I'll start with this is coming from a place of hurt and dismay. My sister-in-law and my niece had a surprise birthday (early) party for my other niece today. God had blessed us with a wonderful day of weather. It was just warn enough and the sky was a saphire blue with a few whispy clouds. Sounds beautiful, right?

There were over seventy people in attendance. Fourteen of us were family. My niece was saved about seven years ago. The changes in her, her children and particularly her husband who helped saved them all has been remarkable to say the least.

I've been in this situation before but not with so many members of their church. Their pastor is very careful to be sure to say hi to her family members and then tend his flock. That's well and fine, it's his job. I saw some of them at my mothers funeral almost five years ago. The pastor was there for Mary (my niece) and her husband Dave. I saw him speak to my father and my brother and sister-in-law then off to his flock.

When I got there today most of my family was already there. An area or a park had been rented for the celebration. There were two tents set up for shade. There were tables and chairs. Both tents and all seats were filled with church members. My family including my 87 year old father had to find some shade away from the main area. When I saw my niece I approached her to wish he an early happy birthday and give a card I had brought. After standing there a short while not being acknowledged I said "hi Mary" she turned long enough to take the card and say I'll see you later. She was my goddaughter until she got saved and it cut deep. Whenever she was troubled or in trouble in the past she turned to me. My brothter is a bit of a jerk and she'd run stuff by me or ask me help with him. I was the first to know she had lost her virginity. I nearly walked in on it happening in her fathers basement before a family gathering. I was the first to know about her pregnancy (prior to marriage.) Since she's been saved I'm like something to be scraped off the bottom of her shoe. Whe her husband first got saved she would come to me troubled about changes in him. I have supported her through a lot. After being dismissed while walking away somebody asked her who that was? "Oh, my dad's brother." She eventually graced the family with her presence for about ten minutes. Long enough to collect gifts and cards. Her husband made no effort to come over at all. Frankly I could care less about him. At one point, my great-niece came to say a few words to my dad. I didn't exist. He asked her if she knew who I was, she replied in the affirmative then continued to deny my existence. My gret-nephew may have come to my dad some time after I left but wasn't near any family for the two hours I stayed.

The church members stayed only to themselves. there was no interaction with my family. If they had to pass by us to the comfort station or for a beverage or anything, there was no smile, not a nod, nothing. They either looked down at the ground or were busy in conversation looking into one anothers face. Apparently the've trained their brood of kids to only respond to church members. Some kids were misbehaving and my sister-in-law asked them to please stop. It was as if she never said a word. I approached the kids and as nicely as I coluld asked them if they had heard Mary's mother ask them to stop what they were doing. Most ignored some glared in a daring kind of way. They didn't stop. So, I changed tone and wasn't as nice as I had been. It took one of the older children saying come on before he gets meaner. At any of their ages did I, a heathen, treat an adult that way. They proceded to tell my nephe-in-'aw about it and he told them not to worry I wouldn't be there long. If my father wasn't a wealthy old man I really wonder if his grandaughter and great grandchildren would pay any attention to him. They certainly don't the rest of the family.

My bother and sister-in-law live with this. If they don't they lose their daughter completely. The reason for the early party is that Mary and her family are moving to Florida. They had already bought a home and made the arrangements last November. They told my brother and sister-in-law in April. They had to put the new home they moved into just two years ago on the market so were forced into disclocure. Mary home schools the kids. They have no deadlines to meet for school. They are moving to a sister church of the one they belong to here. They want to be away from family. Should anything happen to them they want a church member to raise their children. None of the grandparents is fit to do that in their absence.

When food was about ready I heard oner of the church members (the only thing I heard from them) say "come on we're going to pray." My brother has always been a very quiet and private person. Because of his love for his daughter I was amazed to see him lead her by the hand and ask his wife to join them. He thanked God for the wonderful day, for friends and family and for all being togehter. He spoke of the sorrow of his first born leaving the state and asked for all to pray for their safe journey and for them to have a good life there. He mentioned a church members name and that she had a back injury and said we'd pray for that too. There were twoother people there who's actual birthday was today. One a family member the other a church member. He asked that all pray for them to have a rich and blessed yaer ahead of them. As most probably know Catholics don't exactly pray like other denominations. Most prayer is pretty scripted. When Catholics say grace before meals it goes like this, "Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts which we are about to recieve from Thy bounty through Christ our Lord, amen." Personally I think it's a nice prayer. Jim tried his very best to say aprayer that they would be more comfortable with. It was a nlittle rough around the edges but to me ws fine. Of course I don't think there is such a thing as a bad or wrong prayer. I can't imagine how hard it was for him to address these people. If nothing before it was certainly a testimony of a fathers love. When he finished he said "okay, let's eat." After leaving the Christian Bible thumping area some were heard to say, "now we have to properly give thanks."

Yeah, I'm in a real hurry to be saved. I sure want to live out the rest of my life being just like them. I'm so happy for my niece and her family to have found religion. If that's Christ like, maybe I should become a Unitarian Universalist. They're some of the most Christian people I know. Heck, they don't even believe and live better than these yahoos. It's why I thanked TH in the other thread for his shipboard story.

In case I didn't make it clear, my brother didn't use the Catholic grace before meals prayer. He spoke from his heart.

Orgainzed Religion, I too have my concerns about the purpose behind any structured (I know I'll get blasted later) religion.

Stemming from the shipboard story I've spent a lot of time reading Hebrews lately. A lot of time but I ain't got very far. But in just those few chapters and the changes that have happened in my life I know that my relationship with Christ is a personal one and also only between me and Him! Isn't that grand!

Man, I am so trying to get what is on my heart in words on this blank screen and it just isn't working. I guess I'm just to much of a verbal/vocal person and have not yet learned the art of getting feelings and thoughts onto paper.

Everybody in this wordl is worth of God's love. God commands me to love everyone in the world. Simple word....everyone. I do not have to like their ways, their faults, their organized religion and beliefs but...God still commands me to love them just as I love myself.

If we each took that thought and buried it in our hearts, practiced it each and every day in our lives the world would begin to be a better place.

The question posed in NE's thred was "have you ever witnessed it". Amen brother...not just then but many times in my history. But each time I can remember it either I was right in my relationship with God or the person I approached was in a right relationship. Once the love of God begins to flow through a person it can't help but to be seen and observed. If it's not then I would question the persons relationship.

*GRINS* And that statement comes froma person who has walked the path both good and bad.

U do not need to become a "Unitarian Universalist" You just need to be you and know that you are right. How do you know you ae tight? Read God's word, apply it to your daily life and begin to let His love flow through you and others will see it and know it.

There is no organized religion on the face of this earth that will get you any closer to God than his Word and it's honest application in your life, my life.

Baptist, Mormons, Methodist, Roman Catholic and any other name you can add to the list WILL NOT get us in a right relationship with Him.

STill struggling becuase my heart is bubbling with encouragement and my words are baabbling like a lunatic , sorry about that.

Know that you are in my prayers. Know that you have been a HUGE encouragement to me in the pravious months. I love ya brother!

God Bless!

I can't say it better than TH

I can almost guess which denomination church your niece attends Your brother should have ended the prayer with "If you're happy and you know it tell your face"

We're having a short series at wednesday evening services about 'sharing your faith'. My pastor shared research that shows that less than 50% of all churchs had *any* new Christians 'saved' in the last 10 years. I imagine this was due in part that people do not know how to share their faith, and in part that people on the outside looking in wouldn't want to be a part of such hypocrisy they see... where's the love?

All I can say is, nothing not even the probability of being a dying person recently has got me this down and sad. Thanks for your post TH. Allen, I'd be interested in you guess before disclosure. Another thing that didn't set real well with me is that the pastor and his wife are often referred to as mom and dad.

Allen, I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking. I really put you in a bad place with my request before my disclosing what faith it is. If you choose to PM me or if it doesn't matter to you here works too.

In the short time since my last post, a couple of other things came to mind. Guess it's pretty obvious this all is weighing heavy. The party was from 2pm to 8pm. I arrived at 3pm and had had quite enouh by five pm. During that time, not once did I see the nephew-in-law in his parents presence. My dad felt uncomfortable about that and spent a lot of time with them. I don't know them real well but they seem very nice. They, btw are not Catholic so that excuse doesn't hold for them. My nieces had daughters about two years apart. Sarah and Christy (Christine) grew up together and were very close. Sarah was all alone not part of the children playing together. Christy is nicer when it's just family but still more distant since she was baptized five years ago.

Well... there's more than one denomination that believes they're the only ones making it to heaven, so I'd expect some snobbishness if they heard and 'outsider' praying for them

If your brother didn't say "in Jesus' name" at the end of the prayer it's quite possible one of those denominations would have thought they needed to "properly give thanks". The same denomination is also known for their "holier than thou" attitudes.

I'm not positive which denomination was there, but they don't represent the "Christians" Jesus would have hung out with. They're more the pharisees of His time.

They're Baptist.

That's so sad... they don't even realize what they're doing!!!

I'd like to know, how can a person intentionally behave any certain way and not realize? This isn't accidental, it's intentional.

Years of convincing ones self.....


It can be done, sadly


Love ya bro and prayers going up for your pain and the others relationship with Him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd like to know, how can a person intentionally behave any certain way and not realize? This isn't accidental, it's intentional.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Brought a smile to my face as I thought you may have been talking to my former wife. That of course is not meant to be viewed as negative but simply as an example of what you just wrote.

It's a decision that they have made to convince themselves the opposite of what God's true nature is. Sadly...it's also a decision that they will one day answer for.

Having had time to simmer down, now I just think it's sad. Having known my niece for forty years now, my Nephew-in-law for fourteen and my great niece and nephew for fourteen and twelve years I know that basically they are good people. I always thought being a child of God was supposed to make us better people. It's sad that in this instance it's had the reverse affect.

I know they believe they are right in their practice of Christianity. The people I've known and love for a long time now, were better people before.

Hi everyone!

Lots going on in my part of the world right now....just know that I miss you all.

Thought I would weigh in on this one.

First off, it is so obvious that UK's feelings are terribly hurt. And I just hate that.

I was raised in "one of those kind of churches". (Allen knows which one I am speaking of). But, thank God, I have never been run of the mill. Mostly, because my grandma raised me and she didn't go to church. Her wise words are responsible for my intermost feelings on this subject though. She has ALWAYS told me that "it ain't the name on the door that will get you to Heaven". Meaning that it won't ONLY be Baptists or Pentecostals or Church of Christ or WHATEVER.

I have always said that if I get to Heaven and some of my Baptist friends or Catholic friends (or whoever) aren't there....and there is ever a moment to be sad...then, that will greatly sadden me. I have many friends that go to various churches....Look at PraiseCafe, for Pete's sake. We are all different. But, we are much like a family. Perhaps we are...."God's family".

I am thankful that the religion that I grew up in is moving away from alot of the old school beliefs. They are getting into a mindset of getting people in and seeing God save them....as opposed to what they look like or how much money they have.

Some things just don't matter. Some things just are not Heaven or Hell issues.

One thing that I know, is that UK knows that God loves him. And it is so sad to know that he had such a rotten experience on such a beautiful day.

One more thing....
They act like that because they have chosen to be that way.
When I was so "into" the church that I was going to, we had rules and ways that would make you think we were a cult. From no jewelry, to no hair cutting for the ladies....the the men all parting their hair on the side. Oh, and long sleeves (both winter and summer). I have seen extreme....trust me. Did that make me "more" saved than any of you....not on your life.

I love what Allen has added to the top of the site....
"It is about relationship....not rules".

That sums it up for me.

I miss you guys. Can't wait for things to calm down so that I can visit more often.

Saphy

You've been missed Saphy but not forgotten. Besides special prayer requests I pray daily for my Praise family. Know you are included. God Bless you.

Hey Thom...

I was born Catholic, born-again Southern Baptist, and now I'm jut a plain old bible thumper...

I have to say that I may have been the "lucky" one, but each of the Baptist churches that I have been affiliated with were the sweetest, most loving body that I have ever met. They did more to reach out to the world and show God's love than I could ever imagine.

I know there are hurtful churches. Some of the experiences I have heard about are just plain wrong. It's people that give Christianity a bad name, and Jesus usually takes the wrap.

One thing is for sure Thom, had it been me, or any of the folks that I have had the good fortune to stand next to in worship, we would have been loving all over you.

I'm sorry for the pain you must have felt...

Thanks Embie. Pretty much now my pain is for my family and those other poor folks. Glad I'm not one of them. Your Baptist experience is the one I'm most familiar with. Baptists I know were horrified by what happened that day. Many of the ways of my nieces church are completely foreign to them. They said it sounded more like a cult using the Baptist name than a real Baptist congregation.

Actually, that's a fear my family has had for quite a while. They just keep becoming more isolated all the time. Now with the move coming up to Florida they'll all but cease to exist. All we can do is give it to God.

I just saw this and wanted to share if it will help any. my husband was born into a very religious family and was always drawn to faith, then he served in the gulf war and went thru some personal changes and converted to the religion he is now. he was moved by the church in europe. well, now we are here in the today and we are being tackled by his parents regarding faith. because we have been preoccupied with moving and jobs and chilren, faith has been there with us, but not an overwhelming force. our practice of our orgainized region is sparse to say the least. we recently got "the talk" from his mother that john (my husband) wasnt "litening to the lord" and wasnt "doing what is really planed for him" etc etc. and also that if our organized faith doesnt have a tight hold on us, then we were in the wrong one. so basically, we were on the wrong path. this infuriated my husband because in almost every way every day he does in both spoken word and actions what he believes christ would have done. he is living the faith rather than practicing it .. . make sense ? so, what i say to all this is LIVE the faith, not Practice it .... hang in there, your family will come around, or i pray they do. consider it a stage, and possibly they will see what is really important and where love lives.

Thanks angel. Mama doesn't always know best but always cares. Let it roll off.

Let's not get started on Mama's.

oh goodness, could i write a book on that !