Those of you who frequent the Mormon thread could probably see this topic coming a mile a way.

At any rate, I think it is important to know who God is. Let's face it - faith, the driving force in our lives as Christians, must be rooted in God. How can we have faith in an entity that we do not know or cannot define?

So let's see what everyone thinks:

Do you believe in the Nicean Creed? - that God is a conglomerate of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. One being without body, parts or passions?

Do you believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are distinct separate entities?

Is God tangible?

Did God create Good and Evil?
Or
Is God only God because he is Good - those forces (Good and Evil) existing independently of God?

Does God have a Body?

Is God merely an undefinable power?

Is God in essence male or female?

Or none of the above?

Just curious what everyone thinks and looking for a serious topic to discuss.

You sure love stirring the pot for somone who won't be here much over the weekend. LOL

Speaking for myself in order of the questions asked.

Faith is how we have faith.

Yes, I sort of believe in the Nicean Creed. As for body, Ibelive all souls ever are part of the mystical body of Christ/God. That's not a body as we think of bodys. I belive there is one God in three divine persons but not parts as we think of parts. Passion, I sure at least the Jesus part having had a human nature had passion so I guess God does have passion. But then the way we usually think of passion other than Holy Thursday through Easter Sunday isn't what I have in mind when thinking of God. Unless you include him being passionate about wanting evryone of his children with him in heaven for eternity.

I think God is tangible in that I believe I can feel him and hear him speaking to me. Unlike most here, I guess I deal with the trinity just as being God. I know that when I feel and hear him it's the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.

I believe God created everything. That is everything there is in a physical matter. As for good and evil, I think he allows it. We create good and evil. Satan creates evil if we allow it. Of course I believe Gos is good. And yes, I belive good and evil forces exist independantly of God because he allows them to.

I suppose in a sense God has perhaps more than one body. Since Christ and God are the same, sure he has/had a physical body. But grouping the three together to just being God as opposed to the trinity, he has a mystical body composed of evry single soul he ever created. That's why his passion is for all of his children'souls to be with him for eternity.

I wouldn't think of trying to define God. God just is all/everything to me.

Of course God be it his voice, when done on film or other media is male. Jesus is of course male. But I guess when I think of God the answer would be non of the above. God just is. God doesn't need a gender identity. And if one actually absolutely needed to be asigned, I'd say God is both. Since we his children/souls are male and female and I belive we are all a part of Him, then, if there is a gender to God it's male/female.

Did I say too much? Do I make any sort of sense to more conventional Christians? Does anybody think I care what anyone but God thinks?

I'll add more later, but right now I don't have too much time. Just wanted to comment quickly on Unconventional's last line of his post: "Does anybody think I care what anyone but God thinks?"

I absolutely, one hundred percent agree with this statement. At college one of my religion teachers would plug his ears if we tried to give our opinion in response to a question. He forced us to turn to the scriptures and to search them to find out what God has revealed to us. He always told us, "I don't care what you think, and you don't care what I think. Let's find out what God thinks." What God has revealed to his prophets is what should be taken and followed. I personally don't believe too much in philosophizing over religion beyond what the prophets have revealed to us. Maybe I'm just simple-minded, though.

You do make some sense, unconventional, but I'll make my comments later when I have more time.

I believe somewhat similarly to how UKC does... my thoughts are that most of that doesn't matter tho. I just believe. He doesn't ask me to believe in His gender, or in His oneness or trinity, just in His uniqueness as the one and only God and His sacrifice for my sins.


More to come

Waiting here y'all. I wish I could learn to express myself less verbosly than I do. Ya hit the nail on the head Allen. Eric, I think I'd like to take that class.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did I say too much? Do I make any sort of sense to more conventional Christians? Does anybody think I care what anyone but God thinks?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Um, to answer those questions I'd say no, I don't know, and no.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Faith is how we have faith. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess that I have always sought to increase my faith until it is replaced by a sure knowledge - which I suppose would require a more certain definition of who and what God is.

I'm curious, Kris, how you reconcile your unconventionalness with the Bible? Do you not care? I mean it's fine if you don't, I guess I just can't see your interpretation (and by extension Allen's) as being derived from the Bible. I don't mean to be condescending, I'm just trying to find out how you and others with your view on things have come to your perception of God?

Another question:

If Jesus and God are one and the same - how does one get to the point where they don't believe God has a body? That confuses me.

Jesus' triumph was in his resurrection - the reuniting of his body with his spirit - if he's God and has no body now - what does he do with it? Why did he reunite with it if it is of no use to him now?

I know that God's ways are higher and different than our ways and no one knows the mind of God. But I also know that unto the believers - the mysteries of God will be made known.

Abraham had faith- by faith he almost sacrificed his son - because of his faith he was granted sure knowledge from a heavenly visitor and a promise. His faith was made perfect through concrete experience with an angel. Joshua and the Israelites had faith that by walking around the city of Jericho, blowing their horns and everything else described in Joshua - God would knock the city down. Their faith was made perfect through the concrete fulfillment of God's promise and purpose.

In both of these cases their faith was definitive. They believed that if they took action "X" they would recieve evidence of "Y".

Is perhaps the reason so many are drifting away from God because they have no concrete perception of who he is? What I hear in your answer Kris is:

He's Jesus, but not really
He's everyone, but not really
He's got a body or maybe had one
I believe the Nicean Creed but not entirely

In other words, I hear a lot of hedging, perhaps that's part and parcel of being unconventional.

Moses did not hedge when he wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He spoke to God as he would speak to another man. Very interesting. Especially considering if we believe in the Bible - we also must believe that Moses had perhaps more concrete experience with God than anyone other than Enoch and Jesus.

I can agree with you when you say, "Does anybody think I care what anyone but God thinks?" However, the only insight we have into the mind of God is what is written in Bible.

Also, I'm very surprised to find that - generally speaking - so far, people don't seem to think it's important to have a concrete perception of who God is.

Answer to question number one. I guess it started to stem from the fact that until relatively recently Catholics didn't use the bible as part of instruction and religious leterature. As I'm aware, that didn't start until the eighties and still isn't part of the liturgy expept for the Gospel readings. I know, it's the bible. But when young and you're in church and time the Gospel and Epistle somes in the mass those are just words. The source since not made clear doesn't much matter. Personally, until you mentioned it now, I've never thought of reconciling it. I still don't. My personal position is, and it certainly is unconventional, over time I decided for myself that I didn't have much if any use for organized religion of any denomination. Since I hadn't been a Bible person for all of my religious life, other than the reading of the Gospel (which I guess I never took as Gospel) it didn't seem at all necessary to me. I just plain don't trust humans and religion. God gave us the Ten Commandments. I trust that. They basically were the focus of my chilhood religious instruction. As I matured, more and more I wanted nothing to do with the human aspect of religion. I was comfortable with my love of God, accepting Jesus as my redeemer and I had the Ten Commandments.

The final straw I guess was when in further education you learn of all the historical atorcities commited in the "Churches" and "Gods" name it just didn't jive with the loving God I had come to know and the Christ like life I always trtied living. Religion/God good. Religion/humans not so much. I also had very bad feelings about missionaries of any faith and the things that often happened to the so called heahtens they were trying to save in more modern times. Not at all Christ like or good inmy book.

For me personally about the body thing. The human body of Christ was a mere manifestation of what was necessary to do his job. The body itself was how Christ was NOT who Christ was. But that's just me. Although I belivev in God the father, God the son and God the Holy Ghost/Spirit I tend to just mostly think in terms of God not the three seperate manifestations of God. As for a body, it's us. All that have been, are or will be. And it's a mystical body not a physical one since it's our spirits/soul that are truly us not the shells they're incased in.

Oh, and about faith. I admire your goal. I never thought of it as you do. It's a good thing. But now that I have thought about it albeit for a very short time. I think I'd have to be very arrogant to think as a human being, sure knowledge is an possibility. That's where faith kicks in. I believe God gives me enough to accomplish his intentions for me. All the studying and knowledge of the human religious materials could never compare to Him and what he gives constantly.

I believe it is a goal worth striving for - although the possibility is fairly remote.

We do know from the Bible that it is possible, but perhaps reserved for the select few, chosen prophets, seers and revelators. I would say, that Adam, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Isaiah, Jeramiah, Elijah, Elisha, Malachi, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Stephen the Martyr, and at least Paul have recieved a more sure knowledge as a result of the perfection of their faith. If I could dial up one of those guys and ask them the same questions I ask here, I certainly would. After all, most of us would probably say that God speaks to us through the Scriptures or promptings of the spirit or through our Pastor or whatever. The men I named above actually heard a voice (Noah, Adam, John the Baptist, Paul) or actually beheld God personally (Moses, perhaps Adam, Stephen the Martyr, John), they would probably be the best source to go to in order to determine the actual make-up of God.

At any rate - so you're essentially saying that if God has a body or had a body (as Jesus) that it was really some sort of divine stage-prop in order to further his purposes? I guess he pulls the prop out when needed and manifests himself as God and Jesus together but separate, like when Stephen saw him before his death, in order to help us humans comprehend him? Please continue.

First, I'll go through and try to answer Joel's first questions:

I believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct entities. I find undisputable evidence for this in the Bible, and I have never really even doubted it, although I've heard countless arguments against it.

I've never really even thought of the "Did God create good and evil" question, but I'd say no, God did not create good and evil. God is all-loving, all-caring, and all-good. According to Matthew, a good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit (Matt. 7:18). I therefore believe that God is God because he is perfect in his goodness.

I believe that God does have a tangible body. Joel has pointed to some of the passages in the Bible that show this, and I believe that these alone are enough to have faith that God has a body. Being a Mormon, though, I also believe in the Book of Mormon and modern-day prophets, including the First Vision of Joseph Smith, where God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in the woods. They were two distinct personages, each possessing a body. Now, for me, this is just a further addition to my faith, but, as I said, I believe the Bible gives sufficient evidence alone to believe that God has a body.

Having just responded to the previous question, I think I can skip the undefinable power question.

I believe that we have a Heavenly Father as well as a Heavenly Mother. The Father being male, and the Mother being female. In an LDS hymn, one of the verses reads:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the heav'ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I've a mother there.
(O My Father)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm sure this will need further elaboration, but until some questions appear, I'll leave it at that.

I do think that it is very important to come to an understanding of the nature of God. It allows us to understand his love for us more clearly, although I wouldn't begin to say that I understand even a fraction of it. Joel said that he has sought to increase his faith until he comes to a sure knowledge of it, and I agree with him. I may not ever reach it, but I believe, in a way, that I have reached it in a few spots. For instance, when I tell someone that "I know that God lives," I say it without a doubt in my mind. So I would say that I have a sure knowledge of that. As for the type of sure knowledge that many of the prophets of old have had, I would not even compare myself to them.

No, that is what you somehow decided was what I mean. Whether God has/had a body or not is a non issue with me. His existence and goodness is all that counts for me.

As for the others, If I could hear from their mouths exactly what the Bible says I'd accept it. A book written by others saying so and so said, including what God/Jesus siad ids not something I choose to do. I belive man has always had agendas and is certainly not above taking poetic license. The same goes for the make-up of God. But even then, body or not appearnce just wouldn't matter to me. It's Him that matters.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I guess I should have said that's how it came across to me.

So I guess that it would be safe to say that you don't believe in the Bible? Right? I mean, I guess it would be safer to say that you believe it in principal but think that it is potentially full of pitfalls and errors of men? I don't have a problem with that as you may have guessed. I just want to make sure that there's no point in me saying "well the Bible says..." to you. Am I right?

Certainly, you live up to your online moniker.

Well, if I've surmised correctly your feelings on Biblical authority, I'm surprised that everyone else on this site is sitting back and not chiming in, but rather only reading a conversation between a bunch of heretics like you and me.

I guess while I have my doubts about the Bible as well, I'm more prone to accept what it says even than you. The way I read the Bible tells me some things about the Nature of God. I'm aware that others who read the Bible and get a completely different version of the Nature of God than the one I get. I suppose I'd like to know what they think as well.

Yes you are right about that. My friends here have been aware of where I'm coming from, from the get go. They don't necessarily agree with muy view and pray a lot for me but don't cram their beliefs on me.

I've certainly heard the stories of the bible and of Christ and what he did from the bible. I accept that these are good guidelines and give a lot of information about loving all and doing good etc. There is however, much that is suspect to me.

For all that have faith and deep belief in it I think it is wonderful. I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with them loving the bible. It just doesn't work for me. It's the same with organized religion. Whatever the denomintion
If it works for the people God bless them and I'm glad it's there for them I've been a part of that before and don't want to be a part of it anymore.

I don't believe God created good and evil, I believe He created good and choice. I may be wrong, but this is one of those things I don't think being wrong on will keep me out of heaven.

I believe God used an earthly body while here on earth as Jesus, but for Him to actually be a physical body in perpetuity is a little difficult for me to believe. God used many forms to communicate with humans, one was a burning bush - an audible voice came out from what I read and I really don't think God is still a bush God also spoke through a donkey on at least one occasion (more like 2-3), I don't believe He's still a donkey.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Exodus 33:11

The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When put in our english rather than King James', it makes a bit more sense, I believe the author is trying to reveal the tone, topics, and attitude of the conversation, not that there was an actual physical body mouthing words.

Again, if I am wrong, it's nothing to keep me out of heaven.

As for there being a mother in heaven, I find no Biblical scripture to back that up. The idea of a heavenly father is probably more God's way of making it understandable for our finite minds the idea of His presence. I don't think gender matters one way or the other. The Bible continually speaks of 'our Father in heaven', that's good enough for me, I see no reason to spend much time worrying whether God is male or female. He's so far beyond our simple imaginations it's purely speculation on anything past what is found in scripture.

Just a thought, but if God only had a body while in his ministry here on earth, then how do you explain the creation?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now, I wouldn't say that I am an undefinable person, but yet I am made in the image and likeness of God, which means God must have had his body before he sent his Son to redeem his children. Any other interpretations on this scripture?

'in our image, after our likeness' doesn't necessarily mean 'exact duplicate'. An 'image' could be a picture, sculpture, drawing, etc etc. Again, we're dealing in pure speculation, never really knowing the answer. If God and Jesus have human-looking bodies, how do you explain John's description here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Revelation 1

12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seems to be half-human and other pieces of metal, light, fire, and water...

Sorry, sorry, I hit the wrong button

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Allen:
'in our image, after our likeness' doesn't necessarily mean 'exact duplicate'. An 'image' could be a picture, sculpture, drawing, etc etc. Again, we're dealing in pure speculation, never really knowing the answer.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would say that interpeting "God's own image/likeness" to be anything other than "we look like God" is kind of a stretch. I mean sure it cold be a picture, sculpture, drawing, etc. etc. but we know that is is a picture, sculpture or drawing of God. It is after all his own image.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seems to be half-human and other pieces of metal, light, fire, and water...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A careful reading of the scripture reveals that this statement is entirely inaccurate.

Let's take it all apart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If God and Jesus have human-looking bodies, how do you explain John's description here?

Revelation 1

12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well it says "among the lampstands was someone" not something and that would sort of indicate it is referring to a person standing amongst some lampstands. It goes further and describes him as being like a son of man- in other words "human" and as having feet and a chest </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now we know that he also has hair that happens to be white and eyes that blaze like fire (not hair that is actually snow and/or wool, but like it, and not eyes that are actually fire but like it) All of these are words describing what his features are like by comparing them to something else not equating them to something else </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">again, "his feet were like..." not "his feet were..." This is all descriptive language not definitive. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, his right hand isn't seven stars but held seven stars. His mouth was not a double edged sword but rather one came out of it (double-edged sword is common biblical terminology for the word of God). </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, "his face was like the sun," not "his face was the sun," clearly descriptive language. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess he dropped the seven stars before he put his hand on him, but he did place an actual physical hand on John at this point </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So actually, this scripture reveals that Here he states that he was dead. That's a pretty scary thought "God was dead." Obviously, he is referring to the death of Jesus, i.e. when his body and spirit were separated. But now he says, "behold I am alive." If his death was the separation of body and spirit, then to be alive, his spirit and body must be reunited through the resurrection. So why would he get rid of the body again?

What this scripture actually teaches us is that God has a head, hands, feet, a chest, and a mouth. Those are some pretty fundamental parts of a body. Surely God's glory is indescribable and his body far more glorious than ours, but it is not an amalgamation of elemental material, but a body, that can only be described by comparing it to things that are powerful and impressive, like the sun, fire, a double-edged sword, and purity like the snow.