Yeah, HE, we can open topic there, Embie is good to check it out .... good points everyone !

In the beginning of this thread there was much talk about Song of Solomon. Remember that Solomon prayed for wisdom and received it. If one takes a very close deep look at the Song of Solomon you will see the bride (church) and Christ. I however agree with Allen that Solomon is not an example of what a man should be. I do have a soft spot for Song of Solomon. My beloved and I have used those verse with each other. I never think of Solomon when I write them to my beloved.

Why is it that so many have sexual relationship after sexual relationship and then get in other deviant sexual activities? I think it is because the sex is not fulfilling due to it not being in the marriage bed as God ordained.

UnconventionalKrisChen, you said,<QUOTE> “All of here in just this thread are being very intimate with each other and all that read our words. It's totally nonsexual in nature though. My point is, there is much more ti intimacy than sex. In fact depoending on the circumstances there may be nothing intimate about sex, even between partners unfortunately.”</QUOTE>

Unfortunate is the key word. I know that making love can be very intimate. It can be physical and spiritual at the same time. I am sorry but there are no words to describe it. Since Allen said enough, I will not even go into my history pre my beloved.

I have changed my mind since I have read more of this thread. My heart goes out to you KrisChen! I come from abuse too. You are so right about guilt, pain, and so many other things that come from it. My first giving of myself sexually was when I feared that I got pregnant and wanted someone to blame since I was not dating (sexual abuse in the home). I thought it would be my ticket away from the abuse. I will never forget that boy’s face full of hate and anger when I told him the truth and that I did not love him. I finally ran away from home and the case ended up in court. The home I ended up in made me tell him the truth when the social worker revealed it. I will carry it to my grave. I wish I could run into him so I could tell him how sorry I am and how wrong I was. I did not realize he really loved me and that I had been his first. I never got to know him or I would of known. He signed up for the navy so he could marry and support me despite the fact I was only 15 years old. One good thing was I did not end up pregnant. I worried much about it and if I would hate the baby because of how I ended up with one. What a way to decide to have sex of your own free will. It just shows you, what many have already spoken here sex can be manipulation.

It took many years (and probably more to come), attempting suicide twice, inflicting bodily injury to myself, lock-up and intense therapy and much love and support from my beloved to this very day and tomorrows yet to come for me to heal. The healing is not complete yet but I have come so far it is amazing. Now I do not pretend that is some other young girl named Mary that I feel sorry for. (I had separated myself by the child not being me the adult) I now accept it as my past and as part of who I am.

Now, on to something more pleasant… well at least in the end.

I met my beloved at church. At the time I was married. I was saved after my marriage. I only had this so it is know I was not unevenly yoked. It does not change God honoring marriage. I tried very hard to keep it but all the wrong ways. I even left church for a season because of being told that I was always at church or doing something for the church and never there, for him. <shakes head> I will cut to the chase. I was left with one toddler and a 6-month-old baby for a 17 year old, he had been seeing for almost a year. After the divorce I learned he fathered two children between my two sons. Later when the baby was about 2 years old this man told me, he married me because he felt sorry for me. I thought do not do me any favors!

Back to my beloved, we became friends first. I never expected more than a friendship from him. I did think he was good looking and had this walk that seemed to speak he had the world by the tail. He was the talk of the women of the church. lol Even when I was separated he nor I talked about a relationship beyond friendship. He helped me search the bible concerning divorce. He prayed with me. Even though I had biblical grounds for divorce I told “Mr. Cradle Robber” if he wanted to leave he would have to do it. Mr. C.R. could not get a divorce even by the world’s standards. There was nothing he could use against me. He had to come to me asking if I would agree on a divorce. I held out of a season but it was fruitless. I signed. The day it was final my beloved asked me out. I never knew how it worried my beloved when I offered to go back to Mr. C.R. when he called being nasty about me dating “before the ink was completely dry”. My beloved never showed it or told me till after we were married. He stood by my decision to do what I felt was right. My beloved was relieved that Mr. C.R. did not want reconciliation. Mr. C.R. just wanted to still control me. How sad for the pot is calling the kettle black. lol

It was only three weeks later my beloved asked me to marry him. We had been friends for 2 ½ years by this point.

I would like to say we never had sex while we dated before our wedding day. The first attempt, he stopped and said this is not right. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We ended up making love (yes I call it that even when it was outside the will of God) twice. Then we were in bible study and also heard a radio show about being chaste till marriage. The gentleman on the show said even if a couple had sex, they could honor God by putting it aside till the vows of the wedding. My beloved and I prayed together and made a vow. It was hard, real hard.

To make matters worse 5 days before our wedding, my 2 sons and I had to move in with my beloved because our home was being foreclosed due to Mr. C.R. not making his half of the house payment for far too long. That was the longest 5 days of my life. My beloved said cold showers were not helping. I now count it as a joy. Yes it was hard and at times miserable. Not to mention the whole church counted the days to the birth of our son (9months and 5 days).

Mr. C.R. married when Ms. Youngster turned of age. It was a grand wedding with a horse drawn carriage. It was everything that every little girl envisions, after hearing fairy tales of happily ever after. The divorce papers were drawn up before the year anniversary. It was over after barely a year.

I have a daughter out of four boys. It is a nightmare. I worry so much about her. She is only eleven years old but she looks about 15/16. I have had to correct the snack guy at the bowling alley after inappropriate comments were made. It is a shame that parent(s) must have such deep and detailed conversations with their children about sex at earlier and earlier ages. It is heart wrenching to see girls in middle school pregnant.

I am thankful that the school district that my children attend saw the need to bring in an abstinence program that the Catholic hospital system did/does for them.

BTW, why is it that girls today, look so much older and more developed?

I do not know if anyone is married besides Steve and myself, but a good book is The Act of Marriage. Also there is The Act of Marriage after 40.

I do hope that all that was said in this thread is a help to those who are young.

heheh, way to tie a million-page thread into one succint post

I've been wanting to add my two cents to this thread for a while now, but I didn't know how to go about doing it. Most of my thoughts on this subject are obviously slanted along the lines of LDS theology and I didn't want to come across too strongly and make anyone think that I look down on what they've said in the thread. Essentially, this is a difficult topic to discuss due to the emotion that is involved in the decisions people make regarding sex. I've decided to put in some information from a pamphlet I received as a youth in the church. I've tried to delete the more LDS portions of the advice so that it remains more non-denominational.

The words I quote here guided me through the difficult and tempting waters of High School, College and post-graduate education until my own marriage. I tried my best to adhere to them and as such entered into my marriage a 25 year old virgin. I think that's what most people would hope for in their own lives and in the lives of their children so here you go...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
D A T I N G

Date only those who have high standards and in whose company you can maintain your standards. A young man and a young woman on a date are responsible to help each other maintain their standards and to protect each other’s honor and virtue. You must honor the sanctity of the priesthood and of womanhood.

Do not date until you are at least 16 years old. Dating before then can lead to immorality, limit the number of other young people you meet, and deprive you of experiences that will help you choose an eternal partner. Not all teenagers need to date or even want to. Many young people do not date during their teen years because they are not yet interested, do not have opportunities, or simply want to delay forming serious relationships. However, good friendships can and should be developed at every age.

When you begin dating, go in groups or on double dates. Avoid going on frequent dates with the same person. Make sure your parents meet those you date. You may want to invite your dates to activities with your family. Plan dating activities that are positive and inexpensive and that will help you get to know each other. Do things that will help you and your companions maintain your self-respect and remain close to the Spirit of the Lord.

PHYSICAL INTIMACY

The sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife. God has commanded that sexual intimacy be reserved for marriage. When you obey God’s commandment to be sexually pure, you prepare yourself to make and keep sacred (marriage) covenants. You prepare yourself to build a strong marriage and to bring children into the world as part of a loving family. You protect yourself from the emotional damage that always comes from sharing physical intimacies with someone outside of marriage. Do not have any sexual relations before marriage, and be completely faithful to your spouse after marriage. Satan may tempt you to rationalize that sexual intimacy before marriage is acceptable when two people are in love. That is not true. In God’s sight, sexual sins are extremely serious because they defile the power God has given us to create life.

Before marriage, do not do anything to arouse the powerful emotions that must be expressed only in marriage. Do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not allow anyone to do that with you. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body.

In cultures where dating or courting is acceptable, always treat your date with respect, never as an object to be used for your lustful desires. Stay in areas of safety where you can easily control your physical feelings. Do not participate in talk or activities that arouse sexual feelings.

Homosexual activity is a serious sin. If you find yourself struggling with same-gender attraction, seek counsel from your parents and (ecclesiastical leader). They will help you. Victims of rape, incest, or other sexual abuse are not guilty of sin. If you have been a victim of any of these crimes, know that you are innocent and that God loves you. Seek your ecclesiastical leader’s counsel immediately so he can help guide you through the process of emotional healing. If you are tempted to commit sexual transgressions, seek help from your parents, your ecclesiastical leader, and friends you can trust. Pray to the Lord, who will help you resist temptation and overcome inappropriate thoughts and feelings.

If you have committed sexual transgressions, begin the process of repentance now so you can find inner peace and have the full companionship of the Spirit. Seek the Lord’s forgiveness. (If you are finding it difficult to feel forgiven by the Lord) Talk with your ecclesiastical leader. He will help you obtain the forgiveness available to those who truly repent.

The Savior gave His life for us and suffered for our sins. This great sacrifice is called the Atonement. Through the Atonement, you can receive forgiveness and be cleansed from your sins when you repent. When you do what is necessary to receive forgiveness, you will know for yourself the power of the Atonement and the love God has for you. You will feel the peace of the Lord Jesus Christ, which will bring you great strength.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hope this is of value to someone.

I'm sure it is Joel, thanks for contributing

I am going to copy and past that in a document. I hope you do not mind Joel but I need to fix a few of the seek whom parts to reflect the titles and members of my church. I am going to give this to each of my children.

Of course I don't mind. I'm going to post a link to a pdf version of the pamphlet it was taken from feel free to browse it and share whatever you think is valuable with your children.

The pamphlet is called "For the Strength of Youth"

I am certain that there are parts of it that are probably very LDS-specific, but there are other areas that can be valuable to people of any faith.

Thank you Joel.

I am trying to remember everything that was covered in this thread. So bare with me if this was covered already.

Under the scripture Matt 5: 28
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have heard it said recently that a teenage boy or man that masturbates is committing adultery. I am assuming this was said (heard this on radio) is because some female was the object of their desire. This I can understand.

I have few questions on this matter.

• 1. Is it better for a boy or a single man to masturbate than to have a sexual relation with a female?
• 2. Is it a sin when a married male masturbates while thinking about his wife whom is not available to him physically (out of town, etc)?
• 2 a. What if she is near physically but husband feels he cannot (whether real or imagined) interupt what the wife is doing (studying, reports for work, etc)?

I have had some "interesting" (???) conversations lately.

The young unmarried male (question 1) is of interest to me because I have held the view that it is better for my sons to masturbate than to have a sexual relation if they could not control their urges. I do not want to give them a green light to sin. Of course I hope they heard me say "if you cannot control your urges". I know sin is sin but feel the fall out (result of the sin/act) here on earth is far less than having a sexual relation with a female without the benefit of marriage.

Let me preface this by saying that no one has to agree with me and I am in no way saying that anyone is in danger of hellfire and damnation – repentence is always possible.

The LDS church has no paid clergy as such members are called upon to take responsibility for the various roles that a paid clergyman would assume. I work with the leader of our congregation (Bishop) as one of his counselor’s. My specific responsibilities in the congregation are to oversee the youth programs. I conduct semi-annual interviews with all of the youth from the ages of 12 to 18. These interviews are to check on their progess with spiritual matters, personal goals, and if needed to help them come closer to Christ. Needless to say, I encounter questions like question #1 all the time.

In the LDS church we deem the Law of Chastity (the Lord’s injunction to remain morally pure) to encompass abstaining from sexual relations and anything “like unto” it outside the bonds of marriage. So my counsel to youth generally involves asking them whether or not the behavior in question is “like unto” sex or not. When the problem is masturbation, they generally answer yes. Once they come to that conclusion themselves I talk to them about all of the things that can arouse inappropriate feelings – masturbation, petting, pornography – all of which are no-nos.

The world may have its norm; but followers of Christ need to have a different one. It may be considered normal by the people of the world to masturbate; the Lord’s standard is a higher plane where that is not done.

We should deal with the powerful emotions and temptations through faith in Christ by denying ourselves these things outside of the proper marriage relationship – not by giving into them just a little. To give in, if only just a little, is to start down a dangerous path of gratification regardless of what the Lord has declared. Sexual relations with your spouse can truly be a divine and holy experience and at the same time intensely gratifying. We should never make something that is by nature holy to be unholy in order to satisfy personal desires.

Personally, when I think about what sex truly is, I am awed. Essentially, the act of sex, which is the means of procreation, is the closest we come to working in harmony with God. It is through sex that God has granted us measly humans the power to create life. It should not be toyed with, mocked, or engaged in outside of the relationship of marriage as established by the Lord. So when I am tempted or when I was tempted prior to marriage, that’s what I thought about, “Am I mocking God through this behavior? Am I making what is holy to be something unholy?” and in most instances this was enough to keep me chaste.

I agree mostly with Joel

Here's a rather lengthy discussion we've had here in the past regarding masturbation:

http://www.praisecafe.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000131

There's really no scripture we can find in the Bible denouncing masturbation specifically, in most cases like King David and Bathsheba or Samson it probably would have been preferrable to what actually did transpire. We are sexual beings, God expects purity, but judging from scripture He understands we fail and seems to be more tolerant of sexual sin than some others... David and Solomon and Samson were all judged in God's eyes to be 'men after His heart', yet all 3 weren't any more sexually responsible than today's typical NBA star.

Check that thread out Lizzy (and Joel), I welcome input there

This is the last I’ll say on the topic.

I read through the old thread you linked to and noticed the following scripture was missing in any of the scriptural reasons against masturbation. In my opinion this is the closest the Bible comes to direct condemnation of the act of masturbation.

Timothy 3:1-5
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It’s clear that Paul doesn’t have a high opinion of any of these things and deems them to be sinful. Among them is the statement “lovers of their own selves” which can be interpreted to be either to be talking about masturbation (self love) or homosexuality. He also mentions that men shall be without “natural affection” which again could be homosexuality or masturbation. And lastly he condemns those who are “lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God” Masturbation is, simply put, a selfish sexual act, especially when it is engaged in by one spouse in a marriage exclusive of the other. As Christians (funny that most here wouldn’t consider me to be Christian) we cannot allow our actions to solely be intended as a means of pleasure.

I don’t have sex with my wife just because it feels good, that would be terribly selfish. I have sex with her primarily because I love her, it feels (emotionally and physically) even better and is far more satisfying when love and not gratification is the primary driver behind sex within a marriage. Masturbation, I contend, has less to do with love and lust than it has to do with gratification of a natural sexual urge. As Paul counsels Timothy “…from such turn away.”

He also includes 'incontinent' - which normally means that someone doesn't have control of their bowel or bladder function - I don't think the scripture is necessarily outlining all sin, as incontinence surely can't be considered sinful, it's just one natural progression of aging. Neither can 'fierce' necessarily mean something bad. I'm not really sure what he means in totality with that scripture... some things are obviously bad, some a bit puzzling.

It is said all sin can be boiled down into 3 areas, 'pride of life' one of them - 'lovers of self' can be seen as fitting into that area. It might be a bit of a stretch to say he meant masturbation, more than likely he meant 'putting oneself before God' which can cover a multitude of areas.

Tell me, I'm not married and don't yet have any experience with this, but it is said masturbation is as high after marriage as before. Is it considered sinful in the LDS church after marriage too? I won't get graphic here, but there's other variations... at what point does it become sinful or ok?

Any sexual activity without your spouse would be considered sinful and certain sexual activities (bondage and anything that would be degrading) even with your spouse would be considered sinful. Personally, I completely refrain from personal gratification. Now this is certainly TMI, but my wife takes care of any and all of my physical needs and I believe I do the same. Nuff said?

The LDS church would consider it sinful but not on the same level as say adultery or something like that. Personally, if you need to masturbate after you're married, you and your spouse should seek counseling. To me it indicates that one or the other partner is not fully satisfied with the intimacy within the marriage.

Or it could mean the spouses are apart for work-related reasons (soldiers in Iraq for instance)among other reasons.

Idda know... it's better than adultery or fornication, even if it's not the perfect will of God... woulda been a thousand times better if those priests had done it instead of what they actually did I still think it's a bit of a stretch to think Paul was discussing masturbation in the above scripture

Don't know what Paul meant for sure either but do believe loving oneself more than God as was mentioned as a possible interpretation, to be far worse than masturbation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">3:1 But understand this, that in the last days difficult1 times will come. 3:2 For people2 will be lovers of themselves,3 lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, savage, opposed to what is good, 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, loving pleasure rather than loving God. 3:5 They will maintain the outward appearance4 of religion but will have repudiated its power. So avoid people like these.5 (2Timothy 3:1-5 NET ) [www.netbible.com]

1tn Or perhaps, “dangerous,” “fierce.”
2tn Grk “men”; but here a[nqrwpoi (anqrwpoi) is generic, referring to both men and women.
3tn Or “self-centered.” The first two traits in 2 Tim 3:2 and the last two in 3:4 are Greek words beginning with the root “lovers of,” and so bracket the list at beginning and end.
4tn Or “form.”
sn Outward appearance. Paul’s contrast with power in 3:5b shows that he regards this “form” to be outward, one of appearance rather than reality (cf. 1 Cor 4:19-20; 1 Thess 1:5).
5tn Grk “and avoid these,” with the word “people” implied. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For the KJV I picked up the Dake's bible I have. This is from the notes of 30 Characteristics of Wicked Men at the end of 2 Timothy.

Incontinent - GR> akrates, no control of appetites and passions. Only here [2Timothy 3:3]

In 2 Timothy 3:4 "lovers of pleasure", Dake states this to mean sensual gratification is their god.

I have not made it over to the other thread yet. I will try before the weekend it out. Please no one hold your breath. My calendar is so full I thought there was three days for Saturday and Sunday. lol

Joel, I can agree and at the same time disagree with you that if a spouse is masturbating then the couple need counseling.

If a spouse (whether it is the wife or husband) is masturbating while the other is availlable then I think it is wrong. It takes away from the relationship. It is more about self then. I do not buy the excuses... well he/she was busy working on reports (grading papers, packing lunches, make up your own and put in here). If the two are in the same house then there is no reason that one could not take the other by the hand (or do something else to get their attention) or ask them if they could spare 1/2 hour to make love and connect physically.

I do not think that all love making needs to be a grand production. Sometimes just connection is enough. It meets physical, emotional, and spiritual (small s... our spirit) needs. We do not always (hardly ever here. lol ) eat a 7 course meal. Sometimes the fast take out is all we get to nourish our bodies. Most of the time it is 3 square with meat and potatoes. Then there is the white table cloth, candles, many course meal with deep sweet succulent dessert. No matter what type of meal it was that you sat down for it nourished your body. I believe that no matter if it was fast drive through, typical standard , or the "we have all night the kids are gone for the night" love making that it nourishes the marriage and relationship of the couple.

When it comes to being apart for a length of time it would be permissive will but allowable in my opinion. It then comes down to what is in the heart of the one doing it and how the couple feel about this.

Just a quick add on before I head to bed.

Once we are married it ceases to be about self. You are joined with another. Everything needs to be reviewed first by what God's word and will is and then what the other half of you wants, thinks, etc.

It just hit me. If you cannot make other relationships work what makes one think they can make a marriage work. Marriage is meeting in the middle, loving another as yourself, having a love that sees the good, overlooking the bad (sin) and seeing the potential of the other. Is it no wonder that Christ said that we were his bride. He is the other half of us.

God is so very amazing. I need to get a automatic mouth closure. because my mouth sure hangs open in awe a great deal of the time lately.

I leave with this from Dr. Henry Cloud Ph.D. in his article "Blocks To Love" http://www.cloudtownsend.com/

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why is this? There are many reasons, but they all come down to a basic orientation in ourselves towards ourselves. In other words, ever since Adam, we have been basically looking out for number one, and that is the surest way to destroy a relationship. We have a tendency to think of ourselves first instead of the relationship itself. We are trying to get what we want instead of seeing also the needs of others. And as a result of this self-orientation we destroy all chances of getting what we want and need, which in the final analysis is always love.
.....

Summary
Love is not an easy thing to accomplish in this life. In fact, it is so difficult because of our particular inclinations to do the very things we just talked about. There is a part of all of us that tends to try to please ourselves instead of accomplish love, and in the process we lose the love that we wanted in the first place. Remember, love does not "just happen." It takes work. And part of the work that you will have to do is to avoid the kinds of blocks to love mentioned above. Good luck, and God Bless as you "love one another" as He has loved you. (John 13:34)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

I figured that my comment on masturbation within marriage would be a little controversial. Let me put it another way so you can all understand where I'm coming from.

In my opinion and according to my understanding of the holy writ, to be chaste means no sexual relations prior to marriage and complete fidelity to ones spouse after marriage. Complete fidelity would include masturbation as that is not a sexual relation with your spouse, but rather with yourself. Sexual relations should and ought to be maintained between a husband and wife together and not exclusively of one another.

Joel, why do you say your post is contraversy. I am the one who asked the question. I have had mixed feelings on the matter as can be seen by my posts.

Everyone would do well to never do anything unless it was with love and within God's will but "all fall short of the Glory of God."

One should have fidelty in a marriage relationship. If anyone has been the victim of their spouse having an affair they will tell you how painful it was. It tears not just at the seams but at the very heart of the material of marriage.

Is masturbation being unfaithful? Yes I believe it can be. I also believe that it is not under certain conditions with the agreement and consent of both in the marriage. Once one has entered into a loving physically relationship in marriage the desire at times is very great. It is not a light switch that can be flipped off and on. It is always on but dim, then the voltage gets higher and it bright burning. It is never off in my opinion. It (making love in marriage)is more than just pleasure. It is a physical connection and so much more that defies words. There are times that it as spiritual, emotional as it is physical. Distance and time do not turn off the switch.

The desire for the connection even if in the mind's eye revisited can carry one till the time they can be together again.

I can see that there is really no clear answer when it comes to within the marriage.

As for the unmarried at times it is the lessor of two evils. I would much rather my sons show great self control and be in the will of God. If by masturbating they can avoid the pitfall of having a sexual physically relationship with a girl then I would rather they masturbated. You reap what you sow. The seed they sow might come to fruit in nine months. That fruit will need to be cared and tended to till being ripe.