptism prior to Jesus death. (John the Baptist)
Not the same as our Baptism for forgiveness of sins.

this is about unity of faith. one body, one spirit, ...unity... one hope , jesus...one lord, jesus, one faith, in jesus...unity. one baptism referring to water and forgiveness of sin...one god one father, unity....
the one baptism is not speaking about the baptism in the holy ghost. most references in the bible speak of having received the holy ghost since after you were baptised.
in acts chapter 1 verse 4..jesus is speaking here and he says...4And being assembled together with them, he commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the

PROMISE OF THE FATHER, WHICH , HE SAID, YOU HAVE HEARD FROM ME;
5"FOR John truly baptised with water, but you shall be baptised with the HOLY SPIRIT NOT MANY DAYS FROM NOW'"

AND LATER IN VERSE 8
" BUT YOU SHALL RECEIVE POWER WHEN THE HOLY GHOST IS COME UPON YOU"

PLEASE CONTINUE READING EPHESIANS AFTER VERSE 6 ALL THE WAY TO VERSE16...IT IS ABOUT UNITY. NOT ABOUT BAPTISM IN SPECIFIC. HEis writing to the church in ephesus, which needs instruction as they are a new body of believers, struggling with unity amongst themselves.

here is the purpose of the book ephesians:
to unveil the "mystery" of the church as no other epistle.God's secret intention is revealed: 1) to form a body to express chrsit's fullness on earth(1:15-23) to do this by uniting one people BOTH GENTILE AND JEW, among men whom God himself dwells (2:11 - 3:7) to equip, empower
and mature hid people to the end that they extend Christ's victory over evil (3:10-20; 6:12-20)
when taken into context properly...i believe you will see the stance of the assemblies and why...regarding the interpretation of this verse, to support.."there is no baptism of the holy ghost because there is one baptism"
thanks.
nabster

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">5"FOR John truly baptised with water, but you shall be baptised with the HOLY SPIRIT NOT MANY DAYS FROM NOW'"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But John's baptism was prior to Jesus having completed his work, The Holy Spirit could not come until after Jesus ascended. (when I go to the father I will send the councellor...)

Are you saying that the "mystery" is the 3 things you listed? I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you or not??

Could you clarify for me and then I will read it again?

Thanks Nab!

that mystery was the uniting of jew AND GENTILE.
the holy spirit came when jesus left and ssent him. this is why he said not many days from now...he had to leave.you are correct.
my point is , this scripture regarding one baptism, is about unity of people and faith andoverall complete unity...NOT that the baptism of the holy ghost is discluded.
nab

I don't think I agree that the mystery was uniting the jew and gentile, I think the mystery is the gospel. Read the book from the start.

I don't get it just yet Nab, Unity, I agree, but unity in what? One faith, one lord, one baptism...

We cannot have unity in two lords, so why two baptism's?

the gospel was already revealed, the church at ephesus needed understanding of the jew and gentile concept. it is about unity of gospel to ALL, however.i see your point.

how do you reconcile all the other scripture regarding holy ghost and baptism thereof? the same paul speaking here , tells in corinthians that he speaks in tongues more than all of you, and that he wished they did also. and "hich baptism have ye received?" scripture...when he explains the baptism of the holy ghost. i still contend very plainly , that the one baptism scripturte is NOT referring to or eliminating the baptism of the holy ghost...after all ...the holy ghost IS God/JEsus...not different really, just mo betta.
You understand , JEsus received the HOly Spirit before his ministrry began? when the dove descended, it was a fullness thereof. Jesus , obviously ,did not need tongues, because he knew the will of the Father at all times. I contend it is the Spirit who gave Him the ability to do miracles and do ministry as He did. "The SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS, TO SET CAPTIVES FREE,ETC..' my own paraphrase/

He needed the holy spirit and annointing just as we do.why would jesus tell the apostles to taryy a little while until the holy ghost comes...they were already baptised and saved? this supernatural event was the beginning of Christ's church and the Holy Spirit gave the annointing and boldness to go forth and preach the good news. Today we still need the annointing to go and preach the good news.The word of God gives the wisdom and answers, the holy spirit shows us how to use it....
The scripture in Ephesians is about unity and has nothing to do with the Baptism of Holy Ghost...Being that the BAptism of HG is controversial to many christiana i can see why a particular denom. would interpret this way.
but again how do you reconcile other verses regarding the baptism in th holy ghost?
nab
nab

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">how do you reconcile other verses regarding the baptism in th holy ghost?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you copy/paste the verses you are refering to for me? And the book and verse? I am not sure which ones you are specifically talking about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the holy ghost IS God/JEsus...not different really, just mo betta.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you mean the Holy Spirit is better than God/Jesus?