On a serious note I wanted to start a thread on "dealing with stuff." good, bad or indifferent.

I have read posts by several people over the years and even in the interactions with my own wife over the last 11 years, I have learned that though not from Mars we men truly process things differently. I have no intenetion of cracking open that book alluded to in the title. Heck we know that God created each sex with a different purpose in mind, and each with a unique perspective on the world.

I read two things in the last couple of days that struck a real chord in me. The first is Saphy said she is "strong" and presumably that means emotionally, from the context of the post. I have heard those words from my own wife a bazzillion times in the years we have been married. I have heard that phrase from women I have talked or typed to over the years as well. If one plus one equals two then the amount of times I have heard that phrase from a female means that it is terribly important to you all to perceive yoruselves as "strong."

Here is the question. Knowing God is our strength. Why is (emotional/mental) strength so important to you (females) And the flip side. Why is a preception in yourself or others that you might not be a mountain of granite seem so devastating?

The other thing that trampled its way through my little pea brain is that there is a perception that "stuff" does not affect men. Case in point at some point you have probably experienced being financially strapped. (most mariages and relationships suffer damage because of this very thing) The typical female (in my experience) will lose sleep, become irritable, etc while her spouse is a picture of serenity on the couch with the evening paper or is joking it up or even <gasp> being armorous (this trend is often true even if the man is not saved)

Here's the question. Knowing God made us differently. Why does our (mens) reaction NOT manifesting itself in the same way yours does translate that we do not react?

Your turn!

Please.....

I have learned so much about women and how they PRECEIVE things over the last year.

So, just a brief something I came up with. Some of it is probably related to this and some not. Just riff raff from the bimbo in Georgia.

In relationships and marriage God did have a plan. Truly, there IS a "chain of command". The man is head over the house and the woman submissive to man, because the woman contains the womb. The man carries the seed. The seed is always OVER the womb. In all things God created.

God didn't leave out anything. He created the male and female body to structurally be fit for their job in life, the nervous systems are opposite and yet companion, the emotional setup is entirely different. Why? A man is designed to stand between the family and the world. The woman is designed to nurture the family (from womb and on up in age until they are gone). Man is designed to face the world with his chin, chest, and shoulders while the woman is designed to bring her home “into herself” (the womb = into). The man's body strength is in his upper body while the woman's is in her hips and legs.

So…did God not know what was doing? Ha! But, boy has man tried to pervert the very nature of the human that God created.

A man (in general) has no concept of a woman's emotional needs. We are designed from birth to “protect” and 'fix'. A woman (in general) is designed from birth, to hold near and nurture. So her values as a mortal being are not that of a man's. In a sense, a man's values always “go out from him” while a woman's values always “draw into her”.

This is why the woman is wounded and offended when the man looks at her like a stick floating down the river when she tries to explain what's hurting her. Doesn't she have a roof over her head? Isn’t there food in the pantry? Isn’t the closet full of clothes? So what's the problem?

And when he pulls away she bullies around in frustration wondering, what's HIS big problem, why doesn't he see me here FOR him? And he's thinking (but doesn't know how to put it into words) "Yes but you're behind me and the world is before me."

Some of you ladies will read this and has no idea what I'm talking about. It all boils down to the fact that a man has to provide for his family. If he accomplishes this, he feels worthy. If he does not, you've got a mess on your hands.

A woman demands attention. She feels worth through the loved ones around her. She reflects off her mate. She's a whole other creature.

So......what is the solution to the problems that arise? Well, if you ask me it's to burden down the wife with all the responsibilities of the household and let her get a good taste of THAT stress (just kidding)

The real solution is “respect”. You don't have to understand everything there is to know about a person, in order to respect them. Respect begins with God. Respect His perspective, regardless of how blind we are. If males and females could simply learn respect for one another, a lot of unanswered questions would suddenly become unanswerable.

Just my 2 cents.

In Christ

Oh my gosh....where do I start with this one. You are diggin' deep now.


First, I have to tell you that I presume (and may be wrong) but, I really think that my self-description of being "strong" may be a tad diffrent from a lot of other women out there. (This may sound deffensive, but I really just want to explain where this was born in me....my life is now an open book!!!) lol
Life circumstances DEMANDED that I be strong. My mother and father seperated when I was five and my mother died (we believe murdered...but has yet to be proven) when I was six (she was 33). My grandma took me and made me what I am today. Life calloused her. She depended on no one...not even God. But, was wise enough to never stop me (until I got in high school) from attending church. (Thank God for bus ministries). I changed schools 13 times before graduating. Due to court battles....and various other things (including...sorry, can't go there right now...maybe later...) lets just say some abuse that still haunts me present day....I had to be strong or else be taken under by the tide and washed away into this world. Then one day when I was 18...I had an "ah ha" moment. I thought of strong....and tough. And I hit my knees and began to pray. I wanted to know why those words came to me and what they meant. My lesson was that I was strong. When adversity hit me...I dealt with it....thus growing stronger and stronger. But to people that were "tough"....adversity only made them tougher. And there is a difference. Leather is tough. Tough is calloused (like my grandma). A very hard outer shell...a wall, if you will. I wanted to build bridges...get over "stuff"...not build walls to keep everyone...sometimes even God,himself out. Then sometime or another...can't recall the time frame. But, I heard someone speaking...and this ONE phrase has stuck with me forever..."Your past can either "make you" or it can "break you". I (Donna) chose that day...to recognize that with God, I was strong. And thankful for my past. Even with all the pain and hurt. I never realized until I was a grown woman...that I never had a "childhood". Had to grow up fast. And I did. I was as mature at age 13 as I am today.

Now, all that being said....what now?

I have learned (possibly from my own failed marriage) that men and women do react very different to the same situations. (Oh my gosh...could I ever tear out on a tangent right now...but I will spare you!) I think I could probably stop right here....because the same mechanism (fight or flight) in the male chemical make up....well...I am wired the same way in that department. For the first 8 years of my marriage...any time we had a disagreement...I was lookin' for my car keys to get outta dodge for a while. Was gone a year and a half...at one point. I think our roles were reversed somewhere at some point. Case in point: Shortly after we were married...he got laid off. He (The lord knows I am telling the truth....call my ex's mom...she will tell you) would go to his moms and watch "Guiding Light" instead of finding a new job. So, little Miss Fix-It....did the following to pay the bills: 1)worked 25 hours per week at Cookie Co in Beaumont Mall 2) worked 25 hours as Asst. Manager at Cookie Co in Lake Charles Mall 3) Cleaned my pastors house every Monday 4) Sold AVON to anyone that would half way glance at me. Guess where I ended up? At St. Elizabeth hospital....by myself...Hubby was at car races. Drove myself to ER...when released at 3 AM...drove myself home. (MI killed my mom. So, chest pains grab my attn....that time it was stress.) I am not raggin on my ex. I am trying to address what you asked. He had no work (and I interperted his response as not dealing with it....)so, I tried every way that I could to deal with it myself. Did he have a plan? To this day...12 years later, I still can't answer that. Huge communication problems.

I walked away from that marriage wondering how on earth I could possibly fail at something so major. Still beat myself up pretty bad. And, because its late and I know that I am rambling...I have something else to throw out for you, (because I trully trust your wisdom)....in the last two weeks...I have been dealing with this "forgiveness" issue. (Believe it or not...I struggle with that BIGTIME! I don't hold grudges...just have a problem in the forgiveness dept.) I have had this overwhelming urge to tell him that I am so sorry. And I can't make sense of this. We were divorced on March 13 and he remarried on April 13. What is done...is done. He seemingly has this wonderful great life now. New house, new truck, new wife, new stepson....(and I am NOT bitter. The last thing that I told him was that he is the father of my children and my wish was for him to be happy. I was just sorry that I wasn't the woman that could make him happy....Yes I said all that and yes, I meant it...still do.) But, see, in some of this quiet time...Ugh! This is what happens. Analysis. Seems like when he would give it his best shot to make our marriage work...I wouldn't give him a fair chance....and vice versa. We just couldn't ever be on the same page. Then it was too late. I begged him to go to counselling. Something, anything...to save what we had. No dice. He said I was the one with a problem. So, after almost 12 years....I was tired.

I was talking to a girl at work the other night. She was inquiring about my "story". Then she said that she could NEVER imagine seperating or getting a divorce. She said, "Greg is my best friend. If we ever divorced I wouldn't just lose my husband...I would lose my friend."....All I could do is look at her and say, "Girl, you are so blessed....don't ever lose that. Ever."


Well, Steve, hopefully a "normal" woman will add a post that makes sense. Because I know that I am not run of the mill. And after all that I have wrote here....I haven't really addressed your query. But, I wanted to try to explain some of "where I am comin' from" when I respond.....

Take care, bro and please, keep the advice comin'...don't ever shy away from telling me something that you think I need to hear. Just because I may go a few days of not speakin to you...doesn't mean I am not sitting over here chewing on every word you send. (Just pickin' about not talking to you...lol) Takes time for me to digest some of this "deep" stuff. But, I am growing and its in a good direction.

I appreciate my praisecafe family....more than my words on this screen can articulate. I think that I found this site...."just in time".

'nuff for now (really tooooo doggone much!)

Saphy

Can I say just ONE more thing...then I promise to shut up and go to bed!

Never had the chance in a relationship to let the defenses down and to not have to be the "strong" one. Guess I am like a magnet...I must draw the weaker guys to me.

(May I start packing for the convent now?)

I really get tired sometimes. Maybe God is "breaking me". Maybe I am not supposed to be this way.

Maybe, just maybe....its very late and I should go to bed now???

Good night...
Saph

April 11...he remarried....not the 13th. See, I find my errors after sleep and coffee!!

Saphy

Saphy, you're a remarkable woman. You didn't fail in marriage. Just MHO. The strength you've learned over time gave you the tools to carry on/provide/fix after he lost his job. It seems he's used to women taking care of him. Since you spent so much time taking care of the finances, he went to ma ma to take care of him. You are strong enough to take care of yourself, he needed another woman to take care of him once you fired him. When the chips are down, we'll see who has the problem and who doesn't. This may well not be his last marriage just the next one. I suspect if/when you maryy again you will have learned from the past and get the marriage you deserve. Keep the faith kiddo!

Thank you, Kris...

This has been a tough row to hoe. I sometimes feel like an actress. Ya know, you have to present yourself in a manner in which "you have it all together". In the real world, no matter what is going on personally, you still have to work, still have to tend to the kids, still have to go to school and church. It is sometimes easier to put on the "happy face"...the "hey, look at me...I am on top of the world" face.

Its when the masks come off and the veil is removed, that people see what is really going on. I am afraid that is what is happening to me, with all of you. Some how, I have been brought to this place of brutal openess and honesty. You all respond to me...and it is like medicine for what has been ailing me for such a long time. Advice, words of lovingkindness, encouragement...maybe some of you judge, but I haven't heard from the judger's yet.

I don't look in the mirror and see "remarkable"...but I appreciate your thoughts. That means a lot to me. I am just like millions of other single mothers that have been displaced by the ugliness of divorce. We do what we must to take care of out children and then the world. We work, we go to school to chase bygone dreams that may or may not transpire....and we appreciate the blessings in the smallest of things.

I know that we live in grace (thank God)...but, fear that I may never get the chance to marry again. Don't know if He will grant me that honor again. We will see....and I promise to keep you posted! Girls like me have been down this road before and have kids to prove it. "Package deals" are a hard sale these days. And I made a promise to my son to never put him in an environment like he was in with his dad (of physical abuse). It takes a special kind of man to love another man's kids. And I am aware of that. I hope to love again. I just refuse to "jump" into anything. I get weak in this department sometimes....

Its all a process. Thats all. But another granny-ism...is that "This too, shall pass."

Thanks again for allowing me to be so candid and you will never know what your kind words have meant to me today.

Saphy

By the way, my confidante, Embie...has personally taken on the challenge of changing some of my thinkin' (stinkin' thinkin'...lol)

The bible says that iron sharpeneth iron...(thankyou for taking time for me, Embie...you are awesome)

Saphy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I don't look in the mirror and see "remarkable"... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But from what I can gather, you're looking in that mirror and are making changes toward that remarkable, and that is all that God ask of us.

I was just thinking to myself this morning, "Why can't we just be honest?"

And I think you answered most of those questions with your comments of "Ya know, you have to present yourself in a manner in which "you have it all together". In the real world, no matter what is going on personally, you still have to work, still have to tend to the kids, still have to go to school and church. It is sometimes easier to put on the "happy face"...the "hey, look at me...I am on top of the world" face."

Why do we do this? How am I as a brother in Christ or even just a friend supposed to know that you, me or anyone else is in need if nothing is ever said about those needs?

In my case I know that we had problems but never to the extent that my wife felt. I do not think that divorce is something that most people just wake up and say "Hey, I think I'll get a divorce today." She must have had previous thoughts about this but never told anyone. Or at least never told anyone that could have actually done things about it.

Me, myself and I,....well... I'm learning to drop those masks, those fales impressions of "I am fine" for the truth. How else can I or anyone else help or offer suggestions if we all pretend that everything is just hunky dory?

Keep up the good work girl! God's working (or maybe beating) things out of us and it is all for the better. It might not make any sense today....but one day it will all come together.

I know, just me rambling on about nothing. Guess I stayed up to late last night.

your not just rambling on ...what u said is true and one day.... everything will come together....the thing is you can never be sure when.

in the beginning, this site was named 'stand318' a reference to 2 corinthians 3:18

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
2 Corinthians 3:18
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's all about 'taking off the mask' - we're all just sinners saved by grace... the 'saving face' routine only wastes time - not that I've ever been above wasting time Putting on the happy face keeps us from getting the attention we need, as TH put better already.

Anyways... of course we're different, we should celebrate that and not look at it as an obstacle to real relationships.

Oh my! What a thread this is shaping up to be!

Thanks you all for your great thoughts!

TH: You are right. respect is at the core. How can we as mere people respect each other if our relationship with the almighty isn't one that is based on respect! (remember all those verses that tell us to "fear" the Lord)

Saphy: I agree, you did not fail at marriage. Your marriage failed. It takes two participants bringing God's best to each other in mutual service to make a success out of a marriage, anything less and it becomes ok, then tolerable then disappointing......etc. Masks. I remember way back in grade school, they taught us the keyboard chords to an old (new then) Beatles song, "Elanor Rigby." The one thing I remember about it was the line. "..and the face she kept in a jar by the door" That line has stuck with me for um a while now. I think it fits here well. That is the nifty thing about being genuinely Christian. It is A-ok to be miserable, or mad or sad. If you want scripture I can post it. It is all the TV people and a few in the church that think that we should all act like we smell lavender and can lie in fields of daisies when we actually feel like *&^*%$#. Those people are wrong and quite the hypocrites if you look at scripture. David, in many of his Psalms was absolutly wretched, crying out to God for help!

YOU may not see much when you look in the mirror, but do this for me. Take a sheet of paper and tape it just to the side of your reflection in the mirror then write on it in bold letters "God thinks you are worth dying for!" Then every day as you dress you will see those words by your face. Come back and let me know what you see in the mirror in two weeks!


(and no one ever answered my questions )

Ok, I can do that...Steve.

I am finding myself near tears as I just arrived at work. Funny you should mention David to me. I just listened to part of a bible study on my commute to work about him. I know that I am alot like David. That is good and bad. But wierd to me that I hear it on the radio and then you mention it. And then the scripture that Allen posted. I think I need to spend some time in the word.

I have to get on the boat and get to work. I will try to check back later.

Thanks y'all. This removing the veil business is more serious than I thought. But I am not blinded to the fact that it has to be done.

Take care,
Saph

Just want to say I love y'all and I'm so glad that God brought me here. Half tongue in cheek I sometimes say one of two things about the human situation. a) "The only thing wrong with this world is people." b) " I hate people." Coming here renews my faith in mankind constantly.

Ok, I need to understand this....

Allen said:
It's all about 'taking off the mask' - we're all just sinners saved by grace... the 'saving face' routine only wastes time - not that I've ever been above wasting time Putting on the happy face keeps us from getting the attention we need,

Am I on a different wavelength? If I am, please tell me.
If we unveil ourselves to the world (ie. our place of employment, the grocery store, wherever...just everyday places in our daily life), then I feel like I would appear to others as if I were on an emotional roller coaster. There are days that I am "up" and days that I am "down". Its like a protection mechanism. I would probably be fired if I always let my true emotions show at work.

Or, should life be more of maintaining a balance whereas there is more of a constant.

I thought that I always sorta prided myself on not being "sometiming". What you see is what you get. What you saw at church is the me that you would see at Walmart. (Aside from the fact that I was just preached to about "pride"...)
What am I not getting with all this???

This thread has seemingly opened a whole can of worms in my life. And I know that it is a good thing. But, I just want to understand....really "get it".

Saph

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Steve:
Oh my! What a thread this is shaping up to be!
(and no one ever answered my questions )</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK, so I'll go back and look at them again. The second one I may have touched on but in a round about way.

The first......Duh! I'm a guy so it might be tough. But....being where I've been I've gathered a little insight into women. Maybe one day I'll get o share it with my former wife.

I may be wrong, but what I think Allen is getting at is that when we put on appearances, whether it's to protect ourselves or others, we rob others of the blessing of being able to minister to us, and rob ourselves of that ministering. Sometimes we don't want a person to know about our pain, but in reality, we are crying out for understanding. Only when we are open, are we then able to receive. It's a really really scary thing to be vulnerable and wide open to the world. When we are "unveiled" or "unmasked" we must trust. Some of us...(*cough...me...cough*) have trust issues.

Saphy, can't possibly know what others mean by what they are saying and perhaps haven't been all that clear myself so here are some more thoughts.

I suspect what we are trying to say is just be yourself. If it's a good day be that person in all of it's manifestations. If it's a down day, I suspect nobody expects you to go overboard being miserable and making a big display of it. However, Whether it's family, friend, or coworker, it should be alright for you to indicate it's a blue day or some such. That way they can sort of give you some space, a hug, a shoulder or whatever it is you need.

Actually as far as family goes, it allows them to minister to you and not be overdemanding. Most people I know are NOT mindreaders. People can't know what you need unless you tell them. People can't know what you are feeling unless you tell them. For kids I personally see it as a real life lesson. It let's them know that when the chips are down there is nothing wrong with feeling sad or even angry for a while. That to GET OVER things they need to be dealt with and felt.

If absolutely nothing else, please continue being yourself here. This is a safe place of warm caring people. We'll offer support if we can and a boot in the butt if you need that. Balance is a good thing but not always possible. That's what friends, family and even coworkers are for. To help you maintain balance as you do them. If you find that we or any support system you have is not enough then it's time to see somebody more qualified than we are. To have a futere we all need to deal with the past. Unless we want a repeat performance of our lives before...

Ok, here is the conclusion that I have come to. I have thought about this thread and all that you all have shared with me day and night. I don't think that all of this is what Steve had in mind. BUT....I think that you all have helped me see that there is lots of "stuff" that maybe I have just neglected, personally, that has now been brought to the forefront in my life. I was honestly cruising along....thinkin that all was well. I have lots to sort out....pray about and get over. For now...I my break is over and I have to go back to work....but I will sign back on and write more later....thanks to you all.

saph

Well, I am home now....five hours later. But, true to my word...I am signing back in to write more.

I was thinking back earlier today about the shape that I was in after giving birth to my daughter. Emalie was very sick as a newborn. For those of you who are local...I had her at St. Mary's in Port Arthur. My doctor could deliver at either St. Marys or Park Place and my insurance company would pay at either hosp...equally. I chose SM. No particular reason. But when you are pregnant...you (atleast I didn't) don't anticipate having a sick baby. Emalie was full term...scheduled C-section, but her lungs weren't ready. SM didn't have a neonatal ICU. So, before I could even hold her for the first time...she was transported to Park Place. (Talk about hindsight). That was so very hard. I had to stay in SM for three days. The nurses were awesome (thanks Allen). They took pictures of her and sent them to me to tape to my IV pole to give me inspiration to get out of there to go see her. She was six days old before I got to hold her for the first time. She was in the hosp. for 14 days. I drove to see her day and night, twice a day...it was a 35 min. drive. Needless to say...as a result...my physical healing took a bit longer. But that was my baby...and I couldn't stay away. (would do it all over again...if given the chance) Anyway...several months later....several doctor visits later...my body was still outta whack. I was pretty discouraged. Finally, at a clinic...a nurse practicioner suggested that I was suffering from "baby blues" and sent me to "talk to someone". Now, I was thinkin that I was "looney tunes". But I *knew* that it was a physical problem. Well, of course this therapist that was evaluating me was male. And trust me when I tell you that he really, really dug deep. (emotionally). After three hours of talking and crying and dredging up these sleeping giants....he left out the room to confer with only God knows who...then came in and said, "Donna, you need a medical doctor. For some reason, your body has yet to heal since the birth of your daughter....when your physical body heals, your emotions will all balance out. But right now, you have to concentrate on getting well." I just wanted to say, "I sat through all this for nothing. That is what I have been saying all along." But I didn't. As I was leaving....He stopped me and this is what he said, "Mrs. Jenkins (that is who I used to be...pre-divorce), when you are well physically, will you find someone to talk to?" I looked at him with a long stare. Then he said, "Because there is a six year old girl in there that is dying to tell her story, please. Will you talk to someone?" I left there crying. Because I knew exactly what he was talking about.

I think that I went the long way around but, you know by now...that I have no idea how to be breif.

Now I am all (and I do mean ALL) stirred up. Several times thru the years...I have earnestly thought that I had given all this mess to God. But like a bad nightmare...it seems to haunt me. I seem to be the Queen of blocking this stuff out. Thus, I think that is my reason for the masks and the veils.

David came to the place that he said the battle is not mine, Lord, I give it to you....it is thine. And he had to completely absolutely positively take his hands off the situation before God could take over the battle and win it. I trully wish that I was comfortable enough to really spill all the details of this situation. But, it is hard. And I just can't right now.
It has been six years since that evaluation. Six years. And I don't think that I have even thought of it until all this came up about the masks and veils....
I swear that I am at a loss of how to "feel" right now. Those that are closest to me have heard me mention over the last two years..."that I am not really "ok" right now...but when the dust settles...I have a blessed assurance that this ol' girl is gonna be ok." It is a painful thing to realize all of a sudden I have uncovered some pretty ugly things that I feel can no longer be hidden away by a mental block.
I don't like this feeling. Is the only way out...prayer? Do I need a breakthrough? It is much easier to don the veil, if you ask me. This is all very real, though. Oh my God, this is reality.

Well, there it is....with as much play-by-play that I can muster up right now. I am appealing to you for answers. As this has totally turned me inside out...and it was so unexpected. So caught off guard.

I am logging off now. Try to take a nap and catch the early service. I am sooooo tired. I feel like I could sleep for a week!

Peace out....
Saph (feeling like "psycho-Saph" at present...this is all pretty crazy!)