Mouse

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's what religion is all about isn't it? You people worry more about your own salvation that the good of others.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not worried about my Salvation at all. It is done, Jesus did it all! I am however worried about Joel's Salvation. The Teachings of the LDS Church contradict Scripture.

The LDS believes they are saved by faith and works.

Here is what they believe:

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved "BY" obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
(The Articles of Faith, LDS)

By this statement and many, many others, this indentifies them as lost and not saved.

Romans 9:31-32 "but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Ephesians 2: 8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Therefore, it would NOT be loving to let Joel continue in the deception that is leading him to Hell. The fact that I am doing what I am doing shows that I care about the eternal destiny of Mormons.

Hope that helps.


.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> the LDS believe they are saved by faith and works </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fine, you are clearly the foremost expert on Mormon doctrine around here, so you must obviously be right. Far be it for a Mormon to point out that by taking isolated verses from the Bible, it appears that the Bible teaches salvation by faith and works. That being the case, when you do the same thing and view LDS scripture and statements in isolation, it appears that Mormons teach salvation by faith and works as well. I mean it would be absolutely silly for a Mormon to say that you are taking one verse out of context of the total doctrine of the LDS church. Even more uninformed of a Mormon to suggest that someone from WELS might better understand a verse about "being saved by grace, after all we can do," if they were to read a few verses after it where it says "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." and point out that the verse a few later doesn't say the source we look to for a remission of our sins is our works, but rather Christ.

Far be it from me to dare explain to our resident WELSian expert on Mormonism that Mormons believe the first law of the gospel is Faith in Christ and that everything else is derived from that - obedience, works, everything comes from faith in Christ. I would be wasting my time and most probably wrong if I told anyone from WELS that Mormons believe all our works, all our obedience and even all our lives are an absolute waste, if they are not motivated and derived solely from a love for and faith in Jesus Christ.


I guess it is just plain silly of me to think that I would know and understand the doctrine I've studied for over half my lifetime better than a member of WELS.

I apologize for my naivety.

Show me using the BOM where you say I went wrong. And could you try treating me with some respect,patience and kindness, please? I am doing my best to see if what you are saying matches what the BOM says. Your Job is to patiently, lovingly and respectfully teach me.
None of the quotes you have posted so far from the BOM have me convinced.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Show me using the BOM where you say I went wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I already have and I just did again in the last post. Scroll to the top of the page.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Show me using the BOM where you say I went wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">simply because it doesn't jive with your version of Mormonism. Look, you've either decided for yourself or been told by someone what it is Mormons believe. so that when you read a verse from the Book of Mormon that says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">which pretty plainly states that Christ is the only source we can look to for a remission of our sins and doesn't mention works at all. or this </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2 Nephi 2:5-10
quote:
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5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's at least as clear as the Bible in stating we are saved by grace.

Or of course this, which I also already posted </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.
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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All of these are at least as clear as the Bible. Additionally, the Bible contains plenty of language that seems to indicate salvation by grace and works. When the Bible says it, you have no problem understanding that it is talking about works motivated by love and faith in Christ and not to earn salvation. When the Book of Mormon says it, you refuse to understand. the only conclusion I can come to is that you're so shocked to find something in Mormonism that is different from what is posted on the WELS site that you simply can't believe it. You find the Mormon church so diabolical on a personal level that you can't believe that they could do or say anything that is good whatsoever. You're so blinded in your prejudice against Mormonism, that you can't even credit us when we are, in your opinion, actually right.

The thing is Joel, that you say that I am taking these verses I have quoted from the BOM and the Doctrines and Covenants out of context.

You claim the BOM and the D&C are God's word!

So if what you are telling me is true, then you need to use that very same word of God to show me how I have taken it out of context.
If the BOM is God's word, proof lies therein and not in the word of any man.

The quotes I've just shared with you are from the Book of Mormon. So, what's your point?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can come to is that you're so shocked to find something in Mormonism that is different from what is posted on the WELS site that you simply can't believe it. You find the Mormon church so diabolical on a personal level that you can't believe that they could do or say anything that is good whatsoever. You're so blinded in your prejudice against Mormonism, that you can't even credit us when we are, in your opinion, actually right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are again trying to create war between us. Joel, I find it so difficult to believe what you say just because of your actions alone. Stop making war and turn towards peace Joel.

I will read the BOM and surrounding context and get back to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will read the BOM and surrounding context and get back to you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">why didn't you the first and second time I posted it?

I'm not trying to create a war. I'm stating a fact. You have a bias against Mormonism, not the people, but the doctrine. You've said so yourself. You've actually said, "I hate Mormon doctrine." You find the doctrine to be devlish in nature that even after I've given you multiple examples of LDS scripture showing that we do believe in salvation by grace, you won't accept it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">why didn't you the first and second time I posted it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am sorry, there is just so much going on here and the converstions get easily side-tracked and then I forget where we were! Sorry. Thanks for the reminder!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">even after I've given you multiple examples of LDS scripture showing that we do believe in salvation by grace, you won't accept it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is a little more complicated than that. The LDS and Christianity define a lot of biblical terms in different ways and so when you say somthing that sounds absolutely right on, looking up definitions of biblical words compeltely alters what you are saying. This makes it a bit more complicated. It is like trying to learn a whole different language.

Now, on a lighter note, could you stop posting before we get sidetracked again and give me some time to read the BOM and the quotes you gave me.
Thanks Joel! Your a pal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LDS and Christianity define a lot of biblical terms in different ways and so when you say somthing that sounds absolutely right on, looking up definitions of biblical words compeltely alters what you are saying. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now I'm not intending to be critical here, but this is the type of stuff you read on most anti-Mormon websites. Every website I've been to or book I've read about "witnessing to Mormons" begins with something about how Mormons define things differently than most Christians. It's really a diversionary tactic to make those who will witness to Mormons not trust a single word a Mormon says as true, "because we define those words differently." In essence that's pretty much bunk. It's not as complicated as they make it out to be.

I'll be honest here as well, because you've said this thing about definitions, I have a hard time believing that you've done all the research on your own using solely LDS resources. This is an anti-Mormon, unsubstantiated claim.

The only difference I can think of that is germaine to this discussion is Heaven. When LDS people are talking about Heaven, they are talking about the Celestial Kingdom and that Kingdom only. The other two are most normally associated with Hell for reasons I've explained already.

Everything else, there are no differences in definitions.

Alma Chapter 5 begins with an introduction summarizing what the topic of the entire chapter is.

This is the intro:

To Gain Salvation, men must repent and keep the commandments, be born again, cleanse their garments through the blood of Christ, be humble and strip themselves from pride and envy, and do the works of righteousness..."


You lost me here already. This intro says very clearly that in order to gain salvation men "MUST" do all those things.

Joel, nothing is more clear than this, you are messing with my mind indeed.

If you were saved by faith alone, it would say:

"To gain Salvation, men must just have faith"

.


Let's ask all the other folks here what they think.

Anybody as confused as I am?

The context in which a person must understand a scripture is the entirety of the doctrine from which it comes. Not a single verse not a single chapter. Otherwise.

James 2:20
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and James 2:22
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">James 2:24 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">James 2:26 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In a vacuum, these all appear to say that faith alone cannot save us. But in the context of the entirety of the Bible it's clear that there is a vital relationship between faith and works, but that it is our faith that saves us and works are merely a byproduct of that faith.

I can easily imagine a chapter summary for James 2 that says "Faith without works is dead." and leaves it at that. Again making one possibly think that the Bible is preaching salvation by faith and works together.

To be honest, I'm certain many Mormons place more emphasis on works than they should, but that's a danger in any denomination. What I'm telling you, is that the proper understanding of the LDS doctrine on faith and works is that works are generated by faith.

ON the other hand, I do believe, that works can help bring (not alone mind you, but help) a person to faith, due to a verse I read in John 7:17 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">that has Jesus saying if we do his will, we'll know (which I interpret as meaning they will come to the faith). Doing brings them to faith - doing doesn't save us, but it can help bring us to the faith.

As for Alma chapter 5, it was written prior to the coming of Christ and the audience is a bunch of folks who despite their faith in Christ, because he hasn't yet come to fulfill the law of Moses, are still required to live under the law.

the same is true of what you read in 2 Nephi 25:23-26 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was written Between 559 and 545 B.C. and as such they were still living under the law. Even though they had faith in Christ, he had not yet fulfilled the law, so because of their faith in him they abided by the law until it should be fulfilled.

Alma 5, if you continued to read the introduction, instead of stopping after finding evidence supporting your opinion, you would have read </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Good Shepherd calleth his people—Those who do evil works are children of the devil—Alma testifies of the truth of his doctrine and commands men to repent—Names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life. [About 83 B.C.]
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just some background on the Book of Mormon. It begins in Israel around 600 BC. A prophet contemporary with Jeremiah in the OT is warned to flee for his life and take his family and he will be lead to a promised land. The Lord leads them across the wilderness to the sea, where his son Nephi is instructed by the Lord to build a boat and take them across the sea to the promised land.

The family of course grows and encounters others once there and a civilization develops. There are wars and conflicts and prophets and martyrs and the whole nine yards.

Many years pass and finally in about 5 AD a prophet named Samuel prophecies that the Christ that many prophets had taught about was soon to be Born.

In 3 Nephi chapter 1, we learn about the signs given of Christ's birth to those not in Jerusalem and in 3 Nephi 8 or 9 we learn of the destruction that followed his crucifixion even in the New World.

In 3 Nephi 11, the people of the Book of Mormon are visited by a Resurrected Jesus, where he teaches them the same gospel he taught in Jerusalem.

In essence, the Book of Mormon shows that God is truly God of all mankind and no respecter of persons. God loves one nation as much as another. Judah was a chosen people and the Savior lived and walked among them. But that doesn't mean he didn't love the rest of the world. Jesus loved and died for all mankind. Those in the Book of Mormon were visited by him and I believe many others were visited during the 40 day period prior to his ascension recorded in Acts 1.

Over time after Christ's visit, the people sunk into Apostacy and in about 420 AD the last believer in Christ hid the Book of Mormon in a hill and was presumably killed.

It was revealed to Joseph Smith where the record was hidden and he translated it by the gift and power of God.

I'll explain a little further.

In the Book of Mormon, prior to Christ, you have a lot of prophets emphasizing the Law, but it is with the understanding that they are keeping the Law only because Christ has not yet fulfilled it.

At the same time as they emphasize the law, they teach that faith in Christ is ultimately what saves and not the principles of the law.

I think we are under the same obligation today. We live under grace, but because of our faith we are asked to at least put forth a decent effort to do all the stuff Jesus asked of us. If we don't do we really have faith?

What makes you righteous before God?
Do you have to be perfect entering heaven?
How do you become perfect?
What does it mean to wash your robe in the blood of the lamb?
Where in the BOM can I find the fullness of the gospel?
Is the book of Mormon put together in date order?
So from 3Nephi 11 and forward is all what was written after Jesus' ressurection?
And everything prior to 3Nephi 11 before the ressurection?
Why are there no maps in the BOM?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What makes you righteous before God?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Personally, I think we convict ourselves before God. At the day of judgement. I believe we will know in our hearts as will God if we are truly righteous. In my mind it would basically be a barometer of my faith. Am I valiant in my faith in Christ, or have I let that faith die by not acting on it?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you have to be perfect entering heaven?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes - for no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How do you become perfect? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moroni 10:32-33 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We are made perfect in the blood of Christ that was shed for us.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What does it mean to wash your robe in the blood of the lamb?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's some pretty grotesque biblical imagery. It means to have our sins washed away (figuratively speaking, our sins will stain our robes or garments or whatever the scriptural word that is used) in the blood of Christ so that we are made pure and holy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where in the BOM can I find the fullness of the gospel?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">pages 1 - 535

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is the book of Mormon put together in date order?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mostly
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So from 3Nephi 11 and forward is all what was written after Jesus' ressurection?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the Book of Ether was an abridgement of an ancient record made by Moroni (a book of Mormon Prophet). It is about a people that were lead to the promised land after the incident with the tower of Babel. Some of it is just Moroni waxing forth about the gospel but most is a record of the people. It spans the period of time from roughly 2000 BC to 600 BC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And everything prior to 3Nephi 11 before the ressurection?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">More or less, there is a small one chapter book called "Words of Mormon" right after the "book of Omni."
Up until the end of the "Book of Omni" everything is in the Author's own words (Nephi, Jacob, Enos, etc.). Mormon inserts a little comment there to note that from this point forward, He would be abridging the Nephite record. So his abridgement comprises Mosiah through Mormon 6, when he dies. At that point Moroni, Mormon's son, picks up and as the last believer in Christ, finishes the book.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why are there no maps in the BOM?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For the record, there are no maps in the Bible either. Any map that your version of the Bible may have was added after the fact and not part of the original text. That being the case, there is no reason to expect maps in the Book of Mormon as it is a book of scripture and not a historical textbook.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Personally, I think we convict ourselves before God. At the day of judgement. I believe we will know in our hearts as will God if we are truly righteous. In my mind it would basically be a barometer of my faith. Am I valiant in my faith in Christ, or have I let that faith die by not acting on it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So, do you get judged by God for the righteousness for which you have attempted to live all your life?

Because we all sin, how do you know what is valiant and what is not? What I mean is, how do you know that you have led a valiant life when sin is very much a part of your life as well?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So if we all sin, what does deny yourself of all ungodliness mean? What I mean is how do you know wether you have denied enough...or done enough... what is the guiding line?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's some pretty grotesque biblical imagery. It means to have our sins washed away (figuratively speaking, our sins will stain our robes or garments or whatever the scriptural word that is used) in the blood of Christ so that we are made pure and holy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I did not understand your explanation. Do you already have all your sins washed away? Or is this an ongoing thing? or is this something that happens at some later point in time,like at death?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where in the BOM can I find the fullness of the gospel?
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pages 1 - 535</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am confused, the people in the earlier part of the BOM were under the law because Jesus had not come yet. But the whole BOM is the fulness of the Gospel?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That being the case, there is no reason to expect maps in the Book of Mormon as it is a book of scripture and not a historical textbook. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In my mind, Maps gives real validity to the message of the Book. God is real and he exists. Maps and archeological evidence are a remarkable witness to the truth of a book. Perhaps you should recommend to Church Authorities to include Maps in the BOM?

Look at the order:

1. Come unto Christ
2. Be perfected in him
3. deny yourselves of ungodliness by loving God with all your heart, might, mind and strength.

We are first perfected in him and then we are asked to continue to strive to live a life of a disciple of Christ by eschewing evil and sin to the best of our ability. As we will always prove inadequate we rely on the merits and mercy of Christ to continually perfect us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I did not understand your explanation. Do you already have all your sins washed away? Or is this an ongoing thing? or is this something that happens at some later point in time,like at death?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think you can understand the effects of Christ's atonement in a linear timeframe. Christ fulfilled the law at the meridian of time, but all those who exercised faith in him prior to his sacrifice are as equally covered by his atonement as we are. I think when your sins become washed away is irrelevant as long as they are at some point washed away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am confused, the people in the earlier part of the BOM were under the law because Jesus had not come yet. But the whole BOM is the fulness of the Gospel?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't you find any value in the Old Testament. I do. I find much of the Gospel of Christ in the OT as much is a sign and type of Christ's coming. Moreover, the prophets of the OT spoke plainly about Christ and his mission, the quotes of 2 Nephi 25 that I've posted three or four times illustrate that they understood not only what it means to live under the law but also what it means to live under grace.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In my mind, Maps gives real validity to the message of the Book. God is real and he exists. Maps and archeological evidence are a remarkable witness to the truth of a book. Perhaps you should recommend to Church Authorities to include Maps in the BOM?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">sure, part of the problem there is in 3 Nephi 8 or 9, there is a verse that records the destruction that followed the Savior's crucifixion as having "changed the whole face of the land." That being the case reconstructing a map would be difficult. Moreover, the Biblical world has constantly been in contact with history since the time of the Bible as such map reconstruction is much easier. The Book of Mormon people's were not in contact with any form of western civilization and modern mapmaking until 1492. This makes map reconstruction difficult. However, that hasn't stopped some overzealous Mormons from producing books like John Sorenson's "Ancient American Map of the Book of Mormon" and others of that ilk.

you missed some of my questions.
first, I am still unclear about your first comments

And these questions you missed

Because we all sin, how do you know what is valiant and what is not? What I mean is, how do you know that you have led a valiant life when sin is very much a part of your life as well?

So if we all sin, what does deny yourself of all ungodliness mean? What I mean is how do you know wether you have denied enough...or done enough... what is the guiding line?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because we all sin, how do you know what is valiant and what is not? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't really tell you. I don't think it's an objective standard. Your relationship with Christ is entirely a personal matter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">what is the guiding line?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There isn't one. It isn't so cut and dry. Do your best and when you falter, repent. That's as good as I can tell you.