</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
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In Christian theology, we are already forgiven!

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We are? So tomorrow I can go out and sleep around and cheat on my wife, because I've already been forgiven right? I can go and rob the liquor store, because I've already been forgiven right? I can bring a gun to work and shoot anyone who disagrees with me because I've already been forgiven right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Romans 4:7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered."

Hebrews 10:17-19 ""Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."[a] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,"

1 John 2:12 "I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name."

***Note especially Hebrews 10:18. It says that sins are forgiven and there is no longer any sacrifice for sin! Why? Because Jesus' sacrifice was all that is required to permanently grant us forgiveness for all our sin! The sin of the world.

Jesus died for ALL people, not just for believers.

Romans 5:6 “6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:10 “10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son,…”

So my answer is yes, those who live the way you describe ARE FORGIVEN.

THOSE WHO REJECT THE FAITH THAT TELLS THEM THEY ARE FORGIVEN, REJECT THE FORGIVENESS THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN. (Not Yelling, just emphasizing)

Now that you are forgiven, you are declared perfectly righteous and Holy. Believe it and you have the guarentee of eternal life NOW!

Isn't committing one of those acts in essence rejecting the faith that tells them they are forgiven? I mean, the faith tells us not to do those things so, doing them is rejecting the faith, isn't it?

I guess if you killed someone and felt bad about it, then maybe you're not rejecting the faith. However, what if you only felt bad because you were caught, is that rejecting the faith?

If we don't need to ask for forgiveness then why does Acts 2:37-38 say </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Peter tells them to repent. If that's not asking for forgiveness for sin, then what is it?

This is an honest question, aimed at truly trying to understand where you're coming from.

Echo,

This is actually quite interesting. I've found another verse I'm curious to get your take on.

According to you, once we've accepted Christ, we are forgiven for all past, present and future sin. So when we find ourselves in sin we must do nothing in order to be forgiven. Is that right?

So I was thinking about this and I found another verse in 1 John 1:9 that contains an "If...Then" statement regarding repentence. It says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If we confess, then God forgives. That's what it essentially says. Or does it mean something I've overlooked?

So here's my main questions:

Is doing the sin in the first place a rejection of the faith that teaches us not to do them and thereby a negation of your pre-forgiveness idea?

If we aren't sorry for what we've done are we still forgiven? Moreover, if we are truly sorry for what we've done, won't our natural reaction be to set things right?

If we don't confess our wrongdoing to God are we still forgiven? 1 John 1:9 seems to indicate that confession to God is necessary.

If we don't cease from the sin and do it no more are we forgiven or is that, once again rejecting the faith?

Lastly, the word Repent in the NT is often translated from the Greek word "metanoeo". It's a verb, which means it's an active word, the Biblical definition of metanoeo is:

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

To me this seems like doing something on the part of the repenter, and not merely just recognizing we've already been forgiven.

Joel,

I am going to answer all your sincere questions.
We are discussing the same topic in the Mormon thread. So should we discuss it all there?

I think all the confusion we have is because we are covering too much territory at once. We need to go through this one step by step. So perhaps you could make note of all these questions and bring them up individually at each step. Does that sound okay with you?

if all sin is forgiven for ever at the point of salvation, including future sin, why must we examine ourselves and ask forgiveness of any sin prior to taking communion? why does jesus in the lords prayer, the perfect prayer when teraching his disciples how to pray, say, " forgive others so that the father may forgive you, and if you dont forgive, neither will he forgive you...he is talking to christians.
there are many examples...once forgiven always forgiven is bunk unless repentance follows the sin.to sin with out asking forgiveness and assume it is forgiven is really a slap to jesus for all he did to provide for forgiveness through grace. we can boldly approach the throne and obtain mercy and grace...this is forgiveness and christians are to approach the throne to ask for it...need more? if you or anyone believes once forgiven always forgiven or even once saved always saved....many of you will be surprised when christ says depart from me i never knew you...where is your humility? christ provided for our atonement and forgiveness but we must ask...i do not however considwer this a "work".
works are acts , deeds, intentional spreading of the gospel through love, action, or words to someone or for someone. emotions are not acts, thoughts are not acts, something between you and christ is not an act, as spoken within the bible. praise worship, adoration, prayer, repentance etc, are not acts as the bible would define.
my opinion, i believe scripture supports.
nab

Howdy Nabster,

Joel is probably not going to understand this because he believes in one righteousness. We believe in two.

Jesus died ONCE for ALL sin.

His ONE sacrifice covers ALL our sin, past, present and future.

As a result of this, we are declared perfect forever, having a righteousness that is not our own and that comes from the law by a righteousness that is given to us, a robe of righteousness. We are always in a forgiven state as long as we have faith.

The very fact that we are forgiven,made perfect and have a righteousness that is not our own,plus we are guaranteed eternal life now, leads us to repentance and helps us to continue in repentance because we love God and because we want to do his will!

We have Two righteousness's right?
The righteousness that comes by faith alone in Jesus alone therefore is a perfect and completely forgiven state.

Faith leads us to now work on our own righteousness

1 John 3:2-3"Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."NIV


You see in this passage, we ARE PURE, this is according to the righteousness that comes by faith and is given to us.

This passage also says PURIFIES HIMSELF

It is in this that we now repent and are forgiven. In our own righteousness.

Do you see what I am saying? I hope so because if you don't, I am really going to have a tough time trying to get Joel to understand what I am saying.

Here is a quote froms Wels:

"Here it is important to remember that forgiveness is not some mathematical formula, but it is comfort for our human hearts. Even through as a Christian I possess God's grace and forgiveness fully and completely as I cling to him in faith, yet because I possess a sinful nature I will also daily sin against him. Those sins make me conscious and aware of guilt.

If I refuse to confess my sin to God, I will be allowing my sinful nature, by persisting in sin, to slowly but surely destroy my faith (Romans 8:13). So instead, with a conscience aware of sin, I daily run to God for forgiveness--and in Christ I know that I receive what I need.

In this way, I both live in a state of grace and forgiveness as well as daily receiving God's forgiveness. In both ways God is at work to comfort my heart and assure me of my place as his dearly loved child. While it is impossible (and unnecessary!) to reason out fully how these can both be true, Scripture speaks both ways, and our conscience takes great comfort and finds peace in both ways that Scripture speaks.

A comparison could be made here to the love of spouses in a marriage. A husband no doubt tells his wife how much he loves her on their wedding day. But what would happen if the husband never again told his wife that he loved her? Even though the husband still loves his wife, she would very easily begin to wonder where she stands in his love. But when the husband continually makes use of every opportunity to demonstrate his love anew to his wife, his wife will have no reason to doubt how loved and cherished she is.

Notice how the same logical questions could be raised here. Didn't he love her already before he showed new demonstrations of his love? How long does his love last that he shows to her? But such logical questions are not the point. The husband's point is to allow his wife to live in constant assurance that she is loved by him. Therefore he both loves her constantly as well as giving her new gifts of that same love.

So it is with our forgiveness from Christ. God's goal is that I grow in faith and confidence of how greatly Jesus has loved me in his grace. Therefore, he both declares me to be not guilty in his sight and daily and regularly gives me new gifts of forgiveness. God is not concerned about figuring out "mathematically" how this all works, but rather he is concerned that my heart grows in confidence of his saving love for me."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo:

Faith leads us to now work on our own righteousness

1 John 3:2-3"Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."NIV


You see in this passage, we ARE PURE, this is according to the righteousness that comes by faith and is given to us.

This passage also says PURIFIES HIMSELF

It is in this that we now repent and are forgiven. In our own righteousness.
[END QUOTE]

our righteousness is as filthy rags before Christ. his righteousness in us, okay, but work on our righteousness....a waste of time , for we can never be righteous in our own doing.

forgiveness without repenting....bunk. forgiveness of sin in the future without asking ....bunk.
scripture says

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

.................HELLO?..................


Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


2Cr 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ;


..................FINALLY, THE BIGGIE......
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all

WE ARE FORGIVEN WHEN WE ASK FOR IT...IT IS PROVIDED FOR ALREADY, BUT WE MUST RECEIVE IT BY ASKING AND REPENTING.
NABSTER

Actually, as I read these things, I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement as to the topics of faith, forgiveness, repentence. Unfortunately the slightly different emphases and lingo used by our different denominations make it difficult to get that across.

Let's try to simplify.

I know where I stand and nabster stands (which is incidentally the same place), so with a simple yes/no answer, Echo, once a person is saved, is there ever a need for them to ask God for forgiveness?

This quote from the WELS site that you posted </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If I refuse to confess my sin to God, I will be allowing my sinful nature, by persisting in sin, to slowly but surely destroy my faith (Romans 8:13). So instead, with a conscience aware of sin, I daily run to God for forgiveness--and in Christ I know that I receive what I need. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">seems to indicate that your answer is "Yes" and that means we are all in agreement.

Nabster

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">our righteousness is as filthy rags before Christ. his righteousness in us, okay, but work on our righteousness....a waste of time , for we can never be righteous in our own doing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, our righteousness is filthy rags. But what does this mean exactly? It means that we can never get into heaven by our works. Do you agree?
We get into heaven by Jesus work on our behalf, do you agree? Once we are saved by his merit alone, it produces in us a new heart that can NOW do an actual righteous good deed! What makes a good deed a righteous good deed? It is: doing it out of love and thanks for our salvation! Do these actual acts of true righteousness justify us before God? NO...We have already been justified by faith. Our righteous acts are simply a gift of our love to God.

If I do a good work with the motive: I must do this or I won't go to heaven. This is a filthy rag. If I do a good work out of thanks because heaven is mine even now, it is a righteous good work. The motive is simply: thanks!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">but work on our righteousness....a waste of time , for we can never be righteous in our own doing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What exactly do you mean? The Bible is very clear that we have two righteousness's don't you agree? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 John 3:2-3"Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."NIV
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Clearly this passage says that we NOW we purifiy ourselves. What do you think this means?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">forgiveness without repenting....bunk. forgiveness of sin in the future without asking ....bunk</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did you read my whole post?????

Even Joel caught it.

Here is what it said:

If I refuse to confess my sin to God, I will be allowing my sinful nature, by persisting in sin, to slowly but surely destroy my faith (Romans 8:13). So instead, with a conscience aware of sin, I daily run to God for forgiveness--and in Christ I know that I receive what I need.

Joel,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Echo, once a person is saved, is there ever a need for them to ask God for forgiveness?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes or no? That doesn't give me much room!

Once we are saved, WE DESIRE to ask for forgiveness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It means that we can never get into heaven by our works. Do you agree?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We get into heaven by Jesus work on our behalf, do you agree?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes

You see, it's not that hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Once we are saved, WE DESIRE to ask for forgiveness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So that's a Yes right?

Because you see, logically, if we aren't desiring to ask for forgiveness, we aren't really saved, are we?

Nabster

Here is another quote from my previous thread that you missed:

"The very fact that we are forgiven,made perfect and have a righteousness that is not our own,plus we are guaranteed eternal life now, leads us to repentance and helps us to continue in repentance because we love God and because we want to do his will!"

echo, you said.

"His ONE sacrifice covers ALL our sin, past, present and future."
what did you mean?
looks pretty clear.
this is the statement i disagree with.
nab

Well, his sacrifice does cover all those sins.

Jesus has paid the price, it is through our submission to him that we accept payment. Even though it's already paid for, we still ask for forgiveness.

Joel

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
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It means that we can never get into heaven by our works. Do you agree?

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Yes


quote:
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We get into heaven by Jesus work on our behalf, do you agree?
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Yes</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We don't agree because this means somthing different for you than it does for us.
I will show you within the next few posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once we are saved, WE DESIRE to ask for forgiveness.
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So that's a Yes right?

Because you see, logically, if we aren't desiring to ask for forgiveness, we aren't really saved, are we?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but it is also true that if one of our motives is to repent otherwise we won't go to the celestial kingdom, our repentance is not Godly sorrow. I will explain this better shortly.

Nabster

Are you perfect in Christ? By his righteousness? The answer is yes. The Bible says we are perfect forever! This means all our sin, past, present and future is hidden in Christ.

1 John 3:2-3"Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."NIV


This verse says we ARE PURE. That means we have been forgiven for ALL our sin. Past present and future.

And just as we are pure, we NOW purify ourselves.
Christ's robe of righteousness has declared us perfect forever! Without it, we don't get into heaven!

Hebrews 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

ECHO POSTED:

You look to Christ as:

1) giving you the free gift of bodily ressurection
2) Paying the debt of sin to God which gives you the opportunity to gain eternal life in the kingdom of heaven by your works and repentance.
Jesus was your creditor.

Is this correct?


JOEL POSTED:
Not entirely.

I see that the debt for sin has been paid, it is a gift but I must unwrap it, by exercising faith in Christ.

My faith in Christ, if it is real faith and not merely professed faith, will naturally lead me into repentence.

I'm pretty sure we're required to ask for forgiveness and required to forgive others in order to recieve it. Nabster has actually covered it beautifully elsewhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I see that the debt for sin has been paid, it is a gift but I must unwrap it, by exercising faith in Christ. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could you explain this some more?

JOEL POSTED THIS: (Brought over from the Mormon thread by Joel's request)

JOEL SAID
Here's where the confusion comes in regarding what folks think about Mormons and the whole faith & works debate.

One reason for the confusion is that we do alot of Works. We pay tithing, we go to the temple, we don't drink or smoke, we don't have sex outside of marriage, we go on missions, and so on and so forth. What outsiders don't understand is that we do these things, because that's what someone who has truly accepted Christ and turned over his/her heart to him will do. We do not do them for a reward, we do them out of love for Christ. To be sure there are those who do them to preserve personal appearance, but I can only state the doctrinal position of the church and the position of my own heart. It's kind of like when James says.


quote:
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Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

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Our faith is made evident to the world by our actions, not merely by professions of faith, not backed up by actions.

Moreover, according to James, while our faith has saving power our works or actions carry with them the power to justify us.
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Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
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If I believe in Christ and don't let that belief work in me to change my life for the better, then I'm no better than the devils
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Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
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If I'm not doing good works as motivated by my faith, then either my faith is already dead or it will die
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For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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nabster doesn't consider asking for forgiveness a work, It is required of us who have accepted Christ as our Savior in order to recieve forgiveness, but he doesn't call it a work. It's a semantic point really, but what one person or denomination considers a work, another denomination does not.

Echo, apparently does consider asking for forgiveness a work and therefore it is abominable.

Here's how I & the Mormon church see it, this is the position of the church. Christ has saved us from death and sin. We will be resurrected and by having faith in Christ we will receive salvation.

The rest, has nothing to do with our salvation, but rather with what our faith compels us to do.

Our faith, if it is real, will compel us to keep the greatest commandments - Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself. Encompassed in these two (three implicitly) commandments are all the commandments. Are we loving God if we abuse the power to create life by having sex outside of marriage? No. Are we loving our neighbors if we lie, steal, cheat or kill? No. Are we loving God if we keep any commandment for any reason other than our love of him? No

Christ has paid for those sins, so we can be forgiven. How that forgiveness works is really between you and God, it's a personal matter.

If that makes me un-Christian (apart from anything else Mormon) then fine - I'm not a Christian and I'm happy not to be. But I want some opinions besides Echo's. Nabster? Allen?

Leave aside the Book of Mormon, leave aside Jesus being Satan's Brother, leave aside the Temple. Does the above make me a Christian or not?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could you explain this some more?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't get the gift unless I unwrap it. I unwrap the gift by accepting Jesus as my savior.

Accepting Christ as our Savior, takes an effort on our part, if we don't do it we aren't saved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We don't agree because this means somthing different for you than it does for us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is what drives me nuts echo, I tell you what I believe and what the church teaches and you say I'm wrong. I'm sorry, but I'm not wrong, I know what I believe, I don't need you to tell me.

I disagree with you, call heaven whatever you like. Call it heaven, call it the celesital kingdom, call it himmelen, call it frankrike. Who cares? The point is, I can't get there on my own - nothing I do will get me there. Nothing, that is except for accepting Christ as my Savior and turning my life over to Him, to be perfected and purified.