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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33441 12/07/05 11:36 PM
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Do you falter daily? keep in mind the list of sins I gave you earlier.


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33442 12/08/05 04:10 PM
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Most likely.

I don't really keep track of my thoughts so much, but most of the time, my actions tend to line up with what I believe. It's the thought stuff that I and most Christians struggle with. I don't find it that hard to keep the BIG commandments.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33443 12/08/05 10:35 PM
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So you will be found spotless by obedience and repentance?


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33444 12/08/05 10:44 PM
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No. As a Christian I just don't see any point in sinning when I can avoid it.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33445 12/08/05 11:16 PM
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could you explain that please? I don't see the connection between my question and your answer.


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33446 12/08/05 11:18 PM
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You asked if I would be found spotless "by obedience and repentance" I answered "No"

I'm obedient and repent when I'm not because I don't see any point in living in rebellion toward God.

I'm found spotless because through my faith in Christ my sins are washed away in his blood.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33447 12/08/05 11:39 PM
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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33448 12/09/05 12:40 AM
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.


From the book: The miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball

"As a second great boon to us the Lord Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map - a code of laws and commandments whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. This set of laws and ordinances is known as the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the sole repository of this priceless program in its fulness, which is made available to those who accept it...NONE CAN ENTER INTO ETERNAL LIFE OTHER THAN BY THE CORRECT DOOR _ JESUS CHRIST AND HIS COMMANDMENTS ...One cannot receive salary without having met satisfactorily the conditions of his employment. One cannot ride the bus, train, or plane without having paid the fare,
(page 8)

Here is another very clear quote that shows you enter eternal life by Faith (Jesus Christ) and his commandments. THAT IS FAITH AND WORKS.

It also says that codes and laws IS HOW YOU OBTAIN PERFECTION.

Anyone who reads any of the sources I have quoted will not have saving faith! It is too clear.


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33449 12/09/05 04:16 PM
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So is your plan to just ignore everything I post that detracts from your point?

"The Miracle of Forgiveness" is a handy book for the sincerely repentant. It is not a book of Scripture or part of the LDS canon of Scripture.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33450 12/09/05 04:31 PM
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I spent some time reading the BOM last night and I am trying with all my energy, to put together all the things I have read in LDS sources over the years, and what you are saying to me, together. It is a struggle for me, to try and put your words together with LDS sources. To fit them together and get the picture that you want me to. I am trying! IT does not help, that your answers are sometimes far too short. They leave me hanging in a place of confusion and this causes the struggle for me to put it all together. It would be easier if you would explain things in way more detail. But I am trying to put it together, to see where you are coming from. I have been thinking about your words alot.


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33451 12/09/05 05:46 PM
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The Process of attaining perfection can be two different things.

First in this life we can be perfected in Christ despite our imperfections and shortcomings.

However, Mormons also believe in "Eternal Progression" meaning after we die and are resurrected, we will be able to continue down the path of literal perfection. This perfection means that Christ has enabled us to overcome our human weakness through forgiveness, cleansing and resurrection, now we have an eternity to be perfected in knowledge, glory, and power, but mostly Knowledge. Doctrine & Covenants 130:18-19 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mormons believe that all correct knowledge is part of the Gospel. In other words anything that is true is part of the knowledge of God and he wants to impart unto us that knowledge. Some of it may not be necessary at this particular time and place, but it is still part of the knowledge of God.

It strikes me that another verse in section 130 may illuminate this discussion a little. verses 20-21 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the law spoken of in these verses is the law of faith or grace. When we come to faith, we are driven to obedience by faith while under grace. Maybe I've confused you more, but this is a key verse of Mormon doctrine. Everything we do is predicated or based on our Faith.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33452 12/10/05 02:15 PM
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after resurrection how much knowledge can be obtained....all of it? can we become as knowledgable as God? You say He wants to give us al knowledge.
Why would a progression need to occur after resurrection...when we are in heaven we are perfected. to continue to progress in knowledge would seem futile since the work of salvation and the age is over. the spreading of the gospel i mean on earth. knowledge is no longer needed in heaven where ther is no sin, no sickness, no wrongdoing, no rebellion,NO SIN.
why the continued need for knowledge. Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is folly.
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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33453 12/10/05 03:54 PM
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i personally think the amount of sonic coney cheese dogs is directly porportional to the brownie points you have in heaven.


-hanging in there- Jenna Clark
Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33454 12/10/05 05:23 PM
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gonna have to agree...tasty morsel for my belly.
cherry limeade to boot.


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33455 12/10/05 08:40 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First in this life we can be perfected in Christ despite our imperfections and shortcomings</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could you explain this in detail?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the law spoken of in these verses is the law of faith or grace. When we come to faith, we are driven to obedience by faith while under grace. Maybe I've confused you more, but this is a key verse of Mormon doctrine. Everything we do is predicated or based on our Faith.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What do you mean by "the law of faith or grace" ?
I think I understand what you mean when you say: "everything we do is predicated or based on our faith" I could be wrong though. Let me give it a go.
Your faith is based on Jesus' ressurection and so all mankind, good and evil, will be ressurected. Nobody excluded.
Your faith then moves to Jesus who died for your sins. (sins of Adam or all sins???)
I am assuming all sins past, present and future.
But you only get to realize this payment of sin on your behalf, "after" you have lived a life in obedience to God's commands. Correct? Is this what you mean by saved by grace after all you can do?? So that it is faith in ressurection and faith in Jesus having paid the debt to God is what moves you to obedience. If you remain faithful, obeying the commands (not perfection) then the debt Jesus paid for you will take effect.Is this correct?


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33456 12/12/05 04:58 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">why the continued need for knowledge. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nabster, it's a Mormon thing. Think about it, if we are to ultimately become like God, we would need to have that knowledge. We believe that eternity and creation are an eternal round. When this creative cycle ends with the second coming of Christ, I believe others may be just beginning, if we are to particpate in that work together with God, then we need to understand it.

Echo </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your faith is based on Jesus' ressurection and so all mankind, good and evil, will be ressurected. Nobody excluded.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not exactly, my faith is based on the whole of Jesus' mission and I do not really bother parceling it out. Yes, all man will be resurrected "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I believe is how the Bible puts it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your faith then moves to Jesus who died for your sins. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He died for the sins of all mankind - Adam included.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But you only get to realize this payment of sin on your behalf, "after" you have lived a life in obedience to God's commands. Correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really, you can feel the effects of accepting Christ's atonement in the here and now. You can feel of his redeeming grace and forgiveness and the Peace that he brings to each soul willing to accept it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But you only get to realize this payment of sin on your behalf, "after" you have lived a life in obedience to God's commands. Correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, a better way to understand it is that we have the ability to "fall from grace" We will always be able to "fall from grace" until we die. While our salvation in Christ is sure, it us ourselves that are not. We can screw it up, deny the faith, leave God, fall from grace, whatever you want to call it.

The other point "Saved by grace after all that we can do." I'll try and explain again.

If I was perfect and didn't believe in Christ, I would be damned. Anything I did could not be counted unto me as righteousness because I did not obey the first law - the first law is "Have Faith in Christ's atonement to save you.

My works cannot save me, they are merely a result of me living obediently to my faith.

If for some reason I am not living obediently to the faith I have in Christ, then maybe my faith isn't what you call saving faith. For if it was I would try to live a life of faith.

the law of faith or grace is that we must surrender to Christ and believe in him, that his is the only name given under heaven whereby we can be saved and that he alone can redeem us of our sins. This faith will normally generate in us a love for Jesus Christ. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." If we love Jesus obedience to our faith will require of us to keep his commandments - the keeping of the commandments doesn't save us however, it is just a manifestation of true, sincere faith. Our faith in Christ alone saves us.

Any other "requirements" for salvation you read about in any LDS literature you read should be understood as the result of true, saving faith.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33457 12/12/05 07:22 PM
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When you say Jesus paid for your sin, what do you mean and how does it apply to you and when?

Did Jesus only pay for Adam's sin, so that you are made clean and have a fresh start from there, now being responsible for your own sin?

When you go to the judgement what will take place?


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33458 12/12/05 08:17 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When you say Jesus paid for your sin, what do you mean and how does it apply to you and when?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Anybody else think we've already been down this road?

He paid for the sins of all mankind. Me, you, Adam, nabster, etc. etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When you go to the judgement what will take place?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe I will be judged worthy to inherit the celestial kingdom. You'll have to wait for an official transcript of the proceedings.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33459 12/12/05 08:22 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe I will be judged worthy to inherit the celestial kingdom</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Based on what?


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Re: What gets you to Heaven? #33460 12/12/05 08:25 PM
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What website do you do Mormon outreach for?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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