so you can't tell me what to do!

Those are the words my 7 year old daughter spoke to me after she and her brother had a disagreement last night. I was trying to explain to her that it was very rude of her to snatch the phone from her brother's ear.

OK, so I knew that they would probably come one day, I guess I had not prepared myself for them yet. Hurt, anguish, grief and anger all tied up in a knot in my stomach and me not knowing what to say or do.

If I feel this way how does she feel? What's going on inside of her with her emotions and feelings? How do I teach her that while anger is a valid emotion it needs to be expressed in respectful ways?

As a father I have to take into consideration that she too is hurting, confused and angry. That she too is learning how to deal with all of this. And even though they are just words, they hurt...Oh they hurt!

Since I had to take our son's CD player to him I politely told her good bye and headed over to their house. Our youngest daughter did greet me at the door and I asked if she had told Mom what she said to me. She began to cry. I repeated her words to my former and we both agreed that it was inproper for her to talk to Daddy like that. Since she was already on restriction for "mouthing off" (Mom's words) to Mom over the weekend she was sent to bed early.

But...here is where the former and I disagree. A lot of this mouthing off (in my opinion) is due to the circumstances in her life, no fault of her own. I try to take that into consideration as I listen to her and also in the adminstration of discipline if necessary. A lot of times she just needs someone to listen to her. My former on the other hand immediately puts her on restriction for 2 days.

In all honesty, it is not often that she acts this way when she is with me. But at home it seems that she is always on restriction. Time spent together? I checked my calanders the other day and even though my former has full custody we actually average about 50/50 as far as overnight time together.

So....I need and suggestions on how to deal with this. I have suggested counseling for the little one but that suggestion seems to be ignored. "They are doing fine" is my formers words. Any ideas bright people? I can assure you that this is something my parents never taught me to deal with so it's a day by day thing.

TH, I'm so very sorry for your pain and worry. My suggestion would be to at the very least consult a child psychologist.

Beyond that suggestion as usual, I do have some thoughts. They are not doing fine no matter waht she says/thinks. If adults have a tough time dealing with these things despite their many more years of experiences and learning just imagine what the kids are all going through. Probably grabbing the phone from her brother was just more acting out because of the situation. I'm glad you allow her to be and display anger at this time. To make her stuff it would be far worse. I also have a great appreciation for your telling her it can be done properly. But, and there usually is one, often it's very hard for adults to display anger,resentment,fright and other emotions related to circumstances like this. I don't know how much is fair to expect of such a youg one. With what we've been privvy to about her mother, it concerns me that she may be using the childs plight as a way to just not have to deal with it or her.

I admire your faith and strength in this matter. I know you turn to God for all things. I don't think he should be left out this either. But, I also believe action is necessary and soon. Pray that God direct the two of you to the best person to help your daughter but don't waste time getting her there. Pray that God helps her to get some comfort for a horribly troubling circumstnace she has no control over. Pray that soon, all begin to deal with all of this the best they possibly can and she may already be doing that. Pray sh not be punished for things that aren't her fault. Pray that her mother becomes more loving and nurturing. In the mean time before the praying begins to work get her some professional help. Only a profession is equipped and removed enough from the situation to help the kids. You notice I'm including all of them. I suspect in time this sort of behavior in some form will surface with all of them. It's sort of the old, an ounce of prevention...

You'll all be in my prayers and of course I wish all of you well in this time of crisis.

Sorry to be on my soapbox but I needed to come back.

Children, whether they ever express it in words or not usually blame themselves for their parents failed marriage. If I was smarte, if I was nicer, if I was... Iif I did... The last thing these kids need is to be punished becuase they are scared and angry. In fact the anger probably comes from fear. Life as they've only and alwys known it no longer exists. They'll bounce back and forth between which parent they are angry with. At their young ages even trying to understand this all to the best of their abilities they are bound to feel feelings of betrayal and abandonment. In different ways from each of their parents. As an adult you have a problem with this situation, just what do you and she think the kids are experiencing. The little one may be first having even less coping skills than the others. Chances are she won't be the last even if it takes years in the others. This is a ticking time bomb and action needs to be taken while waiting for prayers to be answered.

Again I apologize. I know it's not really any of my business even though you asked for input. I've lived this as a child . I didn't understand it all untill 3-4 decades later. In my case tho, it wasn't divorce it was living in a home where there should have been a divorce. Living in chaos has the same fallout that divorce may bring.

If the two of you don't want a child that becomes more angry and depressed day by day, seeking professional help is the only answer. If results don't surface in a fair amount of time or if the child has issues with the professional seek a new one. In my first post I said psychologist. My reason for this is because they seem to have more success treating and changing the problem. Using medication only after seeing that psychotherapy isn' enough. Often, since psychiatrists are M.D.'s
they tend to treat with meds since they can write prescriptions. Medication just masks the problem so it loks like it's alright. Therapy is what gives the tools to make change. Of course prayers still going up and I'll try not to but in again.

One last thought. The divorce was all about the two of you. This is all about the kids.

I haven't been there... but do you think this could be asuaged tremendously with more communication from TH to the daughter? Not sure what your age was at the time UKC, but at 7 do you think she's really internalizing it that much?

Maybe I am underselling it a bit, but I think that at least in the meantime TH, you could sit down with her and discuss it. I'm really not sure a stranger, even a well-trained stranger, could do as much good as her very own dad at this point.

But in all you want. It is answers that I am looking for and the best way for me to also help her.

WE did have a talk tonight and she is quite aware of her actions and the wrongness in them. As she explains it.

"Daddy, I know that you've told me to recongnise my anger and to call you before I scream at Mom or to just take a deep breath and count. I just can't do that at times. I just get so mad."

For a 7 year old she seems to understand but as you said UKC if I as an adult struggle with this how much harder is it for her to cope. And yes...she has tried hard to be the perfect child, at least for me. Keeps her room cleaned, beds made up and all her stuff put away. Tonight she wanted me to see her room after she cleaned it since it was a "pig pen". There was one thing out of place in there and she calls it a pig pen. Needless to say she had it spotless. We said prayers at bedtime and I just lay there and held her for an hour as she slept.

I did call my counselor today and he has agreed to change my next appointment to this Friday and see her also. He is a very kind and gentle person so they might do well together. If not, then there are several others in his office, all PHD's that would take her in if necessary.

And she is showing other signs of depression as well. Sleeping from 12 to 15 hours at times, restlessness, unsteady eating habits and some kind of rash on her arms that she ends up picking at and they turn into a bloody and scabby mess. The only other time I saw something like that was with my sister and it ended up being stress and internalized anger.

So...even though my former says "she is doing fine" I will have her with me Friday morning and at the doctor's office that afternoon.

But...I appreicate the prayers and the suggestions. Some are already in place. Thanks

never been there either Brother but i will honestly pray for you cuz i know it must be hard

Praying for you all too TH!!!

Personally, I think we all underestimate children's ability to adjust and adapt to new situations. Granted, divorce is fairly jarring at any age.

However, I think a person is never too young to learn that you respect and honor your parents, never too young to learn to handle their temper, never too young to learn to take responsibilty for their own actions.

That being said, I also have long thought that children are far better at manipulating divorce to their advantage than we are as adults. I would be careful not to dismiss too much of her actions as yours and your former's fault.

Be careful to maintain a sense of discipline and authority from both you and your former spouse. I hate to say it, but in some ways, I admire your former spouse's no tolerance approach to this kind of acting out.

It will be more to your daughters advantage to teach her that adversity doesn't allow her to get away with things she otherwise would not be allowed to do.

To Allens question. I certainly can't speak for this child. In reference to myself and others I've talked with, yes, she may well be internalizing it that much. Kids are like sponges soaking everything up. They certainly may not assimilate and process information the way they will later in life but they know something really bad is going on. In my particualr case, I'm not going to bore everyone with my background again but when mom and I were reconciling our past she was absolutely blown away bt incidents I spoke about and ev3en some verbatum dialogues that left no room for doubt about the effect of things from the past. I can't put an exact age on the situations but many go back as far as 5or6 to no more than nine years old. By ten I started praying they would divorce. My reasoning even then was I might stand a chance with one but was never going to make it to the age one had to be to get away from it. Some people I've talked to have very similar memories and can now finally deal with them withan adult mentality.
As you know I later on acted out with drink drugs and other negative self medicating behaviors. My brother on the other hand just shut down and blocked out. It made him emotionally unavailable to his wife and children for many years. He/they are doing much better now. An upside to it, his kids learned from him what not to do with their kids. I just wish they'd all stop the yelling though. It's as damaging as physical abuse.

As for TH asuaging matters, IMHO probably not. Children will tell parents what they want to hear. Inside they are still blaming themslef. There's almost an automatic sense of the parents suffering and pain so kids don't want to add to it loving their parents. But it doesn't change what they feel and think. They'll open up more and more honestly to someone they don't know or care about for the most part. Particularly since that person is trained to not even accidentally put any blame or responsibility back on the child. In know TH would only have the best of intentions, any parent would, bottom line is children don't come with instruction books and most parents are not well enough equipped to HELP their child in this situation. From all of his posts, he already is doing all he can and a great job of it too. Sometimes anyones best just isn't enough depending on a situation. Again, just MHO.

TH, I posted to Allens question before reading your post. You're a wonderful man and parent. You're doing a great job. I can't possibly express my admiration for you in all of this. May God bless you all.

Joel, . There's a time and place for you brand of loving a child. I pitty the child whose parent thinks it's all the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I hate to say it, but in some ways, I admire your former spouse's no tolerance approach to this kind of acting out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is nothing wrong with a no tolerance approach. But IMO in this case it is not a no tolerance approach but a no discussion approach.

I do want the best for my children, always have. I am sure that my former wants the same for them also. But, not once has she asked the children how they are doing, how this has affected or impacted them. Why? Because she was taught as a child that you DO NOT under any circumstances express anger. ANGER is wrong. And any discussion that revolves around our divorce is a source of anger for her.

So in return our children are now learning that same concept. As of yet the children have not attempted to manipulate either of us for their benefit. If it is being done in this case then I would assume the motive could be, "if I can get Mommy and Daddy to come together to take care of me, discpline me then just maybe they will get back together."

So that takes us back to stage one. What is the ROOT cause of her outburst, her mouthing off? When we discover and deal with the root cause then we can find a solution, any thing other than that is just a band-aid fix.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I would be careful not to dismiss too much of her actions as yours and your former's fault. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Her actions, both good and bad are a direct result of our actions toward her and for her. Dismiss them? I would be foolish to think that her actions came from anywhere else.

Or maybe she's just being a child? My parents didn't divorce but I can remember my brothers, sisters and I having those very same types of 'you're not the boss of me' arguments. Kids will argue/fuss/ and fight and they know exactly which knife cuts the deepest when they want to use them.

I think therapy has it uses, and it may be needed here, but I also think we can play into the idea that the 'world is coming to an end' when something doesn't go their way. It's a sign of immaturity, which in this case, is normal for a 7 year old.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

opps, just re-read the first post and realized she was telling you that, and not her brother...

well... that's different.

nevermind

Discipline without explanation and discussion is lousy parenting.

Don't misunderstand me. I came from a home where there was no tolerance for misbehavior, but never once was I left in the dark as to why my behavior was unacceptable or what my other alternatives, choices, or actions should have been.

I only say what I say, because I've seen many children of divorce who are terribly ill-mannered and ill-equipped to deal as a normal and functioning member of society. This can be for several and varied reasons including spoiling or coddling from both parents to make up for the divorce or just plain emotional trauma from the divorce. It would be folly to pin all of a child's shortcomings on the divorce alone.

Good parenting after a divorce is based on the same principles and techniques as good parenting before a divorce.

The divorce alone is not the sole reason for her shortcomings. Those stem from both the good and bad parenting that we exposed her to.

On the positive side, these outbursts rarely happen at my house, she has managed straight A's for the entire school year. She was only disciplined 2 times during the school year because of her "mouth" and she has a very strict teacher. She was the top reader for her class in both accelerated reading points and grade level, finished the year reading at a 3rd grade level (she just finished 1st grade) which I think is pretty good for a child who spent 2 years in speech therapy prior to starting school. I have stayed in close contact with her teacher during the year and this type of behaviour is rarely demonstrated at school, at Church or other places. It mostly occurs at her home in discussions with her Mom.

So....if one was looking for a root cause of these outbursts which direction would one take?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good parenting after a divorce is based on the same principles and techniques as good parenting before a divorce. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">just as bad parenting after a divorce is based on the same principles an techniques as bad parenting before a divorce, and yes, I will raise my and confess that I was guilty of bad parenting techniques. I'm still trying to find the owners manual for each of them

How are things going TH?

A lot better for me! Somewhat better for the little one.

Therapist believes that it would be good for our youngest daughter to start attending some of my sessions, if neccessary a few of her own. He described it as situational anxiety or depression. And at 7 she does not have the emotional maturity to cope with the changes in her life.

Overall he thinks that she is doing well but because of all the changes and the sudden appearance of this new man in Mom's life it keeps her on the edge of her ability to cope.

Thanks for the update... Is she attending and are you going to a Christian-based therapist?