</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Saph (feeling like "psycho-Saph" at present...this is all pretty crazy!)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not quite "psycho" nor "crazy" but maybe just a deep thinker. ) we all slept late this morning and missed Church so it's now time for our little personal study.

Thinking and praying for you.

Have a and let it bring a smile to your face.

Saphy and TH, God love and Bless both of you! Ysterday while pondering this very thread, the two of you were very much in my mind and I was even going to do a somewhat glib yenta thing. I was going to suggest if the two of you were close enough distance wise that you get together and see where it may lead. You both seem very wonderfual people that have a lot to offer another and deserve to get. Enuf of that for now though.

Donna, you are new here, and unless you've dug way back you probably aren't aware of this so here I go again. I have some understanding of blocking and masking past events. I am double diagnosed with deep clinical depression and post traumatic stress disorder. This is both hard to say and uncomfortable to many to hear. I was a battered child and also a rape survivor and victim of incest as a kid. My burying, denial, blocking affected every single area of my life for decades. It also affected every single relationship I ever had including the one with God. This is where God helps those that help themselves comes in again. I had let go and let God. To a degree that worked but he helped in ways I either ignored or stubbornly rejected since I was strong and could do it myself. I had been in and out of therapy but never really dug deep or resolved anything. Finally in my forties, I became a college student and my major was psychology. Suddenly in psych classes, sociology classes, biology and others I was studying not just subjects but my life. I started getting an understanding of the affects of earlier events and what was necessary to win the war (I didn't know I was in) and start being how God intended me to be. I had never choregraphed a suicide but did realize that there were/are times when I tell God to just let me die. With His new given knowledge I knew I needed help that he showed me a way to. I realized that leaving it to him wasn't enough He wanted me to find someone who had the skill to give me the tools I needed to help me heal. I have some understanding of your six year old dying to tell her story. My little boy was a different age but I did find that after I took care of him, I was better.

TH, has it occured to you that you may NOT have been the only broken person in the relationship? Your former wife may have/may be as or more broken than you. On the other hand, once you were fixed or on your way to at least being better she may have lost interest and felt unecessary. There are those who love a challenge and fixing things. Once it's done they look for the next thing/person to fix. Anyhow you sound like a great guy and I'm sure there's a lady God has in mind for you somewhere. At the very least, the weller you can help yourself, your kids and anyone else you will share yourself/story with.

You'll both be in my thoughts and prayers. Keep the faith.

Wow....and I thought that the tears had stopped for the day....

UnconventionalKrisChen, you DO understand. Thank you.

Just this morning, after church, a friend walked up to me. And without a doubt....I am thankful for her being aware that I needed to pray...although I couldn't make myself go to the alter to do it. I thought on this wavelegth all thru service...."Lord, I was unaware that I was pretending to be alright with everything...when I really wasn't. And now that I see that all is not well...and hasn't been in a really long time....I am suddenly so tired of putting on this "brave" front." A broken and contrite spirit...here I am, broken again. Suddenly vurnalble to whatever. So, we prayed. She grabbed and elder of the church. And we prayed. The tears rushed from me...like they had some place special to go. It has been such a long time since I wept. (And I just hate that "big ugly cry"...you know the one that makes you look like you were taken out back and whipped!) But this morning...I didn't care. I needed a touch from the Master. I need Him to speak to this wind and rain. I need the peacespeaker to speak to my storm. I guess I am selfish...because I prayed for a quick work. I can't stand feeling like this.

When I sought conselling, Kris, from my former pastor....about the abuse. He told me the strangest thing. He said that I would have to come to a place that I could forgive the attacker. Of course, I looked at him like he was crazy. But of course he was right and had scripture to prove it. But, I struggled with that forgiveness issue....and continued to struggle with it for a very long time. Because somehow I felt that he should ask me to forgive him. (but then again...I am the one that is trying to go to heaven, heh?) Time rolled on. Still no forgiveness....Then, in May, my grandma's best friend in the whole world called to check on me. Hadn't spoken to her since the day we burried my grandma (it had been a year). Anyway, in that conversation, she said, "Oh, Donna, I know what I wanted to tell you...________ died (that was him)." I said, "What!?!?" She said, "Yes, the last big rain that we got and it flooded so bad...he drowned." He was ten years older than me. And left a son and a wife. I never wanted harm to come to him. I was never full of spite. Just couldn't forgive him. So, now....how am I supposed to forgive a dead man?


TH....
I honestly have identical thoughts and ideas as you do. My consellor sat and listened to me talk...before the seperation...before the lawyer and divorce. I told her that I was a very "driven" person. Loved challenges. There was nothing that I would back down from. Never started a project that I couldn't finish. I told her that I could do lots of things....(ie. fix hair for whole bridal parties, professional cakes from birthdays to weddings, I can draw...anything, I can sing (can't dance...lol), I can teach...I can excel at school (cept Algebra...which is still kickin my butt.)...whatever. Not perfect...far from it...but no matter what, I could always rise to the occassion.) So, why on earth couldn't I keep my marriage together??? She said, "What is the common denominator in all that you just stated?" I said, "Me". She said, "Honey, everything that you have ever heard about "It take two to make a marriage"...is true. (those are her words...because I know that God has to be in there, too.). She said, "you can't make it work by yourself." She was so right. But, I still thought that I could make it happen. Two years later...I retained my attorney. The breaking point happened one night when outta the blue...he said some horrid things to me. I packed the kids up and we went to my home in Louisiana. I calmly told him that I would never be talked to that way again. And we left. Came back to Texas after church the next morning to pack. I was done. No mas. He came to talk to me. He said, "Do you ever do something and wonder what just happened?" I stopped dead in my tracks and said "for example?"...He said, "Like my job. I have been there for five years. Everyday, I go to work and before I leave for the day, I know exactly what I will be doing the next day...so I lay all my tools, paints, etc. out so that when I get there...its all ready."....I nodded in approval. Then he added, "only somedays, I get there and its like I don't even know where I am at....OR even, what I am DOING there." My friends...that scared the crap outta me. I INSTANTLY invisioned him standing over my children and I, all bloody and near death...hearing him say, where am I, what am I doing here, why is my wife and kids bleeding and why is this knife in my hand?....I know that is extreme. But my grandma swore that I would stay with him until he snapped and would kill the kids and I. So, with everything in me....I begged him at that instant to see a doctor. He said that if I would call and make the appt...then he would go. He did. And the doc put him on anti-depressants. Which he took for all of two days and tossed in the trash...Vowing that he shouldn't have to take meds to "live with me".

So be it. Kay Sa Ra Sa Ra

So, here I am....doing everything that I know to do to take care of my kids. I sometimes think that I am killing myself in the process. But, I have no idea how to stop or slow down. I am not stupid....I really just struggle with balance in this circus I call "my life". (We all need the clowns to make us smile...)

I am still convinced that I am "going to make it". That we are going to be alright. No one said any of this would be easy. Right? If it were easy....everyone would be doing it. I guess. I screw up. I make wrong/bad decisions sometimes. I fall down, I get up. Lots of times without anyone even noticing that I missed a step...Thanks to all the masks that I have worn...I try to remember to make myself smile...because despite what you have all said, I still don't want everyone knowing that I have a hard time sometimes. I have talked more about this on this thread than I have in my whole entire life. And to be honest....I am not sure how I feel about that. Mainly because, some of you ARE local...and DO know who I am. Not that that should matter....but it does.

I think that I am making progress. I wish that I could reach out and give you all a great big (((HUG))) because...I sure appreciate the brutal honesty that has been shown here....AND, I sure could use the hug.

I have to get a little rest now...I have to work again tonight.

Talk to you all real soon,
Saph

(Thanks for that daisy...they are my fav, TH!)

UnconventionalKrisChen--

TH, has it occured to you that you may NOT have been the only broken person in the relationship? Your former wife may have/may be as or more broken than you.

Much like Saphy stated in her previous post. It takes two to make a marraige work. But as long as my wife could find fault with me she never really had to look at herself.

The hardest thing I have ever done is to look at myself in the mirror and face reality for the pain and suffering that I did cause her.

Failure! Nope

It's only a failure if we do not learn form it and make changes for the better.

So....it's only been in the last few weeks that I have come to a place of knowing who I am. Yes, to good parts of me and the bad parts of me. Positive and negative are all included.

Guess what! I really ain't that bad of a guy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So, now....how am I supposed to forgive a dead man? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The same way that you forgive a living person.

Forgiveness is completely letting go of the past, its pain, anger, and grief. Forgiveness is operating in the here and now - where this event is no longer occurring.

Forgiving happens inside of us when we let go of the sense of grievance, when we decide that we no longer want to be the victim.

Simply put..........Forgiveness is a decision we make when we choose to forgive, even when forgiveness is not asked for. When you hold onto the bitterness or anger that an individual has caused you... that person is still in control of you and continues to have power over you. (yes, even dead people can do this)

I'll share a litte life tidbit here.

I discovered the year that I turned 18 my mother had gotten pregant out of wedlock. Bear in mind that this was back in the 60's, so people looked at it a little differently then. (The good thing from this is that now my Dad can actually celebrate their anniversary on the right date)

Inside story there; Mom ALWAYS fussed at our Dad when he came home on January 16 and had an anniversary present. She would go ballistic on him because he forgot when they had gotten married. WE were married on August 16, NOT January 16, when will you ever get it right.

But....18 years later I stumbled across their marriage certificate during a move. Opps....it seems that Dad had actually remembered the right date. 18 years of lies to cover up that one simple fact. 18 years of anger at her mother and father for telling her that she was a disgrace to the family. They would not even let her have a wedding, had to go to the courthouse to get married, just her and Daddy.

But even then she did not let go of that bitterness and anger. It was only after my Grandmother's death that a lot of these little know things surfaced. But I remember well the day I took my Mother to my Grandmother's grave along with a chair.

She sat there for almost six hours doing nothing but pouring out the hate and bitterness that she had suppress for years, approximately 30 years worth at that time. Oh! She screamed, cussed, cried and then would get silent for a while and go through the same process again.

But......when we left the grave well after dark my mother was a changed woman. Yes, she forgive her mother, stated that several times during the day. But she did forgive her.

So...this is where God has taken me in the last several months. I wrote this for my healing site;(where I vent, rant and letGod change me into what He would have me to be.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before you can really know what forgiveness is, it would help to know what forgiveness is not. And I can honestly tell you that it is a process. It is NOT something that you do once and then forget about it.

I had thought that I forgiven my wife back in November of last year. At that time I had no idea as to what I was even forgiving her for. I had to first learn and accept what it was, process the anger and disappointments that came with that discovery and then CHOOSE to forgive.

But even then I still had it all wrong. Oh, sure....I was heading in the right direction with this forgiveness thing but I still had much to learn. I remember telling her that I did one day expect her to come to me and at the very minimum say, "Trusting, I made a mistake and I am sorry. Can you forgive me?"

You see, I was expecting something from her. And because of that expectation I was actually holding back my true forgiveness for her. I could not let go of my anger or my disappointment until I heard those words. But because of that I had already set myself up for a disappointment. What if she never does that? Am I destined to hold onto these feelings forever?

No! I finally came to the understanding that forgiveness was more of a gift for me than it was for her. By me choosing to forgive her and letting go of those terrible feelings I then became a free person, one free to receive God's love and grace for me. You see.....God tells us to forgive, just as He forgave us.

Take a look at the Lord's Prayer...

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: (Matthew 6:9-14 KJVA)

After He has given us a sample prayer He follows it up with a statement, actually a reiteration of one already made in the prayer. For IF you forgive others your Father in Heaven will forgive you. If you DO NOT forgive others, your Father WILL NOT forgive you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I did not want to be in a position of God NOT forgiving me.

Saphy, TH has good stuff in that last post. Especially about the forgiveness. I would just like to add in case it's not been brought to your attention or occured to you. Foregivness will/does more the the forgiving than it actually does for the forgiven. Often guilt, anger and other negative emotions go with it. When you forgive them you forgicve yourself too. Don't know if this will be of any help or make any sense to you. I had already forgiven my abusers in my own mind. However, it wasn't until I actually confronted them and told them what the things they had done to me and the affect it had on me was and that I did forgive them for it, did it matter. Me hearing myself say I forgive you was probably more important than their hearing it. Your abusers body is dead. His spirit lives on so talk to it. After all it's our spirtit/soul that realy matters, the body is just the package that holds them while here. It was only through Him leading me to the professional I saw and the hardwork he gave me the strength to put in that helped me get better. Believe me when I say, God doesn't have a problem with giving credit to my psychologist and myself. I know it came from him but he gave the shrink the knowledge to give me the tools to use. I didn't mention it earlier but I did a stint of Alcohol and drug abuse time as well as being promiscuous. I just accepted I was a mess up. When I got better and understood my acting out, I also had to forgive myself. It was harder to truly do that than forgive the others.

TH, ya got it my man. No failures, just experiences to learn from. Good for you. When I finally got it, I was really mad that I made myself go through as many learning experiences as I had. But hey, I finally graduated with honors. LOL School of hardknocks.

Wow what a lot of stuff!

Lemme start by echoing Thom and TH.

Forgiving someone else does nothing for them (scripturally speaking) however it is crucial for the potential forgiver to do so, so that they may continue to grow with God. Unforgiveness (and forgive me if it has been touched on already) puts us in a place where God says that He will not forgive us and places us outside of the area (His will) that He showers with His blessings.

Now from a context of the world telling someone you forgive them has great potential. One, it shows them that you are Christian and can plant a seed. Two, it starts the healing process between two people.


* It has been quite a few posts since you mentioned what I intended when I started this thread. Well my intent was to discuss some of the basic differences between men and women and the way that we each process "stuff" I inadvertently used a "current event" and it was much like picking a scab and hitting an artery (sorry if the analogy is disgusting....) I think the current trend in this thread is just fine, we can get back to the other some other day.

I want to get back to masks and putting on a bright face. You know I have heard preachers say things like "fake it til you make it" and awful stuff like that. That is so against what God wants for us. Here is one of the Psalms I was talking about:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Psalm 5: 1 Give ear to my words, O LORD ,
consider my sighing.
2 Listen to my cry for help,
my King and my God,
for to you I pray.
3 In the morning, O LORD , you hear my voice;
in the morning I lay my requests before you
and wait in expectation.

4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;
with you the wicked cannot dwell.
5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong.
6 You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men
the LORD abhors.

7 But I, by your great mercy,
will come into your house;
in reverence will I bow down
toward your holy temple.
8 Lead me, O LORD , in your righteousness
because of my enemies-
make straight your way before me.

9 Not a word from their mouth can be trusted;
their heart is filled with destruction.
Their throat is an open grave;
with their tongue they speak deceit.
10 Declare them guilty, O God!
Let their intrigues be their downfall.
Banish them for their many sins,
for they have rebelled against you.

11 But let all who take refuge in you be glad;
let them ever sing for joy.
Spread your protection over them,
that those who love your name may rejoice in you.
12 For surely, O LORD , you bless the righteous;
you surround them with your favor as with a shield.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Notice the trend in the psalm. David goes from "help me my king" to "you are merciful God" to (note the whiny overtones next) "Lord they are liars, judge them, get them! they are being mean to me..." then David, after he has his moment he gets a grip again and says "let the righteous be glad..."

That is US. Hey reality check. I complain. I get sad. I get madder than a wet hen. It happens. The lesson for us is not Do we heck we all do. The lesson for us is what do we do when... While we may have to tell a child (using one of my own) "Hey dad is overtired and pretty cranky. You go play and we can take this up later or tomorrow" Sometimes we have to tell a coworker when they ask "hey you look awful, are you ok?" We can say "No, I feel like garbage because of some personal stuff that is going on. But God is good and tomorrow is another day."

There is a large percentage of the church (and I mentioned the TV people earlier too) that truly believe on putting on a show. Shoot, Christians have problems too. Truth be told, people in the church actually have MORE problems than the people out in the world. Either because of an assualt by the enemy or because they have sought refuge and answers in the church because their difficulties


** sorry this is cut off so abruptly. I had to step away for an hour or two and my train of thought derailed **

And with forgiveness comes....

This Psalm of David has spoke to me a lot over the last year. But....it has alos given me a direction to go in, to strive for. The quitness and calmness that this speaks of is what I seek after.

It only comes from a true relationship with Christ. But the word picture that it portrays!

A child in their simplest and purest form, not having yet learned from society the effects of pride and lust. One that is not intrested in anything that this world has to offer with the exception of being quite and content with it;s mother.

I can relate to this as all of our children were brest-fed. The last one WOULD NOT take anything from Dad. It had to be Mom or she would not eat.

Mom has gone out shopping or whatever. Poor child is dying to eat but refuses to take anything unless it's from her Mother. My wife would come home and poor JoJo would go crazy trying to get at her mother.

But once she was fed and full she was quite content to just lie there next to her mother.

So....where would I like to be?

LORD, I have given up my pride and turned away from my arrogance. I am not concerned with great matters or with subjects too difficult for me. Instead, I am content and at peace. As a child lies quietly in its mother's arms, so my heart is quiet within me. Israel, trust in the LORD now and forever!
(Psalms 131:1-3 GNB)

thanks for sharing , espec saphy! as a woman, understand your protect wall. afraid to be burned, be a fool, rejected etc. we are different than men. strength is our character, not gender . [; anyone can be weak too. even men. they are human, no doubt. they cant read our minds-many days-its for the best they cant. how can they listen, if we dont talk. but when we do talk, some get this blank stare and make us feel like idiots for sharing. ? KNOW THAT FEELING VERY WELL. YOU ARE NOT ALONE, WE LOVE YOU SAPHY!

Steve, you will probably be disappointed to read that this gushing artery....has only healed back to a scab.
I have been dealing with some "giant's" lately. The mental and emotional ones. You know.
I think that I am needing some input from my favorite "bro".
Looking back over this thread....in its entirity....has stirred up some things. Maybe, perhaps with a different outlook. As I am now married.
On the original post, you pondered our differences. Well, I would have to guess that it has much to do with our chemicals in our brains. For example, I tend to the bill paying around here. And I am really bad about only leaving a very little bit of money to do till next pay day because I am deadset on being debt free. My hubby, never thinks twice about the finances....when "Mondays" roll around. Without fail, he is on a golf course and if it rains...he is with the guys playing basketball, or whatever. In my woman way of thinking...he could be paying bills with that golf money. In his "guy" way of thinking, he suggests that I take $40 and go do something for "me". This makes no sense to me. So, every Monday, I am thinking..."My God, why can't he see that paying bills is more important than recreation???" And, every Monday he is saying, "This is my way of dealing with stress....I will see you this afternoon." It is certainly at those times that I believe that we are from different worlds. As a man and a wife....I would love to feel like we were playing on the same team (so to speak).

I must also admit that I have worked all night and it is now 630 am. Coffee is ready and I have to get kids off to school. That is my disclaimer...if by chance I have made no sense whatsoever!

Later y'all!
Saphy

i hear you, whats wrong with being responsible first, fun second. [; my dad is that way too. i think im bi polar on both sides. one day-frivolous and another day spendthrift. moods determine use of money it seems. not best excuse, just sad reality. id feel guilty spending first-then paying bills. i cant enjoy myself.

Hello brothers and sisters. My story doesn't match this topic but I want to share it with you...Today is a good day for me and I want to tell you my story. I am 22 years old ordinary guy from Russia(sorry for my English), but with not very ordinary life story. It sounds terrible but today I should have been dead as I have been said two years before in hospital. 4 years ago I fell ill of a difficult illness concerned with metabolism processes. Then in a few months I felt myself very bad and looked like leprous, because this illness influenced my skin. Mostly people around me except my parents were afraid of me and didn’t even talk to me. So me a guy of 19 didn’t have friends and no any contacts with my age guys. I suffered of this much and soon found acquaintances drug addicts. Then I became drug addict too. After this I became a thief and sold many things from my home to earn money for drugs. My parents suffered much. My illness became more difficult and once I was taken to hospital, because I lost consciousness. Doctors said me that my condition is very bad and that my illness is on a hardest stage, so I should live maximum two years. Then my family’s incomings fell down, and I had to find work to earn money for living. But it was too difficult for me because I was drug addict and very ill. Nobody should trust in me.
But one day I met my teacher from school that I graduated from. He left school and created his web-design studio. He understood that I was drug addict but he trusted me and proposed me a work concerned with finding information for Christian online center www.jesus-flower.com and his help as a friend. He showed me a new way of believing in God. After this I began to work almost all day long every day and to go in church. I stopped taking drugs. Soon I became fast recovering. After a year my illness almost disappeared. Doctors in hospital said that I was one from almost million that stood such a horrible illness.
Today I go on writing articles for www.jesus-flower.com and finding interesting information. I am happy and thankful to God for my second chance and for being the happiest man in the whole world. God blesses you all my dear brothers and sisters.

hello Romano. I welcome your post. and you! Glad you are here. thanks for sharing your story, my heart goes out to you. God bless!

FABULOUS STORY!
you are certainly welcome around here too.
nabster

Thank you for the blessing and I wish Gods choicest blessings for you too. I understand addiction. You've had many miracles and the first was the angel (your teacher) God sent you. Thank you for sharing your story. It's uplifting and inspiring.

see, folks here are warm and friendly. like family. sometimes i get mental and snap. but thats just me. God bless all here! [;

thanks Spinster, UnconventionalKrisChen and nabster for reading my story and unswearing it, I'm now starting not only improving my English, but I'd like to have read C. S. LEWIS "The Grand Miracle"...can you advise me some Christian book to read.

The Joni Erickson Tada story is a great read and uplifting also.

yes, she is a great inspiration, just seen her on tv again this week. awesome lady! GOOD CHOICE.

nabster do you have any link to watch her...I don't watch TV. I like such stories. Recently read an article by K.P.Yuhannan(professor)...if you know him. Rather interesting. Pray for you friends