</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[QUOTE]I won't believe that God would create these people only to condem them as we may. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">UKC - I believe amongst all the Christian world it's only us non-Christian Mormons who believe that God has provided a way for those who will never hear of Christ in this life to be saved. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are dead wrong Joel.

Mainstream Christianity does not necessitate belief in a particular way that people have never heard the word of god might be saved, but there are certainly beliefs out there. Perhaps the closest to the Mormon belief in a confrontation in the sprit world is accepting the possibility that every person may be confronted with the claims of the gospel at the moment of death. Others believe that there is simply no such thing as someone who has never heard the gospel. His fingerprints are on the firmament after all. And still others believe that there is some sort of special dispensation for them just as there might be for miscarried babies. The claims of salvation and hellfire always specify to those who “hear these words” so we have no promise of either heaven or hell to those who never hear them. But we know that god is righteous so it leans further away from hell. And a final interpretation of that last one is that you might be judged upon the state of your heart and whether or not you may have accepted Christ given the chance. It is perhaps a bit Calvinistic, but still applies

Of course speaking of Calvinism I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that perspective which necessitates that god chose beforehand who would accept him and who would reject him and that therefore anyone who does not hear the claims of the gospel is clearly not elect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GypsyGirl:
[qb] Why not? He made me an alcoholic…

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok ryan i will admit that you have some great points but...God did not make you an alcoholic....God never came to earth when you experienced alcohol for the first time and told you to try it or he will kill you....you brought that upon yourself.

Jesus didn't convert the Centurion because he was a Roman and Jesus came solely to the Jews.

I'm sorry, but if Jesus' life didn't have anything to do with conversion to Christianity, then I guess I'm a little confused. I mean what was that sermon on the Mount about anyway if not to let the Jews no that with Christ there was a new and better way.

Interesting that you take some words in the Bible and give them more importance just because they were uttered by Jesus (red text). I thought the whole Bible was intended to be the Word of God. And y'all get mad when a Mormon dares question the accuracy of the translation - pure hypocrisy.

I do agree though that the Bible is clear on Marriage = Man + Woman
and Sex outside of Marriage is a sin

I guess some of the early Apostles just wanted to go out of their way to make a point.

I'm confused here I guess. There was a lot more going on in Sodom and Gomorrha than mant to man sex. I know that Lot was asked to bring the men out of his house so those who were gathered might know them. Am I being told that if man to man sex wasn't happening inspite of all the other forms of behavior the cities would not have been out of God's favor? There were lots of men and women there. God asked for only one good person (man) to be found if I remember correctly and the city would be spared. So, inspite of all the peoiple there it was strictly men having sex with men that displeased God and caused the cities destruction.

A year or so ago one of our members came out here so to speak. At the time of those postings Allen had gone back to the meaning of abomination at that time. He was certainly not condoning homosexuality but merely wanted to be fair and inform all of us here. I don't remember in what post it was and if I did I don't know how to put something from one post into another anyhow. If anybody cares to back track you can see that abomination and it's translation back then certainly doesn't mean what saying that today does.

Juss, you need to reread Ryan's words. He has never taken a drink in his life. Armed with the understanding that all/most of his family are practicing alcoholics and that he had the genes that predispose him to being alcoholic (genetic alcoholism) he made it a point NOT to drink alcohol. And, yes, since God assigned him to people with alcoholic genes, he did make Ryan an alcoholic. You are right though, if Ryan had chosen to drink that would have made him a practicing alcoholic and yes it would have been his fault NOT God's.

Using that as an example in this particular thread. Many people refuse to believe that homosexuality isn't a choice that people make. Like Ryan believing that he is an alcoholic even though he's never drank alcohol, he has no choice as to whether he is an alcoholic or not. Gay people also believe they have no choice either. I guess my point is, by choosing not to drink Ryan's life is enhanced and he's better off that way. Keep in mind he can't change being alcoholic. Using this line of thought. A homosexual may choose not to practice homosexuality. That doesn't change the fact that they are still homosexual and that all the grief that homosexuals face on a daily basis still happens to them. The major difference being they are now alone while living this daily hell. There is nobody that can truely understand and help them through this. I won't believe God intended for anybody to have to live this way.

BTW everybody, why is it that with a homosexual that label always seems to be all they are or what they are? Introductions are often made "this is my gay friend" comments are made like " I have gay friends." I never hear anybody introduce someone as "my heterosexual friend" or "I have heterosexual friends." What's with that?

Joel, if you look at the origional translation of the bible the word HOMOSEXUAL is not present. So whatever versiony ou are reading that uses that word, well whoever translated it took liberties.

Ryan, thank you, i don't expect people to agree with my lifestyle but to not judge me or abandon me because of it.

Evereyone, i have a very large conscience and when i am considering doing something if i choose the wrong thing when i do it my guilt lets me know.but i do not feel this guilt, God has not put this guilt in my heart. In fact all he does is filmy heart with love.

Whew run away thread!!!!!!!!


OK lots of points

1. Ryan I totaly agree with you aboutyour genetic disposition. Each and every one of us has a "sin pull" on our lives. Mine is visual, I struggle sometimes daily. (operative word being struggle) That pull in each of our lives may not be noticed for years until you are exposed to the temptation. Ryan you deduced yours without having to actually experience it. What ever type of sinful desire each of us have cannot be overcome with God's help and it is our duty to keep bringing it back to Him to deal with, NOT release ourselves to its embrace. Ryan seaks about alcohol, would he be justified in saying bah! to heck with it, I was born this way and went and bought a bottle of liquor? Would I be justified in stopping by the store and getting porn? No, but neither does God expect perfection, that is why he gave us the vehicle of repentance.

Juss - To point out scripture that shows a person is involved in sin is not judging them. To condemn them to hell or to say that they are a bad person because of the sin in their life IS judgement. We are actually required to gracefully reproof each other about the sins in our lives. Could we turn a blind eye to a murderer, it is a sin. We are jst to tell them the truth in love, and let them know that God is there for them to turn to.

Gypsy - Hi and welcome to the forum. Glad you are so bold as to tackle such a volitlie subject. as far as homosexual sin yes God comdemns it. Does that make it worse than any other, no, people are the ones who do that, no God. The bible does also speak about lesbian sex in Romans.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Romans1:24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God simply does't want us to let go and wallow in sin, sure sexual sin is a blast, in the short term but is just as effectivly seperates us from God as does murder, lying and Idol worship. I don't know you and certainly will never condemn you (that wole plank/eye thing) I do though want to encourage you just like Paul did. When he told the church at Corinth this

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> 1Corinthians 9:24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Christianity is about stepping up the the plate and taking life to a higher level of intensity,some of that involves denying some of the desires of our flesh.

(Just a quick note Gypsy you tried to correct Joel about the word homosexual in the bible, actually it is in there and the word in the Greek, the original language of the New Testament is "Arsenokoites" and it means homosexual but it does lean more toward the male offense.)


Bottom line all our best efforts are like filthy rags (isaiah) but it is about those efforts nonetheless!


God bless ya and again Gypsy welcome

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by New_Era_20:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GypsyGirl:
[qb] Why not? He made me an alcoholic…

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok ryan i will admit that you have some great points but...God did not make you an alcoholic....God never came to earth when you experienced alcohol for the first time and told you to try it or he will kill you....you brought that upon yourself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You kindof missed the boat on this one NE

I have never had a drop of achohol. I mentioned that in my first post. What i do have is the genetic perdisposition to achoholism.

Similarly god never game to earth and made GypsyGirl copulate with other women. That's a choice just as my drinking is a choice

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
Jesus didn't convert the Centurion because he was a Roman and Jesus came solely to the Jews.

I'm sorry, but if Jesus' life didn't have anything to do with conversion to Christianity, then I guess I'm a little confused. I mean what was that sermon on the Mount about anyway if not to let the Jews no that with Christ there was a new and better way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Sermon on the Mount? You thought that was evangelical? He was talking primarily to people who were already his followers! Nonetheless I still need to reiterate myself. Jesus did evangelism “lay down your nets and follow me” “my yolk is light” etc. But it was not his primary purpose. Thus the analogy to the lepers: Jesus healed lepers, but that was not the point. The point was to pave the way for us to follow

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Interesting that you take some words in the Bible and give them more importance just because they were uttered by Jesus (red text). I thought the whole Bible was intended to be the Word of God. And y'all get mad when a Mormon dares question the accuracy of the translation - pure hypocrisy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You didn’t read my post too carefully did you? I listed three things you will notice about all of the references to homosexuality. And then I noted that it is possible to slip through the cracks of those verses if you have a motive to. Not that you should, only that you could.

No, I do not give more importance to the words of God on earth as opposed to God in Heaven the whole bible is inerrant. But my personal opinion does not chance the fact that some people don’t feel that way, nor the fact that it is worth noting because some people feel it is.

I also wonder where you got the idea that I get mad when a Mormon dares question the accuracy of translation. It’s hardly on topic but if you would like to ask me some questions in another thread I would be glad to help you out. After all I myself have questioned the accuracy of the bible rather thoroughly in a search to make my faith my own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by UnconventionalKrisChen:
... That doesn't change the fact that they are still homosexual and that all the grief that homosexuals face on a daily basis still happens to them. The major difference being they are now alone while living this daily hell. There is nobody that can truely understand and help them through this. I won't believe God intended for anybody to have to live this way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn’t know you had to be tied to someone romantically in order for them to help you through a struggle in your life. Sadly it rings true in many ways when speaking about a Homosexual and a church body. There are few people who will take the time to get to know them and support them in what they are going through. Sometimes it seems that their only friends in the world are their homosexual partners. I would assert that it is THAT which isn’t God’s intent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
BTW everybody, why is it that with a homosexual that label always seems to be all they are or what they are? Introductions are often made "this is my gay friend" comments are made like " I have gay friends." I never hear anybody introduce someone as "my heterosexual friend" or "I have heterosexual friends." What's with that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Adjectives are used to describe people in introductions only when they are uncommon. We don’t introduce people as heterosexual because most people you meet are assumed to be heterosexual. I would hope that if someone like GypsyGirl is introduced as “My Bi-Sexual Friend” it would be done in the same sense that I might introduce Matthew as “My Mormon Friend” or that you may introduce Chewbacca as “My Wookie Friend”

Arghh... leave for a day and 3 pages go whooshing by

I'll preface my remarks up front that I agree 100% with the plank-eye theory - I've got a plank, a couple one-by-fours and a sheet of paneling in just my right eye and it's the good one So please don't take my comments as condemnation of anyone's sin, I've got my own to deal with, it's just not the topic of this thread

I gotta say I agree with Joel's posts nearly 100% and if a couple of you weren't so defensive you might re-read them and see there's no condemnation in them, only a pretty straight-forward cut-n-paste of scripture.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by GypsyGirl:
Joel - Do you choose who you fall in love with? no, i didn't think so. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, of course we do... we're not animals run uncontrollably by our emotions, likes, loves and lusts. That's a very immature way to run our lives, don't you think?

We all have differences in what we consider attractive, but love is something that grows as we nurture it, not as a run-away train we cannot put the brakes on. Love is a choice, it's a verb, a word of action, something we feed, not something that just is. That's for fairytales.

Again, I'm just saying... I choose to love my fiance, but it's an emotion I can control by either feeding it or starving it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ryan:
The bible mentions homosexuality in several places (as Joel has lovingly quoted to us) and in each of these places you will notice a number of things.

1: They all focus on Male>Male
2: They all specify an act, not a feeling
3: They are all in black text, there is no red on the subject!

It seems to me that a cagey lesbian can slip through there alright. That’s why I don’t make a habit of citing those verses. I think of it another way that is less charged with personal feelings

1: The bible is pretty clear that marriage is between one man and one woman.
2: The bible is also clear that sex outside of marriage is wrong

A woman then therefore can only commit herself to have sex with a man. And visa versa.

Pretty clear there. No Fire and brimstone about homosexuality, just avoid fornication. Heterosexuals have to do it too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree mostly with your post except that the Bible does deal with female>female in the same Romans scripture Joel and Steve posted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pretty straightforward...

first of al ryan's comment "sure sexual sin is a blast" was hilarious!!!

But seriously...

Joel, you choose who you fall in love with? that is what it sounded like you just said. In that case there are a lot of people who are doing it wrong then, because when people dating our courting break it off because they say "i judt don't feellike that for you" well i guess if htey could choose who they fell in love with there is no reason they shuldn't be able to fall in love with that person

anyway i think i have exhausted myself here and am moving on. I am brave and don't hide this fact about me. I am an open and honest person and i don't want to be any other way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by GypsyGirl:
first of al ryan's comment "sure sexual sin is a blast" was hilarious!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah... That wasn't me.

lol that was steve missy....lol

1st: Yes, whether or not you open yourself up to allow love to be kindled is a choice. Once you've opened yourself up to the possibility then you nurture the relationship like Allen said and see what develops.

2nd: Everybody, better get down and repent now because if Allen and I agree, it is certain that the Apocalypse is right around the corner.

Ryan, I guess I wasn't clear but your response has given me a new way to say it. The point I was trying to make was why is any label other than friend used/necessary. Being Mormon, homosexual, Italian, Jewish etc. In my opinion shouldn't seem necessary to use. The person is your friend and that's all the information anybody needs. Or why not just this is Bill, Sally, Kathy, Jim? Now am I clear?

thats just not the way the world opperates brother...and its sad... and on the other hand i repented about five times just to be safe and studied and am now prepared for that appocolypse...isnt it in the bible some where that when Allen and Joel agree...The end of the world is near?...

Sorry Ryan, i didn't really pay attention, you posted right next to him so... oops

Yes NE20 it's in Joel 4:7

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Yea, and Behold, when Allen and Joel doth agree, the end is nigh. Repent and prepare for the Lord will return. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">:D

you guys rock, seriously