</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Believe me, we're not flattered. We're worried. Why? Because it is exactly this kind of intolerance that lead to the gross persecution of Mormons in the 1800's. It was intolerance from Christian leaders that inspired their congregants to tar and feather, murder and kill innocent women and children, tie Mormon women to church benches and rape them, and force the Mormons to flee from the United States and establish their own settlement in the West.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, I don't defend these types of Christians in any way, These are NOT true believers. That is for sure! You cannot blame what they do on true Christians. They may have the name "Christian" but clearly they are not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know I've asked this before, but why do you use the pharisees tactics?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not me Joel. I am doing what Jesus would do! Point out false teachings and counter it with the truth.

I give up Joel. nothing will convince you of my pure motives and I just give up. You have heard the truth and you reject it. That is your choice.

You constantly attack "me"...That is persecution.
I attack "Mormon Doctrine"...that is love


You need to learn the difference.
Until then, your mind is made up, No point discussing anything with you.

Jesus never once went on the offensive unless the pharisees were attacking him and his doctrine. then he was merely defensive.

I hate to tell you, but I'm the one doing what Jesus did here. Not you.

Joel, there is contradiction in your posts and Mormon doctrine(sources at least) and it is confusing. WHile you state some things with certainty, the LDS writings differ and seem to agree with Echo, on many points. I hear you, i see the the LDS sources and writings, and they dont jive. which is it, source of LDS theology or Joel33? Do you differ somewhat from mainstream Mormonism so to speak on some doctrinal issues?
the celestial, terrestrial, tellestial and equestrial(just kiddin) thing along with spirit parasdise and spirit prison and hell and outer darkness, are difficult to grasp as well. I do know there are degrees of the underworld , but it is for demons and satan, ie. outer darkness, the pit, the lake of fire, tartarus , etc. interesting study could be from this. All of the references in scripture pertaining to those who endured to the end and entered into heaven seem to pertain to one heaven, ya know, the one with streets of gold and mansions,and pearly gates, and all that. any thing short of that heaven isnt "heaven".
nab

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus never once went on the offensive unless the pharisees were attacking him and his doctrine. then he was merely defensive.

I hate to tell you, but I'm the one doing what Jesus did here. Not you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wrong again Joel, In fact Jesus was much, much harder on the Pharisees than I have been with you. Perhaps I should take this approach?

Mathew 23 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d]"

Jesus had no tolerance for the hypocritical and those who would lead others astray...

Echo,

Read Matthew 22, clearly the Pharisees and Saducees were on the "attack" in Matthew 22 and Matthew 23 is a continuation of that interaction and Jesus' response to that attack. So I'm not wrong. All of the other examples you cited earlier have similar evidence preceding the citation you gave by only a few verses.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, there is contradiction in your posts and Mormon doctrine(sources at least) and it is confusing. WHile you state some things with certainty, the LDS writings differ and seem to agree with Echo, on many points. I hear you, i see the the LDS sources and writings, and they dont jive. which is it, source of LDS theology or Joel33? Do you differ somewhat from mainstream Mormonism so to speak on some doctrinal issues? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was wrong about the definition of Hell and such and I took my stripes.

I agree with you, the concept of the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms can definitely be confusing, That's why I posted so liberally from our scriptures to explain them.

My main point is that what Echo claims to be the Christian position, generally aligns with the WELS position and I'm certain she would find other Christians here who would disagree with her. to make that case look at the WELS thread.

My other point, Echo is looking for evidence to show that Mormons believe we are saved by grace and works. Because that's what's she's looking for, she is overlooking all evidence to the contrary. I've posted many verses from the Book of Mormon that delineate us being saved by faith. Honestly, there is as much a conundrum in the Bible regarding faith and works as there is in the book of Mormon. The only way to settle the conundrum is to view those works in their entirety.

The LDS position that I've been taught in church my whole life is that "Faith without works is dead." Works are important to be sure. A person of real faith will always manifest works of faith in their life. To be sure, there are Mormons without faith but with plenty of works, but that is true of everybody.

Moreover, I find Echo's beliefs to be in conflict with the Bible, as do you nabster, with regard to choice and her assertion that there is no law in the gospel. Can't be backed up by the Bible.

I'm actually a pretty mainstream Mormon. As I pointed out in the other thread, the key to understanding our position is Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The law spoken of here is the law of faith. All blessings from God are predicated on our faith in Jesus Christ. Obedience to what our faith requires of us, is the obedience spoken of. In that sense, yes, works are required, not by God, but by our faith in Christ. Our faith will demand of us to keep the commandments because we love Jesus. It's really a cause and effect relationship.

Faith in Christ => Saved
Faith in Christ => Works

Am I wrong?

Joel,

First, when I arrived at this forum, you were telling everyone to pray to see if the Bom is true.
This was clearly contradictory to scripture and therefore you were attempting to set up somthing that is against the knowledge of God. The Pharisees would have at least asked about praying to see if the BOM was true. But you went a step further by trying to introduce an unbiblical doctrine.

2 Corinthians 10:5 "We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against God"

Titus 1:11 "For there are many rebelloius people, mere talkers, decievers, especially of the circumcision group. They must be silenced"

Here is what the LDS means when they say they are saved by grace.

First, All of us have been saved from death through the resurrection.

But, ONLY those who are "OBEDIENT" to God's laws go to Heaven (Celestial). These are the only ones who escape the consequences of their sins.
So they have only been saved"IF" they meet the conditions.

Through the Atonement therefore all can only be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

So in essence, For the Atonement to apply to them, they must first have faith, repent, be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. Even still, they are only "SAVED FROM SIN UPON CONDITION" that they complete in their lifetime the probation which requires ongoing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.

So it is true that they are NOT SAVED BY GRACE UNLESS THEY DO ALL THEY CAN DO.

This indentifies Mormons as lost and on their way to outer darkness.

So Echo, are you conceding that Jesus didn't attack the Pharisees without provocation?

I guess you felt me saying that a person can pray about the Book of Mormon was a personal attack levied at you, since you hadn't even shown up yet, and that Allen, Steve, Trusting Him, Nabster, and everyone else here weren't capable of defending themselves.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was clearly contradictory to scripture and therefore you were attempting to set up somthing that is against the knowledge of God. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think every Christian would agree with you on this point. In fact, I believe there are many here who would agree that it is completely valid to pray and ask God if you want to know if something is true. Again, you are confusing the "Christian Position" with the "WELS position."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So it is true that they are NOT SAVED BY GRACE UNLESS THEY DO ALL THEY CAN DO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this is completely inaccurate, but at least it's clear that you never intended to listen to me or even "win my soul for Christ" rather you simply wanted to "scare" Christians into not listening to the heathen Mormon, by asserting to them that what we believe is not Christian.

You know the Book of Mormon verse that says "For we know we are saved by grace, after all that we can do." I've pointed this out before, but it is clarified in context by this accompanying verse </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's pretty clear here that the author is saying the only source that their children can look to for a remission of their sins is Jesus Christ - not their works, not anything but Jesus Christ.

I've made this point over and over as well. The Bible, when you view specific verses in a vacuum seems to indicate that works are necessary for salvation. For example </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Or this one

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doing works meet for repentance sounds like you have to do something to gain repentence.

how about this </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">apparently their end is according to their works, not their faith.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;


1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">according to this it looks like in order to "lay hold on eternal life" we have to "be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate."

[/quote]Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. [/quote] In their works they deny him? sure makes good works and obedience sound important again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tts 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you believe in God be careful to maintain good works.

And of course this </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,


Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?


Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The implied answer to the question asked in verse 14 "can faith save him?" is clearly "NO!"

Look I don't quote all of these to make the case that works are part of our salvation. I quote them to make the point to Echo, that what you are doing with verses from the Book of Mormon, I can do by isolating verses of the Bible. Quoted out of context, anything you say from the Book of Mormon is valueless and worthless. Same with anything I quote out of context from the Bible.

Am I wrong?

I'll even repost some verses from the Book of Mormon that I've already posted twice that show some of what you claim in their complete context and show the doctrine of saved by faith being clearly taught in the Book of Mormon. You can feel free to not read them again if you must.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2 Nephi 25:23-26
quote:
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For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace• that we are saved, after all we can do.

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
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2 Nephi 2:5-10
quote:
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5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a asacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him.
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Mosiah 13:32
quote:
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32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

I don't want it to be misunderstood and have people think that I think good works are unimportant. I think they are vitally important. What I've said in other spots here already is that it is less important to debate Faith vs. Works and more important to understand the relationship between the two. Works proceed forth from faith.

IF we profess faith in Jesus Christ and do no Good works then that faith is most likely not real faith. Without real faith, can we be saved?

If we do good works and have no faith, are we wasting our time? Yes and no. We are wasting our time if we think those works by themselves will get us to heaven. We aren't wasting our time if we are simply doing good works out of our love for our fellow mankind.

If we have faith in Jesus we will be saved and generally that will generate in us a love for Jesus. Jesus has told us how to show our love for him. "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

I just stumbled across this verse which I believe adequately expresses what I think and is absolutely beautiful to boot.

Titus 2:11-15
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tts 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Tts 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The grace of God brings us to salvation. The grace of God also teaches us to deny ungodliness, wordly lusts, to live righteously, soberly, and godly.

The grace of God teaches us to look forward with hope to the second coming of Christ.

Christ will redeem us from iniquity and through his sacrifice purify us and make us zealous for good works.

It's clear, and it's just beautiful scripture.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So Echo, are you conceding that Jesus didn't attack the Pharisees without provocation?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, clearly he said to the Pharisees what he wanted to say to them. He also answered their questions but clearly Jesus had no tolerance for false teaching.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think every Christian would agree with you on this point. In fact, I believe there are many here who would agree that it is completely valid to pray and ask God if you want to know if something is true. Again, you are confusing the "Christian Position" with the "WELS position."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't expect people to believe me, they can see if what I say is biblical or not. I just laid it on the table for them to think about.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Look I don't quote all of these to make the case that works are part of our salvation. I quote them to make the point to Echo, that what you are doing with verses from the Book of Mormon, I can do by isolating verses of the Bible. Quoted out of context, anything you say from the Book of Mormon is valueless and worthless. Same with anything I quote out of context from the Bible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have not misquoted anything from the BOM or taken it out of context. Clearly LDS theology teaches that works are required "before" one can have eternal life. You say that all the quotes I use from the Bom are OT. But you are wrong.

The Mormon book, the Miracle of forgiveness is from this century and here is what it says:

"Of the two elements, the one great blessing-immortality-comes to man without his effort, as a gift from the Almighty. The other-eternal life-is a cooperative program to be developed by the Lord and his offspring on earth. It thus becomes the overall responsiblity of man to cooperate fully with the Eternal God in accomplishing this objective. To this end God created man to live in mortality and endowed him with potential to perpetuate the race, to subdue the earth, to perfect himself and to become as God, omniscient and omnipotent."{page 2)

ABOVE, GAINING ETERNAL LIFE IS A COOPERATIVE EFFORT! MEANING ETERNAL LIFE BY FAITH AND WORKS.
MAN GETS PART OF THE GLORY, SALVATION DOES NOT BELONG TO GOD ALONE

"The earth was to be not only a place of residence for man to prove himself, Agency would be given man so that he could make his own choices"

ABOVE, MAN MUST PROVE HIMSELF BEFORE HE GETS ETERNAL LIFE

"If he (man) magnified his second estate (earthly life) , his earth experience, eternal life would await him. To that end men go through the numerous experiences of earth life- to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them"page 4,5


CLEARLY THE ABOVE SAYS THAT MAN MUST MAGNIFY HIMSELF IN ORDER TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. THE BIBLE SAYS THAT HE WHO EXALTS HIMSELF WILL BE HUMBLED.

"Thus the way was opened for our immortality and-if we prove worthy-eventual exaltation in God's Kingdom"(page 6)

THE ABOVE SAYS THAT WE MUST PROVE WORTHY!AGAIN, HE WHO EXALTS HIMSELF WILL BE HUMBLED.

"As a second great boon to us the Lord Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map-a code of laws and commandments whereby we might attain perfection and , eventually godhood. This set of laws and ordinances is known as the gospel of Jesus Christ, and is the only plan that will exalt mankind"(page 6)

THE GOSPEL HAS LAWS AND THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT BY THE GOSPEL WE ARE SAVED. THEREFORE YOU ARE SAVED BY FAITH AND WORKS.

"None can enter into eternal life other than by the correct door-Jesus Christ and his commandments"(CHAPTER 1)

THIS IS SO CLEARLY WORKS!


ALL THE LDS SCRIPTURE YOU QUOTED TO JUSTIFY YOUR POINT FAIL MISERABLY. FIRST, NOTHING JESUS DID FOR YOU TAKES AFFECT FOR YOUR GOOD UNTIL YOU FIRST PROVE WORTHY. UNTIL YOU COMPLETE YOUR PART OF THE BARGAIN.

There are 3 possibiblites of what you are trying to do is 1)draw Christians away by pretending you are not saved by works 2) you have been brainwashed into thinking you are not saved by works so that they can keep a chain on your soul. OR 3) You intentionally try to decieve everyone here so that we won't try to rescue Mormons from Satan's trap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The grace of God brings us to salvation. The grace of God also teaches us to deny ungodliness, wordly lusts, to live righteously, soberly, and godly.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You speak like a Christian, but LDS teachings do NOT agree with anything you say.

Grace is not somthing we recieve after we have done all we can do. The gospel contains no LAW.
It is a message of God's love for us and it does not include law.

The LDS teachings speak for themselves.

The Miracle of Forgiveness is not scripture. I've said that before, but you don't seem to accept that.

That being said, none of what you said means faith and works.

The cooperative effort - Jesus providing the means whereby we can be saved. In other words, Jesus did his part and now we do ours, exercise faith.

Prove oneself - your understanding of the english language is poor. To prove also means to test. WE believe we come to earth to be tested to see if we will believe in Christ and be faithful to him.

Magnify - Magnify and exalt are not synonyms. We magnify ourselves through the blood of Christ's Atonement.

Prove Worthy - yes we must prove ourselves worthy by exercising faith in Jesus Christ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"As a second great boon to us the Lord Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map-a code of laws and commandments whereby we might attain perfection and , eventually godhood. This set of laws and ordinances is known as the gospel of Jesus Christ, and is the only plan that will exalt mankind"(page 6)/quote] As I've said and you've ignored. The law is the law of faith, all obedience and participation in ordinances flows from faith in Christ. They are required by our faith, not by God. If we don't do them, then likely our faith is not perfect.

[quote]ALL THE LDS SCRIPTURE YOU QUOTED TO JUSTIFY YOUR POINT FAIL MISERABLY. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">so these words mean nothing to you? "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins" namely Jesus and not their works. How about this "And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off." Or this "Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah;" Or this "there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah," Or this "he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved." None of those things indicate salvation only through Jesus?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">FIRST, NOTHING JESUS DID FOR YOU TAKES AFFECT FOR YOUR GOOD UNTIL YOU FIRST PROVE WORTHY. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With this I agree, however, you misunderstand what it means to "prove worthy." It means to accept Jesus as Savior and Redeemer and let that faith guide you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">UNTIL YOU COMPLETE YOUR PART OF THE BARGAIN.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">my part of the bargain is having faith in Christ and then doing whatever comes naturally from that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are 3 possibiblites of what you are trying to do is 1)draw Christians away by pretending you are not saved by works 2) you have been brainwashed into thinking you are not saved by works so that they can keep a chain on your soul. OR 3) You intentionally try to decieve everyone here so that we won't try to rescue Mormons from Satan's trap.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">or the obvious fourth option... 4. The LDS church is so grossly misrepresented by it's enemies that someone needs to speak up for them and clear up misconceptions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You speak like a Christian, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's because I am one. Despite Christianity's attempts at exclusion, it cannot change the true meaning of LDS doctrine and how it has instilled in me an unshakeable faith in Christ, that I know will save me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> LDS teachings do NOT agree with anything you say.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yes they do, the one time I was wrong I accepted full responsibility and I've been more careful ever since.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Grace is not somthing we recieve after we have done all we can do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree, the correct interpretation is that after all we can do, we still need grace, so what we do is really of none effect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The gospel contains no LAW.
It is a message of God's love for us and it does not include law.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree, Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Moreover, Jesus Gospel exceeds and includes the law of Moses. However, keeping these commandments will not save us. Rather they are to be kept out of love and gratitude for what Jesus has done for us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LDS teachings speak for themselves.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then let them, cease twisting them to suit your agenda. In actuality it is Echo that is trying to speak for LDS teachings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Miracle of Forgiveness is not scripture. I've said that before, but you don't seem to accept that</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, you cannot deny this book. Spencer W. Kimball was a Mormon Prophet. Every time you think you can deny the truth about the teachings of the LDS by saying it is not scripture is a big, big cop out!

Joel, people can read.
You are trying to claim that you believe what we believe. This is a lie.
Here is what Spencer W. Kimball has to say about what we believe:

"one of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."

Joel, for your information, we believe that we are saved alone by the grace of God. and we believe that is all that is necessary for salvation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah," Or this "he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved." None of those things indicate salvation only through Jesus?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No because you must do somthing first in order for the merits, mercy and grace to do that for you.That is very clear to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With this I agree, however, you misunderstand what it means to "prove worthy." It means to accept Jesus as Savior and Redeemer and let that faith guide you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">very clearly it means this: " This set of laws and ordinances is known as the gospel of Jesus Christ, and is the only plan that will exalt mankind" (Kmball)and this "None can enter into eternal life other than by the correct door-Jesus Christ and his commandments" (kimball)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">my part of the bargain is having faith in Christ and then doing whatever comes naturally from that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">EXACTLY! faith and works!!! Because you do not have eternal life until you have done all you can do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">or the obvious fourth option... 4. The LDS church is so grossly misrepresented by it's enemies that someone needs to speak up for them and clear up misconceptions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is not an option. The LDS sources clearly speak for themselves. The fact that I can quote LDS sources like the Miracle of Forgiveness by SPencer W. Kimball who was an LDS Prophet! And you find what I quote harms your witness so you come back with: "this is not scripture" clearly ruins your personal testimony! What you are telling me then is this : "SPencer W. Kimball, a Mormon Prophet grossly misrepresents Mormonism and even though he was a Prophet,he is misinformed and has many misconceptions about Mormonism."

This is what you are telling me Joel. Which is what I have been trying to tell you all along. You follow false Prophets! ALL OF THEM!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then let them, cease twisting them to suit your agenda. In actuality it is Echo that is trying to speak for LDS teachings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">HERE IS A QUOTE FROM THE BOOK OF MORMON.
I have pasted the intro, which itself describes the contents of the chapter..
The Chapter I have chosen is 2 Nephi 31
It is prophecy about Christ and his gospel.

Nephi tells why Christ was baptized—Men must follow Christ, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end to be saved—Repentance and baptism are the gate to the strait and narrow path—Eternal life comes to those who keep the commandments after baptism. [Between 559 and 545 B.C.]

HERE IS A LDS ARTICLE ENTITLED: HAVE YOU BEENSAVED?

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1998.htm/ensign%20may%201998.htm/have%20you%20been%20saved.htm?fn=document-frameset.htm=templates$3.0

HERE IS ANOTHER LDS ARTICLE : GRACE OR WORKS?

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway....ation%20by%20grace%20or%20by%20works.htm

Joel, the whole point is that you are the one who is Blind to the fact. And as a result, you cannot understand what I am trying to tell you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spencer W. Kimball was a Mormon Prophet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you are right. However, he wrote this book prior to becoming the Prophet.

Look, I think the book is very useful, don't get me wrong, but it is completely misleading and false to claim it is on the same level as what the LDS people accept as scripture.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"one of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting quote, I'll have to see when he said it.

I can see his point. I think many churches, I'm not pointing the finger at WELS here, but many churches say you are saved by Grace alone and that is understood by their membership as a license to sin. I can understand why a leader of the church would view this as a pernicious and evil doctrine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, for your information, we believe that we are saved alone by the grace of God. and we believe that is all that is necessary for salvation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again I understand what you are saying, but just to be clear, how about you give me an answer to this hypothetical.

A man is saved, he accepts Jesus as his Savior. That night he's low on Cash, so he goes to the liquor store with his gun and kills four people while robbing the store. After leaving the store he is in a high speed chase with police and wraps his car around a telephone poll killing himself. Still saved?

The LDS position is saved by faith. Works, are they necessary? Yes, because if they aren't there, then neither is faith.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No because you must do somthing first in order for the merits, mercy and grace to do that for you.That is very clear to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">from that verse alone you get that we have to do something? I mean other than have faith that is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

quote:
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my part of the bargain is having faith in Christ and then doing whatever comes naturally from that.
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EXACTLY! faith and works!!! Because you do not have eternal life until you have done all you can do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Will you answer a question for me? What is the natural effect of faith in a person's life? Is it not good works?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> "SPencer W. Kimball, a Mormon Prophet grossly misrepresents Mormonism and even though he was a Prophet,he is misinformed and has many misconceptions about Mormonism."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">no, as I pointed out, he was not the prophet when he wrote Miracle of Forgiveness. We had another Apostle once who made some gross statements regarding race and discrimination. Just because he was an Apostle didn't make him right. In fact, the prophet corrected him and his statements were withdrawn.

Why hasn't the same happened with the miracle of forgiveness, possibly because the book as a whole has a lot of value.

I'm not blind to anything here, I've read all of this stuff. the point remains that while Mormons do believe in doing good works and we believe that Jesus has actually asked us to do good, we don't believe those works save us. We believe it is Jesus that saves. Becasue we love him, we will keep his commandments, we will do good works. We don't think a person who isn't at least trying to keep the commandments is really saved, why? because if they had real faith they would try.

I understand perfectly what you are trying to say. You want everyone to think we believe there is some power of salvation within the works we do. Sadly we don't believe that. We believe that salvation comes in and through the Holy Messiah. He grants that salvation to all who believe. The church exists to try to help people understand the life of the believer and live that life. I've said it before, but I guess you simply can't believe that a Mormon would actually keep a commandment because they love Jesus. That's prejudice.

From the articles you quoted

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">However, to limit Paul’s meaning to the law of Moses alone would not be quite accurate. Paul rejects the adequacy of the Mosaic code in and of itself for salvation, but he makes it broader than that too. For example, in warning the Ephesians about concluding that a man is saved by works, he makes no reference to the law: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph. 2:8–9.) So while this explanation is somewhat correct, it does not go far enough.

The second typical explanation goes something like this: The fall of Adam brought two kinds of death into the world—physical death, which is the separation of body and spirit, and spiritual death, which is separation of man from God. The atonement of Christ overcame physical death through the Resurrection. This is salvation by grace because it comes to all men automatically and does not depend on what kinds of lives they have lived. But, if we wish to overcome spiritual death and enter back into God’s presence, we must be obedient to laws and principles. This is exaltation by works. Thus, according to this explanation, we are saved by grace and exalted by works.

This is an appealing explanation because it seems to provide a logical argument that fits the statements of Paul neatly into it. However, there is a doctrinal error involved here. While the resurrection of the dead is certainly an integral part of the plan of salvation, and is unconditional and independent of men’s works, the term salvation as used in the scriptures does not mean physical resurrection alone. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie has pointed out, salvation is synonymous with exaltation:

“Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek.” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 670.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and the Conclusion </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.

President Joseph Fielding Smith has summarized the relationship between grace and works as follows:

“So Paul taught these people—who thought that they could be saved by some power that was within them, or by observing the law of Moses—he pointed out to them the fact that if it were not for the mission of Jesus Christ, if it were not for this great atoning sacrifice, they could not be redeemed. And therefore it was by the grace of God that they are saved, not by any work on their part, for they were absolutely helpless. Paul was absolutely right.

“And on the other hand, James taught just as the Lord taught, just as Paul had taught in other scripture, that it is our duty, of necessity, to labor, to strive in diligence, and faith, keeping the commandments of the Lord, if we would obtain that inheritance which is promised to the faithful. …

“So it is easy to understand that we must accept the mission of Jesus Christ. We must believe that it is through his grace that we are saved, that he performed for us that labor which we were unable to perform for ourselves, and did for us those things which were essential to our salvation, which were beyond our power; and also that we are under the commandment and the necessity of performing the labors that are required of us as set forth in the commandments known as the gospel of Jesus Christ.” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 2:310–11.)

Thus, we can with Paul fervently exclaim that “the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 6:23). We should continue to stress the importance of obedience, of repentance, of faith, and strive with all our hearts to demonstrate good works in our lives. But we should never lose sight of the great overriding fact of the grace of God and the wholly central part it plays in our atonement and salvation.

Moroni, in the closing words of the Book of Mormon, teaches the relationship between the grace of Christ and the need for our righteous efforts. Note how he keeps distinctly clear what it is that perfects us, and yet what must happen in our lives to bring that about.

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

“And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, I'll try to be clear, maybe I've completely failed you in that regard. We are saved by grace, does that mean don't you dare do any works? No. Rather it means, Jesus is saying to us what he said to the woman caught in adultery. "Go thy way and sin no more."

She was literally saved from stoning by Jesus, he forgave her completely, but at the same time he admonished her to "sin no more." He does the same with us. He forgives us and allows us access to his grace, he does however ask that if we love him we keep his commandments. So do you love him?

I would ask some questions of you now. Why have you feigned ignorance of the LDS church until this point? Why have you been saying you're trying to understand when you're really not? Why have you been intentionally misleading me and everyone else? Does the ends justify the means?

It's pretty clear that you've made a serious study of LDS doctrine for the purpose of destroying Mormon's faith. You've clearly got your own copy of the Miracle of Forgiveness, you're as good at navigating lds.org as I am. Where you misrepresenting your exposure to the LDS faith to somehow try to fool me? I don't get why the unethical behavior is somehow acceptable when witnessing to a Mormon?

Thank you for giving me this answer in the WELS thread as it is applicable here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Baptism is not somthing we do for God. Baptism is somthing God does for us! Perhaps this is where your thinking is wrong. Baptism is not a sign from us to God that we have excepted him. It is a means of Grace. It is somthing God does for us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with you God has provided us with these ordinances as a means of graces. God allows us to do good works and actually through our faith teaches us how to do them.

Thanks Echo.

Joel, your quotes are out on your long post can you fix it?

I just looked it over again, I don't think there's anything wrong, I just put in a long quote.

thanks Joel, I'll answer tommorow.

Just one point now,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LDS position is saved by faith. Works, are they necessary? Yes, because if they aren't there, then neither is faith. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Works are NOT necessary. The Thief on the cross did not do any works, he was saved. Paradise is Heaven. Jesus said: "today you will be with me in paradise"

Joel, you are stumbling on the stumbling stone which is that works are necessary for salvation!
They are NOT NECESSARY for Salvation.