Is it a general Christain concensus of opinion that the Catholic Church is thought to be the Church of Satan? I was searching through posts and I believe somewhere I also saw a reference to the church being the whore of the world or something to that effect.

I so hate that about the "world". It grieves my spirit when I read those things. In all facets of "religion" you will have extremists that believe they know all there is to know about who is "chosen" and who isn't.

There are many people Thom, that believe as you have written, but I would love to hope that there are just as many that don't.

I was raised Catholic. My folks are still practicing Catholics who have accepted Christ as their personal Savior. I know many Catholics that are born again.

Some in the world can't differentiate culture and nationality and heredity from doctrine and tenants. When I left the Catholic church my mother took it as an insult to her heritage. (Italian through and through). She loves Jesus, but her culture and heredity have taught her to love Mary and the Pope. In reality, we ALL should love Mary and the Pope. God chose Mary above all women to birth Jesus because He knew her love and obedience towards Him. I'm not so sure if an angel came to me and told me of God's plan that I wouldn't somehow question that...

People believe that Catholicism revolves around works for salvation. (sacrements, confession, communion and penance). Some believe that they embrace man-made rules and call them biblical, (or sinful if not followed to the letter).
The media and recent atrocities within the Catholic church doesn't help things though. I desperately ache for those priests that are earnestly serving the Lord because their names have been grouped together with a few lost souls.

But there are also circumstances in which the Catholic church has kinda "shot itself in the foot" so to speak. I have heard folks say that they see wealthy churches, housing priests with cadillacs, ministering to the hopelessly poor and can't help but call them sellouts. Then you have saints losing their sainthood. And rules differing from church to church

It is all so overwhelming to me sometimes, that I have to just step back and turn it over to Jesus.
I think we are going to be quite surprised by who we stand next to in Heaven. I'm not about to reject any of them here on Earth.

Thank you for your reply Embie. I sort of knew that other denominations weren't exactly accepting of Catholicism. In recent months I've gotten more of an idea about the issue. It's really been sort of shocking to me. I had no idea about the depth and breadth of this hatred.

In the neighborhood I grew up in I and my brother were really about the only kids that were Catholic. Never in the eighteen years I lived at home and had known these kids and their parents did I ever get any inkling of this sort of thing.

Actually until quite recently I've gone through my whole life in ignorant bliss I guess. The people of this site know where I am about organized religion for myself. Still, even no longer being a practicing Catholic or even thinking of myself as Catholic my heart has been all but ripped out.

I just can't believe any Christian could harbor, believe and perpetuate that kind of hatred. I always thought hatred was not a Christian quality.

As I aged I did learn things about the Catholic church I never knew as a kid and young adult. They were things that were terribly unsettling and in my twenties gave me pause and made me start wondering whether I wanted to continue being a member of the church.

I've always believed God is great and all there is in goodnes and love and caring for our fellow men. For quite sometime I've also been torn about my fellow man. It's the human factor in all that is religious and organized that makes me not want to be counted in. That's no secret to anybody here. I think/hope that I've been supportive accepting and loving to those who it works for and have a different kind of faith than I practice.

The recent print about the Catholic church has really knocked the wind out of my sails. Becuase of a post or a thread in the past I had asked a member tongue in cheek never believing the answer I got was possible. I asked if the nuns and priests of the church were servants of Satan. I don't remember nor will I search out the reply but essentially it was in the affirmative. Frankly I thought the answer was also tongue in cheek. Now I realize they meant it and believe and obviously preach it. Wow.

All through my youth I had the honor and priveledge both because of being an altar boy and student to work with many nuns and priests. I suppose they were the reason I was also always in ignorant bliss about the vengeful God. I mean I knew that God and even Angels were nobody to mess with but then I always felt good they were with me and loving me. It was their devotion, piousness, kindness and reverence that made me think I wanted to be a priest. Y'all know that didn't work out. All I know is, if not for those wonderful people and the devout Catholics in my family and their faith and love of God, with some of the choices I've made in life, sticking with God may not have been one of them.

I've expressed in the past that I belive that all good people who accept Jesus as their Savior and probably even people who may never have heard his name or him being a part of their teachings regardless of faith/denomination/religion have probably an equal chance of getting to heaven. I'm not sure I beleive that anymore. I'm not sure I will ever again trust anyone who says they are a Christian. I used to think just being one was at least a starting place for trust.

I can't question God but I'm liking this free will thing less all the time.

UKC, I hope you're not referring to the Mormon church when you speak of people that hate the Catholic church, or call it the church of Satan, because we don't (the phrase you used, "the whore of all the earth," comes from the Book of Mormon, but it is not used in reference to the Catholic Church - Joel explained this in a recent post in the Mormon thread). I agree with you that hatred is not a Christian quality - it even says in the Bible that anyone who professes to love Christ but loves not his brother (which I think has reference your fellow man, not just a biological brother - everyone) is a liar.

To be honest, if someone professes to be religious, of any religion at all (except maybe Satanism or something), I'd say that's a good start, because I believe there is truth and goodness is every religion (including Catholics, and unconventionals ). No, I don't believe the Catholic Church has 100% truth, but I don't believe that of any other religion except my own, and that doesn't mean I hate them. If they are good, practicing members of their faith then good for them, I'll bet they're good people. In fact, the best man I personally know, my ward's Young Men's President, went to a private Catholic high school in Ohio (he was Mormon at that point, and still is), because it was better than public schools.

I don't know quite what to make of your post. Again, I agree that people should not go around hating a specific church, but I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that a lot of Christians do. Maybe I just haven't read the posts you're talking about. If you think that was what Joel was saying you misunderstood him, or caught him in a moment when he spoke too hastily or something, because I know he doesn't mean anything like what you are saying. What he did say was that the Catholic church in more ancient times was not the most reliable church in the world, and quite frankly, he's right. I don't think that's a very debatable point. But that doesn't mean that the church is still like it used to be, and that the people who are in it and run it now aren't doing their best to do good, and are worthy of being hated. I personally don't recall anyone ever saying that they hate Catholics or that the Catholic Church as a whole is evil, anywhere (school, church, internet - never seen it, maybe I'm just blind). So perhaps you're seeing things that I'm not, but I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Please enlighten me.

You get upset because people call nuns and priests servants of Satan (not that I'm agreeing with that statement), but you yourself don't agree with any organized religion at all because you say that all men have agendas. Is that not in effect calling organized religion servants of Satan? It's one thing to not agree with organized religion because you believe they are misguided people trying their best, and quite another to say that they have their own selfish agendas in trying to lead a religion, which you have said yourself you believe. That to me seems just as bad as calling nuns and priests servants of Satan, because you're saying that the leaders of my church (and every other church) are intentionally leading me in the wrong direction. Now, you can say someone is a servant of Satan and still love them, so I'm not saying that you hate all other religions. I'm just saying that you might want to think about it a bit before getting upset at that remark, because it doesn't look like you're far from it (to me anyway - feel free to correct me if I misunderstand your beliefs).

You also said recently on the Mormon thread that anyone who had posted on that thread had an agenda - that includes yourself. And I'm curious - what's mine?

I don't understand how you can say something is a part of the teachings in the book of Mormon and then say we don't believe that. The way I redd it is there are two Churches. The Lamb of God is the Lds Church and the Church of Satan is the Catholic church and any off shoots of it. That information came from the Book of Mormon. It wasn't from a member of this site so is that what makes it not so? If so, why is it part of the teachings regardless of who provides the information?

No I did not misunderstand Joel. His open hatred of the Church and of nuns and priest has been very clear. If anything, I guess I just didn't believe that. I can't even believe that after directly asking him if that makes nins and priests servants of satan and him saying that yes he did I still didn't get/believe it.

No, I do not see organized religion as a servant of satan. Frankly other than as you pointed out other than satanists, if you can call that a religion since I believe religion to be God or at the very least about God how could I possibly view organized religion as a servant to satan. Do I believe there may be servants of satan in any religion, possibly. There are good and bad people everywhere but that has nothing to do with the decision I made for myself.

About agendas. Mine is to say I think even a person who doesn't belong to a "church" can be as good a Christian as people who do. Since much or what has been being posted for a while now was not an issue when I first found PC in my opinion the agenda of all that are involved in that discussion is to prove that their way of believing and what they believe is the true way. Agendas aren't always bad things good can be an aenda too so please don't ever think I think that way. I haven't perhaps made that clear but I do not think every agenda is bad or conspiritorial. In direct answer to what your agenda probably is, in my mind it's the same as the others. You would like everbody to believe as you do. I suppose you probably wouldn't mind a conversion or two. As the others you want to defend your church. Do I see those things ad a bad agenda? No. I just wondered would any or all of those posts have happened without a person speaking a belief about their own way of believing. On the other hand would all of this have happened if nobody responded to that. Don't remember if I spoke to this earlier. I'm not close to hating any rligion. I do admit, since there is but one God from very young I've always wondered why there are so many religions. I understand about Judaism., Islam, Buddhist and the others. When it comes to Christianity from very young on, I just didn't get all of them that exist since the common bond is God and Christian.

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I don't understand how you can say something is a part of the teachings in the book of Mormon and then say we don't believe that. The way I redd it is there are two Churches. The Lamb of God is the Lds Church and the Church of Satan is the Catholic church and any off shoots of it. That information came from the Book of Mormon. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is not true. What the Book of Mormon says is that there are two churches, the church of God and the church of the devil. It does not say anywhere that the church of God is the LDS church and the church of the devil is the Catholic church. You pulled that out yourself. I'm going to copy part of a post by Joel here relating to that topic.

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As far as the two churches spoken of in 1 Nephi 14 are concerned. There was a leader (Bruce R. McKonkie) in the church who taught that this was speaking of actual churches. His opinion was that the Church of the Lamb of God was the LDS church and the Church of the Devil was the Catholic church primarily and all other churches that have spawned therefrom - he was corrected by the prophet and recanted all that he said. We believe and the most widely accepted application of that verse in the church today is that these verses are referring to are two churches that consist vaguely as groups of people. The Church of the Lamb of God could be described as the pure in heart, those who earnestly seek after Jesus and strive to live as he would have them live. The church of the devil would consist of all those people who don't believe in Jesus and actively work against his purposes. There are many Mormons on both sides of the fence, just as I'm sure you'll agree that there are many "supposed" Christians on both sides of the fence.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As far as my agenda - I'd be pretty naive if I thought I'd "get a conversion or two" out of this. Conversion does not come from logical arguments, it comes from the Spirit. I'm here because I love debate, especially about religion, and perhaps I can dispell some of the many myths that exist about Mormonism and make people less antagonistic towards my church.

Speaking of which, why does everyone hate Mormons so much? Mormons are much more hated than Catholics. There has been more literature written against the Mormon church than any other church in existence, and most of it is perpetuated lies.

I'd like to hop in here cause i am a practicing catholic who has had an up and down time with the church. i think first of all, that making points that try to target the motivation of the church and it's doctrine cant really be done, because i dont think religion or spirituality is all that simple. it isnt as simple as accepting christ as your saviour and then you're cool. the catholic church goes way beyond that, and it gets complicated which ilicits misunderstanding from those outside it. the church has changed, but it shouldnt neccessarily do so. the doctrine that has made the church so beautiful to ME is what it refuses to change. the nuns and priests that walk the way of the church do so because they want every aspect of thier lives to reflect the Lord. there are preachers in other religions as well that drive nice cars, live in mansions and dress well, that is not a catholic "thing" at all. although, it can look a lot worse when priests do because they take a vow of poverty.
personally, the church has its bad and good, and i support kris' attitude toward organized religion, because organized religion is made FOR man, by man, spirituality is what is the relationship is all about. living by example can be done without paying tithes. BUUUT i wholeheartedly practice teh faith, go to church and teach the prayesr and teachings within the church to my kids because i think that they should be raised with faith being a staple and just as important as the other things people raise their kids with because it is such a part of the human total person.

anyway, i think that the atitude that many people have toward the church is because they dont undersatnd something. if people would ask why or how come ... more often, then they would shed some light on some things that seem one way and really are another. just ask, it's in ignorance that prejudice is born.

Matt, I'm hoping that I get this right. I don't have the computer skills that you and others here do so I just go up read and come back down and write.

I was out for a while and this site I really am begining to love a lot and posts of the recent days were still very much on my mind. Some of the thoughts I was having follow. Fristly, this thread started as me asking a question. I made a point of implicating nobody or any particular faith. Since you were only the second to reply to my question and mentioned both the Book of Mormon and Joel I spoke to you openly about what I had to say. From almost the first of Mormons becoming a topic of discussion foolishly I've actually light handedly stepped up for the Mormons. I went to the mens room and did a post thinking that a person might be being unfairly ganged up on. I suggested giving them a chance. I should have minded my own business and just let it be like many mambers here have. Silly me, I felt it my Christian obligation to step in. That won't be happening again. Not about the Mormon thread or any other. Secondly, since it's my thread and I asked the question I can't believe I was stupid enough to let it turn into me answering questions and explaining myself. You're very good, I'm sure you'll be an asset to the faith. If you choose to start another thread, if you have questions for me and if the spirit moves me I'll reply. I'm done answering questions in this one. Finally, again while out and thinking about hatred and such I was going over in my mind things I hate. There are two. Frist is Satan the other is lies. That's just a general FYI for any reader who cares about my hates.

Even if I knew how I wouldn't take my precious time to go backfind quotes and come back here and do the quote reply thing. If any of this actually matters to you I guess you'll have to reread every post in Mormons and evrey post Joel has made to find the things you feel I must have misunderstodd or that someone may have mispoken.

My mistake. I guess in my upset I missed the recanting. However, the fact it was ever said is rather telling anyhow.

I'm done. I'm sorry you feel that way. I was trying to help you see that maybe everyone doesn't hate Catholics, but I guess it didn't work, and I got a bit carried away in the process. If you look at my original post, every bit of it was written to that end, except the last two lines, which were a sidenote I asked because I was curious (the whole bit about servants of Satan was only to show that even if the statement was meant, it didn't mean he hated Catholics). I mentioned the Book of Mormon and Joel because it looked to me like that was what you were talking about (because you did implicate someone when you mentioned specific instances of what you said was hatred against Catholics), and it looks like I was right. I attempted to defend points that you brought up - you mentioned "the whore of the world" and the servants of Satan bit, I knew where they were from.

My second post was only answering one part of your post correcting a mistake you had made, except continuing the sidenote. You looked more upset than you were before, so it didn't look like my attempt worked and I didn't want to make it worse, so I just corrected an error and stopped. Except then I talked about the sidenote I had asked about agendas, and I just clarified what my opinion of my "agenda" was. The way I ended it gave me an idea, so I asked a question that was intended again to show that people don't hate Catholics, but I got a bit carried away and it probably didn't need to be said. So I'm sorry I asked that question.

I'm sorry that I made you so upset. That was not my intention. I'll stop replying to your thread.

okay, well cool, apologies all around .... we can still talk within this thread, that is the point of all these threads, to open topic on topics that are close to our hearts and emotions.

i dont think the catholic church is of satan i just think its boring....and the priests that molest lil kids dont help its reputation either...

to late to edit but.....when i said boring i meant how like you go in there and they all reacite the same thing to the priest and then the priest says sumthing back its almost like its all scripted and that just seemed kinda ruttish and same old same old to me....and there has never been a move of spirit or jumping and shouting in any catholic curch ive been too....but they can cook sum good ole cajun food....well at least my catholic aunt and sister in law can

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> originally posted by UKC:
I just can't believe any Christian could harbor, believe and perpetuate that kind of hatred. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">who are you talking about exactly ukc i dont think i quite caught it...but....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> originally posted by angelsarems:
i support kris' attitude toward organized religion, because organized religion is made FOR man, by man, spirituality is what is the relationship is all about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thats exactly what i was trying to say in my post above....catholic churches seemed to have orginized services it wont last any longer and it wont be any shorter...at least it seems orinized to me ... what was yalls defenition of orginized ? and there just doesnt seem to be any spiritual movement in there services

Juss, it was a general statement(about a specific situation). It was about my original post question. I was corrected about my mistake in reading a post or two. The rest of the posts in this tread should clear it up for you.

To defend a bit those denominations who have more 'conservative' or ceremonial services - people attend those mainly because of the ceremonial aspects of the service. They can be just as fervently strong in their faith as any other Christian, but prefer the percieved holiness and sanctity of the service. At the other extreme, some people prefer the emotionality of a more 'active' service.

Both sets of people and everything in between have their strong in faith Christians, and both also have their people who appear to go straight from church to every means of sinning possible and back again on the next weekend. It has very little to do with the structure of the service itself, everything to do with their heart and the relationship between them and their Saviour.

Matthew, I think the observation concerning the mormon church and the church of satan is that the mormons believe themselves to be the 'one true church'. The scripture mentioned doesn't seem to allow for other churches outside the mormon faith to be a part of the 'one true church', which, by elimination would seem to mean the rest of us are of the church of satan.

Allen, I'll answer your post in the Mormon thread, since it is predominantly dealing with Mormonism. I think my quote from Joel's post basically answers that question, but I'll try to clarify it a little bit over in the other thread.

Hi lemme jump in a day late and a dollar short! ok ..several dollars short...

I am a fundamantalist and I think that I swing probably farther to the right than most of the folks here. So that being the seine you can guage my reply.


I do not thing that the Catholic Church is of satan, nor have I heard any respectable source teach that. The INDIVIDUALS that I have heard mention it the church like that are reactionary flakes that need a cause and the RC Church seems to be the "cause du Jour" for them. Now that said there have been many atrocities perpetrated and or covered up by Rome. (Inquisition, molestations, Pay for Forgiveness (see M. Luthor's 99 Thesis) and many more over the ages) Now those things were very wrong as were the people tied to them. But that doesn't speak to doctrine.

The R.C. Church has several points of doctrine that I WHOLLY disagree with. ie patron saints, praying to saints INSTEAD of directly to God. Forgiveness from the preist vs the one you sinned against or God. And minor issues like vicarious posthumous salvations and such. Many people talk about them having a works based salvation doctrine, which out of all of them would be the biggest no-no, but that still doee not make them out to be satanists.

You are correct that NO PERSON professing an indwelling of the Holy Spirit should hate another let alone a Christ based church even if flawed. It is that Christians responsibility to love and to instruct.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 Corinthians 13


1If I speak in the tongues[1] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[2] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

As a second ans seperate note I was raised in the Episcopal Church which is very similar to the RC services. (no latin and no saints and you got it) While I LOVE the fundamentalist churches and the fire that is in their worship (which I beleive is the way it should be ) The new churches ain't got NOTHING on the hushed reverence of the old denominational churhces. They preserve the pagentry of the ceremonies that God handed out in Leviticus. They truly understand this

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Psalm 33

6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea into jars [1] ;
he puts the deep into storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD ;
let all the people of the world revere him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

You forgot Psalm 46:10 - "Be still and know that I am God."

Just for the record, since people are talking about different types of church services, Mormon services are kind of ceremonial and kind of not. There is a ceremony performed every week (we call it the sacrament, you probably call it communion) that takes 15 minutes or so, but after that we have people from the ward get up and speak for about 10 minutes each (different people every week - there's no pastor that always gives a sermon). There's no jumping or shouting or loud music (we do sing 3 hymns during the service, different ones picked each week). In fact recently they started having two little kids go to the front each week before the service starts and hold up a sign that says "reverence." So yeah, I agree with Steve in that I much prefer "hushed reverence" to the new loud guitar and drums and jumping and shouting stuff. I've been to a few of the newer services when I was visiting my friend's church, and I didn't like it very much.

Oh, I forgot to mention the two hours of Sunday school classes after the one hour main service, but that's ok, it's not really important.

AH HA i just read allens post and ceremonial was the word i was looking for