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Re: Christians #33727 11/21/05 06:56 PM
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You misunderstand the concept of the priesthood in the NT

The priesthood in the NT is all believers, men, women and children.

The OT priests offered up gifts and sacrifices for sins.

Jesus fulfilled both these roles.

The NT priesthood offers up the gifts and sacrifices of praise and a Christian life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The "new" nature of the covenant shifted the emphasis of the priesthood to it's service oriented aspects of healing, casting out devils.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mathew 7:22-24 “Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The Priesthood as I understand it from my reading of the Bible is the "power and authority" to direct and guide the church.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mathew 28:18 “Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Jesus alone has authority on earth.

Colossians 2:15 “And having disarmed the powers and authorities,”

Ephesians 3:16 “I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,”

Power comes through the spirit, not through the priesthood

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Martin Luther's chief objection was that the Catholic Church had forfeited their authority through their unholy actions. To believe that authority can be forfeit, means that authority must exist.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Forfeited the authority to be servants of the word and the people by placing themselves in the position to be leaders of the word and the people.


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Re: Christians #33728 11/21/05 08:49 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mathew 7:22-24 “Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but you see, I look at this verse and I see people doing works "in his name" but I don't see people doing works "in his authority" and to my mind, that is why he says "I never knew you." They don't have the authority/approval/recognition to do works in the name of Christ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mathew 28:18 “Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Jesus alone has authority on earth.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">except for the fact that He granted that authority to bind "on earth" and bind "in heaven" as well as loose "on earth" and loose "in heaven" to his Apostles in Matthew 18


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Christians #33729 11/21/05 09:32 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Colossians 2:15 “And having disarmed the powers and authorities,”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this verse is clearly referring to earthly powers and authorities. Especially when depending on the translation "authorities" is translated as "principalities"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ephesians 3:16 “I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,”

Power comes through the spirit, not through the priesthood
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Other translations read "strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;" might, power, authority. All of these words are fairly interchangeable in english. however, the Hebrew words are different

Eph 3:16 the word for might or power is "dunamis"
Most often this word is translated to mean "power" "mighty work" "strength" "miracle" or "might"

in Acts 8:19 the word for power is "exousia" Most often this word is translated to mean "power" "authority" "right" or "jursdiction.

I hope you can see how words like authority, right, and jurisdiction are different from words like mighty work, strength, miracle, or might. In these two verses to different types of power are being discussed.

In Eph 3:16 I believe they are talking about power that God places in you to overcome evil and resist temptation.

Acts 8:19 is part of several scriptures which tell and interesting story about power and authority. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:


Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Italics are mine - these people were converted but couldn't recieve the Holy Ghost unless authorized servants came and gave it to them.
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)


Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
laying on of hands was necessary

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,


Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Simon recognized that the there was a power associated with granting the Holy Ghost. he wanted that power and authority and suspected he could buy it
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.


Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This example is clearly talking about a higher power and authority from God - Simon knew the Apostles could grant it unto him, for they had that authority already. Paul and John knew that his heart was not right to recieve it and he did not.

As for Martin Luther, I think you're wrong. I think he was cognizant of the fact that once God grants authority and power that it is limited by the personal righteousness of whoever is holding it. He believed at one time the Catholic Church did have the authority to act in the name of God but that it had lost that authority.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Christians #33730 11/22/05 05:47 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colossians 2:15 “And having disarmed the powers and authorities,”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this verse is clearly referring to earthly powers and authorities. Especially when depending on the translation "authorities" is translated as "principalities"


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 3:16 “I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,”

Power comes through the spirit, not through the priesthood

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other translations read "strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;" might, power, authority. All of these words are fairly interchangeable in english. however, the Hebrew words are different

Eph 3:16 the word for might or power is "dunamis"
Most often this word is translated to mean "power" "mighty work" "strength" "miracle" or "might"

in Acts 8:19 the word for power is "exousia" Most often this word is translated to mean "power" "authority" "right" or "jursdiction.

I hope you can see how words like authority, right, and jurisdiction are different from words like mighty work, strength, miracle, or might. In these two verses to different types of power are being discussed.

In Eph 3:16 I believe they are talking about power that God places in you to overcome evil and resist temptation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LIke you said, the Spirit is in all believers, That is where the power comes from.

Each and every believer has the spirit.
I am no man's slave, I have freedom in Christ.
I don't need prophets to help me understand, God helps me understand. I have direct access to God himself. He will teach me what he wants to teach me himself, through his word. Why would I follow a prophet? When Jesus is my prophet, and he LIVES! He is not DEAD.


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Re: Christians #33731 11/22/05 05:08 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LIke you said, the Spirit is in all believers, That is where the power comes from.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, twisting my words or misunderstanding what I've written and taking them out of the context in which they were written. I included the discussion of different Hebrew words that are translated to mean power solely to say the opposite of what you've concluded from my statement.

The Spirit does convey a certain power, however, in Biblical context, it cannot in anyway be construed to be the same "power & authority" that is given to the leadership of Christ's church on the earth.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Christians #33732 11/22/05 06:55 PM
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Are you saying the spirit is NOT in all believers? That is all that I am claiming you have said. Then I added my comment that the spirit is where the power comes from.

In the future, could you just say that I am misinterpreting what you are saying instead of telling me I am twisting your words? When you say that it comes across as: I am intentionally trying to do somthing by twisting your words. I have no intention to twist your words Joel, what good would that do? Just as I am sure you did not intend to misinterpret my words to you.

Thanks! smile


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Re: Christians #33733 11/22/05 07:13 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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No, I cannot say you are misinterpreting my words when you twisting them. And you've done it again.

I am not saying that the spirit is NOT in all believers.

when you write.. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LIke you said, the Spirit is in all believers, That is where the power comes from. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You begin the sentence with "like you said" and then throw in your assertion after a comma, not a period. That means you are saying that I said, "the spirit is where the power comes from."

I guess you're not trying to twist my words, but that is the end effect. You make it appear as though i've said something I have not said.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Christians #33734 11/22/05 07:25 PM
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Sorry. frown I am always thinking about what I am going to say and not really paying attention to proper grammer, I never did well at that in school! And I often get it wrong! Keep that in mind because it could happen again! smile

I will try to be more careful, but at the same time, could you point that out or ask before you say somthing that comes across like I would intentionally twist your words? I need schooling in grammer....problem is that it bores me so much, I can never learn it cause I can't seem to pay attention! sleep


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