Allen, I seriously can't remember the Saul/Paul conversation and since this isn't the Mormon thread, I don't feel bound to figure out what we're talking about. However, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Obviously God is sending Paul to carry His message to the Gentiles and the Jews - while the early church may have chosen Peter to lead them, no one after Jesus' death had a greater effect on the growth of the church and spread of the Gospel as Paul.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you sure about this? how do you know? Perhaps, Peter just wasn't as prolific a writer as Paul. Perhaps Peter wrote some things that someone didn't want included in the Bible. People have to remember that the Bible is not by any means a comprehensive history of early Christianity. Rather it is a selctive history of important events and writings - by no means comprehensive. Also -- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">while the early church may have chosen Peter to lead them</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">how about maybe God chose Peter to lead them or Jesus chose Peter to lead them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus as our example never once prayed to God to ask if something was true</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hello?!? is anyone home? Obviously, why would he? I mean he was quoted as having said "I am ...the truth..." What exactly would he need to pray about it for.

How about James 1:5 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">or Proverbs 3:5 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[sarcasm] clearly, the last thing the Lord wants us to do is ask him if we have a question [/sarcasm]

Echo, I'm throwing this into the main forum site because I would like to finish our discussion. You seem like a very ac cepting and understanding person and in no way was this meant to threaten your beliefs at all.

Just for a quick clarification; by your standards I am not saved. I choose not to be "one with the Lord" for reasons that even I cannot sometimes understand.

The problem is when you said that I should trust what God said instead of what man said. Well, the Bible was written by men; inspired by God but written by man. I don't care if God himself was writing those words, man will still screw them up. Therefore, I cannot believe that what they say is true because those words could have been tampered with. Now I know here is what you'll say (the same thing Allen always says) he quotes some scripture saying that "the Bible can never be tampered with." Well, if I believe that the Bible's words were messed with, then how can I believe that to be true? There would have to be some way for me to see the actions of the Bible (i.e. the flood of Noah and such) in order to even have some sort of belief. Yes, I know "Blessed are you who do not see and yet believe." Well, if God wanted everyone to be believers, then he would have cranked out everyone the exact same.

And about the whole mustard seed-faith thing; don't you see it? I agree with you. No one has great faith. So by faith to get into heaven is almost frivolous. There are just some people who cannot have faith in anything (/raises hand).

Now if God isnt a judge, then how come he damns people to hell? (Yes, I know that "our own actions **** us" and all of that but in the end, if we were made by God then he knew full well of what he was doing.)

The thing about Satan, after all that has happened good and bad in your life, you as a Christian most likely attribute the good to "God" and the bad to "Satan". Why do either? You are responsible for your own actions. You choose whether or not to do wrong. Satan doesn't tempt you. He doesn't need to. Our own minds do a great job of that. EWhen you do good, it wasen't because of God. You did good because you CHOSE to do good. God had nothing to do with it. I know people that are wiccans that are the nicest people around. And I know some Christians that I would never even want to see because of the way that they act. It's not God that has these actions for you, its you that does them yourself.

So you believe that Faith alone gets you into heaven. Faith in what? Jesus Christ alone? This is my question to you. Who do you think can get into heaven? Just Christians?

Would I like to have genuine faith? Not right now. I am still suffereing from being used and abused by putting my faith in both people and God. I see the suffering all around me by people at churches. Theyc ry out to the Lord and yet, they are not satisfied because of the people at the head of the churches. These churches hurt these people much more than anyone will ever realize. They hurt my friend tim. They make the people cripples and them give them the church as a crutch. Suddenly, while on crutches, they take away your legs so you can never get off of the crutches. I'd rather walk as a free maninstead of having to depend on the word of man about "God's word". Way I figgure, if he has something important to say, I will know when he says it. Genuine faith would only hurt me more, it wouldn't be able to free me.


If you would like to answer my other points it would be great, however, if you do not wish to carry on this line of topics, I understand.

Mouse

Hi, SenorElMouse.

You sound like you have had a lot of hard battles in life and a lot of battles with faith. As well. My heart truly goes out to you.
Like I said, I had struggles a lot too and sometimes still do. But I am stronger than when I first believed. Before I became a Christian, I often wondered if there was a God. And to make a long story short, when I first began to seriously think about seeing if God was for real or not I struggled a lot with the fact that there are so many different denominations and how was I going to know which one was the true Church. In fact, it made me really angry at God! Even though I did not have faith yet, it made me angry that if there really was a God, why is it so hard to become a Christian! I was mad about that. Of course, the picture I had in my mind about God’s character was completely wrong and that did not help matters! I pictured God as an Angry Judge sitting behind the bench in a courtroom, just waiting to catch me in a sin and then he would bring down the gavel and condemn me to Hell! He was a scary God to me.

So I decided to read the Bible for myself and then I would know which church was the true church and which ones were the false churches. It took me about 3 months to read the Bible and when I was done, I did NOT learn a thing! It was such a complicated book to understand! So I thought to myself that well I will never know if I am going to the right church, so what’s the point! It’s God’s fault for making things to difficult for people. So, I got really mad one day and looked up to heaven, ready to give up, At that time, my biggest fear was that if I attended the wrong Church and that false Church taught me a lie about a sin and I believed it, I would go to Hell for being deceived. (you have to remember that in all this time, I did not know or understand what God was really like and I had painted a rather grim picture of him in my mind) So one day I just looked up to heaven and in anger just said to God, something to the effect of: Well I don’t know what Church to go to, it is too hard for me. (I don’t remember the exact words but they were something like that.) God knew what was in my heart at that time about being afraid of going to a deceptive Church and being deceived into sin and then being condemned to hell because of it. I think that was like my speech to God, blaming him for all of it and thus giving me a reason to forget the whole thing.
I was mad and frustrated and I angrily opened up that Bible I had and the very page I opened it to I read a verse and it stood out in my mind. It said: If you teach them to sin, you will be the least in the kingdom of heaven” WOW, was that amazing to me. This verse said to me that if someone teaches me to sin and THEY are still going to heaven, well then how much more would I ! Off I went to Church.

Once I believed, things started immediately turning for the worse. Like I explained earlier.

You said: “The problem is when you said that I should trust what God said instead of what man said. Well, the Bible was written by men; inspired by God but written by man. I don't care if God himself was writing those words; man will still screw them up. Therefore, I cannot believe that what they say is true because those words could have been tampered with.”

I understand what you are saying, and I don’t expect you to jump and believe it is the infallible word of God. Yes, I do believe it is for the reasons you said, I believe it to be true because it says it is true. I believe it to be inspired by God, but I also believe it was inspired as men were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (I am not sure how much Biblical knowledge you have, so I will just explain everything and if you already know it, please forgive me, okay?) The Holy Spirit IS GOD. Not only that, but you have to think that “IF” there is a God, It only makes sense that he would make himself known to us in some way, also that the way he made himself known would be the truth, and also, because he is all powerful and all knowing, man would not be able to tamper with his word to such an extent that what God intended for us to know, we could no longer know. Does that make sense? I guess what I am saying is that IF there is a God, he is more than able to see to it that it is preserved in the way he chooses. My own opinion is that the word of God is written in such a way that if man were to accidentally translate one word incorrectly, there are many other passages that speak of the same thing that would clarify the unclearly translated word. Does that make sense? I am not going to tell you to believe what I say, because I know that right now, you cannot do it, I understand that. I have some examples of this if you are interested. But they will take some time to put together and they will take a lot of explaining depending on your knowledge of God and the Bible.

You said: “Well, if I believe that the Bible's words were messed with, then how can I believe that to be true?”

I understand that you believe the Bible has been messed with, that is fair to say and I am not judging you for that by no means, rather, I commend your sincerity and truthfulness about it! I really respect you because of it! Because I know firsthand that a real and genuine faith can be built on your truthfulness that you are sharing with me, rather than pretending to believe the Bible is inerrant when you do not yet see how that can be! God always wants us to be truthful, even when to be truthful means questioning God and all that he is!

There are two kinds of faith. Faith can be found from just looking at the universe, the stars, the world, and everything in the world! For example, when we look at Man. We are amazing! Look at all the technology that we have invented, Human beings are so intricately made and complex. If we look at the technology around us today, some really amazing stuff huh? But we would never, ever say that computers lets say, happened by a cosmic accident! That would be ridiculous! But the human being is so much more complex, and yet we doubt that we are intelligently designed. It is amazing to me and yet, sometimes I still doubt! I don’t understand it. Perhaps because we live in a fallen world with so much suffering and evil, the idea of a perfectly loving God seems completely unreasonable. IT does! I have been there also, but my mind has been changed about that as well. This is the kind of faith that the Bible says will leave man without excuse.
This kind of faith is NOT saving faith. Although these can increase our saving faith that we already have or they can lead us to search for God. Which leads me to your next sentence.

You said: “There would have to be some way for me to see the actions of the Bible (i.e. the flood of Noah and such) in order to even have some sort of belief.”

Saving faith does NOT come from seeing the actions of the Bible, It comes from the “MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL” Do you have any understanding of the Gospel?

You said: “Well, if God wanted everyone to be believers, then he would have cranked out everyone the exact same.”

Well I would disagree, God made each of us different to be sure. I believe that God indeed wants everyone to be believers as the Bible says 1 Timothy 2:3 “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”
But even the Bible shows some people with lots of faith and some people with little faith.
He loves them all the same, and like I said before, our doubts are our weaknesses and not God’s fault. He is standing ready to help us with our doubts if we ask him.

You said: “And about the whole mustard seed-faith thing; don't you see it? I agree with you. No one has great faith. So by faith to get into heaven is almost frivolous. There are just some people who cannot have faith in anything (/raises hand)”

I am not sure what you meant when you said: “don’t you see it?” Some days I have great faith and other days I do not. I pray for God to help me when my faith begins to decrease.
I am not sure what you meant when you said that faith to get into heaven is almost frivolous? I think that the reason you cannot have faith in anything has to do with probably a whole host of things that have happened and gone on in your life. As a believer myself, I know that that is Satan’s main goal. To deceive us, and destroy and to give us a wrong idea about what God is really like. Don’t forget, the Bible says that we are ALL BLIND before we hear the truth of the gospel. That means none of us knows what God is all together like until we have heard the gospel. I am thinking that perhaps you have never heard the TRUE GOSPEL, or, you have, but Satan has succeeded at destroying your faith.

You said ” Now if God isnt a judge, then how come he damns people to hell? (Yes, I know that "our own actions **** us" and all of that but in the end, if we were made by God then he knew full well of what he was doing.)”

God never damns people to Hell in the sense most people believe. I look at it as giving Man the Ultimate freedom. The freedom to choose to love him or not! The freedom to choose to spend eternity with him or not! God does not want to force us into heaven if we really don’t want to go there! So the fact that he has created an alternative to heaven just shows us how much he loves us and respects our right to choose!! It actually places great value on us! (Although, man is in a fallen state before they hear the Gospel and therefore are unable to choose God, because of the fall of Adam. But by the gospel message, he gives us back that freedom, because he loves us so much!) I wasn’t sure what you meant by “if we were made by God and he knew full well what he was doing?” Could you clarify this a bit for me?


You said “The thing about Satan, after all that has happened good and bad in your life, you as a Christian most likely attribute the good to "God" and the bad to "Satan". Why do either? You are responsible for your own actions. You choose whether or not to do wrong. Satan doesn't tempt you. He doesn't need to. Our own minds do a great job of that. EWhen you do good, it wasen't because of God. You did good because you CHOSE to do good. God had nothing to do with it. I know people that are wiccans that are the nicest people around. And I know some Christians that I would never even want to see because of the way that they act. It's not God that has these actions for you, its you that does them yourself.”

You asked why I attribute the good to God and the bad to Satan? This is a tough one to answer &#61514; let’s see if I can do it… Any time I sin, I am solely responsible. Satan tempts us to sin, but as a believer, I NOW have the ability to refuse to fall into temptation. Therefore Satan is not to blame when I sin. I am to blame. I blame any doubts I have on Satan; he is the tempter the Bible says. But when I first became a believer, I had the “desire” to do God’s will, which at that time would be to not doubt. But as a new believer, I did not have the knowledge about God to fight back! When Jesus was tempted by the Devil, he used SCRIPTURE to fight the devil. As a new believer, this was impossible for me to do, I was just starting out! The Bible was too complicated for me and I did not understand it! So I was unable to prevent it or keep from falling into so much doubt. God had to be my strength as he answered all my prayers by alleviating those doubts. No, I did not see Jesus face to face, nor have dreams or visions, or anything like that. But over time and beginning almost right after that prayer, answers started coming through books, through people, through various ways, that in themselves were no way miraculous but at times I couldn’t help but think, this is a coincidence, that I prayed about this and here is the answer! God has ways of reaching us that are sometimes difficult to see. And at other times, you just know it is, because there just seems to be too many coincidences. It is difficult to explain. A lot of times I don’t see God answering my prayers, and I struggle again with doubt because of it. But I am learning now to see answers in the past that I did not recognize as answers until now. This too is hard to explain. Some answers come very shortly after praying and some come in the future. I have yet to figure out why this is, but the Bible says that he comes neither too soon nor too late. So it is in his timing.


You said: “You choose whether or not to do wrong. Satan doesn't tempt you. He doesn't need to. Our own minds do a great job of that.”

Yes, I choose wether to do wrong. But when you said that our minds do a great job of that. You have to think a little deeper on this. Who fills our minds with these things? What do we learn from people around us, how much of the World’s thinking do we allow to penetrate our hearts? How much of that do we act on? And so on… Also, according to the Bible, we all have evil and wicked hearts because of the fall of Adam and Eve, nobody is exempt. But we are so lucky to have a God who loves us in spite of our wickedness and Evil hearts! Hence the song: “amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a WRETCH like me! “

You said: “EWhen you do good, it wasen't because of God. You did good because you CHOSE to do good.”

The Bible says that unbelievers can do good, God has given each of us a Conscience.
But the Bible also says that none of “this” kind of good is righteous in his eyes.
In fact, all the good we do for any other motivation other than love and thanks to God for the Salvation he gives us as a gift, is filthy rags in his sight!

So the Good I chose to do before I became a believer was worthless because I did not have the only motive required to do a righteous good work, because the proper motive is: out of love and thanks to God for giving me the gift of eternal life and the forgiveness of all my sins. And for showing me how much he loves me and for perfecting me by his sacrifice on the cross.

You said: “So you believe that Faith alone gets you into heaven. Faith in what? Jesus Christ alone? This is my question to you. Who do you think can get into heaven? Just Christians?”

Yes, I believe faith alone gets me into heaven, Faith in the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Who do I think can get into heaven? Anyone, anywhere, who believes the message of the Gospel.

This is another reason why I believe the Bible to be true and no other religion.
The message of the gospel is the only message from God to us that shows us that nothing is required of us to have eternal life. All other religion always requires that we must do something in order to go to heaven, the message of the gospel stands as the only one that is different in this regard, and therefore it paints a picture of the Jesus of the Bible being the only one who loves us unconditionally. All other religion has conditions. If God is for real, and he is a God of love, he must and has to be a God who loves us unconditionally.
For true and real love is unconditional.

The Bible itself claims that Jesus is The ONLY way to the father.

You said: “Would I like to have genuine faith? Not right now. I am still suffering from being used and abused by putting my faith in both people and God. I see the suffering all around me by people at churches. Theyc ry out to the Lord and yet, they are not satisfied because of the people at the head of the churches. These churches hurt these people much more than anyone will ever realize. They hurt my friend tim. They make the people cripples and them give them the church as a crutch. Suddenly, while on crutches, they take away your legs so you can never get off of the crutches. I'd rather walk as a free maninstead of having to depend on the word of man about "God's word". Way I figgure, if he has something important to say, I will know when he says it. Genuine faith would only hurt me more, it wouldn't be able to free me.

Wow, your story breaks my heart! I mean that. I myself never put faith in people, people are so imperfect and even the best Christian on the planet is a sinner and can make mistakes. I listen and learn from people. And I love people. But I also keep in mind that they are sinners just like me. They are imperfect, just like me. I did struggle with this in the beginning of my faith and went through some difficulties of my own with believers. But it was nothing in comparison to what you have been through! But I have come to see also that some sheep are really wolves in sheep’s clothing. So I always put God’s word above all else. God is perfect and he will not fail me. Even when it seems he has. Look at JOB in the Bible, it is the most heart wrenching story. Job suffered much, I don’t know if you have read it, but if that were me, I would have thought God failed me! But God was with him all the way and he used it for Job’s good.

Can I ask what Church you went to? My thoughts are that it is a false Church. Or there are just a lot of wolves in sheep’s clothing attending there! No wonder you are so shot down about faith and God!
You spoke about them not being satisfied about the people at the head of the Churches. My questions would be were they dictators? Can you tell me more? Perhaps I can help you with it? The leaders of this so called Church really seem to me to be Wolves in Sheep’s clothing!

P.S. I am new at windows and the internet, I have no clue what you mean when you say you are moving this to a mainsite?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
________________________________________
Echo said:Jesus as our example never once prayed to God to ask if something was true
________________________________________
Joel said: Hello?!? is anyone home? Obviously, why would he? I mean he was quoted as having said "I am ...the truth..." What exactly would he need to pray about it for.

How about James 1:5
quote:
________________________________________
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
________________________________________
or Proverbs 3:5
quote:
________________________________________
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
________________________________________
[sarcasm] clearly, the last thing the Lord wants us to do is ask him if we have a question [/sarcasm]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi Joel,

You are right, Jesus IS the truth, so my point was that he used the SCRIPTURES to discern truth AS OUR EXAMPLE. So that we would know what to do.

James 1:5 does not tell us to pray to see if the scripture is true. We know it is true because the Bible says it is true. What James is telling us is that we can get WISDOM "from" the TRUTH. Not WISDOM to see if it "is" THE TRUTH.

Proverbs 3:5 does not tell us either to pray to see if the Bible or BOM is true. It is telling us to trust in the very word of God, the Truth.

Yes, we can ask God in prayer if we have a question. But we need not ask if his word is true, we already know that.

Does that make sense? Perhaps I was a little unclear in my last post. Sorry

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But we need not ask if his word is true, we already know that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well I say the Book of Mormon is God's word. So I guess you know that it's true already. That is good news.

Compare the Book of Mormon to the Bible and you'll find that it's teachings are very much in harmony with Biblical teachings.

I'm just saying - don't rely on your own understanding at the end of the day, instead trust in the Lord.

But all of this should be in the Mormon thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, we can ask God in prayer if we have a question. But we need not ask if his word is true, we already know that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What about the person that doesn't know that? How do they find out the Bible is true? Do you mean to tell me that praying to God is not a valid means of coming to a knowledge of the truth?

I believe that God wants us to come to him in prayer so that he can answer us through the Holy Spirit. About the Bible, about Jesus, about God, about who we should marry, about what school we should attend, about what career path we should follow, and so on and so on. We are invited to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

In this sense the word "prove" means "test" and the word "all" means "all" and that includes the Bible. How do we test it? We read it. We study it. We follow it's counsel. But the ultimate test is to ask God and have faith that he will answer.

Blind faith is not what Jesus or God expects from us. God wants us to know and understand to the extent that we are able, what it is we are placing our faith in.

faith of a child...just beleive. not blindly but with a child like faith.

Joel,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Compare the Book of Mormon to the Bible and you'll find that it's teachings are very much in harmony with Biblical teachings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The teachings of the BOM are in opposition to the Bible, causing us to doubt God’s word and changing God’s word to mean something it does not mean.
This is not a personal attack against you Joel; please believe I am sincere when I say that. The teachings of the LDS and the teachings of mainstream Christianity are diametrically apposed. We have a different Gospel and a different Jesus. We believe in one God, you believe in 3 and the list of differences is quite extensive.

The BOM has a testimony of 3 witnesses. The BOM has prophecy about the testimony of these 3 witnesses. But these 3 witnesses all became apostates!

Jesus when he chose the twelve also told us that one would betray him. God would never, ever choose 3 witnesses who he knew in advance, would become apostates! He would have chosen 3 witnesses whom he knew would stand until the end, 3 witnesses who would persevere! (God knows the end from the beginning and he simply would not have done this)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> What about the person that doesn't know that? How do they find out the Bible is true? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, they can read it and it says that it is true. OR someone can preach the gospel to them, which brings them into saving faith, and they will know it is true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Do you mean to tell me that praying to God is not a valid means of coming to knowledge of the truth? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Depends what you mean. If you mean: Is praying a valid way to find NEW truth” then my answer is no.
If you mean to get clarification or understanding from the truth as it is revealed already in the Bible, I would say yes, but the whole point is that you are telling us to pray to God to see if the BOM is true. This is unbiblical. This is praying to see if the BOM is NEW truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I'm just saying - don't rely on your own understanding at the end of the day, instead trust in the Lord. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement, but trusting in the Lord and not leaning on our own understanding means trusting in his word ALONE. Not trusting in anything else.

1 Peter 1:23 “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.”


John 15:7 “If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you”

1 Peter 1:23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1 John 2:14 “I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> But all of this should be in the Mormon thread. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, you are right, but I just wanted everyone who is reading this thread to see both sides. So that they can take your words and compare it with what the scripture says. And they can take my words and compare it with what the scripture says. This allows them the freedom to decide for themselves which way it true. For it is not you or I who have any power to convince them, but the word of God alone. For his sheep know his voice and they follow him.

Hey Nabster,


.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The BOM has a testimony of 3 witnesses. The BOM has prophecy about the testimony of these 3 witnesses. But these 3 witnesses all became apostates!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">seriously this belongs in the Mormon thread. Nonetheless - 2 of the three returned to the faith before they died and none of them ever recanted their witness of the Book of Mormon. One even was questioned by a court of law and while under oath would not recant the account of the three witnesses. Also, the three witnesses weren't Apostles, the 12 Apostles (in the latter-days) were called much later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God would never, ever choose 3 witnesses who he knew in advance, would become apostates!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this statement presumes that you know the mind of God. Do you claim to?

Besides, how many people were chosen of God only to royally screw things up throughout the scriptures? David, Solomon, Saul (there's three - three in a row in fact). It happens.

God's perfect. His chosen vessels aren't. They are prone to error, pride, and mistakes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, they can read it and it says that it is true. OR someone can preach the gospel to them, which brings them into saving faith, and they will know it is true.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this is your failproof plan? That's pretty weak. I'm surprised that you're still sticking to your guns that prayer is an illegitimate means of learning the truth.

The Book of Mormon isn't new truth. It was written between 600 BC and 421 AD - that' not new.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wholeheartedly agree with your statement, but trusting in the Lord and not leaning on our own understanding means trusting in his word ALONE.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What you mean here is to trust in the interpretation of the word of the Lord that you ascribe to. Funny, but Proverbs 3:5 says "trust in the Lord" not "trust in the Lord's word" Who is twisting scripture now?

1 Corinthians 2:9 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Clearly God meant for us to have more and know more than simply what the Bible contains.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> seriously this belongs in the Mormon thread. Nonetheless - 2 of the three returned to the faith before they died and none of them ever recanted their witness of the Book of Mormon. One even was questioned by a court of law and while under oath would not recant the account of the three witnesses. Also, the three witnesses weren't Apostles, the 12 Apostles (in the latter-days) were called much later.”

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/testimonyof3.htm

[quote] this statement presumes that you know the mind of God. Do you claim to?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 Corinthians 2:16 “ 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> this is your failproof plan? That's pretty weak</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, actually it’s not my fail proof plan nor my pretty weak plan, it is God’s Plan.

Romans 10:17 “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” (the Gospel)

1 Corinthians 15:2 “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

Here it is called foolishness to those who are perishing, and you called it a “pretty weak plan” So is it foolishness to you? Because for me, it is the power of God!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> What you mean here is to trust in the interpretation of the word of the Lord that you ascribe to. Funny, but Proverbs 3:5 says "trust in the Lord" not "trust in the Lord's word" Who is twisting scripture now?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You just told me in another thread while questioning my sincerity about my love of the LDS people that you would wait to see if my words would show that to be true. So what you are inferring is that if my words prove trustworthy, then I am trustworthy.
You are saying that you won’t trust in me until you can trust in my word first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
________________________________________
Clearly God meant for us to have more and know more than simply what the Bible contains.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Have you been taught that this verse means that we are meant to have more and know more than what the Bible says? Because when I read the very next verse it says :1 Corinthians 2:10”but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.”

It says it has already been revealed. It does not say more will be revealed.

You know Joel, I am not accusing you of anything in my posts, I am simply trying to point out how the teachings of the LDS is deceiving and is like the blind leading the blind. And I am trying to show what those teachings are leading you to do. I am sure you don't realize it and therefore I blame Satan alone, okay?

.

Echo,

this all belongs in the Mormon thread.

Please don't quote my words and insert a link within the quote to an avowed anti-Mormon website.

About Saintsalive - I've gone over this before. There are alot of anti-Mormon websites out there and unfortunately for you, you chose the least reliable of them all. Even other anti-Mormons denounce saintsalive for using deceptive means that give all anti-Mormons a bad name. Any anti-Mormon literature connected in any way with Ed Decker is completely unreliable and citing it doesn't lend credence to your arguments but rather detracts from what you've written.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 Corinthians 2:16 “ 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So that is a yes? You do claim to know the mind of God? Does anyone else find this odd and a little presumptuous?

Most theologians agree that Paul here is referring to those who have been called as Apostles, including himself. Echo, are you an apostle?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, actually it’s not my fail proof plan nor my pretty weak plan, it is God’s Plan.

Romans 10:17 “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” (the Gospel)

1 Corinthians 15:2 “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

Here it is called foolishness to those who are perishing, and you called it a “pretty weak plan” So is it foolishness to you? Because for me, it is the power of God!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">so this works for you? Every time?

I suggest you go out and try out this system in a practical way. Go to a largely immigrant neighborhood and start knocking on some doors and reading your message. See by practical example how effective your message is and how receptive they are to the mere hearing of the word.

I've spent a couple of years as a missionary. Often I would be teaching Muslims and I would be teaching them solely about accepting Christ as Savior and recieving forgiveness of sins through his Atonement. Moreover, I would be teaching them this from the Bible. Did they accept? No. Those who accepted were those who I could persuade to pray. I would ask them to pray to God asking whether or not Jesus was the Savior (I know it sounds like a silly question to someone raised as a Christian). When I could convince them to pray and when they did actually follow through with their promise, the Holy Spirit would confirm the truth to them in truly dramatic fashion.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know Joel, I am not accusing you of anything in my posts, I am simply trying to point out how the teachings of the LDS is deceiving and is like the blind leading the blind. And I am trying to show what those teachings are leading you to do. I am sure you don't realize it and therefore I blame Satan alone, okay?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And I am sure you don't realize the extent to which you've been deceived, and therefore I don't blame you either, I blame Satan alone.

How condescending can a person be? Have you read what you posted to me aloud to see how ludicrous it sounds?

Believe me Echo, I'm not offended, I'm amused.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Please don't quote my words and insert a link within the quote to an avowed anti-Mormon website. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My apologies to you Joel for putting that link in your quote, I have only had my computer since July, I am new at windows and the internet, and I am hyper learning to keep up.

What is your definition of anti-LDS? Is it people who Hate Mormons? Or people who hate Mormon doctrine but love the Mormons? I will have to research what you said about Saints Alive. Do you have any links to back this up to help me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Most theologians agree that Paul here is referring to those who have been called as Apostles, including himself. Echo, are you an apostle?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In 1 Corinthians Paul addresses the entire content of the letter to:

1 Corinthians 1:2 “ To the Church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours;”

So he is not speaking to the apostles, he is speaking to ALL who call on the name of Jesus Christ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I suggest you go out and try out this system in a practical way. Go to a largely immigrant neighborhood and start knocking on some doors and reading your message. See by practical example how effective your message is and how receptive they are to the mere hearing of the word.

I've spent a couple of years as a missionary. Often I would be teaching Muslims and I would be teaching them solely about accepting Christ as Savior and receiving forgiveness of sins through his Atonement. Moreover, I would be teaching them this from the Bible. Did they accept? No. Those who accepted were those who I could persuade to pray. I would ask them to pray to God asking whether or not Jesus was the Savior (I know it sounds like a silly question to someone raised as a Christian). When I could convince them to pray and when they did actually follow through with their promise, the Holy Spirit would confirm the truth to them in truly dramatic fashion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

This passage does not say to pray, how does faith come? Through the message.

Why do people reject the message we bring? Why does it not work? Because the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. But not everyone finds the message of the cross foolish.

What does God tell us to do?

Mark 13:10 “And the gospel must first be preached to all nations”

Acts 8:25 “When they had testified and proclaimed the word of the Lord, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages.”

Romans 15:20 “It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known”

Galatians 2:7 “On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles”

Ephesians 1:13 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,”

Faith comes from “hearing” the gospel, not from praying if Jesus is the Savior. It is the message of the gospel that brings faith into the heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> the Holy Spirit would confirm the truth to them in truly dramatic fashion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Believe me Echo, I'm not offended, I'm amused.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is unfortunate that you are amused; I am not amused, because if I were amused, I really wouldn’t care about you and the fact that you are being deceived. But I respect you and what you have to say and at the same time I tell you what I think in a loving and respectful way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> this all belongs in the Mormon thread</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Post your answer in the Mormon thread

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do people reject the message we bring? Why does it not work? Because the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. But not everyone finds the message of the cross foolish.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So would the good Christian simply not pursue those who are perishing?

I understand what you're saying, I agree with you that the Lord's word in the Bible can be very convincing to those who hear it.

I guess what surprises me is that you are so adamantly against anyone praying to ask God for a confirmation of truth.

What if you want to believe the Bible you've studied it thoroughly and yet you still have doubts. Couldn't a simple prayer and confirmation through the Holy Spirit erase those doubts.

Personally, I believe that anyone who reads the Bible without bias will in the end determine that it preaches truth. But I also believe that the Bible tells us that if we lack wisdom we can ask God for that wisdom. It also tells us that if we ask we shall recieve. I know that it says over and over the word of the Lord is true, but who in today's world would willingly believe everything they read? Do you?

Now you'll say, "but this isn't everything, this is just God's word." and my response remains - what about the person that isn't sure, even after reading or hearing the word of God if it is true or not? I mean look at John 6:66-69 many of his disciples leave Jesus because what he preaches isn't always easy to live up to. The Apostles stay, but many leave. If hearing the words of God directly from the mouth of Jesus isn't enough to convince these folks who are called disciples, then what is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Most theologians agree that Paul here is referring to those who have been called as Apostles, including himself. Echo, are you an apostle?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In 1 Corinthians Paul addresses the entire content of the letter to:

1 Corinthians 1:2 “ To the Church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours;”

So he is not speaking to the apostles, he is speaking to ALL who call on the name of Jesus Christ.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm taking that interpretation from what I've read on the verse from very mainstream Christian theologians - in other words, it's not a Mormon thing. Still I'm wondering if anyone else finds it odd that Echo presumes she knows the mind and will of God? nabster? Allen? anyone?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
the Holy Spirit would confirm the truth to them in truly dramatic fashion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hasn't the Holy Spirit ever spoken to your soul? Haven't you ever felt God's convincing power course through you such that you cannot deny what you've learned?

Hi Joel,

I assumed you wanted to move this conversation to the Mormon thread?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So would the good Christian simply not pursue those who are perishing?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A good Christian will pursue all people. God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I guess what surprises me is that you are so adamantly against anyone praying to ask God for a confirmation of truth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am only against it because I like to do things the way Jesus did as I explained earlier.
I don’t need confirmation of the truth, The bible is confirmation of the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> What if you want to believe the Bible you've studied it thoroughly and yet you still have doubts. Couldn't a simple prayer and confirmation through the Holy Spirit erase those doubts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Faith in the gospel is the only thing that will help anyone to believe the rest of the Bible.
Truth is not based on subjective feelings. Subjective feelings are not always reliable. The word of God is objective and through the word of God, our feelings are shaped.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Personally, I believe that anyone who reads the Bible without bias will in the end determine that it preaches truth. But I also believe that the Bible tells us that if we lack wisdom we can ask God for that wisdom. It also tells us that if we ask we shall receive. I know that it says over and over the word of the Lord is true, but who in today's world would willingly believe everything they read? Do you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe that we can ask God for wisdom, but he answers those prayers through his word.
Through his truth. I also believe that if we ask, we shall receive. But we only receive that which is in agreement with the Will of God. Asking God to reveal if something is true is not in the Will of God, his truth has already been revealed in the Bible.

I don’t willingly believe everything I read, I willingly believe everything the Bible says because I adore the message of the gospel, I have never heard anything like it before! Clearly the message of the gospel stands distinct from any other religious message.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Now you'll say, "but this isn't everything, this is just God's word." and my response remains - what about the person that isn't sure, even after reading or hearing the word of God if it is true or not? I mean look at John 6:66-69 many of his disciples leave Jesus because what he preaches isn't always easy to live up to. The Apostles stay, but many leave. If hearing the words of God directly from the mouth of Jesus isn't enough to convince these folks who are called disciples, then what is?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are making the wrong point, the point is that just like those disciples left Jesus, so to they will when we preach to them. If they will not listen when hearing the words of God right from his mouth (for Jesus is God) Then nothing can save them. The fault lies in the men and not in God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I'm taking that interpretation from what I've read on the verse from very mainstream Christian theologians - in other words, it's not a Mormon thing. Still I'm wondering if anyone else finds it odd that Echo presumes she knows the mind and will of God?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I don’t believe every teaching of mainstream Christian theologians. I believe in the word of God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">. the Holy Spirit would confirm the truth to them in truly dramatic fashion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hasn't the Holy Spirit ever spoken to your soul? Haven't you ever felt God's convincing power course through you such that you cannot deny what you've learned?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How? You haven’t answered the question.

Like I said above, my feelings and emotions are shaped by the word of God and do not come from outside the word of God. Yes, I have felt God’s convincing power coursing through me so that I cannot deny what I have learned . But it always happens through the word.

Just as soon as you begin posting your answers over in the Mormon thread, I am willing to comply.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I assumed you wanted to move this conversation to the Mormon thread?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I left this stuff here because I don't see it as Mormon stuff. You can check the Mormon thread for the parts of my response that belong there.

I think you and I have a communication problem. I don't really know if it's me being unclear in what I write or you not fully reading what I write. Half of your responses seem like they are responding to an entirely different statement than the one I made.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Faith in the gospel is the only thing that will help anyone to believe the rest of the Bible.
Truth is not based on subjective feelings. Subjective feelings are not always reliable. The word of God is objective and through the word of God, our feelings are shaped.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is what I'm talking about with the confusion - I never said anything about subjective feelings - where did you get that from. I'm talking about God answering prayers. Do you believe he can do that or not?

Your system of converting the heathen is woefully inadequate. What about someone like Mouse who has read the Bible and yet doesn't believe. I know that the good Christian wouldn't forsake him, but your answer seems to be "Read the Bible again." What if he does and still doesn't believe? What about that guy. The one who wants to believe but can't? Saying that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Faith in the gospel is the only thing that will help anyone to believe the rest of the Bible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">is circular in nature. Isn't the gospel contained in the Bible? So how can faith in the Gospel help you believe the Bible when that's the whole problem to begin with? It's a circular argument.

The Bible alone cannot make the Bible true. There has to be an outside source to confirm it's veracity. Why can't God answering a prayer be that outside source?

You do realize that this is the essence of the conversation we're having:

Joel: What makes the Bible true?
Echo: The Bible
J: but what if you don't believe in the Bible
E: The Bible
J: I understand that, but how can you know that the Bible is true without using the Bible
E: The Bible
J: Isn't there another way?
E: The Bible

...Perhaps Echo is the most appropriate appelation you could have chosen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I think you and I have a communication problem</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, You are doing a pretty good job, not too worry,

Hang in there, just ask me for clarification when I’ve lost ya my friend!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> This is what I'm talking about with the confusion - I never said anything about subjective feelings - where did you get that from. I'm talking about God answering prayers. Do you believe he can do that or not?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh heh, Ya, I am seeing what is coming and I am getting ahead of myself…
Sorry. I better go back a few steps.

You said that when you would get the Muslims to pray to God to ask wether or not Jesus was the savior that: “the Holy Spirit would confirm the truth to them in truly dramatic fashion”

Could you tell me what happened? What was so dramatic about it?

I will answer the rest of your post when you answer this so I don’t go on way ahead of the topic and talking about something we haven’t got to yet. And if I forget, remind me cause I am so forgetful sometimes! Thanks for being patient with me.

.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You said that when you would get the Muslims to pray to God to ask wether or not Jesus was the savior that: “the Holy Spirit would confirm the truth to them in truly dramatic fashion”

Could you tell me what happened? What was so dramatic about it?

I will answer the rest of your post when you answer this so I don’t go on way ahead of the topic and talking about something we haven’t got to yet. And if I forget, remind me cause I am so forgetful sometimes! Thanks for being patient with me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have already answered that.

The Holy Spirit answers prayers in different ways for different people and in different ways at different times. Some would hear a voice distinct from their own and coming from without. Some would feel the warm embrace of the spirit. Some would feel the spirit speaking directly to their soul. In any case the impression left by the spirit was so strong that it couldn't be denied.

Yes, but what does the Bible say:

Romans 10:17 "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

Romans 1:16 "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes"

1 Corinthians 15:2 "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed "

It says that the "MESSAGE" of the gospel is what brings faith. It is the gospel that saves us. It is the word preached to us.

I can not pray about the gospel to see if it is true. I must hear the message of the gospel to see if it is true.

Yes, God answers prayers but always in accordance with his already revealled will and truth in the Bible. Faith never comes through prayer, faith comes from hearing the message of the gospel. THAT is his revealled will.

We need "TRUTH" in order to know how to pray, what to pray for, and how God answers our prayer. Anything that comes apart from "already revealled truth" is only "Human Interpretation"
In other words, What I percieve as answered prayer, is in reality, my interpretation saying that it was an answer to prayer. In other words, I am deciding what is an answer and what is not. (does that make sense) But if I go to the Bible first, it is the truth, I learn there how God answers prayer, then when I pray, I will recognize the answer. I will know what to pray for etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In other words, What I percieve as answered prayer, is in reality, my interpretation saying that it was an answer to prayer. In other words, I am deciding what is an answer and what is not. (does that make sense) But if I go to the Bible first, it is the truth, I learn there how God answers prayer, then when I pray, I will recognize the answer. I will know what to pray for etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Answers directly from God are not really subject to interpretation. God doesn't always give the answer you expect. Sometimes he says no. Sometimes he sends you a different direction. Had you experienced an answer from God in this fashion you would know beyond doubt that it comes from without and not from within.

On the other hand the existence of the board and the existence of countless Christian denominations prove beyond debate that the Bible is very much subject to interpretation.

Moreover, when you say. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I must hear the message of the gospel to see if it is true.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">that sounds like you are trusting more in your intellect than in the power of God. Explain it better, maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I know where you stand Echo. That's fine. I completely disagree. I point to James 1:5 again. If you lack wisdom, you can ask God and he will give it to you. Not knowing if the Bible is true is lacking wisdom.

Quote all those scriptures to me again and that's fine, none of them say that prayer is an invalid means of building faith.

Is not Luke 17:5 "Increase our faith" in essence a prayer? the only difference is that they are speaking to Jesus face to face.

At any rate we must agree to disagree, plus I'd really like to know what other people think on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Answers directly from God are not really subject to interpretation. God doesn't always give the answer you expect. Sometimes he says no. Sometimes he sends you a different direction. Had you experienced an answer from God in this fashion you would know beyond doubt that it comes from without and not from within.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, Answers are subject to interpretation. Especially if they are not discerned by first reading the word of God. The Bible warns of false spirits, of Satan! If you base your answered prayer on your “feelings” and nothing else, that “IS” your own interpretation! It is “YOUR FEELINGS” It is completely subjective.
Whereas, my subjective feelings are shaped by the objective word.
Yes God has answered many of my prayers! But I can see what his answer is and what is not by only FIRST going to the scripture. I must first believe in the scripture.

God does not answer prayers of the unbeliever. Therefore, the prayer to God to see if his word is “TRUE” won’t get answered because you must first have faith before God will answer your prayers!

See John 14 & 16 and also Isaiah 59:2 “But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.”

God does care for believer and unbeliever alike, he cares for all his creatures but for example, a native may do a rain dance as a pagan prayer, and God will send rain, because he is merciful, but not in answer to a pagan prayer. The Pagan may feel God has answered his prayer but God has not answered his prayer, God sends rain on the righteous and the wicked, because of his mercy and love, not because of a pagan prayer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> On the other hand the existence of the board and the existence of countless Christian denominations prove beyond debate that the Bible is very much subject to interpretation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible is not subject to interpretation. The dilemma does not lie with the Bible but rather with men. Whenever we place anything as more important than the Bible!
The problem today is that many place their emotions, traditions, desires, logic and reasoning above what God has said and come up with their own interpretation.
Whenever we put anything above the word of God, it is Idolatry. In my Church, we let scripture interpret scripture. So if there is a passage that is unclear, we find other passages that make the unclear passage clear. Scripture can never contradict scripture. So if we understand a passage to mean one thing and then see at some point that it contradicts another, we know that our interpretation is wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> quote:
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I must hear the message of the gospel to see if it is true.
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that sounds like you are trusting more in your intellect than in the power of God. Explain it better, maybe I'm misunderstanding you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. “

I am not trusting in my intellect; I am trusting in the Gospel, The Gospel IS THE POWER OF GOD. (Not yelling, just emphasizing) Everything else if foolishness.
But to those who are perishing, the gospel is foolishness.

Joel, the reason you feel the message of the Gospel is foolishness is because you have not yet heard and understood the true Gospel. Could I share that with you now? Will you try to listen and understand what I say? Because at this present time, you and I believe in a totally different Gospel. You believe in a false Gospel and a false Christ. There is only ONE gospel and one Christ that saves. I would love to have you meet the true Christ and hear the true Gospel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Is not Luke 17:5 "Increase our faith" in essence a prayer? the only difference is that they are speaking to Jesus face to face.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it is a prayer, but it is a prayer to “INCREASE” our faith, it is not a prayer to “GIVE US FAITH” Remember, that God does not answer the prayer of the unbeliever. We must first believe. We can only believe from hearing the message of the gospel.