Wow... I really shouldn't be taking the time to do this, but I got bored and came back for a peek to see if anyone had responded to me post, and found an outright attack on my beliefs, that I didn't even bring up.
sdibias - you said "I just don't see it..." What don't you see? The only thing I said anything about was clarifying an incorrect statement you had made. There was nothing to "not see." Then you had the audacity to tell me I don't know what I believe.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It makes sense that I am right in my comment about kids. We both know that you obviously have a choice to have lots of kids, but this certainly stems from the fact that you're supposedly bringing them down from the Heavens, It makes sense to me...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That, said right after I told you what the Mormon position on it is (that there isn't one, and I know that from very personal experience, seeing as how I'm a Mormon), is very directly calling me a liar. It doesn't matter what "makes sense to you" - I told you what the Mormon doctrine is. I promise I'm not lying to you.
Then you go on and make numerous unwarranted, uncalled for attacks against my church. Even though all of this has been extensively covered in the Mormons thread, I'll go over it all again briefly, so you don't have to search through that mess.
First off, polygamy - it's in the Bible. Remember Jacob? Abraham? David? Solomon? There must be some instance in which the practice of polygamy is ordained of God, for it was in the case of those Old Testament prophets. Can you explain to me the Christian doctrine behind those polygamists? The Book of Mormon has an explanation of it, and it's in Jacob 2:27-30
- it basically says that the purpose of polygamy is to raise up a people unto God. So, the practice of polygamy has Biblical precedent (which you cannot lightly dismiss), and we have a reason for it. Now to the part about "abandoning" it. John Taylor, the 3rd prophet of my church, spent most of his time as prophet in hiding because of the issue of polygamy, and many members of my church went to prison for it. But he didn't claim revelation in order to make things easier for himself or for the members. He died in hiding, then Wilford Woodruff became the next prophet. He was in hiding for a while to, and would have stayed in hiding (as evidenced by the fact that John Taylor died before he gave up what he believed (and I believe) was a commandment of God) had he not been commanded by God to stop the practice. There was none of this "shortly thereafter" stuff. And the "Publicly at least" - now you accuse my whole church of being liars. There are people in southern Utah and other places who practice polygamy and call themselves Mormon, but they have no affiliation with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormon church). Anyone who has practiced polygamy since 1890 has been excommunicated. This is a very cursory defense of polygamy, but I don't really have the time or the interest right now to do more. You might be able to find more on the Mormon thread if you're interested.
As far as what you claimed about the Book of Mormon - have you ever read it? There is power in that book, and I would suggest (ask) that you read it before making judgements like that. Certainly there are parts that say the same thing as the Bible - you'd think God would say the same thing to different people, so there should be some overlap. Does the fact that the New Testament says some of the same things as the Old Testament make the New Testament false? Again there's a whole lot more I could say about it, but I don't have time, and chances are you don't really care anyway (if you want to get into evidences of authorship, there's this ancient Hebrew literary form called chiasmus I would like to introduce to you, of which the best example in all
world literature, ever
, is in the Book of Mormon - kinda suggests it was written by an ancient Israelite, doesn't it?). I would suggest (ask, even plead) that you postpone judgement on the Book of Mormon until you've read it yourself, cover to cover. Anything less would only give you a prejudiced, uninformed opinion. Blatantly attacking something you have no experience with isn't something Christ would do, is it?
Third, you mentioned (what we refer to as) baptism for the dead. Interesting that you bring this one up too; see, it's also in the Bible. Look up 1 Corinthians 15:29. That's not where we get our doctrine from, but it's evidence that the early Christians did it. I won't take more time here defending the fact that it is a practice ordained by God (if the Bible isn't evidence enough of that), because you mentioned Hitler. Honestly, I don't know anything about this alleged "cover-up," but if Hitler or Stalin wanted a chance to repent, do you think Christ would give it to him? Who are you to say someone is unworthy of forgiveness? Now, I'm not saying that my church thinks either one of them has been forgiven (we don't know - that's between him and God). When we do a baptism in behalf of someone who is dead, what we believe happens is they have the opportunity to either accept it or reject it - it's not forced upon them. So I see no problem in performing a baptism in behalf of Adolf Hitler, because if he accepted it, that means he repented, and God got one more prodigal son back that I'm sure He'd be very happy to have, and if he didn't, that's his problem. We are not condoning their actions by performing a baptism in behalf of them.
And, last, was this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Mormons were vilified by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in his first Sherlock Holmes story, "A Study in Scarlet." It was also Mormon settlers who precipitated the war between Earth and Klendathu in the movie Starship Troopers.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really don't see what the point of this is. The only purpose this has is to belittle my church. It says nothing of doctrine, it doesn't even make one of the all-to-frequent character attacks on the leaders of my church. The only thing it says is that someone made fun of us. What in the world does that prove? If I go and make a joke about Jews, does that all of a sudden count as evidence that Judaism is false? No, it just means I need to repent, 'cause I'm guilty of belittling someone else. I've been in lots of religious discussions before, and I've never seen this - comedic satire used as evidence in a theological debate.
So, I just don't see where all of this came from. All of these attacks, and all I said was "Mormons think families are important." The only part of your post that was in any way called for was the first two paragraphs, and even that was just calling me a liar. Why get so defensive, even offensive? I was very offended by that post, and I got pretty upset. I tried very hard not to be angry back at you, but I'm sorry if I didn't do a good job all the time. I really don't have time to keep on doing this, and it's all repeats of the same thing, anyway. If I thought you really cared I would be happy to take the time to explain these things to you, but it's been my experience that no one who makes attacks like that will ever listen if I try to answer them. Feel free to prove me wrong - please do. I would love it if people would stop just blindly believing everything they're told about my church from antagonistic sources (which is interesting, because that blind obedience is something we are very often accused of (which is also extremely false)), and actually listen to someone who personally knows what they're talking about.
I guess the whole point of this is - please don't believe everything you read about my church (unless you get it from the right source: lds.org or mormon.org). I can promise you that almost everything you can find about Mormonism that's not written by a Mormon is almost entirely either outright lies or intentionally misleading. I've seen the claims people make about my church, and I've found the answers to them (I've been through this kind of thing a lot). Please postpone judgement, like Christ told us to do.
And now I really don't have time for this anymore, so if anyone is interested in hearing the truth about my church feel free to send me a private message.
(Sorry, Allen, that this isn't in the Mormon thread, but this is where sdibias brought it up)