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Re: Mormons #28865 02/22/06 07:35 PM
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VTevaD Offline
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Believe what you like, he WAS a sexual predator according to many unbiased sources, and had a pension for nubile young women. He WAS tarred and feathered for taking a 14-year old wife against her wishes, telling her if she didn't comply within 24 hours she would be damned and barred from heaven. This is all well documented. Not by Mormons of course.. wink

Re: Mormons #28866 02/22/06 08:07 PM
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Of course...

Just so you are aware, there is a bias both ways.

could you say, show me the documents?

If you are talking about Fannie Alger, Joseph's first plural wife according to most accounts. I'd be curious to know how anyone could document the private conversations between the two.

Seeing as how Polygamy was not widely known about outside of the church before 1851 and not widely practiced in the church prior to 1838, who recorded Joseph threatening her with damnation? He certainly would not have said any such thing from the pulpit. In essence what I'm saying is that it is possible that such a thing happened, but equally likely implausible.

Some even doubt that Fannie Alger had relations with Joseph. Mormon and non-Mormon alike.

Some think the rumors began because Fannie, a house-maid for Emma (Joseph's wife) was infactuated with Joseph and started the rumors herself.

What you state as fact is so full of holes that it is impossible to rely on.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28867 02/22/06 08:24 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Even more to the point.

Your claims don't fit the accepted timeline.

Mormon and non-Mormon sources alike state that if Joseph had actually Married Fannie Alger, it happened between 1833 and 1836.

Again, Mormon and non-Mormon sources alike agree that his tarring and feathering in Kirtland, OH took place in 1832.

Holes, people do tend to fall into them.

Just curious VTevaD why do you feel you even have a dog in this fight?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28868 02/23/06 01:55 AM
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Re: Mormons #28869 02/23/06 01:55 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I also realize that in today's world it is easy for their message to be spread. However, where you're missing the point is that, according to you, a loving God is ignoring all the people who lived at the same time as the 12 and were in no way ever accessible by the 12. So I'll ask again, would God ignore them or send prophets among them?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lets see, according to you, a loving God is ignoring all the people of the world by only giving his restored gospel to the Mormons. And, from before the time of the great apostasy ,up until the BOM was published, a loving God completely forgot about all of us. There must be about 300-400 years there. And, has the BOM gotten to the ends of the earth even now? NO, so according to you, a loving God is withholding the restored Gospel from many people.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe Jesus completely and I do not believe his words have passed away</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well you do if you are a Mormon. The statement that the Bible has many plain and precious truths missing from it, means that whatever is missing is passed away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I simply believe also that any work of God that passes into the hands of man is prone to pick up some errors.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I simply believe that man is not smart enough to outwit God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can I ask you again if I've ever said anything to lead you to believe that I'm talking about a "burning in my bosom"? I don't even really know what that means. God has revealed himself to me in far more concrete ways than that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No you have not said anything, but you are a Mormon and it is a major teaching in believing in the BOM. If you don't really know what it means, how then can you believe in the BOM?
To learn about it, go to www.lds.org and do a word search, lots of stuff there on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By elevating the Bible above God, Satan has deceived Christians into practicing Idolatry.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, by elevating everything but the Bible is practicing idolatry. Jesus elevated the Bible himself and he used it to fight every battle against Satan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible is not and never will be powerful enough to constrain the actions of God</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible does not constrain God. It constrains us so that we are knowledgeable about God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ya


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Re: Mormons #28870 02/23/06 04:02 PM
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Echo, can you believe this, I missed your posts. I actually favor doctrinally based criticisms as opposed to unfounded sensationalistic accusations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lets see, according to you, a loving God is ignoring all the people of the world by only giving his restored gospel to the Mormons. And, from before the time of the great apostasy ,up until the BOM was published, a loving God completely forgot about all of us. There must be about 300-400 years there. And, has the BOM gotten to the ends of the earth even now? NO, so according to you, a loving God is withholding the restored Gospel from many people.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this comment evidences an incomplete understanding of Mormon doctrine.

A loving God has restored the Gospel in its fullness in the LDS church in a day and age where we are actually able to spread our message throughout the whole earth. Comparing 1830 to Biblical times is an unfair comparison. Even in 1830, the entire civilized world had at least been discovered and was theoretically accessible at least by boat. That was not the case in Biblical times. Therein lies the difference.

As for whether or not the Book of Mormon has reached the ends of the earth, who really can measure that. I suppose that it has been translated into most languages and that could be evidence of its reach.

But the misunderstood issue is Mormon's belief about the after-life which we have discussed before. Under the circumstances you laid out, Great Apostacy, Only true church, etc. etc., it would indeed be difficult to consider God loving of all mankind. Clearly he has favored the Judeo-Christian world over the Orient and Arabic nations historically.

Enter 1 Peter 4:6 and the Mormon conception of the Spirit World where the Gospel will be preached to all and they will have a chance to accept or reject it at that time. Only with such a device in place can God truly be considered perfectly just.

Without everyone having the chance to hear the gospel, God becomes a respector of persons. If ignorance is an excuse and the ignorant unbelieving are saved, then God has behaved unjustly toward the saved. If God condemns them in their ignorance then he has been unjust toward them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well you do if you are a Mormon. The statement that the Bible has many plain and precious truths missing from it, means that whatever is missing is passed away.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you've misunderstood me. I don't reject the Bible. I very much love the Bible and believe in it. Are there errors as a result of translation? Definitely. Is every writing that was ever written under the inspiration of God included therein? Definitely Not.

Moreover, you misinterpret the scripture. In Matthew 24 Christ is prophesying of the last days. When he says in verse 35 that his words will not pass away, he is saying that everything he is prophesying will be fulfilled.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I simply believe that man is not smart enough to outwit God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And neither do I, so despite all the changes and errors in the Bible, Man can't outwit God. Why? Because the whole time he had the Book of Mormon waiting in his back pocket and when the time was right he whips it out. Together with the Bible, the Book of Mormon is able to eradicate centuries long debates and misconceptions that have arisen from a lack of clarity in the Bible. God is pretty Great- and man certainly can't outwit him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No you have not said anything, but you are a Mormon and it is a major teaching in believing in the BOM. If you don't really know what it means, how then can you believe in the BOM?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What I'm saying is the phrase "burning in the bosom" is man's inadequate attempt at explaining God reaching out and touching one of his children. It simply doesn't work this way for me. The only "burning in my bosom" is heartburn when I've eaten too much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Bible does not constrain God. It constrains us so that we are knowledgeable about God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let me rephrase... When you adamantly state that the only way God communicates to mad today is through the Bible, you've constrained him. God need not abide by a manmade principle. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God will cease to speak personally to man. Nowhere in the Bible is future revelation ruled out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ya</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The whole thing?

Why don't you tell me how the doctrine it preaches contradicts the Bible then?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28871 02/23/06 09:20 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Echo, can you believe this, I missed your posts</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Kind of like a storm rolling through heh? But God used it for your good and mine, after all, you now miss my

posts! sleep


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Re: Mormons #28872 02/23/06 10:28 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Mostly I answer off the cuff.

Clearly we will always disagree about Biblical infallability.

Moving past that, the only other point that I really struggle with in your post is your application of Hebrews 1:1. You apply it selectively. Meaning you are only applying it to modern prophets. Hebrews, if I recall correctly was written prior to the Book of Revelation. To apply your interpretation uniformly would require rejecting the Book of Revelation. Would it not?

If prophets were in the past and now God has given us Jesus, then a Revelation on the scale of what John experienced is clearly in violation of the principle spoken of in Hebrews.

I don't think you can only apply that verse, in the way you use it, to modern prophets only.

Other than that, I would point to other verses in Hebrews stating that "God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever." If that is the case and he is unchanging, why does his modus operandi change? Why use prophets in the past. Continue leading the church by revelation to Peter (in Acts) and obviously Paul and John the Revelator as well, only to suddenly stop and change?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28873 02/24/06 04:23 AM
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What happened to Echo Jr.?

Re: Mormons #28874 02/24/06 04:16 PM
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god and his attributes are same forever, not his ways....clearly you understand that. he uses many ways to comunicate and is limitless in this respect as to how he can do so. the same today yesterday and forever stuff many people take out of context to justify a doctrine. for example would it not mean also, ..." the laws of the old testament?" or even sacrifices? or ritualistic old testament type things. His methods cannot be put in a box , but who He is and his characteristics are unchanging.
What i would say to you specifically Joel, is not that God cant have prophets today, but that the message would be 100% aligned with biblical scriptures. never contradictory, as that would then invalidate the phrase same ystrdy,tdy and frvr. so modus operandi(nice Latin) can change whenever He sees fit to accomplish His will, but never contradictory. BOM is contradictory to BIblical scripture.once yo0ur logic baffles as well, joel, ...when appropriate for debate you begin to apply humanly logic to and understanding to something that may not even be logical to us as humans. Miracles are not logical, why do you not try to make them seem logical...you dont, you just accept them. other illogical things of God, we will never understand. Our ways are not His ways, we can never fully comprehend God, and the BOM wont either, even though it tries to explain gaps or missing info, as you put it. There are mysteries within the Bible that are revealed through time when it is time for revealing. our understanding today is much greater than 100 years ago. God gives revelation to us a bit at a time I think, But it is not something not already written in His word. Just new light upon an existing truth. Except for the vision the Angel of the Lord told John the revelator NOT to write yet, the Cannon is closed. complete and all we need from God in the way of His word. open cannon, especially BOM shows God as a changing God, not a constant one...just the fact alone, Mormons supercede the BIble with it tells me this clearly. An open cannon will from the same God will not invalidate or contradict the Holy Bible. You say man has changed it and added errors. we disagree.
nab


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Re: Mormons #28875 02/24/06 04:24 PM
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"god and his attributes are same forever, not his ways...."

I disagree the Bible says that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So therefore is God is the same meaning He and His attributes wouldn't that mean His ways, too. If God changed then He wouldn't be the awesome God we know him to be. I don't think a person can change their attributes without changing their ways, too. And vice versa.


Without music life would be an empty nothingness...
... without God there would be no life.

"Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord, the Lord, is the Rock Eternal" Isaiah 26:4
Re: Mormons #28876 02/24/06 06:09 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">god and his attributes are same forever, not his ways....clearly you understand that. he uses many ways to comunicate and is limitless in this respect as to how he can do so. the same today yesterday and forever stuff many people take out of context to justify a doctrine. for example would it not mean also, ..." the laws of the old testament?" or even sacrifices? or ritualistic old testament type things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The laws of Moses were fulfilled by Jesus and that was always a part of his plan and pattern (hence God remains unchanged).

As far as speaking to Prophets is concerned, from the beginning of time, this is how God worked. There was no Bible. Just God and a conversation with a Prophet or a vision. Then Jesus came, then he left. Then we read in Acts 10 how Peter learns through a vision that the Gospel should be taken to the Gentiles. Then we have of course the Book of Revelation. Clearly, God continued to work through Visions and Divine communication to Prophets after Christ, who had fulfilled the law of Moses. Clearly new doctrine was taught, new things were revealed.

When the law of Moses ended, God made an official declaration through Jesus to that effect... "the law is fulfilled in me." Where does God say "No more Prophets, the canon is closed" There is no official declaration to that effect.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What i would say to you specifically Joel, is not that God cant have prophets today, but that the message would be 100% aligned with biblical scriptures. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with you to an extent. However, I think a more valuable role for a Modern Prophet is to define the meaning of certain things in the Bible, you know clarify confusing doctrines. Or as you say in your post, reveal the mysteries of heaven that are not revealed in the Bible.

I don't understand this persistant belief that somehow the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. It absolutely does not.

If you find an apparent contradiction, I assure you I can show you a similarly apparent contradiction with the pages of the Bible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Miracles are not logical, why do you not try to make them seem logical...you dont, you just accept them. other illogical things of God, we will never understand. Our ways are not His ways, we can never fully comprehend God, and the BOM wont either, even though it tries to explain gaps or missing info, as you put it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First of all, the Book of Mormon doesn't claim to reveal all of the mysteries of God. But what I'd rather speak to is your explanation of the interaction between Miracles and logic.

It is a manmade, logical standard that God would give us nothing beyond the Bible. Historically speaking, the emergence of the Koran as a competitor in obvious opposition to the Bible is what has engendered within Christianity the "one Book" mentality. So when another "Christian" book comes on the scene, the kneejerk response is to reject it. The Bible never says it will be the only book. The way the Bible was assembled essentially forbids that logical conclusion. It is mankind's thinking that rejects the premise of a second Book. It is presuming to know the mind of God, when "his ways are not our ways."

What I'm saying is that it is within God's purposes to bring forth the book of Mormon, you may not understand it, you may not find it logical, but you probably also don't understand all of God's purposes, do you?

God never said the Canon was closed.


Open Canon does not indicate a changing God, especially when what is revealed is in harmony with existing Canon or expanding on previously misunderstood mysteries of heaven.


From the Title page of the Book of Mormon </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">THE
BOOK OF MORMON

AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY

THE HAND OF MORMON

UPON PLATES


TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI
Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.


An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever— And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Really unbiblical


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28877 02/24/06 08:50 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Clearly we will always disagree about Biblical infallibility</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not necessarily, I don’t think we should give up on the subject too soon. I don’t think all bases are covered on it yet. We should continue to pass ideas and thoughts back and forth with one another and who knows? Maybe we will reach unity at some point in the future, or at the very least, we can have a deep respect for one another’s differing views. But don’t say “always” because I think it is always a good idea for both of us to remain open to God changing one of our hearts through the other person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You apply it selectively. Meaning you are only applying it to modern prophets. Hebrews, if I recall correctly was written prior to the Book of Revelation. To apply your interpretation uniformly would require rejecting the Book of Revelation. Would it not?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The way to look at it is this: in: Hebrews 1:1 it teaches us that in the past God has spoken to us through the prophets at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us in his son. Lets think about this for a minute.

In Jesus, God has spoken to us so completely that God himself has been fully revealed in Jesus. There is no further knowledge about God as reliable as Christ himself. The Glory of God has been revealed to us in Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6 “ For God, who said, “let light shine out of darkness” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the glory of God in the face of Christ” and Hebrews 1:3 “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word”

It is this same Jesus whose powerful word appointed the 12 apostles and set them apart to be our NT witness to Christ. Chosen to understand the things that were hidden but now were revealed to them through the Spirit. The same 12 who were given extraordinary gifts for the building up of the Church.

In John 14 and 16 Jesus promised His apostles who were eyewitnesses to the resurrection, the gift of inspiration. So John’s revelation is NOT out of date with Hebrews as John was given the gift of inspiration when Jesus was alive.
In Revelation, it is clear that Jesus is the one revealing these things to John.

God spoke through the prophets and now he speaks through the son and the son appointed John with the gift of inspiration. Jesus did not promise an ongoing apostolic or prophetic ministry. This is clear when he says that those who prophecy in his name are considered evildoers. And again, when he told the story about Lazarus. Jesus is talking about building our foundation on Moses and the OT prophets. But Jesus also gave his apostles the gift of inspiration and as a result, was speaking through the Apostles by the Spirit in the NT.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Other than that, I would point to other verses in Hebrews stating that "God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever." If that is the case and he is unchanging, why does his modus operandi change? Why use prophets in the past. Continue leading the church by revelation to Peter (in Acts) and obviously Paul and John the Revelator as well, only to suddenly stop and change?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">“God “IS” the same, yesterday, today, and forever. This scripture means that His nature does not change. But a good example of change that happened scripturally is that the OT animal sacrifices were only a shadow of what was to come. The reality of that is now found in Christ.

To interpret this scripture as meaning nothing changes at all, means we should be still be sacrificing animals! There are many illustrations of change in the Bible.

So the NT ushers out animal sacrifice in favor of the ultimate sacrifice we have in Jesus. And the NT also ushers out the OT prophets in favor of the ultimate Prophet who is the exact representation of God, and in whom we have all knowledge of God.

Hebrew 1:3 “The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word….”
2 Corinthians 4:6 “For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.” No further knowledge about God is reliable, as is Christ himself! God has so completely revealed himself in Christ, that there is nothing further to reveal.

Another illustration would be the fact that you have said that God speaks to each one of us personally outside the word of God. But, in the OT, God did NOT speak to each and every person individually but rather, he spoke to them through prophets <Hebrews 1:1 > so, by your definition of an “unchanging” God, you have fallen out of the bounds of your own definition”


Hebrews 1:1 clearly shows that OT type prophets are replaced by the ultimate prophet we have in Jesus Christ.

Lets not forget Ephesians 2:20 “built on the foundation of THE apostles and prophets,…” The incorrect interpretation being this: “built on the foundation of…apostles and prophets”


.


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Re: Mormons #28878 02/24/06 09:19 PM
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Hey Joel, I posted two posts for you

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where does God say "No more Prophets, the canon is closed" There is no official declaration to that effect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hebrews 1:1 " In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,"

Ephesians 2:20 "“built on the foundation of THE apostles and prophets,…”

Luke 16:29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets;(OT) let them listen to them.'"

Mathew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Mathew 7:15-16 "15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What is the fruit of a prophet? His words! If the false prophet is in sheeps clothing, his actions are not the fruit because his actions will look outwardly good! So he will decieve. So his words must be listened to carefully. Sometimes a person won't always catch on at first.

If a prophet says to you: " built on the foundation of...apostles and prophets" That is an absolute indicator right there. No one replaces a three letter word with three ... to shorten a sentence, it doesn't shorten it. And even especially when doing so, and any honest prophet would never do it if it completely changes the meaning of the sentence! And in this case, it does! Dramatically!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't understand this persistant belief that somehow the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible. It absolutely does not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The reason you don't understand is because the BOM is used to interpret the Bible. So, for you, it is not contradicting scripture. Do you see what I mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It is a manmade, logical standard that God would give us nothing beyond the Bible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree, it is a God standard that is in the Bible.

Hebrew 1:3 “The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word….”
2 Corinthians 4:6 “For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.” No further knowledge about God is reliable, as is Christ himself! God has so completely revealed himself in Christ, that there is nothing further to reveal.


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Re: Mormons #28879 02/24/06 11:30 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Echo,

I realize my objections to your use of Hebrews 1:1-2 could be addressed the way you have above, but you've yet to explain away Paul having direct, personal contact with Jesus after the ascension.

Your objections to the ellipses in Ephesians are unfounded, removing a "the" does not actually alter the meaning of the sentence in the least. Moreover, when you pointed that out to me a few months back it was the first I noticed it, I'll admit. However, while the document you cited was released only recently, LDS missionaries have been using that verse, without deleting the "the" for years. Moreover, when you appeal to the greek it was translated from, there is no "article" it simply says "apostolos" which translated means simiply "messenger or apostle" not "the messenger or the apostle."

If you look at the greek text it uses the word "&#945;&#960;&#972;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962;" which means "apostles" in order to mean "the apostles" it should say "&#945;&#960;&#972;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962; &#959;" that little o on the end is the "the" article.

If it didn't make a difference for the translators to add a "the" it doesn't make a difference for the paraphrasers to edit it out.

Take for example these two sentences:

Children should listen to mothers and fathers.

Children should listen to the mothers and fathers.

There is no appreciable difference.

Even if there was a difference, there is no "the" in front of the word "prophets" so you could just as easily interpret it to mean "any prophets" ancient or modern.

In short, I don't know why they deleted it, but it does not change the meaning "dramatically" and I think it was simply a poor editorial choice opening the door for people like your anti-Mormon mentors to sling more criticisms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mathew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you misinterpret this scripture.

I think it can be interpreted one of two ways.

1. outward profession of faith is not sufficient, but rather inward conversion is how the lord will judge us.

2. It's a question of authority. If not everyone who "performs miracles in Christ's name" will be accepted, it begs the question of who will be accepted. It does say "not everyone" not "no one who says Lord, Lord." If it says not everyone, then there must be someone.

It cannot be construed to be a rejection of modern prophets.

Luke 16:29 is again not a rejection of modern prophets but applies to the five men who've already rejected the prophets. Abraham is saying they should have listened already, but didn't. Also, the phrase "the prophets" is not tense specific and could just as easily be applied to all prophets throughout time as it can be applied to past prophets.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mathew 7:15-16 "15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree that the fruits of a prophet are merely his words, I think his fruits are his words, deeds, actions, prophesies etc. If they be of evil intent, then the prophet is false, if not, then likely the prophet has some value.

Let's face it a true prophet will do the works of God, so essentially he will bring forth the fruits of God.

[quoteThe reason you don't understand is because the BOM is used to interpret the Bible. So, for you, it is not contradicting scripture. Do you see what I mean?
[/quote] The Book of Mormon is not used to interpret the Bible. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are to be interpreted only through the spirit.

2 Peter 1:20 tells us about the dangers of interpreting scripture ourselves </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Scripture is given to prophets and apostles by the Holy Ghost. Who better to interpret scripture than the Holy Ghost? Second best would be current propehts and apostles.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28880 02/25/06 03:14 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I realize my objections to your use of Hebrews 1:1-2 could be addressed the way you have above, but you've yet to explain away Paul having direct, personal contact with Jesus after the ascension.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well this is a bit of a different topic. We were talking about John's prophecies in revelation, being out of date with Hebrews. I pointed out that Jesus himself appointed him to have the gift of inspiration. Perhaps I miss your point?
I am not seeing what Paul has to do with that topic, Paul isn't prophesying like John.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even if there was a difference, there is no "the" in front of the word "prophets" so you could just as easily interpret it to mean "any prophets" ancient or modern. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have "NOUN from Apostello,Used as a substantive,one sent." Strong's complete word study, concordance.

"to be" is a substantive VERB. This is a substantive NOUN.

You have to remember also, that Ephesians 2:20 talks about building "ON" a foundation. It does not talk about continually building "A" foundation. One cannot build "on" a foundation unless the foundation is already completed.

Lets not forget that we gave up animal sacrifices in favor of the ultimate sacrifice in Jesus. To fail to do so would be to reject Christ. And I think you would agree with that, am I wrong? We now give up OT prophets in favor of the ultimate prophet, Jesus Christ! To fail to do so is to reject Christ.

Jesus has become our Prophet, Priest and King!
No more prophets, no more priesthood, no more kings to rule over us, we are free to serve our prophet, priest and king! These were all but shadows and these people all died! Jesus is the fullfillment of these things and he is still alive! Why go backwards and replace "he who still lives" with "he who dies?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree that the fruits of a prophet are merely his words, I think his fruits are his words, deeds, actions, prophesies etc. If they be of evil intent, then the prophet is false, if not, then likely the prophet has some value.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, those are the fruits of a TRUE prophet, but we are talking about a false prophet in sheep's clothing and he will have good outward behavior. That is why Jesus said "in sheep's clothing" Like a white washed tomb. But, what he teaches, what he prophecies is the fruit by which we can judge him. And if the false prophet is in sheep's clothing, it is going to be tricky to catch him.
It will be deceptive and nearly undetectable.
It has to be...he is in sheep's clothing!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Book of Mormon is not used to interpret the Bible. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are to be interpreted only through the spirit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Remember we talked about how for you the Spirit works outside the word and for us the Spirit works through the word. And then, just a few posts back we discussed the problems of Bible interpretation and I said that we are in a battle against the forces of evil and relying on our feelings, intellect, abilities and because we all have weaknesses etc these all leaves us vulnerable in different ways. The same thing applies here. But if the Spirit works through the word rather than outside the word, It is then in God's hands and not in the hand's of weak and sinful mankind.

So in your statement above, I see weak and sinful humans (which we all are) trying to interpret scripture rather than letting scripture interpret scripture by the power of the Spirit. And letting the Spirit speak through that word.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Scripture is given to prophets and apostles by the Holy Ghost. Who better to interpret scripture than the Holy Ghost? Second best would be current prophets and apostles.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly!on your first point. Our Bible is the product or outcome of the Spirit, why then not let the Spirit speak for itself rather than interpreting it from outside?

Joel, when we have God's Spirit in our hearts, we don't "need" men to teach us, (although we can learn from one another) but we don't NEED men to teach us. It is not a necessity. So we don't "NEED" ongoing prophets and apostles to teach us. Each of us is given the Holy Spirit. In the OT, only the prophets were annointed with the Spirit, now,today, WE ALL ARE! so we do not NEED anyone to teach us.

1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."

When you are told you "need" prophets and apostles to teach you, you are subjecting yourself to man and his weakness when God himself wants you to be subject to him alone and his strength.

Is it an error to remove "THE" and replace it with "..."? If these Prophets truly can gain direct revelation from God and a special annointing of the Spirit,can they really make such an error? Would not God give them a direct Revelation to change the error or better yet, keep them from making it in the first place?
It is very suspect to me. And if they can make this kind of error, what is to say they can't make more errors? If they can make more errors, who can know when it is an error and when it is not? Human weakness or the weakest among us, will not always be able to discern this. And it leaves the weakest among us subject to follow the error, the most! God doesn't work that way, he uses the weak to shame the strong.

.


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Re: Mormons #28881 02/27/06 03:47 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have to remember also, that Ephesians 2:20 talks about building "ON" a foundation. It does not talk about continually building "A" foundation. One cannot build "on" a foundation unless the foundation is already completed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's really a matter of interpretation. You view the calling of new apostles and prophets as rebuilding a foundation, while I view it merely as maintaining the foundation. Both are equally legitimate interpretations.

Besides as I've said before, Jesus called the Apostles and when Judas left, Matthias was called to replace him. Other Apostles were called, even directly like Paul, Barnabus and James the brother of Jesus. If Paul, who we have no record of ever having interacted with Jesus while Jesus resided on the earth, can be called as an Apostle which is Biblically defined as Acts 1:22 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be• ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then so can anyone whom the Lord allows to be a witness of his resurrection by direct experience, as Paul was in vision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Remember we talked about how for you the Spirit works outside the word and for us the Spirit works through the word. And then, just a few posts back we discussed the problems of Bible interpretation and I said that we are in a battle against the forces of evil and relying on our feelings, intellect, abilities and because we all have weaknesses etc these all leaves us vulnerable in different ways. The same thing applies here. But if the Spirit works through the word rather than outside the word, It is then in God's hands and not in the hand's of weak and sinful mankind.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this has become a semantic point. I too believe the spirit works through the scriptures and as we read them we can be filled with the spirit to enlighten our understanding. I just believe that there is more than that, there is a personal connection that is available that is much more than a vague feeling. Perhaps here is a better place to bring up Paul. Paul did not learn he was in error by reference to the existing scriptures. He learned he was in error by having Christ speak to him from heaven, knock him on his backside and turn him blind. Mind you, this was after the injunction to the Apostles to go into all the world. This was after all of the events of the Gospels. This took place, in the period of time where you claim such things were no longer necessary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree completely with this, I just wonder what you think the "anointing" referred to is. I have my own ideas, I just wonder what you think John is talking about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would not God give them a direct Revelation to change the error or better yet, keep them from making it in the first place?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">perhaps that is exactly what was happening.

Look, I don't think we need prophets, I think God needs prophets and he says so in the Bible.

Amos 3:7 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In other words, God doesn't work without prophets

and Acts 2:17-18 (quoting Joel ironically enough) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Young men dreaming dreams and old men seeing visions, prophesies, etc. It certainly doesn't sound like God has finished speaking with us and will only be using the Bible. He is going to have young men, old men, handmaidens etc. prophesy and apparently have direct experiences with God through dreams and visions - not just the Bible.

Of course, you see these people as merely </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> ...weak and sinful humans... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">which assuredly they are, but you forget that God has said in 1 Chronicles 1:27 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who could possibly have been more weak or foolish that Joseph Smith?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28882 02/27/06 08:21 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's really a matter of interpretation. You view the calling of new apostles and prophets as rebuilding a foundation, while I view it merely as maintaining the foundation. Both are equally legitimate interpretations</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You simply cannot build ON a foundation if the foundation is continually being maintained. To do so means the rest of the building never gets built. Not to mention, if such a foundation is in need of continual maintenance to begin with, one has to wonder what is wrong with the foundation! In real life, I would be taking the builder of that foundation to court!

This is a prime example of interpreting scripture through the BOM. The BOM believes in present day prophets and so Mormons interpret scripture to allign with the BOM rather than listening to the common sense argument being used in Ephesians 2:20.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Besides as I've said before, Jesus called the Apostles and when Judas left, Matthias was called to replace him. Other Apostles were called, even directly like Paul, Barnabus and James the brother of Jesus. If Paul, who we have no record of ever having interacted with Jesus while Jesus resided on the earth, can be called as an Apostle which is Biblically defined as Acts 1:22 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Paul and the others view themselves as different than the 12 Apostles even though they themselves were called apostles too. This is made clear in verses such as Acts 13:31 "30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people."
In this verse, Paul says "THEY" meaning the 12. He does not include himself in their calling.

Acts 15:4 "4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them."

Here Paul too recognizes the 12 apostles as being set apart from himself.

And again in Acts 15:2 "2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question."

So while Paul himself is called an apostle, he is not an apostle in the sense that the 12 were.
The twelve were direct witnesses of all that had taken place and they were appointed to be a witness to the JEWS. Paul was appointed as an apostle to the GENTILES.

Not to mention, the LDS prophets and apostles contradict the prophets and apostles of the Bible. Thus they are false prophets and false apostles.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then so can anyone whom the Lord allows to be a witness of his resurrection by direct experience, as Paul was in vision.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Paul did not witness the resurrection, a vision is different. It is interesting that Paul had witnesses to his vision. Not Joseph Smith.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree completely with this, I just wonder what you think the "anointing" referred to is. I have my own ideas, I just wonder what you think John is talking about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the annointing is the Holy Spirit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Look, I don't think we need prophets, I think God needs prophets and he says so in the Bible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We have prophets today Joel, just not in the OT sense. Anyone who shares scripture and inspiration gained from there, is a prophet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Amos 3:7
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, God doesn't work without prophets
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In Amos God means that punishment doesn't come without God first revealing to men that punishment is coming. God still does this today through his word in the Bible. Every warning is in there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Young men dreaming dreams and old men seeing visions, prophesies, etc. It certainly doesn't sound like God has finished speaking with us and will only be using the Bible. He is going to have young men, old men, handmaidens etc. prophesy and apparently have direct experiences with God through dreams and visions - not just the Bible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"In those days" is referring to the time the NT was being put together, to those who lived at the time of the apostles.

I believe that God can still communicate through whatever means he chooses but it is not the norm.
But it would be an exception in extreme circumstances. Because he has revealed everything we need to know already, in his word.
In the NT times, not all things were yet revealed. Therefore, those times were exceptional.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who could possibly have been more weak or foolish that Joseph Smith?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He uses the weak and foolish who faithfully proclaim his word and trust in his word above all else. Joseph Smith did not do this.


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Re: Mormons #28883 02/27/06 09:02 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You simply cannot build ON a foundation if the foundation is continually being maintained.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, if you don't maintain a foundation, it may begin to leak, cracks may appear from shifting earth, and settling and they need to be patched.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The BOM believes in present day prophets and so Mormons interpret scripture to allign with the BOM rather than listening to the common sense argument being used in Ephesians 2:20.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Really this is a prime example of how you haven't even read the Book of Mormon. It says no such thing. The belief about God using Prophets comes entirely from the Bible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So while Paul himself is called an apostle, he is not an apostle in the sense that the 12 were.
The twelve were direct witnesses of all that had taken place and they were appointed to be a witness to the JEWS. Paul was appointed as an apostle to the GENTILES. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe Paul was a direct witness that Christ had been resurrected.

As for him referring to and deferring to the 12 in Acts. This is understandable, because we don't see Paul even call himself an Apostle until Romans.

Amos 3:7, you're wrong. Read verse 8. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Without a prophet, who can prophesy?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"In those days" is referring to the time the NT was being put together, to those who lived at the time of the apostles.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Acts 2:17 actually says "In the last days

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe that God can still communicate through whatever means he chooses but it is not the norm.
But it would be an exception in extreme circumstances</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed, and I would consider worldwide apostacy "extreme circumstances."


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28884 02/27/06 10:40 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, if you don't maintain a foundation, it may begin to leak, cracks may appear from shifting earth, and settling and they need to be patched.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, you are right. But my point is the foundation must already be in place in order for there to be repairs and maintenance. Adding more prophets is not filling in cracks, it is laying a new foundation. If a foundation is already in place, that being the biblical prophets and apostles, the repairs come in by gaining more truth from the prophets and apostles in the bible and the already revealed word.
A new prophet or apostle does not fill in the cracks, it is a whole new layer of the foundation itself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Really this is a prime example of how you haven't even read the Book of Mormon. It says no such thing. The belief about God using Prophets comes entirely from the Bible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The D&C has Joseph as a current prophet. The BOM prophecies about Joseph etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe Paul was a direct witness that Christ had been resurrected.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you mean through the vision? I don't agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Without a prophet, who can prophesy</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We have prophets today, just not in the OT sense

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Acts 2:17 actually says "In the last days

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, the last days of the completion of the Bible

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed, and I would consider worldwide apostasy "extreme circumstances."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not me. I don't believe what any man or even an angel from heaven who says what is in opposition to the bible. Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

I believe Jesus when he said the gates of Hell could never overthrow or overpower his church :Mathew 16:18 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades(hell) WILL NOT OVERCOME IT.


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