Romans 1:22
"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools."

To say that Paul did not specifically talk about homosexuality in this chapter tells me that the discussion will go no-where. We cannot glaze over the specific and obvious and have an intelligent discussion.

You tell me Paul is not specifically speaking to homosexuality in this chapter:

Romans 1: 18-32

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

And to use the argument that we know more now than those who wrote the Bible lets us know that this discussion will go no where as well. The Bible is the word handed down straight from the mouth of God.

Do the men who wrote this article presume to know more than God? I seriously have to question the credibility of anyone who claims to have outsmarted Him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As Christians, we have to take our responsibility not only as bible readers but as people who have knowledge about the human nature based on modern scientific research. In the same way that you can't choose your skin or eye color, you can't choose your sexual identity. Homosexuality is a part of your personality. There is no evidence that this personality can be changed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is one of the least intellegent remarks I have heard from someone claiming to be following the direction of "science". He's contradicting himself. Eye color is genetic. Yet he goes right behind himself and says that sexuality is personality after comparing sexuality to something that is genetic. Eye color has nothing to do with personality...he could have at least made it sound better if he were going to attempt to go up against the only infallable word ever written (being God's word!).

Furthermore, the Bible DOES clearly condemn the act of homosexual sex. This guy needs to go back to whatever school he got his degree at and get his money back; he sounds like a fool.

I agree, aleina. We need to be more loving and reach out to people with open arms -- yes, even homosexuals. HOWEVER, the BIBLE says that when we see someone caught in a sin, we are to confront them with it in love, and show them where the Bible says it is sin.

But if they are unwilling to believe the Bible -- where it states in black and white that the sin is a sin -- or if they try to rationalize their way around it, then they cannot be forgiven. Forgivness comes only after admission of the sin.

It's educated Christians like the man who wrote that article that help people find ways to rationalize their sins that hinder God from moving in the way He would like to move. In the Bible it says that if you cause someone else to stumble, you may as well have a millstone tied around your neck and be thrown into the ocean.

Justification by rationalization allows us to put blinders on to avoid the truth; this creates avenues for us to stumble over and over and over and over...

Right now I can't add to what Allen and Michelle have said. It seems to come down to selective interpretation. Here is my stance:

A person must beleive EVERY word in the bible or you can just toss the whole thing. There is a modern movement to taking "just what we feel applies" and chucking the rest. Just like evolution/creation. Good God fearing people bend over backwards to fit evolution in with what the bible says. I am sorry but it says Creation took six days and I beleive it. I don't understand it, but I beleive it. If we cannot believe that, where it says "in the beginning" then how can we believe stuff that tells us to quash our human nature? When it comes to the Bible, how you start believing is how you will finish. If you doubt or question Genesis, you will doubt and question a lot of uncomfortable scripture. (just a little side trip, MOST scripture that delineates right and wrong is not comfortable!) It is our heart that is the root of the problem, it says, and I quoted it earlier that "out of the hearts of men come evil thoughts, desires etc." We don't like to deal with that because it lays the blame sqarely on our own shoulders. We want our sins to be explained away by science, then we are not responsible for them. There is not one finite shred of proof that this is an unavoidable circumstance. Psychology in probably the most inexact science (if it can be called science) out there. It's whole basis it founded and grounded on peoples feelings and emotions, nothing concrete.

In conclusion if we suppose that Homosexuality is unavoidable and is not somthing that a person can be healed from we have done several things.

1. We have opened the door to the allowance of all crime as we know it, because there are reticent genes present in most serial killers and violent offenders. There are reticent genes present in people who become addicted easily.

2. We have ultimately denied the Deity of the Godhead (Father, Son, Spirit) It all goes back to, do we truly believe what is written, or not...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aleina.

I have counseled several people who were struggling or had come out of their lifestyle. It is not permanant and God can heal. If you have not read the article that I linked please do so. I emailed back and forth with that pastor before I hosted his article, he is genuine. One man I talked to struggled with images in his mind while he was with his wife. One young man (20 this year) came out of the lifestyle and is serving in my church. That is real data, not some educated man's opinion, I don't mean to bash the writer(s) of that article you posted, but my real life experience has much more contradictory information.

Keep contending for the truth!

God Can!

I would like to say that my previous post was in no way meant to be any kind of personal attack. It just pains me that "educated" clergy will bend the truth to fit their circumstances. They can cloak it in "responsibility" "adult behaviour" "faithfulness" "life partners" etc. but it is still what it is...

Anyways, I am the first to admit I can't cast any stones, I've got a rather large tree stump in my own eye . There is deliverance from all things, or God isn't God.

I see homosexuality no different than I see those who engage in pre marital relations.
I could not hate those people for their acts.
The Human body has been redused from a temple to a tool for pleasure to be used and to use and that is horrid. We are sinners but we are also God's children all of us and Christ walked with the prostitutes and others who lie with sin and loved them still.So I shall love them also and pray for them. Never condemn them I would then be condemnong myself.

We are not to judge. That's correct.

And welcome to the board Indie!

Can't agree more with what Steve and Allen said...and I especially like what Indie said (Hello, Indie and welcome.)

I see homosexuality as a sin no different from any other sin (some of which I engage in myself unfortunately, I am not perfect). There are no big sins, no little sins. Jesus died for ALL sins. But we do have to confess the sin before the sin will be wiped clean...so we need to share the TRUTH.

When I sin, I usually know I'm doing so before hand, during, or right afterwards. (that's bad, I know, but I still fall into temptation too) But I have had friends point out to me (in love) that I was doing something against God's word, and I hadn't even realized it. Those are true Christian friends; the ones who can help you realize that you're hurting God and yourself without making you feel like they think they are better or more holy.

The ones who make you feel like crud by talking down to you are the ones who sometimes push you farther away instead of pulling you back to God.

That's a little off the subject, but I believe it applies to any sin. As it's allready been said in this thread several times: love the sinner, hate the sin. We're supposed to help each other in our walks. By sugar coating the truth to keep from hurting someone's feelings/damaging their self esteem or trying not to damage our image as modern and intellegent, we compromise our faith. I believe that's what the "man of God" who said that the Bible was outdated has done.

I've tried to type what I'm trying to say almost five times now, and it just doesn't sound right. I can't find the right words, so maybe I'll come back to it later.

On another note: Why can't you love the person for the person and not because of their sexuality? I haven't done my research--looked anything up just yet, but I don't see why it's such a big deal to God. Why does it matter?

Read Steve's lengthy posts in the middle of page 2 for some insight into why God hates sin. Hopefully we do love the person for the person... that's the point made by most everyone who's posted.

Oh yeah, I rarely fall into temptation...

I usually take a flying leap

Not all people read the bible LITERALLY word for word. I wish you could accept that. How do you KNOW what way to believe is the RIGHT one? I won't post anymore on this topic since as you said this discussion isnt going anywhere...

At what point does someone go from accepting what is written to believing they have greater understanding than the writers?

I could say a lot of things about what you and Steve posted but I don't because I respect your opinion. I dont believe the way you do - does that make me less of a christian??? Apparently it does

I hope what I write isn't taken as a personal attack, it isn't meant that way.

Write what you are thinking... open discussion is good. Nobody has the keys to heaven down here, I believe most of us will be surprised about who actually makes it

Nobody here has accused anyone here of being less of a Christian. Nothing I've said was meant as a personal attack. But I believe, and I will say this even if it steps on toes, that the Bible is true, every word in it is true, and if you don't believe what the Bible says, you don't believe God. And if you don't believe God, then how can you love him? Love is about trust...

I'm not presuming to condemn anyone here...I may be the one who has it all wrong; I'm just sharing what I believe according to the Bible, because I believe that if you can't take the word of God at face value, what are you supposed to believe? I don't go for buffet style Christianity where you take what you like and leave the rest; I think someone allready mentioned that above...it's true. You either believe it or you don't (in my opinion).

Again, I could be the one who has it all wrong. None of my opinions are fallable. I just believe that the opinions that I have based on the word that I believe to be infallable are pretty close to the truth. That's my belief; I'm free to have it, as you are to have yours...

And Ashley, I don't know how more clear we can make it: Love the sinner, hate the sin.

I don't hate homosexuals. I have had homosexual friends. I have been just as caring towards them as I would have been to a straight friend; I'm no homophobic. I've gone out for a girls night with a lesbian, we had facials done and painted each others nails. My last day at the job that I worked with her at, she gave me a boquet of daisys. I didn't think she was hitting on me. I thanked her and hugged her. I miss her company; we just parted ways...but I never thought of her as less of a person.

I knew a gay guy who was the most funny person in the whole wide world. I dyed his hair for him...for fun. We listened to backstreet boys together. I had a little crush on him...

But I disaprove of their lifestyle. There is a difference between hate and disapproval.

I know couples who are straight, unmarried, and have had premarital sex. I don't approve of that either, but I don't treat them badly.

I masturbate. I have friends who think that's wrong, but they love me anyway. I believe (despite our many discussions) that it is wrong, and I really do try to break the addiction (that's what it is, is an addiction)...but I haven't beat it yet. I disapprove of myself. I am harder on myself than I was on my homosexual friends. I am angry at myself for the many sins I commit. I wasn't even angry at them...how could that possibly mean that I hate them or don't accept them as they are???

I am a sinner, no better than any other sinner. I screw up. I get back up and I try. I encourage others to do so as well...is that wrong?

Aleina

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dont believe the way you do - does that make me less of a christian???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NO and no matter what that is not for me to decide! I am in many ways more conservative than most Christians. There are things though that I do believe that rattle some cages in the ranks of the conservative. whoopie! I strive to take the bible as litteraly as it was written, as often as possible, in the language it was written in. Every time we translate it, it can only mean as much as our understanding of the original languages. No, I don't know Greek and Hebrew, but I have access to lexicons and concordances and the writings of the studied scriptural authorities of the ages. Does that make me "better?" I doubt it! In my own experience it has brought me into a close relationship with God. It has worked between US. Not to say that is how He wishes your realtionship to be crafted.

I am certainly not about browbeating ANYONE with whom I disagree. I have such passion for this subject and my heart litterally aches to see society getting duped by the enemy. I know that when I get wound up about something I get real high on my soap-box and post stuff that is tremendously long and difficult to get through, thats just me. I have never been the one who was terrible consise or had the short answer. You should see my poor wife when I get going!!!

The enemy is afoot and he is all about lies. The only power he has over saved Christians is to get them to believe a lie, then make life changing decisions based on that lie. Psychologists and psychiatrists unilaterally agree that children's personalities are crafted by their parents by the age of five. Many factors go into what those kids see. Is the father present? Is the Mother dominate or Godly. Is the parents relationship edifying or combative, does the chiild get read to and held, does the child get proper touching and affection from both parents? The list is infinite and it all goes to make up the psychology that is "us." As we all know that just because it worked a certain way with one child it won't necesarily with all. (The Bible tells us that we should "train up a child in the way that they should go and they will never depart") That doesn't mean that if we think a child is a budding homosexual we should encourage that. On the flipside we should not abuse either. One modern example that most Christians don't struggle interpreting, but society has fallen completely for is the lie of abortion. Once the folks decieved by the enemy convinced the worlds courts that infanticide was ok look what happened. God's Truth never changed. "Thou shlat not kill is still unedited, but we fell under that power of satans lie, even as Eve and Adam did in the Garden. A lie has great power when we perceive it as truth It can change the world. Another example of a powerful lie. Blonde hair and blue eyes makes a superior race and they will take over the world, millions of lives were lost because a nation believed that.(Hitler) I wish I had all the right answers, alas I do not. I only have Scripture, that should be enough though, right?

Even if we never agree, and I pray that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you, even if it is not what I am typing, Then we must absolutely strive to agree on the healing power of God! This is that same God that healed muscular tissue in an instant, repaired sinew and tendons, rebuilt neural pathways where there were none, and many times raised the dead back to life, up to and including His own son! If God can do that then He can certainly free someone from the bondage of sin, whether you beleive it is choice or genetic!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dont believe the way you do - does that make me less of a christian???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NO that makes this a wonderful discussion between Christians who are struggling to stay on the narrow path!

God bless you!

This has been an interesting and surprising thread to find here. Thank you to all who participated in it. I'm glad to find contriversal topics discussed here.

I'm truly amazed that a church would actualy buy, create and maintain a website called godhatesfags.com

That one had me sitting at my desk in shock for quite a while. I'm still not quite sure that I actually belive what I saw there.

I'm glad to read here that some people still believe that we are all gods children and it's not wise to cast the first stone.

I have a number of gay friends, and many are as Christian as anyone I know. Moreso in some ways.

We are all god's children.... an excellent thing to always remember.

Thanks.

That site is just so out there that I gotta believe there's a strong chance it's a parody site. If not, then the Hitlers of the world are still possible and real.

God doesn't make junk / The choices we make as adults are our own / Love your neighbor as yourself / Faith, Hope, and Love - and the greatest of these is Love / Love God with all your heart, body, and soul

- you can't go wrong doing the above.

What we have to remember is that there are extremeists in every facet of life. The KKK call themselves Christian and think they are doing God a service. If that site is for real then we have to pray harder that evil will not win out here. We know ultimately, satan is a loser.

For every ounce of sin there are two of grace.

God is Good /