Thanks for the reminder Allen, I keep telling my husband he will never know if I have Alzheimer's cause I'm so forgetful!

One Faith,One Baptism: Don't you believe that tongues and faith healing comes by a second baptism? A Baptism in the Holy Spirit? The first Baptism being the Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

On tongues, Tongues is speaking in another human language so that people who speak the other language can understand.

Acts 2:4-8"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues...how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?..."

I read up a bit, and my Church believes that God can still give the gift of tongues if he chooses.
For us it is not a matter of can or does he still do it. But they believe that what some claim as tongues, is not necessarily the scriptural tongues. Studies were done and when someone spoke in tongues, two interpreters could not interpret the message the same. This is suspect.

They believe that tongues is speaking in other wordly languages. That scripture has no examples of tongues being a language only God can understand. Scriture has passages that "could" suggest this, but there are no clear examples of what this type of tongues would look like. All the scriptural examples of tongues are men speaking in other wordly languages.
What our Church reccomends is that we examine other teachings of that particular Church and if we see other false teaching there, we simply do what God would have us do, and not follow or listen to a false teacher. I think that is really good advise. So then, rather than judging wether the tongues in a particular church is biblical, base your decision on wether or not other doctrine the church teaches is biblical or not.

The thing that catches my eye here, and did to begin with, is that if tongues is what leads us to serve God more, to be more bold and brave and want to witness more, I would have to disagree. The Gospel message is the only empowerment unto Good works. Anything else is the wrong motivation.

.

Echo,

No questions. I might add that everything you've written as you've been explaining Christianity to me, I agree with (except for the misguided dalliances into unnecessarily focusing on potential Mormon sins).

Allen,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So adding another with a completely different message clears up the misunderstandings?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">take your answer to the Mormon thread on this one, but read the Book of Mormon, characterizing it's message as completely different is absurd.

As for their differences being less extreme...

Let's see, Lutherans believe baptism is necessary and they baptize infants. I've talked to you about the necessity of baptism before and you've claimed that my beliefs in that regard are not Christian, but that's smoothed over for the Lutheran, isn't it.

From the WELS website

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Augsburg Confession is the first of the great Protestant Confessions. All orthodox Lutheran church bodies base their teachings upon this treatise because they believe that it is a faithful to Word of God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and here's what they say about "Original Sin" </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also they teach that since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with concupiscence; and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and now here's the part of the Augsburg Confession referring to Baptism </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, if I said this you'd say I wasn't a Christian.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">While we may have different interpretations of God's Word we at least attempt to interpret the same Bible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As do I. I don't use a different Bible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe Lutheran's believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, tho I'm not sure why they think God's promises aren't for today's Christian as well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">funny, I believe the Bible is only slightly in error, but I don't completely reject the gifts of the spirit made manifest amongst todays Christians, like Lutherans do. I think they should be fully manifest.

The Christian Club hypocrisy strikes again.

Mormons names aren't on the guest list so we aren't invited.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One Faith,One Baptism: Don't you believe that tongues and faith healing comes by a second baptism? A Baptism in the Holy Spirit? The first Baptism being the Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this is a little whack considering that the savior said in John 3:5 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Most everyone in the Christian world agrees that being born of water is baptism by water and born of the Spirit is Baptism by the Holy Ghost. Jesus said, there are two, but in many ways they are the same.

Moreover, John the Baptist says himself that he can only baptize with Water but Jesus could baptize with the Holy Spirit (fire). There's another two baptisms. What's most interesting to me is that Jesus was baptized by water that Jesus' Apostles performed baptisms by water and that they also performed baptism by the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands to grant unto people the Holy Ghost.

These things of course seem to give credence to my interpretation of "one faith, one baptism" which is along the lines of that meaning there is one correct faith and one correct means of baptism by the proper authority.

Hey Joel and Allen, can we move this conversation about Baptism to a new thread? So we don't get sidetracked in the Law/gospel message??? Can we...huh huh...can we?

*she wines and pleads with the two nice fellows*

It's not a discussion about baptism. If you want to have one, start a new thread, I for one would enjoy it. unless of course you are referring to the "one faith, one baptism" stuff.

Mostly, I was just pointing out to Allen that there are indeed major differences in doctrine between those in the accepted Christian club. Just as large as differences between Mormons and Christians.

Joel, you misunderstand one very major thing. Faith is a gift and comes from hearing the message of the gospel.
Faith does not come through a false gospel. People can have faith apart from the gospel, but it is not saving faith. (Even the demons believed and shuttered)
Faith that Jesus did everything that needs to be done in order for us to have eternal life in the kingdom of heaven, gaurenteed to us even now.
It is somthing we recieve as a gift. The gift IS NOT Ressurection. As I will explain in another post shortly.

Jesus is the foundation of our faith upon which we build. If we build everything else, on false teaching, we are still saved. What we build just burns up, but we ourselves will still be saved.

1Corinthians 3:10-15 "10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Christians and the LDS have different foundations. Therefore, the LDS are not saved.


On Baptism, a quick note Joel, Wels does also teach that Baptism is non-esssential in certain instances. A topic for another thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Christian Club hypocrisy strikes again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What do you mean? I see no hypocrisy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mormons names aren't on the guest list so we aren't invited.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, Mormon names are on the guest list, but some refuse to accept the invitation. Instead they try to climb in some other way by "doing all you can do"

.

I am putting together my next post and have lots of scripture to look up...so hold tight.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is somthing we recieve as a gift. The gift IS NOT Ressurection. As I will explain in another post shortly.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you really read what I post. Salvation in Christ is a gift to the believers. Resurrection is a gift to all mankind. That's scriptural, that's Biblical and it's so utterly clear as to be beyond contention.

About Baptism from the WELS site
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Baptism is necessary because it was instituted by our Savior and because he commanded that all nations should be baptized (Matthew 28:19). It is necessary because through baptism God gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, life and salvation (Acts 2:38-39, Titus 3:4-7, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21).
Nevertheless baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation because it is not the only means of grace. The Holy Spirit also brings people to faith through the preaching of the gospel. Faith in Jesus saves. Unbelief damns (John 3:16-18, Mark 16:15-16). Not the lack of baptism but the despising of baptism brings God's condemnation (Luke 7:30).

Perhaps behind your question is the thought that baptism is a work that God requires of us in order for us to be saved. Baptism is not a meritorious work that we must offer to God in order to win his favor. We are saved by God's grace alone through faith in Jesus who accomplished everything for our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 John 2:2, Romans 3:10-25). Jesus won God's favor for us (2 Corinthains 5:18-21, Ephesians 5:2). Baptism is not something that we do for God or to earn our salvation. Rather it is a means whereby the Holy Spirit comes to us to create faith or to strengthen faith (Acts 2:38-39, Titus 3:4-7, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Ephesians 5:25-27).

When we recognize the blessings that God offers and gives to us in baptism, we will treat this sacrament as God intends, as a precious gift from him through which he confers gifts of his grace on us.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">which is of course a direct contradiction of the Augsburg Confession which your faith is based on. So I guess it was wrong or something.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus is the foundation of our faith upon which we build. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with this 100% - THat is what I do. That is what all LDS people should be doing and most are doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Christians and the LDS have different foundations. Therefore, the LDS are not saved.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Says you. Not the Bible, Not God - you. Personally, I prefer to wait for God to determine who's saved and who isn't.

Joel, could you just try to not be so much on the attack and just listen? And even ask questions? You will have your turn with the LDS gospel. When you are done with your gospel, we will then discuss the differences, okay?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">which is of course a direct contradiction of the Augsburg Confession which your faith is based on. So I guess it was wrong or something.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am sorry Joel, but I do not see how it contradicts the Augsburg Confession, can you be more specific and copy/paste the two specific contradictions for me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Says you. Not the Bible, Not God - you. Personally, I prefer to wait for God to determine who's saved and who isn't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Says the Bible Joel. Therefore God says so, not me. I don't decide who is saved and who is not, God does and he shows us who is not saved in the Bible.

Echo,

You really have a reading comprehension problem

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Says you. Not the Bible, Not God - you. Personally, I prefer to wait for God to determine who's saved and who isn't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Says the Bible Joel. Therefore God says so, not me. I don't decide who is saved and who is not, God does and he shows us who is not saved in the Bible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When I wrote "Says you" I was referring to when you said this

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Christians and the LDS have different foundations. Therefore, the LDS are not saved.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible does not say "Christians and LDS have different foundations" You do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am sorry Joel, but I do not see how it contradicts the Augsburg Confession, can you be more specific and copy/paste the two specific contradictions for me?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Go to the WELS website, lookup the Augsburg Confession and read the part about Baptism. It's a direct contradiction as the Augsburg Confession makes no exceptions for baptism. Which to be honest is perfectly fine by me.

Joel,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible does not say "Christians and LDS have different foundations" You do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it does. There is a foundation built on faith alone and there is a foundation built on faith and works.
Christians have their foundation on faith alone.
The LDS has their foundation of faith and works.

The Bible condemns faith and works salvation.

Romans 9:32 "Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Romans 10:3 "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness."

Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."

Romans 10:6 "But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'"

1 Corinthians 1:30 " It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption."

2 Corinthians 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

Galatians 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3:6 "Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness"

Phil 3:9 "and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."


The Augsburg confession says that Baptism is necessary for salvation. This is intended for the majority of cases. Baptism is non-essential in rare cases. For example, the thief on the cross could not be baptized, but he was saved.
A Child that dies before birth cannot be Baptized, an unexpected death prior to Baptism will not withhold someone from entering the kingdom of God.

The Augsburg confession means that ALL will want to submit to Baptism. For to willingly reject it is to willingly reject God.

The point being that "all" will desire Baptism

Echo Said:

Yes it does. There is a foundation built on faith alone and there is a foundation built on faith and works.
Christians have their foundation on faith alone.
The LDS has their foundation of faith and works.


Hold up, doesn't the Bible say that ti is not by our faith alone that we are saved? I believe it was somewhere in the letters to whoever.

Also, Jesus also talked about the Servant who says that he will do the work and doesn't do it, and the one who says he won't do the work and ends up doing it.

There are other references but right now, yoiu are going against mainstream Christianity.

Also, Hitler will be in heaven yet Gandhi will be burning alive according to you.

christianity is faith alone...rewards in heaven are by works on earth. lds is works+ faith.
The example of the servant is about the heart...if one says i'll do it and doesnt he is a liar. the other says i wont and does, is convicted of wrongdoing and does the work...repentance.
hitler will not be in heaven, you have said this several times and i dont know where it comes from..he is no more a christian than osama bin laden he will only be inheaven if he gave his heart to Jesus and was saved. it is pretty clear he was bound by satan, becasue of his hatred of jews. christians have not hatred , but love for mankind. Same rules for Ghandi apply...heart to jesus=saved. otherwise , no. many good and great men and women will go to a devil's hell not intended for them , because they reject christianity and the gospel.
nab

ElSenorMouse

I like the way you think of scripture to see if what I am saying is true. Good for you! You are on the right track. You should test everything in light of scripture just as you are in fact doing! That is commendable and I am impressed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hold up, doesn't the Bible say that ti is not by our faith alone that we are saved? I believe it was somewhere in the letters to whoever. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think I know the passage you are referring to,it perfectly describes where "works" come in,
It is in James:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. 19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead."

These passages describe that those who are saved by faith "alone", will do good works! True faith cannot help but want to do good works. The Gospel is a message that creates "in" us a new heart. A new heart means that we now have a desire to serve and obey God. Our works however, do NOT justify us before God. They justify us before men. We are justified before God through faith alone. Our works have nothing to do with our Salvation and entrance into the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus secured all of that for us and we believe it! (faith alone)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also, Hitler will be in heaven yet Gandhi will be burning alive according to you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus died for the sins of ALL people and paid the debt of that sin for all people. Only those who believe that Jesus did this for them will be saved. Hitler did not show that he believed in Jesus by his actions! By his actions he did not have faith alone. Our actions justify us before men and not God. By Hitler's actions, he clearly did not have faith. But he could of had death bed repentance such as the thief on the cross.

Echo,

For your convenience, here is the direct quote from the Augsburg Confession regarding baptism as copied and pasted from the WELS site </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It does not say
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is intended for the majority of cases.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nor does it say </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Baptism is non-essential in rare cases.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nor does it cite the example of the thief on the cross, nor does it cite the example of a child who dies before being baptized. It simply says </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So the question is pretty simple, Does WELS really agree with or disagree with the Augsburg Confession?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LDS has their foundation of faith and works.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You read what I write and pretend it was never there. I've already explained that this is not the case. But I'll explain it again.

Mormons believe that we are saved by Grace. Without Grace (in Jesus Christ) no one can be saved. We believe that our faith in Christ will motivate us to do greater and greater works in his honor. We believe that if someone professes faith in Christ and yet good works are absent from their life, then that profession of faith in Christ is suspect, but the works in and of themselves have absolutely no saving power whatsoever. In fact, the way you interpret James 2 is exactly inline with LDS doctrine/practice/belief. Are we clear? How about you read that paragraph 10 or 15 more times so we don't have to cover it again?

Clear now?

So I repeat "The Bible does not say "Christians and LDS have different foundations" You do. "

Wels absolutely agrees with the confession. The confession means that anyone who rejects Baptism actually rejects Jesus.

If someone recieves the gift of faith and is unable to be baptized due to extreme circumstance they will be saved. God is not legalistic like the pharisees and jews.
The whole point of the confession is that "all" be willing to be baptised.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mormons believe that we are saved by Grace. Without Grace (in Jesus Christ) no one can be saved. We believe that our faith in Christ will motivate us to do greater and greater works in his honor. We believe that if someone professes faith in Christ and yet good works are absent from their life, then that profession of faith in Christ is suspect, but the works in and of themselves have absolutely no saving power whatsoever. In fact, the way you interpret James 2 is exactly inline with LDS doctrine/practice/belief. Are we clear? How about you read that paragraph 10 or 15 more times so we don't have to cover it again?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LDS DOCTRINE AND FOUNDATION AND HOW IT DIFFERS TO THE CHRISTIAN FOUNDATION:


The only unconditional gift of God to man in the LDS is the resurrection. Salvation in LDS theology means we will all be resurrected.

Quote from LDS sources: "Unconditional or general Salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p669)


Quote from LDS sources "Jesus was the first to be resurrected and because of him, all the people on the earth will someday be resurrected. That is why we call him "the Savior" He saved the world from death. He is the resurrection and the life. (Joyce B. Maughan, Talks for Tots, p113)

Note, there is no salvation from Sin mentioned, only resurrection from death.

SO THE LDS REFERS TO SALVATION AS RESSURECTION FROM THE DEAD
GOD DEFINES SALVATION AS THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS

God Says: LUKE 1:77 “TO GIVE HIS PEOPLE KNOWLEDGE OF SALVATION THROUGH THE FORGIVENESS OF THEIR SINS”

Here is an LDS parable that pictures what Jesus did for the LDS:

LDS Quote: "So, the effect of Adam's transgression was to place all of us in a pit with him. Then the Savior comes along, not subject to that pit, and lowers the ladder. He comes down into the pit and makes it possible for us to use the ladder to escape" (Joseph Smith, quoted in Sharing the Gospel,p71)

In Christian theology, Jesus does not give us a ladder to climb up out of the pit with, he actually takes us out of the pit!

Climbing the ladder is our obedience, thus in LDS theology, we must work our way to heaven.

Here is how the LDS teaches we gain eternal life:
(Climb up the ladder)

LDS QUOTE: "When he became our Savior, he did his part to help us return to our heavenly home. It is now up to each of us to do our part and become worthy of exaltation. (Gospel Principles, p 19)

LDS QUOTE:"These blessings are not free gifts. Except for the free gift of immortality...all rewards gained in the eternal worlds MUST BE EARNED.(emphasis mine)That perfection sought by the saints is both temporal and spiritual and comes only as a result of full obedience" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p641)

LDS QUOTE: "The Lord has told us how we may get to heaven. We must obey all the commandments of God.(emphasis mine) We can be sure that only those who live the commandments of God will ever see heaven"(Maughan, Talk for tots, p85)

From the Mormon BOM: "For it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO"(emphasis mine)(2 Nep25:23)

QUOTE FROM THE LDS "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts(emphasis mine) (LDS Bible Dictionary, p697)

IN LDS THEOLOGY, WORKS ARE CLEARLY THE WAY TO GET TO HEAVEN BY OBEYING THE LAW
GOD TEACHES THAT WORKS ARE NOT THE WAY TO GET TO HEAVEN:

Romans 6:14” For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.”

Romans 6:15 “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”

What did God do with the law?

Colossians 2:13,14 “13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[a] God made you[b] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,”
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

He nailed it to the cross, canceling it.

What happens to those who rely on the Law as does the LDS?

Galatians 3 :10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

They are cursed!

What happens to those who are cursed?

Mathew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

They go to the Outer darkness, Hell to spend eternity with Satan.

Why?

Romans 9:32 “…Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Because they thought they could get into heaven by their works.


JESUS CHRIST IS NOT SUFFICIENT FOR SALVATION IN LDS TEACHING. IN CHRISTIAN TEACHING JESUS CHRIST IS ALL SUFFICIENT:

LDS quote: "Therefore, acting alone, the grace of Christ is not sufficient for salvation, the deeds of service and acts of charity and mercy-are necessary for salvation" (Millet, By Grace Are we saved, p70)

What does God say:

Hebrews 10:14 “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified”

HE (Jesus) has perfected us forever and HE (Jesus) has sanctified us. Therefore he is all sufficient

In LDS theology, there is no certainty, therefore no peace.

God teaches that the gospel is a message of peace
Ephesians 6:15 “and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.”

The LDS teaches that we have no certainty therefore we have no peace, no guarantee now.

LDS Quote: "Spiritual Certainty that is necessary to salvation must be preceded by a maximum of individual effort. Grace or the free gift of the lord's atoning power, must be preceded by personal striving" (Millet, By Grace are we saved, p74)

God says that we have absolute certainty even now.

1John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Eternal life is a gift that cannot be earned; we may know we have eternal life.

I am surprised Joel that you said that Christians and the LDS do not have different foundations. Because even your Church says that we do:

LDS Quote concerning Christians "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for Salvation" (Spencer W Kimball, quoted in Book of Mormon Student Manual, p36)


Another LDS Quote "Salvation by grace alone and without works," Elder Bruce R McConkie explained, as it is taught in large segments of Christendom today, is akin to what Lucifer proposed in pre-existence...They both come from the same source; they are not of God" (Millet, By Grace Are We Saved, pp72f)

LDS teaches that we are saved by grace and works.

What does God teach?

Ephesians 2:8,9 “8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.”

God teaches that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works

LDS Quote "Ministers of false religions obtain the support of their congregations in large measure by flattery... Certain saved by grace alone fanatics flatter their followers into believing they can be saved through no act other than confessing Christ with their lips" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p287)

The LDS teaches that confessing Christ with our lips is wrong.

God teaches us that indeed if we confess Christ with our lips we are saved.

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

It is very clear that the LDS and Christianity each have a different Gospel.
Your doctrine comes from men and I have clearly shown that ours comes from God. Am I quoting Wels? No, I am quoting God.


Galatians 1:8 “8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

Have you thought about this passage Joel? Even if an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN preaches another gospel they will be eternally condemned!

Where do Christians get their gospel? From God in the Bible

Where do Mormons get their gospel? Sadly from everywhere but the Bible.

This is why my heart and soul is in anguish for Mormon souls!

Be sure to see my last post in this thread, I just want to add one more thought to it.

Mormon forgiveness is not free either, one must earn it. It could be weeks it could be years it could be centuries before we are forgiven.

In Christian theology, we are already forgiven!
Jesus paid our sin debt in full. That is why we are happy sheep!

No where in the Augsburg Confession does it say anything about merely being willing to be baptized. It simply says "Baptism... is necessary to salvation" NOT "being willing to be baptized is necessary to salvation."

What's up with that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only unconditional gift of God to man in the LDS is the resurrection. Salvation in LDS theology means we will all be resurrected.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is salvation from sin free? NO!! Jesus has indeed paid the price for all sin, but one simple act is required in order to attain that salvation. Accepting Jesus Christ. Without doing that, man cannot be saved. Do you agree?

So you see, salvation is not really free, something is required - we have to accept Jesus. If we don't we will merely be resurrected, which is a free gift to all mankind.

As for all the quotes that seem to indicate that we believe we are saved by grace + works. I guess it's not possible to take isolated quotes by church leaders and show that they believe something different than what their church teaches. Oh wait, it is entirely possible and I just did it over in the Mormon thread with Martin Luther, didn't I. I also just did it in this thread with the Augsburg confession. It says clearly one thing and your church teaches another. Very similar, but still different.

The Bible even has a difficult time explaining the relationship between grace and works. It is done best in James 2. But many take that to mean works are required after all, James says "Faith without works is dead." You cannot understand any concept of faith in Christ without understanding the works that said faith will engender within you.

If a man at the age of 22 accepts Christ as their Savior and says they are saved and then moves in with his girlfriend and has pre-marital sex with her, would you say he's still saved? Probably not. What if he then repents and says he's sorry, but continues with the pre-marital sex? Still saved? probably not?

Once we accept Christ, we are required to live by obedience to his law. As we grow in understanding we grow in responsibility. Even the Savior himself said in Luke 12:48 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those of us who have recieved the promise of salvation through our faith in Jesus Christ have been given much as such, much is also required of us. We must live the life of a disciple of Christ. If we don't our profession of faith is without meaning or substance.

I've been in many pentacostal churches and other churches where I've heard sermons on being saved by grace only. I've heard the preacher/pastor/priest literally say something to the effect of "once you are saved it no longer matters what you do." Do you realize how dangerous that is? That makes it sound like being saved is a license to sin. Any sin - fornication, adultery, murder, homosexuality, abortion, stealing, lying, and so forth. Do you believe that Echo?

Echo, do you believe that now that you are saved you are not required to obey God's commandments?

I don't.

That is what all of the above quotes are trying to communicate. Christ's atonement does not excuse us from the responsibility to be good people.

This quote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"For it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">from the Book of Mormon, I have already explained four times, but I'll do it again.

Job, was a perfect man, he did no sin. Even though he was perfect, without the grace of Christ, it would be impossible for him to be saved. IN other words, even if I managed to obey each and every commandment given me from God, I cannot be saved without faith in Jesus Christ.

Here's some more quotes from the Book of Mormon

2 Nephi 10:24 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2 Nephi 2:8 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here's some more quotes to hopefully clarify:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">After all our obedience and good works, we cannot be saved from the effect of our sins without the grace extended by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dallin H. Oaks, current member of the quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are those who claim that no one will sink and be lost if he will look to Jesus on the shore and say, ‘I believe.’ There are others who declare that every one must by his own efforts swim to the shore or be lost forever. The real truth is that both of these extreme views are incorrect. Christ redeemed all men from death which was brought upon them through no act of theirs, but He will not save men from their personal transgressions who will put forth no effort themselves, any more than the young rescuer on the river bank could have saved the drowning lad if the latter had not seized the means provided him. Neither can man save himself without accepting the means provided by Christ for man’s salvation.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">David O. McKay, former Prophet of the church.

The effort we have to put forth is to have faith in Christ.

I suspect we probably actually believe the same thing in this regard.

I'm sure that now that you consider yourself saved, you don't want to commit sin anymore, right? Neither do I. Maybe you think there is an unhealthy emphasis on the fact that we should probably keep the commandments once we are saved in the LDS church, but that's opinion.

Flatly speaking, we cannot be saved without faith in Christ.

Having Faith in Christ is, in essence, in and of itself a work. It's not that easy for everybody.

True faith in Christ will inspire the faithful to good works.

Among those works are repentence, baptism, recieving the Holy Ghost and enduring as best we can in righteousness to the end of our days. When we again find ourselves in error we should probably repent again and put ourselves back on the right track. Our faith in Christ will require us to take such action. Won't it?

Besides Echo, I'm curious if anyone agrees with me on this... Allen? nabster? embie? A3? What think ye?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mormon forgiveness is not free either, one must earn it. It could be weeks it could be years it could be centuries before we are forgiven.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's not true. I'm sorry this is what you think of our doctrine, because it's simply false.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In Christian theology, we are already forgiven!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We are? So tomorrow I can go out and sleep around and cheat on my wife, because I've already been forgiven right? I can go and rob the liquor store, because I've already been forgiven right? I can bring a gun to work and shoot anyone who disagrees with me because I've already been forgiven right?

I'm sorry but that kind of thinking when taken to the extreme is not only ludicrous, it can have very dangerous results.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mormon forgiveness is not free either, one must earn it. It could be weeks it could be years it could be centuries before we are forgiven.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's not true. I'm sorry this is what you think of our doctrine, because it's simply false.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From my post in the Mormon thread:

Forgiveness in LDS theology must be earned, this stands in stark contradiction to God's forgiveness which was earned by Jesus on the Cross and is [b]already given to us.

Colossians 2:13,14 "He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross"

Contrast LDS theology: ALL QUOTES ARE FROM AN LDS BOOK CALLED THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS BY SPENCER W KIMBALL

LDS:" There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin...The saving does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life...Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin...to try is weak"

LDS:"Repentance must involve an all-out surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the word of wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowman...God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to ALL areas of life" (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball)

LDS:"In his Sermon on the mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect" (Math 5:48) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He Would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable Perfection therefore is an acheivable goal"(Miracle of forgiveness by Spencer W. Kinball)

LDS:"Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out surrender, with a great humility and a broken and contrite spirit.
It depends upon whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes."


LDS:" How great the joy to feel and know that God will forgive sinners! Jesus declared in his Sermon on the Mount: "...your heavenly father will also forgive you" (math 6:14) This on certain conditions of course"

LDS:"TO every forgiveness there is a condition


I will reply to the second half of your post later today, and will show you just how awesome God is! Okay my friend? Thanks for your patience, my son requires my attention at the moment.Sorry.

Echo,

Why are you suddenly double posting. If you want to talk about the Mormon conception of Repentence doing so in one thread will suffice. YOu don't need to go on spreading the out of context quotes in every possible thread. My response to your indictment of LDS doctrine on forgiveness is in the other thread.

In this thread, you were teaching me how I could be saved. I'm afraid you've been hopelessly sidetracked. However, if you wish to take it up again, you had just finished explaining what sin was. I'm clear on the concept and you can feel free to continue.