I know and understand that the thoughts of terminating a pregnancy are an unequivical no to the members here. I know and understand that the reason is a matter of murder.

This is where my question comes in. Even in a case where delivery "may" endanger the mothers life the pregnancy must continue. Under any circumstances would the word "will" make a difference?

Situation, there is a pregnancy that involves twins. To continue the pregnancy would assure both fetuses to die. Medical history leaves no room of a "may" die. In each and every identical situation documented both "have" died. Also in every identical situation where one was terminated the other "always" lived.

It seems to me that since terminating/murdering one of the fetuses isn't a viable choice to pro life people who won't even entertain situations of choice this would end up being a double murder by standing a no choice stance.

Can anyone please try giving me an answer that justifies knowingly killing two? This is not in any way meant to be anything but what it is, a very confused person. I understand my ways are different. I just can't seem to find any reasoning in my mind that would justify killing both by not making the choice to save one.

Ok atleast for me this is how I feel.

God is the giver of life. A woman gets pregnant and is faced with the situation you are speaking of. She knows that God is the giver of life and she leads a life of complete faith in God no matter what. I feel that to that woman she is having a faith based pregnancy instead of listening to what others tell her she is faithful to the fact that God's will will be done. She decides killing one to save the other is not her choice to make, its God's. I believe that if both babies are meant to die both will, if God's will is for one to die than it will and if God's will is for both to live then they will.

Think of the story of Job, God let satan take everything from Job and even then cause Job to be sick and not be well. Job's wife even told Job to just curse God and Job wouldn't his faith remained in God and God never fails us. Everything in Job's life happened for a reason, just like with our lives everything happens for a reason but in the end God uses every reason,every hurt and every happiness to teach us something and to strengthen us.

The women with a faith based pregnancy, I believe has an amazing unshakeable relationship with her Heavenly Father and is not willing to let anything come between her and God, not even the death or life of her children. I hope I helped some.

society tries to compromise a belief with "what if " and "never has it happened". in the dr's opinion of saving one life you kill another? if we look hard enough we find many reasons to "okay " an abortion, and if we look hard enough in scripture we will ample reason to not "okay"it. it is murder and it is wrong. under any and every circumstance. what many do not understand is we base abortion decisions on dr experience and opinion as if they know it all and are gods themselves. way too many times has a dr been wrong to give him/her that kind of credibility.
nabster

Being male I want to insert logic into the process. I cannot fathom the feelings and emotions that a woman must be assaulted with by hearing such news. I have heard of that happening before and albeit an extremly rare occurence (the taking of one twin) it has happened before and will again, I am sure.

I support Melissa's faith argument fully. (I do want to make sure that people know that I do not support those who people who will NOT see a Dr. or allow their kids too based on belief that God's will, will be done.... )

Faith HAS to become part of the equation. If does not then you are faced with horrific choices.

1. Which one to you terminate?
2. How do you decide, flip a coin?
3. What if you had waited a week, a month?
4. Would you, could you, give your life so that others might live?

I cannot say what I would do in that exact situation. I do know that as I sit here right now the mere possibilities tear at my heart. I do not know if I could be the one to decide who's life is "more important" mother, or either child.


I do know that abortion is wrong in any instance, just like divorce. I also do know that there is nothing that we can do, that God cannot forgive. There is no choice that we can make (except one) that will separate us from God.

Pray, choose and pray some more. Remember this is a temporary condition, it doesn't end here!

God sees all human life as equal. to value one over the other is wrong. to say that mother is more valuable than child is wrong. strangely enough i am trying to teach and convey this topic to my wed night class of 21 and up young adults. evryone kept saying what if the mother this and what if rape and what if the child and what if what if what if...
the Bible is clear, life begins at conception, life taken by choice is murder. as Christians the grey area(what if's) need to be erased and we need to stand firm in our faith that abortion of any kind is wrong. in the Old Testament God gives example in Exodus 21(i believe) about unintentional/accidental "abortion" ...(not womans fault)he sees it as the same punishment as murder. so it reasonable to say that intentional abortion is murder.examples in psalm 139, isaiah, and jeremiah would clearly indicate that life happens and God knows us and plans for us in the womb.
How many times have the doctors said one thing and been wrong.
It is fact that that the same doctors in the usa
kill over 300,000 people annually with wrong prescripotions and misdiagnoses. I will put my trust and my faith and my child in the hands of my God. dont get me wrong, i will also use evry ounce of medical science available but in balance with the word of God.
over 4100 abortions per day happen in this country,it sickens my heart and troubles my soul.
the devil has a hand in it, and i am choosing to fight it.
Nabster

It's a grey area - it's not black and white.

Is killing an attacker in defense of yourself or your family wrong? If it is, then all of us GWB/Iraqi War supporters on this site better do some fast explaining. Lookee there, taking a life isn't always murder.

Look at Jesus - his sacrifice on the cross was essentially suicide. He had all the power to be able to stop it, but he didn't. However in this instance the greater good was served.

The Bible is replete with instances where commandments are laid aside in favor of the greater good or for an immediately necessary or superceding yet conflicting commandment. (see Saul being commanded to destroy the Amalekite nation and being reprimanded for showing a little mercy afterward)

Am I in favor of abortion? Absolutely not.

I must say I have always been taught that with Faith there is no grey area. There is simply black and there is simply white. My old youth pastor actually told us one night,now many of you may not agree but he didn't sugarcote anything and this is what he said, "If you choose white your choosing heaven, if you choose black your choosing hell. There is no grey when it comes to God...so I want you to make a decision are you choosing white or black. For those of you choosing white I want you to go home and tell your parents "hey mom and dad i'm going to heaven" and for those of you choosing black i'm sorry to say but i want you to go home and say "hey mom and dad i'm going to hell".

Trust me when your a teenager and your youth pastor makes that statement you feel a few different things 1)who does he think he is 2)thats it i'm done i'm walking out 3)he's right. I don't know anyone in my youth group that chose number 2 but I do know alot that chose number 3. It gets you thinking about what you wanna be able to tell your parents and how you wanna be when you stand before God.

Hebrews 11:1 says "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

Sorry for talking so much and kinda getting off topic.

He's actually half-right and half-wrong. Get it?

God most definitely has the ability to see through the gray areas and determine which are actually black and which are actually white, in fact to him there is no gray. We, however, aren't so lucky. That's the difference between us and God. So he gives us the power of prayer and the Holy Spirit. Hopefully, when we exercise the power of prayer we can attune ourselves with his Holy Spirit and he can make the gray appear either black or white depending on its true nature.

I'm sorry, but the Bible doesn't always give us enough to answer every question. I don't find a definitive answer in the Bible for UKC's question either - and I have a sinking suspicion the answer may be different for different people in the same situation. The Bible says don't murder, but situations in the Bible make it clear that "self-defence" or the "defence of others" sort of suspend the rules about employing deadly force.

In UKC's hypothetical we actually see a little bit of the dilemma God himself faced - How can one sacrifice one Son to save another? God did it and for him the choice was easy.

Again, I'm not saying abort the one to save the other. Maybe that's the wrong answer. Maybe the fact that neither can survive together is notice from God that for whatever reason these two children weren't meant for this world at this time(that's sort of the way I've always looked at miscarriages). Only God knows.

Abortion as birth control is an abomination - women have the right to choose up to and prior to the time of conception. Once conception occurs there is no more choice. However, when complications arise in a pregnancy that may threaten a life - any life (baby, babies or mother) - then we have to rely on God and make the best out of a difficult situation. In my book taking a life is the same as refusing to save a life when you are perfectly able.

abortion is premeditated as opposed to self defense. self defense is not murder. war is altogether different.
we can split hairs all day but abortion is evry situation is wrong.

we had this discussion about the mothers life and the babies life in another forum I shared a story and I know the people I talked about personally so I will not repeat the story but I can't help but this that we all know the difference between right and wrong God just built us that way, we have a choice to choose right or to choose wrong. I think Faith is the only way. Doesn't the bible say in Matthew 17:20 'He replied,"Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this moutain.'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." '

How amazing is that that the bible actually says if you have even the littlest amount of faith, if you truly believe in it then you could move a mountain. I think all the woman needs is faith like I said before. Again sorry for rambling

Difficult question, I'm not familiar with any situation in which killing one twin would allow another to live, but I'm guessing it's possible... In a case like that one would usually be delivered as late into the gestation as possible, this would almost always necessitate the delivery of the other one as well, since their blood supplies (placentas) are usually tied in at some point.

I don't really have an answer...

I'm not at all sure what I expected if anything. I feel obligated to say something here. Reading all of the replies has set my head spinning faster than when I first asked the question. I need some time to digest it all and perhaps find words to talk again. Thank you all for the replies and when I feel at all ready/competent to say more I will. I have to admit, certain responses have provoked certain thoughts. I'm praying for the words that will be most neutral.

Go ahead UKC... light a fire


dare ya


(love ya bro!)

OK, this of course if just personal feelings and why I feel so blessed to not have to make this decision.

I wasn't at all surprised by the black or white thought process. I was a little surprised that Steve didn't absolutely take that stand and that would be that. If I read correctly, if in the situation he just may make a decision to save one of the lives.

I'm all for faith! Without it the world would be a bigger mess than it is. My own faith has seen me through much in my life and I thank God for giving it to me daily.

But, and you know with me there usually is one. I wonder if we sometimes misuse or don't use that faith to it's fullest. If faith that God's will will be done and that all things are in his hands and we just have to pray and have faith we also don't need to take much responsibility for anything. It's ALL always on God.

In this instance, with my case scenario and there being no variables (which was my absolute intent) just black and white. Not sacrificing one means both die. Why would God allow the knowledge and technology to be able to save one of the lives if he didn't want or expect us to use it? Long before the medical science we have now there were no warning prognosis. Chances are people knew there was something wrong with the pregnancy but no idea what or if something could be done about it. In this instance faith was all we had. All we could do was pray God would see us through it and accept the outcome as His will.

But He has allowed medicine to advance. He has allowed people to learn more about both life and death. Unless this learning and knowledge is of satan(which I don't) it's there to be used. Steve mentioned that God can and does forgive all sin but one. So it seems to me aborting one and saving the other is a forgiveable sin. But, of course with my mind I question whether it is sin or not.

In another discussion, sin was the subject and it seemed there were knowledgeable steps involved in actually sinning. The absolute knowledge that something was sinful. The contemplating committing the sin. Then finally carrying through. If memory serves, INTENT was a very necessary factor in sinning. Since in this instance the saving of one life instead of the loss of two is the intent, I'm not absolutely sure it's sin. I even wonder if NOT using the knowledge and technology God has given us might not be a bigger sin.

Sure, doctors can be and are wrong in treatment and diagnosis. There is always the chance that could be the case. But to do nothing ever because of what I would think of as false or pseudo faith in this instance could it not be more sinful? Could we actually be doing Gods job? Deciding who lives or dies rather than using what he has given/allowed us to save a life?

To probably make this worse on my part. Although some beleive that to not be married and making babies by a certain age is sinful because of atrocities inflicted on both children and spouses I don't beleive every single person was meant by God to be married or a parent. My own personal feeling is, that perhaps the person who would take no responsibility in the saving of a life is just such a person. That if God did not intend in some cases for a life to be spared he would not have allowed the advances which could do just that.

Free will coupled with science and tecnological advancement is a very dangerous combination. When man begins to believe science in lieu of the word of God,trouble and controversy ensues. The secular world and opinoins therein have worked thier way into our belief system to the point that Bible believing Christians are beginning to reason themselves over and above the Word of God.
Science will continue to advance and lives will be saved, however to intentionally take one before even born to justify potentially saving the other is trying to play God. It is also a tremendous lack of faith, and it is specifically faith that is pleasing to God. In times of difficult decision we are to pray , and trust God. We are to use every bit of technology available UNTIL it contradicts the word of God, there we should draw the line and stand on faith.
The word of God specifically warns against harming children(i believe in the womb and outside of the womb)because thier innocence cannot be protectedon their own. He entrusts his people,as christians, to look out for them, individually and as a society. When we turn our backs on issues and are silent we are just as bad as those who are responsible. Sometimes silence is a sin, sometimes words not spoken can harm the kingdom of God as much as words spoken that do not line up with the Word of God.
Unshakeable faith will get us through any and every difficult time in our lives, even those that are controversial and do not make sense TODAY.
Nabster

UKC, faced with that exact situation, I do not know what I would do. I know scripture tells me one thing, period. I know that I have seen miracles in peoples lives. I personally have believed God for fantastic things and have them come to pass. But, faced with THAT I can only hope to have the faith and will to take the high road, and the fortitude to repent if I did not. Like you said, thankfully it is hypotheical and a decision does nto have to be rendered.

It is like when people say "well if a building was on fire I would just run in and save people." Sorry, they DO NOT "KNOW" that. They WANT to do that and it is quite admirable, but until the moment of the trial you or I will never know exactly what we will do. *note, read story of Abraham, Isaac and a certain alter...*

Just a quick side trip. You mentioned sin. There are two types of sin in each of two catagories. There is sins of "Comission" and sins of "Omission." In each of those there are two subcatagories "Knowledgable" and "Ignorant." Every conceivable sin scenario will fall somewhere in that outline.

The willingness of God to forgive sin of any type is contingent on the sinners desire to repent when confronted with the realization of the TRUTH about their sin, or anytime thereafter.

Have never heard of ignorant sin before. Does that mean that for lack of a good way to put it that mentally ill and brain damaged people who often don't know what they are doing and may not even understand the concept of right and wrong sin frequently?

I think and this is just my opinion that ignorant sin is doing something without knowing its a sin, kind of like you said UKC. Take for instance someone with multiple personalities caused by trauma when they were younger,they may do something when they are not their own self and when they become the real them they have no recollection of what they did. Not all cases of people with multiple personalities are like that but some are and in my opinion thats sorta like ignorant sin.

not submitting to authority and rebellion would fall into ignorant sin, if one doesnt realize they are actually not submitting to their authority, such as wives to husbands, employee to employer,church members to pastor etc.rebellion from a child to a parent is a sin(plz someone tell my son!).to take communion with an unclean heart not having asked for forgiveness i believe is in line with sin.for the word says for us to examine ourselves and ask for forgiveness.some new christians will not have the knowledge to know sins of ignorance or omission.
nabster

Yes Thom. I believe all sin is sin. You will be judged on your repentance or lack thereof.

If a person is mentally slow, ill or otherwise incapacitated and unable to reason it does not negate the sin (IE murder is still murder) BUT I believe that only God can confront them in a manner that they will understand when they get their moment in fromt of Him.

I truly believe that is one of the biggest reasons that God says that we are not to judge anyone here on this earth and that HE is the only one qualified to do so. He knows the heart and can comunicate with our "spirit-man." All we can do here is to point out wrong, pray and institute consequences when necesary.

hey .. all i can say on this topic, speaking as a woman who has been "foolish" in her youth and has been confronted with the issue at hand, in some respects, i back steve in saying that one cannot make a real judgement call unless they are standing in the shoes of the person with the issue at hand. one's relationship with God is different from the next and the conscious plays a role in telling what is the right way to go about repentance. i do not however feel that when sin is committed, it is unforgivable, now matter the sin. i was raised in believing in a very frogiving God and i think he can forgive any sin. how and when and to what price is different in each case. to make this black or white is vertually impossible. i feel that you have to use your faith and judgement that you have been given and live, and do what you find is in accordance.