</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">John 14
6"I am the way, the truth, and the life!" Jesus answered. "Without me, no one can go to the Father.
which means by the blood of Jesus we are accepted and will intered into the kingdom of heaven...granted we obey him ....

by the blood of Jesus not the water of Jesus </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't agree more.

I would only add that part of obeying him is being baptized and I would refer you to John 3:5 as well for enlightenment on this subject.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel can you find it in the Bible where it gives us a person who was saved ...followed Jesus and his teachings and went to hell because he wasnt baptised </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Scout can you find it in the Bible where it gives us a person who was saved ...followed Jesus and his teachings and didn't go to hell because he wasn't baptized?

The answer to both questions is no. It's an impossible conundrum. All we can possibly learn from the Bible is what Jesus' opinion on the subject is. That's it, because the Bible doesn't cover what happens to folks in the afterlife.

This notion that baptism is a "nice idea" and "okay if you get around to it," is really perplexing. I mean, why bother at all if it's merely symbolic and has no other purpose. Has God created or instituted anything that is without purpose? It certainly sound like y'all consider this optional. If I'm as well off with or without baptism why does God see fit to unneccessarily increase so many churches' water bills merely to do something that's sorta nice and not absolutely essential - so essential that Jesus himself submitted to it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Originally posted by Joel33:
I mean what's the deal - read the topic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">first off like ne20 said you need to lower your cyber adreniline...i dont tolerate people talking to me like that...Im United States Marine...i put up with very little...from rude people..
i said it plain as day Joel , baptism is basically a religious sacrament marked by the symbolic use of water and resulting in admission of the recipient into the community of Christians.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Originally posted by Joel33:
by Christian standards, it's okay to rag on Mormons. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ragging on sum one and you being on a christian site and pushing your beliefs and then getting out of control upset because they dont believe the same thing....are two different things Joel

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
[QUOTE]Scout can you find it in the Bible where it gives us a person who was saved ...followed Jesus and his teachings and didn't go to hell because he wasn't baptized?

The answer to both questions is no. It's an impossible conundrum. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*sigh* simple minds....

Luke--40But the other criminal told the first one off, "Don't you fear God? Aren't you getting the same punishment as this man? 41We got what was coming to us, but he didn't do anything wrong." 42Then he said to Jesus, "Remember me when you come into power!"
43Jesus replied, "I promise that today you will be with me in paradise."
so the answer to your question is yes he was never baptised yet Jesus tells him he will be with him in Paradise.... Find harder questions Joel...these just occupy time

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> originally posted by Joel33:
As for Allen, he's had time to post elsewhere. Really I'm bothered because he done this countless times over in that thread - falsely accused me or someone of something, when the accusation is proven false he drops it and never comments on it again, until he sees an opportunity to falsely accuse again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you dont see any reason to appologize for this?

and Joel as for you remark about John 3:5...just so you dont think im ignoring you or anything....but i know your going to rant and rave Joel but any way ....when a women gives birth there is something called water birth Joel...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">John 3
5Jesus answered:
I tell you for certain that before you can get into God's kingdom, you must be born not only by water, but by the Spirit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">he is not talking about being baptised with water Joel ...he is talking about your physical birth....and i have asked many pastors just now on the phone even....and they all agree with me...most of whom i dont even know.... but like i said Im sure you wont take that as an answer...but it clearly says you must be born of water and spirit....not baptised of water and spirit...two totally different things

I'm sorry Scout, I thought one of your conditions was that the person in question "followed Jesus and his teachings." The theif on the cross had never in his life followed Jesus' teachings until that moment and perhaps had never even been aware of them. Or there's another option - he was baptized in his youth or there's the whole discussion we already had on this here second one from the top Here's some highlights from over in the Mormon thread </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
As far as needing to be baptized to be saved, I think I made it clear already that it was Jesus who said that to Nicodemus. It's something us crazy Mormons picked up from the Savior's teachings. I mean I know that's just silly that we would have the audacity to believe in and follow what the Savior said, but that's the way we silly Mormons work. Just for review he said it in John 3:5-7 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be aborn again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">so clearly being born again is a two-parter. One without the other is invalid. One must be born of water (baptism) and born of spirit (witness from the Holy Spirit). Otherwise "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. If you disagree, please remember you aren't disagreeing with me, Eric, or the LDS faith, you are disagreeing with your Savior and Redeemer. Since he saved us, I'm pretty sure he's allowed to set the conditions.

Just to provide two witnesses, he says it again in Mark 16:16 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">again two things make a whole and separately they fail.
Matt 3:15 after John said he certainly didn't need to baptize Jesus, Jesus clarified and stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">making it clear that Jesus could not "fulfil all righteousness" without being baptized.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Allen responded with this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Allen:
Arguing concerning the need or not for baptism is one of those things that no-one will ever win. There's just as many if not more scriptures to quote regarding the non-neccessity of baptism as there are for it. People argue this stuff for days, so your theories don't hold a lot of water there

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Acts 16:29-31

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No mention of baptism.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Matthew 19:16-21
The Rich Young Man

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus gave him a laundry-list, no mention of baptism. When the man said he had all that covered and wanted to know what he still lacked, Jesus still didn't mention baptism, He told him what it took to be perfect, but still didn't mention baptism.

Your own quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doesn't say "but whoever does not believe or be baptized will be condemned." Non-belief was the determining factor in condemnation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Luke 11:44-50

Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, faith/belief was the determining factor, no mention of 'you better get baptized too, or it won't stick'.

There's many more where those come from. We put lots of barriers on salvation - on the cross Jesus told the thief he'd see him in paradise because of his belief. Paradise or heaven, he didn't say he would go to hell because he missed one of the required steps. He didn't ask someone to 'baptize for the dead' to get him caught up either
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To which I responded:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My point is that if Jesus said it, it deserves more of an explanation than just simply, "well, other places in the Bible it doesn't say that." I'm not saying baptism is superior to faith, but rather that it is a necessary manifestation of faith. It's not an either/or scenario. It is both. None of the scriptures you quoted precluded the necessity of baptism. It is very possible that each and every person you mentioned was indeed baptized and that the historical record of their baptism was not included in the Bible. If the Bible contradicts itself how is anyone to know which verse to believe and accept and which one to reject? If you can find a verse that definitively states, "you must believe in Jesus and baptism is kind of nice, but not really that important," then and only then can you logically present any argument that refutes what the Savior said in John 3:5. But why would anyone want to refute the Savior?

The same holds true for Baptism for the dead. It was practiced. Paul records if for posterity and is certainly not condemning the practice if you read the verse in context - he's actually using it to prove that there will be a resurrection. It's in there. The burden doesn't lie on me to go any further. If you don't believe it, then discredit Paul. If you don't believe what Peter says about the gospel being preached to them that are dead - discredit Peter. I don't need to defend it because it is in the Bible. I only bring up the verses because they are overlooked because they don't fit nicely with the mainstream interpretation of Christianity. That doesn't excuse the fact that if they are to be rejected a plausible, biblically based reason for rejecting them needs to be offered.

It's like Spock said on Star Trek VI
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you eliminate the impossible whatever remains - however improbable - must be the truth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words if we eliminate everything that is not specifically stated as necessary in the Bible for salvation, we are left with the best definition of how to attain salvation. If a theory of events is the only scenario that fits the facts (or cannot be explained away), then it must follow that said theory of events is the only logical conclusion, no matter how unlikely.

So here's the facts:

Jesus states unequivocally, that you must be baptized and have belief to be saved.

No where else does he or any of his followers refute the necessity of Baptism.

He tells the theif on the cross that he will be saved.

Paul mentions the practice of Baptism for the dead as proof of the resurrection.

Peter states that after Jesus died he went to visit the spirits who were in prison and preach the gospel to those that were dead.

Conclusion from these facts - either the thief had been baptized earlier in life and had fallen away - thereby needing only repentence and faith to again regain the covenant he had once made or there must be a means provided for those who aren't baptized in this life to be baptized later and Jesus was in preaching to the spirits in prison that very day so that they could repent.

Without preaching in the world of spirits and baptism for the dead, how can God and Christianity condemn any and all peoples who will never have a reasonable opportunity of even hearing the name Jesus Christ? Is that loving? Is that merciful? Is that just? To me it seems like salvation within mainstream Christianity is about faith, but first it's about luck -- you have to be lucky to be born in a land and situation where you'll get to hear about Jesus in the first place. If not you're damned. Boy, that would mean the vast majority of the peoples on the earth and the vast majority of all people that have ever lived are going to Hell. Wow, God is Great - he can provide salvation to only a small fraction of his children. Whoo-hoo!! Someone needs to explain adequately to me how God can be a loving God and still condemn about 80% (I'm being generous with that 80% - it's probably more like 90-95%) of his children to damnation by birth. Mormons have an answer - does anyone else?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then the conversation kind of splintered and became harder to follow. But trust me, I've considered the theif on the cross and we simply don't get enough information about him from the Bible to determine whether or not he had ever been baptized.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by New_Era_20:
and Joel as for you remark about John 3:5...just so you dont think im ignoring you or anything....but i know your going to rant and rave Joel but any way ....when a women gives birth there is something called water birth Joel...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">John 3
5Jesus answered:
I tell you for certain that before you can get into God's kingdom, you must be born not only by water, but by the Spirit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">he is not talking about being baptised with water Joel ...he is talking about your physical birth....and i have asked many pastors just now on the phone even....and they all agree with me...most of whom i dont even know.... but like i said Im sure you wont take that as an answer...but it clearly says you must be born of water and spirit....not baptised of water and spirit...two totally different things </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now there is an example of taking a scripture out of context and completely butchering it's meaning. I'd like to take an informal poll. How many people on this site actually believe Jesus was talking about a woman's water breaking when he was speaking to Nicodemus? The only other "water-birth" I'm aware of is a relatively new practice of giving birth while partially submerged in water. Anyone here think that's what Jesus was talking about?

John 3:1-5 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:


2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To recap what happened here, Nicodemus a righteous Pharisee, comes to Jesus at night because he's heard of Jesus and believes in him. Jesus tells him that it is necessary that we are all born again. Nicodemus is confused and asks if he means we are meant to return to our mother's womb. Jesus clarifies and tells him that being born again or born a second time has nothing to do with physical birth, but is a metaphorical birth by water and by the spirit that we must all go through. For centuries, "Born of Water" has been commonly interpreted to mean Baptized. Apparently the preachers you've talked to, NE20, have a bold, highly controversial and radically different interpretation than that accepted by Christianity the world over for the last several hundred years.

Ok lets take this one thing at a time.....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">please remember you aren't disagreeing with me, Eric, or the LDS faith, you are disagreeing with your Savior and Redeemer.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> your just being ludacris....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> One must be born of water (baptism)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now your just adding words...it never says baptism it says born...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">he who does not believe shall be damned...it never says he who does not get baptized and believeth not shall be damed...just he who believeth not....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> 3:11
11I baptize you with water so that you will give up your sins.--Footnotes 3.11 so that you will give up your sins: Or "because you have given up your sins."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the type of baptizing John was doing was a baptism to show that you have given up sin.... it tells us that in he bible...Jesus did it to set the example...not because he needed to...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Matthew 3:15 "For now this is how it should be, because we must do all that God wants us to do." Then John agreed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">my version never says anything about fulfiling righteousness
but any way.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Originally posted by Joel33:
Allen responds with this quote:
Originally posted by Allen:
Arguing concerning the need or not for baptism is one of those things that no-one will ever win. There's just as many if not more scriptures to quote regarding the non-neccessity of baptism as there are for it. People argue this stuff for days, so your theories don't hold a lot of water there </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Allen sounds like a wise man

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">baptism is kind of nice, but not really that important</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">there you go being a clown again no one ever said it wasnt important...infact i encourage it...but you wont Go to hell if you dont do it...If a man gets saved to night and he has sent invitations to his family so they can come witness his baptism and he dies just an hour before baptism...he wont go to hell....if a man accepts christ on his death bed and never had plans to get baptised ...he wont go to hell...

as for the rest of your post i refuse to let you tell me that i disagree with my Lord and Savior because i believe you dont have to be baptised...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Originally posted by Joel33:
One must be born of water (baptism)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Originally Posted by Joel33:
Now there is an example of taking a scripture out of context and completely butchering it's meaning. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you added baptism bro...you butcherd it not me...

what does it mean to you to be born of the spirit?

First things first. . .

If any man have an ear, let him hear.
(Rev 13:9)

I guess I'll speak to all who have posted today. You are attacking each other's character and that will not get you anywhere, from either sife of the board.

Character Assassination, nothing less. We often say to our Brother's "You're not a good Christian", "You're a theif." These statements to NOT correct or edify but only tear down one's character and in the last few post I feel that is what has happened. We are required to holp people accountable for their behaviour but in the process God does not allow us to denigrate their character.

Only God can judge character.

Back to basic psych class, quit using "you" and replace it with "I".

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:5)

There are several interpretations available for this verse. Just a few:

• Water Baptism
• Water understood as a symbol of the Holy Spirit
• Water understood as a symbol of the Word of God
• "born of water" refers to physical birth
• "born of water" refering to John the Baptist's baptism
• Old Testament imagery of "water" and "wind" refering to the work of God

We can argue, debate and call each other foolish names all day and night and still miss the point. Regardless of what the first birth relates to it serves no purpose unless you have been born of the Spirit. We must experience spiritual rebirth!

Simply put, new birth is by The Son, by the cross, by faith.

Baptism is shrouded in controversy and many differences of opinion. Some so strong that people cling with tenacity simply because "that's how I was raised " or "that's what I was taught."

Baptize - bapitzo means to "dunk," "dip," "plunge," "submerge," or "imerse."

There are many who advocate another form of baptism but admit that in it's original form it was in the sense described above.

Why be baptised?

Baptism represents the idea of identification.

Baptise carries the the weight of cleansing and resurrection.

• Cleansing from the sin of the old man
• dying to the old man and being a new man born into life
• sign of commitment to a new Master

Jesus commanded us to be baptised. Following in obedience should be a part of every believers life.

Me?

Baptism is an act of obedience identifying myself with Christ. My belief in Christ comes first, then I am baptised. Is it required for salvation? No. Pauls tells us , "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1Co 1:17)


Sprinkled or christened as a child. I do not believe you have been scriptually baptised. Immersed as an adult with no intention of following Christ, wrong again. Does that mean that Christ does not accept you or loves you less? No! It simply means that as a believer you need to be obedient and be scriptually baptised.

I appreciate your posts, TH. Attacking character never helped anyone, and, if anything, it drives them away from what you are trying to teach them. Nobody wants to listen to someone who is attacking them at the same time they're trying to teach them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Baptise carries the the weight of cleansing and resurrection.

Cleansing from the sin of the old man
dying to the old man and being a new man born into life
sign of commitment to a new Master
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with these points, and they are the very reason I believe that one should be baptized. I think almost the only thing that I didn't agree with TH is whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. I believe that it is, but this has been argued before and it seems to only bring contention to the discussion, and I'd prefer to avoid that.

Baptism is a sign of your commitment to Christ, and in it you make covenants with God. I think the most important one is that you take upon yourself the name of Christ, meaning that in whatever you do you will strive to follow the teachings of Jesus and be an example to all you meet. You certainly need a testimony of Christ before you are baptized, but that does not mean that your testimony will not grow and become stronger after your baptism. In fact, I'd say you're not doing what you should be doing if your testimony is not continually increasing. We should all be trying to have a greater understanding of God's love for us.

I also agree that sprinkling of water is not actually baptism, as TH pointed out. Christ showed by example that baptism is to be done through full imersion in water.

And I agree totally with everything eric said with the exception that it's a requirement for salvation

I've been baptized by water 2-3 times as I grew up (I felt it was the thing for me to do), all because like eric says "it's a sign of my commitment to Christ". I believe my original repentance and acceptance of Christ's sacrifice for my sins and His lordship over me completely qualified me for kinship with Him and everything that goes with that, but I also believe my baptism and other things I do for Him since then are part of the 'faith with works' plan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">your just being ludacris....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm being a rapper? (only kidding of course)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Scout:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">he who does not believe shall be damned...it never says he who does not get baptized and believeth not shall be damed...just he who believeth not....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are correct, baptism without belief is just taking a dip in a pool. However, the relationship between baptism that is identified in this verse is not an either/or relationship. It clearly states that all who want to be saved must be both baptized and believe. Let me put it another way:
A = he who believes
B = baptism
C = salvation
In the above referenced verse Jesus states A+B=C he then adds a condition B&#8800;C. Now I for one believe that God makes sense and is a rational and logical individual. So if the equation is A+B=C and the condition is B&#8800;C then it must also be true that A&#8800;C. To believe otherwise would be to state that God is illogical.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Scout:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Matthew 3:15 "For now this is how it should be, because we must do all that God wants us to do." Then John agreed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">my version never says anything about fulfiling righteousness
but any way.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know what? I like your version better. It's even more clear - Jesus says, "We must do all that God wants us to do." There is no equivocation in the words "We must do all." That means everything, we have to do it. So since Jesus is using this as a means to justify his own baptism, I guess, we must all be baptized, since it's clearly a part of "all that God wants us to do." Wonderful, what translation of the Bible is that? I'm going out right now to get a copy.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">there you go being a clown again </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not a clown, I'm a banker, being a clown would be a far more respectable career track.

Hey TH, if I'm guilty of tearing down or attacking another's character please PM me or point it out specifically here and let me know. I like NE20, but I have called his posts "crap" I guess that's rude, but if you simply make assertions in a debate without any backup it's kind of "crap." I also didn't intend to impune Allen's character, I'm merely pointing out that he consistently accuses me and eric of "using the Book of Mormon to prove our beliefs to Christians." And we consistently point out that we aren't doing that, but rather, we quote the Book of Mormon to illustrate our beliefs and give some background for them. I've answered his accusation by pointing out that it is a misleading tactic and that he's trying to discredit our words by creating a false argument that is easy to knock down - a "straw man" logical fallacy. The point of contention with Allen is that he continues to use this illegitimate method to try and discredit me and the other Mormons around here. As I've said before, it's merely irritating, not evil, not bad, not wicked, just irritating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1Co 1:17)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is taken out of context. when read in context it is clearly not saying that baptism is unnecessary. verses 13,14,15,&16 make it clear that he is speaking to the already baptized some of whom he actually baptized himself, hence he is not sent to baptize. His purpose in this letter is to make sure they are converted to Christ and not merely to Paul and his teachings - because Paul cannot save. Clearly he views baptism to Christ as a part of that conversion.

I know you can argue about this doctrine throughout the eternities, but all that proves is something that I've said elsewhere - the Bible is insufficient to foster a unity of faith. Fortunately, the Bible does tell us what is sufficient to foster a unity of faith in Ephesians 4:11-14 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To achieve a unity of faith, Christ has given us Apostles & Prophets and others within the structure of a formally organized and ordained church. But that's a conversation (as is this one actually) for a completely different thread.

The last words of the Savior recorded by Matthew are these Matthew 28:19-20 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have ccommanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">According to Matthew, this is the last thing the Savior chose to say. he doesn't say "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, and perhaps baptize them..." It's pretty clear he commands us to go and teach (using the imperative form of both of those verbs "Go" & "teach") so why are we so quick to dismiss the possibility that he commands us also to baptize. He seems to include that as an inherent part of the proselyting process.

Lastly, let me just re-iterate, that Mormons have a very well defined, biblically supported doctrine, that allows for those who have not been baptized in this life to recieve baptism by proxy after they have died. So yes, you can die without getting baptized and still get into heaven.

Can we get back to discussing God and his nature now?

seriously this thing could Go on forever and Ive already been beaptised so Im really not worried...so next subject

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Originally posted by Joel33:
Hey TH, if I'm guilty of tearing down or attacking another's character please PM me or point it out specifically here and let me know. I like NE20 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First off let me just say...that that is so sweet ... I never knew you felt that way Joel lol....But yeah TH not to be rude but Joel and I know each other by now and we know the other doesnt mean anthing when the topic gets heated...but your right i guess we could calm it down a notch er two ....er seven ... but that why i dont post in the mormon thread any more...so i will calm down because i like this thread....all the research i have to do be fore i post really helps me learn the bible better....and oh By the way Joel i found my King James Version spirit filled bible and a foot note about John 3:5 says that born of water is hebrew for physical birth....other wise they would have said baptised of water...let the fun begin

I have to recant something I said above, I've done some additional research and found out that there are indeed other interpretation of "Born of Water" aside from Baptism and I think TH summed them up nicely a few posts back.

I think statements, like those made by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not dworthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Illustrate that the words Baptized by the spirit are essentially interchangeable with born of the spirit. I think the same can be said of baptized by Water and born of Water. But I will allow for the fact that people may interpret the phrase in a multitude of different ways. That, however, doesn't mean they're right.

ok okok i have a new topic.....the sabath day is it a sin to work on it....and i mean like work a job....not church work....and why do you feel this way?