I think my post was controversial because I tend to think of the world in terms of absolutes. I consider any sexual act without the involvement of ones spouse to be a form of infidelity in every case. The reason I feel this way probably has less to do with me being a Mormon than it has to do with a book I once read called “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Viktor Frankl.

Viktor Frankl was a Jewish Psychologist who was imprisoned in a concentration camp during WWII. I don’t remember a lot from the book, but I do remember being struck by his observations regarding his feelings for his wife and the general attitude towards sex by the Jews in the Camp. He explains that when man is stripped to the core and must struggle daily to survive that a person’s sexual drive effectively ceases and it is no longer an issue. Why worry about satisfying your sexual appetite when you need simply to satisfy your real appetite. That in and of itself was surprising, granted prisoners in today’s prisons aren’t starving and on the brink of death, so maybe it’s not comparable, but many of them have very strong sexual drives that exhibit themselves very violently (I used to run a religious library in a prison).

Within a few pages of mentioning the loss of a sexual appetite among prisoners, he begins to talk about his feelings for his wife. What struck me is that in that most basic form of life that he was living, as he thought about his wife, his memories were not consumed by sexual encounters in fact he doesn't think about their physical relationship at all, but rather his thoughts are consumed by conversations, bus rides together, dinner with his wife, and listening to music together. It is clear to me, at least, that his experience demonstrates that the real strength of a marriage is not in the sexual manifestations of love, but rather in the more mundane manifestations of love.

I worry, when a partner in a marriage is so taken by the sexual part of a marriage that he/she has difficulty denying themselves sexual gratification when they are separated for long periods of time. In essence, Frankl shows us that sex is simply not necessary for personal survival (survival of the species of course, but not personal). If for some reason, my wife and I could never have sex again, it would not change my feelings towards her one bit. I love her for the person she is and for the person she helps me to be, not for her talents in the bedroom. I can take that or leave that as long as I can talk with her – so if I’m on the road and I feel romantically toward my wife, why would I masturbate when I could call her up and talk to her and exceed the intimacy of simply satisfying a sexual urge through simple conversation.

I always tell my wife, that I find the simple things romantic. The fact that my wife knows that I hate Miracle Whip (even though she swears by the stuff) and makes sure there is always Best Foods/Hellman's in the house is the height of romance to me. I know it's a silly example, but for her to know me so intimately that there are many things we no longer have to talk about but that we are already "one" in purpose regarding, is real romance - not sex, but nonetheless far more intimate.

You can emotionally be "cheating" on your spouse without having sex. After God, the relationship you have with your spouse needs to exceed in importance any and all other relationship. Putting anyone or anything before them is essentially "cheating."

I guess, I just think that masturbation is completely unnecessary in a healthy marriage and in a healthy life, where God and each other are more important than appetites of the flesh.

Joel, I hear and understand you and for the most part agree with much of what you have to say, think and feel. Your comment earlier about Mr. Frankl. I very much appreciated your phrasing it as HIS experience of the real strengths in a marriage. However, that is exactly what is is his experience. I'm not saying it isn't a good one or perhaps even a right one but nobody else is him so all have different experiences. I'm merely trying to point out that a different experience doesn't necessarily make it less than Mr. Frankl's experience. In all honesty, it would be wonderful if more people had his experience. But, who's to say others don't have that along with a stronger sexual experience too. Is it not sort of judgemental to leave out such a possibility?

The Miracle whip and Hellman's isn't at all a silly example. At least not to me. It's a nice example of non physical love. Since I happen to be celibate I have absolutely no problems understanding your position and opinions. Frankly I believe in them. But, I can't get my head around me being any better a person or Christian than folks who don't live as I do.

I suspect sexuality is a very personal thing between the person and God Almighty. I suspect that God may not be as hungup about it all as we mere mortals are. Just my opinion.

Let's all err on the side of caution, eh?

so not to bring this topic back up..but i have a question for those of you who can relate. Is it a big issue to a guy who is still a virgin to date a girl who is not? I never thought i'd be askin this, but I'm really curious if this is a major issue to guys or what cuz i'm very interested in this guy who is and he acts interested..except the whole long distance thing? i know that when i was a virgin every guy i dated had 'been around the block a few times' and it never bothered me much cuz of the fact they respected me. but u dont see many guys who are still virgins..especially 24 and a virgin so i'm wonderin if this is a biger issue to guys then it was for me..

From my perspective Sex before or outside of marriage is a sin. So it would really depend on how the hypothetical "non-virgin girl" viewed her past actions.

I speak from experience. My wife was not particularly religious at all until about two years before we met when she joined the LDS church. Her attitude towards her past sins and transgressions was one of repentence. If she's repented and the Lord has forgiven her, then who am I to judge. If she is repentant and I hold it against her that she's not a virgin then I am in an equally precarious spiritual position.

I think it relates to maturity level. We've all done things we aren't proud of, for some it might be drugs, some it might be shoplifting, some it might be sex, it could be anything. If we're forgiven, then how can we hold someone else's past against them?

Sure, it would bother someone at least a bit, but someone's past isn't something that anyone can change... it's about moving forward. "Go and sin no more" is what one very wise person said when sexual sin was brought up.

Also, if it is a problem for this guy, then you probably don't want to date him anyway.

So tell him. If he freaks, thank him for his time and be on your way.

When I learned about my wife's past, I pretty much just figured that if I hadn't known any better, I would've done the same thing and that was that.

thanks guys...i figure one day i'll find a guy who can put up w/ me and can deal w/ my past maybe itll be him...maybe not, but ya'll have made me feel a lil better bout this situation

I have a question. I just started a relationship with this guy, who's been a Christian for a couple of months (with sincerity). And, we started it on the wrong foot. But, last night, I told him that the sex had to stop because it is plain and simply wrong. So, he says he doesn't see anything wrong with having sex and he's not going to stop (I was a little confused by this statement), but if I don't want to he won't pressure me. But, he still wants to do the licking-the-back-of-mu-throat kiss that usually leads to sex, and he wants me to spend the night. He was angry that I said I wasn't going to do those things because I don't have any good reason to compromise my decision by placing myself into a tempting situation. He felt that I should meet him 'in the middle' as though I owed him something! I said, I am not compromising on an issue that the Bible specifically says is wrong. So, he wants to know where in the Bible it says that two unmarried people can't sleep next to each other. I am some what at a loss. I could give him the 'run from temptation' line, but he is convinced that he won't have an issue with sleeping enxt to me and not having sex. AAAHHHHHH!!! I feel like I am losing my mind. How can he be a Christian and hold these views?

ok well i can't give you those scriptures cuz i honestly have no idea. but i can tell u from personal experience you cant sleep w/ someone and it not lead to other stuff. This summer i lived w/ my best guy friend. He had a lil twin bed that we shared everynight for 3 months. we were convienced we could live together and not do anything cuz we were just such close friends. and we did for a while i lived w/ him bout a month and a half and never even kissed him. well one night we had beer and movie night (yes i know that sounds bad) but it was pretty much a time we did one a week that no one could interupt..it was our time together. well one night i guess we had a lil too much beer and we kissed. we didnt make out..but we kissed. after that we'd usually kiss goodnight. well anytime we'd both drink together we'd do a lil more and a lil more, but we swore we'd never have sex. we after sleeping in the same bed for 2 months..it happened. the next day we were like uuhhh..now what? well bein the stupid people we were we just went w/ it. of course lyin to all our friends.. well that lasted bout a month and it tore our friendship to pieces. we werent "datin" so we both still flirted and went out w/ other poeple so we both were always jealous. and by the end of that month things just blew up. i moved out and we really havent talked since. i see him everyday cuz we have the same friends and i would give anything to of never stayed there. i know your situation is different cuz you're datin him, but to me that makes the temptation even worse. if this guy truly cares bout you he'll respect your wishes w/o u having to explain yourself even if its to the point where hes like 'i dont agree and this ticks me off but ill do what u want cuz i care that much about you.' but yeah thats my ramblin on bout how sharin beds w/ guys leads to trouble

lorianna, stick to your guns. You have a good head on your shoulders. You realize caring for and perhaps even wanting somone is rough enough without doing things that just make the situation more tempting. HE should realize that you doing anything you are uncomfortable about is wrong to ask you to do. I sort of wonder about his (sincerity) about being a Christian. It could be something he felt was necessary to professs to be with you. I understand young raging hormones and most certainly men and raging hormones. That's no excuse for him trying to lure you into behavior that you don't want to participate in. Since you feel sex under these conditions is wrong, perhaps yopu need to consider he is wrong for you. But what do I know. I'm old. ;-)

Hey Lorianna

Here is the best explanation on sexual morality that I can find.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T367


Bottom line our focus is: To be Christian we must try to hold ourselves to a higher and more ethical moral code. God recognizes that we are not perfect and has sent His son as payment for our slip-ups (sin) that we deeply regret and that we ask to be forgiven for. We cannot just bungle through life then ask for forgiveness later. God demands that we put forth effort, first.

I don't know about the heart of this fella you are dating, though it sounds as if he is taking his advice from something a tad LOWER

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lorianna:
I have a question. I just started a relationship with this guy, who's been a Christian for a couple of months (with sincerity). And, we started it on the wrong foot. But, last night, I told him that the sex had to stop because it is plain and simply wrong. So, he says he doesn't see anything wrong with having sex and he's not going to stop (I was a little confused by this statement), but if I don't want to he won't pressure me. But, he still wants to do the licking-the-back-of-mu-throat kiss that usually leads to sex, and he wants me to spend the night. He was angry that I said I wasn't going to do those things because I don't have any good reason to compromise my decision by placing myself into a tempting situation. He felt that I should meet him 'in the middle' as though I owed him something! I said, I am not compromising on an issue that the Bible specifically says is wrong. So, he wants to know where in the Bible it says that two unmarried people can't sleep next to each other. I am some what at a loss. I could give him the 'run from temptation' line, but he is convinced that he won't have an issue with sleeping enxt to me and not having sex. AAAHHHHHH!!! I feel like I am losing my mind. How can he be a Christian and hold these views? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you guys are having sex and serious like that tell why not go ahead and get married? Tell him that see how he really feels? If you guys are ready to take on that committment you should be ready to get married as well if you are that worried about it.

More than likely he's not interested in a long-term relationship if he can't respect her enough to abide by her wishes.. it doesn't sound like marriage is in the picture. I gotta agree with Kris and Steve... stick to your guns - we guys are good at 'meeting in the middle'... once there we want meet 'more' in the middle until the middle is waaaaaaaaayy over here in the bed.

Welcome chmodbot and lorianna

lorianna--

It's pretty plain. This guy does not respect your opinion nor what you would like to do. You say stop and he says no. Then he begins to lead you down a road that will compromise your faith and you decisions.

Dump Him Now!

Is that harsh? Yes it is. But to look at it from a bibical prespective you can take an example from Joseph.

She grabbed him by his cloak, saying, "Sleep with me!" He left his coat in her hand and ran out of the house.
(Genesis 39:12 MSG)

Joseph did NOT hang around long enough to discuss it, rationalize it or to even let it set in his mind....he ran out of the house. And that is exactly what you need to do now.

If he is this way before marraige ask yourself where his standards will be after marraige.

Here's the thing...

Men have a tough time with sort of thing. That means that you need to be even more firm and more strict with your adherence to what you feel to be appropriate.

In the Jewish tradition (and I'm no expert here) there is a concept of "setting up a hedge around the law." In essence what this means is that you look at the commandment given in the Bible and determine what preliminary actions may lead to the breaking of said commandment. In order to make sure you don't even get close to breaking the commandment, you restrict yourself from the preliminary actions. So essentially you've got the commandment at the middle and it is surrounded by all of these preliminary actions (sharing a bed, passionate kissing, etc.). If you set up a hedge at the preliminary things, and don't participate in them, then you'll never get to the point where you break the big commandment.

Did that make sense?

Wow - thank you all for your responses! I just wish I had come back to this website before today. I was desperately searching for an answer, but I forgot all of the places I had gone searching! I broke up with this guy last night (not pretty, let me tell you), and I probably would have done it a little sooner if I had come back here. You guys are right. You took a little blurb I tossed you that vaguely described this guy and you saw him for who he is.

I was accused of using him for sex, of cheating on him, of manipulating, and a slough of other things that have left my mouth agape. Literally! I am still in shock about this.

I certainly need a better biblical foundation in my own life before I try to make a life with someone else. Had I been able to bring to mind the verse from Genesis:

She grabbed him by his cloak, saying, "Sleep with me!" He left his coat in her hand and ran out of the house.
(Genesis 39:12 MSG)

- I would have run. I wouldn't have felt obligated to give him a second chance. It took everyone I know saying 'Get rid of him' for me to accept that there was no fixing this. Thank God for friends and family who are willing to be honest!

I was talking to my mother last night about how elusive a real God-centered, and loving relationship seems to me. When your in a relationship you get hurt, your heart gets broken, you feel lonely and rejected. Why bother being IN a relationship when I can feel like that outside of one?! Or, for that matter, much better.(Somewhat cynical point of view, I know.)

I have lots to learn, and I'm glad there has been a Body provided for fellowship and comfort, and honesty.

Good to see you again. I'm sorry for your loss, but glad you stood up for yourself - it is really a rarity among many women.

I agree with Allen! It sounds odd, but congrats!


God bless ya!

Sorry, now begins a NEW BEGINNING! Happy New Year!