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Re: Mormons #28685 12/09/05 04:19 PM
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No, the point was this...

The ten virgins represent believers. Those who are anxiously awaiting the coming of the bridegroom, symbolically the coming of Christ and his judgement.

Only 5 out of 10 believers, in the parable, were actually prepared when Christ comes, as such only 5 out of 10 were admitted into the wedding feast or symbolically, the kingdom of heaven.

You see, the interpretation of the parable suggests that only 50% of those who "profess" to be believers will actually be saved. Get it?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28686 12/09/05 04:55 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who goes to the celestial heaven?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doctrine & Covenants 76:50-53 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now before you go and misinterpret to your hearts intent, let me clarify a bit for you. Verse fifty says it is those who believe, from that belief springs baptism and obedience to commandments. It is belief that gains them salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. That belief is made manifest through their actions in keeping commandments.

For a little more clarity read verses 69-70 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Next question.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">who goes to the terrestial heaven?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doctrine and Covenants 76:75-79 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">These are they, in my opinion, that profess Jesus with their mouths but reject him in their hearts, so to speak. One would not expect to see good works manifest in their lives because they are not true to their faith in Christ. This is the man who claims to have been saved yet continues to live in sin. Why does he do this? perhaps it is because he is blinded by the subtle craftiness of men and believes he is already forgiven despite the sin he commits and that he need do nothing to be saved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who goes to the tellestial heaven?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doctrine & Covenants 76:82-84 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And Doctrine & Covenants 76:103-104 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It should be understood that these are liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers who turn not away from their sins and refuse the redemption of Christ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who goes to outer darkness?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doctrine and Covenants 76:31-36 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those who have partaken of Christ's glory and yet deny him. Judas would be a good example as he had first hand knowledge of Christ's divinity and yet turned away.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28687 12/10/05 12:57 AM
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So it is Mormons only in the celestial, and apostate mormons in outer darkness and the rest of us go to the other two?

What will it be like in the two lower heavens?
Do they have to suffer any consequences there?
What will be the consequence of all the things people failed to do here?


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Re: Mormons #28688 12/10/05 01:15 AM
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THERE PAIN IS ETERNITY WITH WELS PEEPS IN 2ND HEAVEN AND US ASSEMBLY OF GOD KIDS IN 3RD HEAVEN THE OUTER DARKNESS IS ALL TEXANS!!!!!!!!!LOL AT MY OWN JOKE. laugh tongue monkey


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Re: Mormons #28689 12/10/05 11:15 PM
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HA HA HA...Oh I don't know Nab my friend, could be that you might end up suspended in space, flying around wondering where you missed the turn? Didn't know which one to "choose" to go to. Ya, thats it! Tee hee hee. (just kidding...I think...ya ok, I am kidding) monkey

***she runs for cover to avoid flying objects being propelled at her***


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Re: Mormons #28690 12/12/05 04:43 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So it is Mormons only in the celestial, and apostate mormons in outer darkness and the rest of us go to the other two?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not necessarily. It gets a little complicated with our beliefs about the Spirit World and preaching to the spirits in Prison. Let me put it this way, If when you guys die, you find yourselves in a place that doesn't quite seem like heaven and doesn't quite seem like Hell and I come knocking on your door --- Listen to what I have to say. In short, to enter the celestial kingdom you don't have to have been a Mormon in this life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What will it be like in the two lower heavens?
Do they have to suffer any consequences there?
What will be the consequence of all the things people failed to do here?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll take the last one first. The consequence is not being able to partake of the fullness of God and Christ in the Celestial Kingdom. As you read below also, you'll find that those who shall inherit the Celestial Kingdom will be resurrected as part of the first resurrection which extends from when Christ was resurrected until he comes again to rule and reign at the beginning of the Millenium. Those who will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom have to wait until sometime after the first resurrection to be resurrected and the Telestial Kingdom will be the last to be resurrected.

As for what it will be like, I'll cut and past the explanation of what it will be like in all three.

First the Celestial Kingdom: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of cod—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The terrestrial I've already posted above, but I'll repost </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As for the Telestial </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And finally, in general about all three </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

91 And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.

92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;

93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28691 12/12/05 08:20 PM
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SO what is paradise? Is that part of one of the three heavens?

So of all the people who ever lived, do most people go to one of the three heavens and a minority go to Hell (Outer darkness)where Satan and his demons are?


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Re: Mormons #28692 12/12/05 08:24 PM
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Before I answer any more questions, I want to know what website you do Mormon outreach on.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28693 12/12/05 11:41 PM
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Paradise is not part of the three heavens. It is part of the spirit world where we reside awaiting the resurrection it is associated with the Spirit Prison spoken of in 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 but is not prison rather the place of residence for those who have departed and already have accepted Christ. It's that place I mentioned a few posts back when I said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If when you guys die, you find yourselves in a place that doesn't quite seem like heaven and doesn't quite seem like Hell and I come knocking on your door --- Listen to what I have to say. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AS for this...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So of all the people who ever lived, do most people go to one of the three heavens and a minority go to Hell (Outer darkness)where Satan and his demons are?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe only a small portion of people will be cast into outer darkness. From the scriptures we can identify only a few who had first hand knowledge of God and rejected him nonetheless. Judas, I already mentioned, perhaps Cain. Really I expect outer darkness to be a sparsely populated lonely place.

It would be inaccurate to characterize outer darkness as Hell. I would think it's actually worse. It would be more appropriate to associate Hell with the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms. As anything less that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom would be an Eternal disappointment and Hell enough for anyone who should know better.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28694 12/13/05 03:57 AM
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hell is gnashing of teeth and eternal seperation from God. it is the lake of fire for those who do make it into heaven...is it not?


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Re: Mormons #28695 12/13/05 06:42 AM
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Nabster

Joel is saying that outer darkness is equivalent to our Hell.

Hell in LDS theology is a different place. It is a temporary place. We can hear the gospel from there and then move on to heaven.


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Re: Mormons #28696 12/13/05 06:56 AM
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Joel

Things don't fit with scripture.

First. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 "2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise."

Here these verses equate the third heaven with paradise.

Second- LDS theology says that most people go to heaven (1 of 3) and few people go to Outer darkness.

The Bible says the opposite:

Mathew 7:13-15 "13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

And finally Revelation 21:8 "Revelation 21:8 “8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

This shows us that these kinds of people go where Satan and his demons are and not to the lowest heaven.


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Re: Mormons #28697 12/13/05 04:39 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel is saying that outer darkness is equivalent to our Hell.

Hell in LDS theology is a different place. It is a temporary place. We can hear the gospel from there and then move on to heaven.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NO, NO and NO!!!

This is why I'm suspicious of you. You continually misrepresent our beliefs.

Read what I've posted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It would be inaccurate to characterize outer darkness as Hell. I would think it's actually worse. It would be more appropriate to associate Hell with the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms. As anything less that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom would be an Eternal disappointment and Hell enough for anyone who should know better.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is absolutely different than what you just wrote.

The "Temporary place" as you put it or better the place where we await the resurrection is known as the Spirit World in our theology, not Hell. It is divided into two parts. Spirit Prison and Spirit Paradise. Spirit Prison is not Hell, but rather the place Christ visited when he was crucified in 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6. Spirit Paradise is not Heaven.

Heaven = the Celestial Kingdom

Hell = either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms

Outer Darkness = worse than Hell.

As for your scripture quotations.

I believe there is a place called paradise. I also believe there is a different place called the Celestial Kingdom, it is not paradise, but it sure is a paradise.

All scriptures regarding Fire and Brimstone I believe are not best translated literally. I believe it is figurative. To end up in the two lower Kingdoms separated from the fullness of God and Jesus' glory would cause me to gnash my teeth, weep and wail, and experience every other agony normally associated with Hell.

I will trust you, Echo, when you stop pretending to know anything about the LDS faith.

From the other thread...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am here and I am trying to learn what you are teaching me, does that not speak for itself?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But now we know you're only trying to learn so you can be better equipped to witness to gormless Mormons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does the fact that I have been trying to keep peace between us as far as possible come across as meaningless or hateful? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">mostly it comes across as empty and hollow because despite how many times you say this, you continue to use pharisaical tactics, try to catch me in my words and misrepresent what I've said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you not take me at my word? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When you start to take me at mine and stop misrepresenting it to others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you have any idea the distressful emotions you cause me when you label me a Mormon hater? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mormons have a saying that goes like this... "The wicked taketh the truth to be hard." Basically what it means is that when someone accuses you of something that is actually true, it is far more difficult to bear than when they accuse you of a falsehood.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you know what I feel like inside when you call me a liar by not taking me at my word?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Most definitely, because you've been doing this to me since day one. I mean how many times and how many different ways do I have to explain that we are saved by faith and grace and that works are merely a result of that faith before you actually believe me? Do you have any idea how frustrating it is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mormons believe in 3 Gods, Father, son and Holy Spirit.
Christians believe in 1 God, Father, son and Holy Spirit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is an inaccurate depiction that is used by anti-Mormons to scare Christians away. We do believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate entities, but I've got news for you.... That ain't just Mormons. It just so happens that alot of Christians believe the same thing. We believe that God, Jesus and the HOly Spirit are one in purpose and mission, but make no mistake, God is in charge and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are in his service at his beck and call. Is Jesus a God? Hmm, He's definitely the son of one, both spiritually and literally so maybe, but I don't think the LDS church has a definitive answer other than to say that He is a member of the Godhead which consists of all three. Can Jesus and the Holy Spirit speak for God and act with his power - absolutely. I guess where the confusion lies is that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the two closest entities to being a God that we know of aside from our heavenly father.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Mormon definition of the roles of the priesthood differ from the Christian definition as we have discussed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, this is not only the case with Mormons. What you should have said is that Lutherans have a distinct definition of the role of the priesthood. Mormons actually have a fairly common distinction for the priesthood, viewing it as a governing body for the church on the earth and God's authority. That view is shared by many churches and many groups that believe various people are ordained with the priesthood in order to lead congregations. Again, this kind of misdirection is simply scare tactics to keep anyone from looking any further into the religion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Mormon definition for Heaven is Celestial, terrestrial and tellestial.
The Christian definition for heaven is “one heaven”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">wrong again. But I've been over this one upstream.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Mormon definition for Hell is a temporary place where some go between death and resurrection. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">again wrong, but I've already explained this. We'll see if you accept my explanation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In LDS, the atonement is defined as unconditionally covering ONLY adams sin and only conditionally each person’s individual sin.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wrong again. And since we've already covered this 100 times over, another point in the why I shouldn't trust Echo column. We believe that all mankind will be resurrected because of Christ, unconditionally. We also believe that Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind. However, for that forgiveness to be effective in our lives we have to accept it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In LDS the Gospel is defined as including the law of commandments among other things.
In Christianity the Gospel has no law in it at all.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wrong again. but mostly about Christianity this time. I do believe that most Christians would accept that the Sermon on the Mount is perhaps one of the most sublime explanations of the Gospel that exists. I do believe that in that Sermon, Christ expanded on his law, granted, obedience to that law is of none effect, for without faith no man can be saved. Moreover, I do believe it was Jesus who said. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." So clearly you're right, the commandments have no place in the gospel whatsoever. Again this is a misrepresentation to make the LDS church appear diobolical.

The problem here is that you assume that the WELS way is the Christian way. When in actuality, many Christians believe very differently from WELS. Almost every point above where you're trying to show that Mormons are different from Christianity is really only showing that Mormons aren't in WELS. So tell me what you really think, is any Christian that isn't in WELS partially misled? Maybe not enough to ruin their salvation, but they aren't fully correct in their doctrine are they?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is like trying to learn a whole new language.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's not, it's simply trying to listen, understand what someone is saying and not rejecting them because it doesn't jive with what you've already been told.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have no desire to misrepresent LDS doctrine here nor anywhere and the more I learn, the less chance that will happen. It is important to me!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then you should begin with questions, not inaccurate assertions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can not even imagine how happy I would be to find out I am wrong!!!!!!!! I WOULD LOVE TO BE WRONG!! It would save me so much heartache and pain and I can hardly wait to find out I am wrong!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well then break out the champagne, because you are wrong.

[/quote]I am not too sure what you mean here? But when I read LDS sources, I conclude that you are saved by works as well! Why is that?
[/quote] You come to that conclusion because you are looking for evidence to support that conclusion. I can do the same thing with the Bible and have done so. If I leave out the bits about salvation by faith and only focus on the bits about works, I'd think the Bible taught salvation by works. In fact, if I was looking for evidence to prove that point, I would subconsciously overlook anything that didn't directly prove my preconcieved conclusion.

[/quote]This I understand. If someone says this about Mormons, it is true. Perhaps you misunderstand what they mean and take it in the wrong way. If you look at our differing definitions of Atonement, You do not actually believe in the Christian Atonement. Therefore when they say you don’t believe in Christ’s Atonement, this is what they mean. You don’t believe in the Christian Atonement.
Saying things like this does not make a person a Mormon hater. Unless you have left something out?? [/quote]It makes a person a Mormon hater, when they are intentionally misrepresenting Mormon beliefs. Especially when they've been told over and over again that this representation is inaccurate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not so sure we agree on what being saved by grace is yet. I have to learn more from you to see if we agree or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">WE may not, but bear in mind that you are not only in disagreement with me a Mormon. But you also disagree with nabster, who is in the Assembly of God. I would be willing to bet there are many others out there on this thread that would say that "we must choose to accept God" as well and you would say they don't have saving faith. But they are all from acceptable Christian denominations, no www.truthinlovetoAssemblyofGod.com sites out there. No www.truthinlovetonondenominational sites out there. No www.truthinlovetouninformedChristians.com out there. We're so special to get your attention.

Believe me, we're not flattered. We're worried. Why? Because it is exactly this kind of intolerance that lead to the gross persecution of Mormons in the 1800's. It was intolerance from Christian leaders that inspired their congregants to tar and feather, murder and kill innocent women and children, tie Mormon women to church benches and rape them, and force the Mormons to flee from the United States and establish their own settlement in the West.

I know you're thinking that you're working solely from a position of love, but that isn't always the effect on those who you talk to. What you say and falsely accuse Mormons of can turn the worst kind of Christians to intolerance and even violence.

This is why I get so upset when people misrepresent our beliefs. I am a student of history. I love to study history. What I've learned from my study of LDS history is that this is how the persecution started.

Would you be surprised if an innocent individual came to your website and became so disturbed by what they read about Mormons that they decided it was in their best interest to drive to Utah for the LDS General Conference and harrass innocent conference attendees? It wouldn't surprise me. I've seen it. Time and time again.

Probably what is worst about all of this is that you've entered into a Ministry to Mormons while you are admittedly undereducated as to what we believe. Do you really think it is wise to go out and witness against Mormonism when you don't fully understand it yourself. What if you are actually doing more harm than good because you are so grossly uninformed and misled? Doesn't that worry you? It would keep me up at night.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28698 12/13/05 09:58 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Echo said: Joel is saying that outer darkness is equivalent to our Hell.

Hell in LDS theology is a different place. It is a temporary place. We can hear the gospel from there and then move on to heaven.
________________________________________
JOEL SAID:NO, NO and NO!!!

JOEL SAID:This is why I'm suspicious of you. You continually misrepresent our beliefs.

Read what I've posted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First, Your outer darkness is the equivalent of our Hell. In LDS theology, Satan and his demons are there right? In our Hell, Satan and his demons are there.

Then I said “Hell in LDS theology is a different place. It is a temporary place. We can hear the gospel from there and then move on to heaven”

I have learned this from LDS sources, see below.

“Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is thetemporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76: 81-86; 88: 100-101). Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88: 35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76: 43-46).”
(LDS Guide to the scriptures)

http://scriptures.lds.org/gsh/hell

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">JOEL SAID: It would be inaccurate to characterize outer darkness as Hell. I would think it's actually worse. It would be more appropriate to associate Hell with the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms. As anything less that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom would be an Eternal disappointment and Hell enough for anyone who should know better.
________________________________________
That is absolutely different than what you just wrote.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You misinterpreted what I said.” Your” outer darkness is equivalent with “OUR” hell
I did not say “your” outer darkness is equivalent to “your” hell.

But I see here that you misrepresent your own teachings as you say that the two lower kingdoms are Hell. But the LDS Guide to Scriptures says what I said and it contradicts what you said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">JOEL SAID Heaven = the Celestial Kingdom Hell = either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms Outer Darkness = worse than Hell.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not according to the online LDS dictionary.

Are you saying that Jesus is NOT God? Only the son of God?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ECHO SAID: The Mormon definition for Hell is a temporary place where some go between death and resurrection.
________________________________________
JOEL SAID again wrong, but I've already explained this. We'll see if you accept my explanation</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again you are wrong Joel

See the above Mormon quote.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ECHO SAID In LDS, the atonement is defined as unconditionally covering ONLY adams sin and only conditionally each person’s individual sin.
________________________________________
JOEL SAID Wrong again. And since we've already covered this 100 times over, another point in the why I shouldn't trust Echo column. We believe that all mankind will be resurrected because of Christ, unconditionally. We also believe that Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind. However, for that forgiveness to be effective in our lives we have to accept it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> http://scriptures.lds.org/bda/atnmnt

This link says what I said, here are the stmts:

“All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the fall of Adam.”

The atonement is conditional, however, so far as each person’s individual sins are concerned”


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ECHO SAID In LDS the Gospel is defined as including the law of commandments among other things.
In Christianity the Gospel has no law in it at all.
________________________________________
JOEL SAID Wrong again.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not wrong Joel, you are.

http://scriptures.lds.org/gsg/gospel

Key phrase : “The gospel includes the eternal truths or laws, covenants, and ordinances needed for mankind to enter back into the presence of God.”


I THINK JOEL, PEOPLE CAN SEE FOR THEMSELVES THAT I HAVE TRIED MY BEST TO HOLD UP LDS DOCTRINE USING LDS SOURCES. AND THEY CAN ALSO SEE THAT YOU CONTRADICT THE TEACHINGS OF THE LDS CHURCH.


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Re: Mormons #28699 12/13/05 10:24 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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So let's see, you didn't start your post by saying: "Joel is saying" and I was not.

Moreover, it would be inaccurate for you to charactarize my beliefs as in conflict with LDS doctrine. I stand corrected - Hell, at least physically speaking, is a temporary place. My point doesn't fully contradict this, but adds to the concept of hell as being not only characterized by physical burning, but by the mental agony associated with not attaining the full Glory of God. So I repeat, for me, ending up in either of the lower two kingdoms would be Hell - figuratively. I would however, literally, weep, wail, and gnash my teeth were that to be the case.

So I stand corrected and amend further as follows

Celestial Kingdom = Heaven
Terrestrial Kingdom = something less than Heaven and possibly a personal Hell
Telestial Kingdom = something less than something less than Heaven and possibly a personal Hell
Paradise = a place where righteous souls await the resurrection.
Spirit Prison = temporary Hell
Outer Darkness = permanent Hell

Next time, I'll make sure to consult the web before answering. My apologies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you saying that Jesus is NOT God? Only the son of God?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am saying Jesus is a member of the Godhead. If that makes him a God then so be it. That doesn't detract from the Glory of God the Father, but only adds unto it.

I'm also saying that pretending all Christians are in agreement on the nature of the relationship or existence between God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is inaccurate. Many Christians believe they are all the same and many Christians believe they are three separate beings or entities.

Basic anti-Mormon tactic - tell a Christian what they believe (don't wait for objections) and then tell them the LDS believe something different.

As per the LDS definition of the Atonement </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This link says what I said, here are the stmts:

“All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the fall of Adam.”

The atonement is conditional, however, so far as each person’s individual sins are concerned”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here's the full text from the LDS website </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The word describes the setting “at one” of those who have been estranged, and denotes the reconciliation of man to God. Sin is the cause of the estrangement, and therefore the purpose of atonement is to correct or overcome the consequences of sin. From the time of Adam to the death of Jesus Christ, true believers were instructed to offer animal sacrifices to the Lord. These sacrifices were symbolic of the forthcoming death of Jesus Christ, and were done by faith in him (Moses 5: 5-8).

Jesus Christ, as the Only Begotten Son of God and the only sinless person to live on this earth, was the only one capable of making an atonement for mankind. By his selection and foreordination in the Grand Council before the world was formed, his divine Sonship, his sinless life, the shedding of his blood in the garden of Gethsemane, his death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, he made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the fall of Adam. Hence, all shall rise from the dead with immortal bodies, because of Jesus’ atonement. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15: 22), and all little children are innocent at birth. The atonement is conditional, however, so far as each person’s individual sins are concerned, and touches every one to the degree that he has faith in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, and obeys the gospel. The services of the Day of Atonement foreshadowed the atoning work of Christ (Lev. 4; Lev. 23: 26-32; Heb. 9). The scriptures point out that no law, ordinance, or sacrifice would be satisfactory if it were not for the atonement of Jesus Christ (Heb. 10: 1-9; 2 Ne. 9: 5-24; Mosiah 13: 27-32).

Sin is lawlessness (1 Jn. 3: 4); it is a refusal on men’s part to submit to the law of God (Rom. 8: 7). By transgression man loses control over his own will and becomes the slave of sin (Rom. 7: 14), and so incurs the penalty of spiritual death, which is alienation from God (Rom. 6: 23). The atonement of Jesus Christ redeems all mankind from the fall of Adam and causes all to be answerable for their own manner of life. This means of atonement is provided by the Father (John 3: 16-17), and is offered in the life and person of his Son, Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5: 19).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My point was that Mormons do not believe differently from all other Christians. Nabster actually seem to agree that the Atonement of Christ as far as it covers sins is conditional upon the acceptence of Christ and the degree of faith we exercise in him.

Moreover, isn't one of the fundamental scriptures of Christianity conditional? {quote]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [/quote] This verse is very clear, only those who believe in Jesus will be saved, everyone else will perish.

Jesus paid the price for all, but for that to be effective, we have to repent.

It goes back to when I said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The problem here is that you assume that the WELS way is the Christian way. When in actuality, many Christians believe very differently from WELS. Almost every point above where you're trying to show that Mormons are different from Christianity is really only showing that Mormons aren't in WELS. So tell me what you really think, is any Christian that isn't in WELS partially misled? Maybe not enough to ruin their salvation, but they aren't fully correct in their doctrine are they?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

As for this </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECHO SAID In LDS the Gospel is defined as including the law of commandments among other things.
In Christianity the Gospel has no law in it at all.
________________________________________
JOEL SAID Wrong again.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not wrong Joel, you are.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You really have a hard time understanding what I write. Because once again you've missed the point.

As I understand it the Gospel is preached throughout the NT and any utterance of Jesus can be deemed as relevant to the Gospel. So when you assert that all Christians agree that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
In Christianity the Gospel has no law in it at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you are wrong. Nabster recently gave a lengthy discourse about how grace actually includes and exceeds the law. Nabster is not a Mormon. Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Aren't the commandments laws?

Jesus also spoke the entirely of Matthew 5 and 6 and amended the law from

Don't kill to don't hate
don't commit adultery to don't lust.

Those aren't laws.

He even told us the greatest commandment

Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Interestingly, I've already quoted his instructions on how to show your love to God. He said, "keep the commandments."

I disagree with you on the point that "all Christians agree there is no law in the gospel."

This is an anti-Mormon scare tactic. Tell the Christian what they believe and don't wait for objections before telling them how different Mormons are. It amounts to little more than peer-pressure.

In summary, I stand corrected regarding Hell, heaven and all the stuff I already covered. On the other hand, I disagree with you about the characterization of the LDS version of the Atonement and the LDS version of the Gospel. Specifically, I don't believe that all Christian denominations agree on the atonement and how it becomes part of a persons life. I also don't believe all Christians think the Gospel contains no law.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I THINK JOEL, PEOPLE CAN SEE FOR THEMSELVES THAT I HAVE TRIED MY BEST TO HOLD UP LDS DOCTRINE USING LDS SOURCES. AND THEY CAN ALSO SEE THAT YOU CONTRADICT THE TEACHINGS OF THE LDS CHURCH.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">actually, I don't think anyone else really cares.

I also stand by what I said. This sort of Christian intolerance is the breeding ground for outright persecution of Mormons. Did you know that a few years ago, I read a poll that showed most Americans viewed Mormons and Muslims to be equally "un-American." What a horrible misconception, for both parties. But it is the culture of "mormons are different so they must be bad" that creates this perception in society.

It has happened before, and I for one would appreciate it if it didn't happen again.

Here's an interesting thought. Remove yourself from Mormonism for a minute and tell me exactly what the definition of a Christian is. No references to Mormon beliefs, but plainly and simply what a Christian is.

According to Webster's it means: 1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

And Christianity is defined as: 1 : the religion derived from Jesus Christ , based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

how is Webster's wrong?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28700 12/13/05 11:03 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Not that Webster's is infallible because it isn't, I just wanted to know what they had gotten wrong according to you.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28701 12/13/05 11:21 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I also stand by what I said. This sort of Christian intolerance is the breeding ground for outright persecution of Mormons. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you will read Mathew 15:1-9

Mathew 23

Mathew 16:5,6

Mathew 7:15-23

You will learn that not only did Jesus come down really hard on the Pharisees and Saducees, he also warned his disciples about them! Warning people about the false teachings they teach or believe in, or warning about false prophets, is the CHRIST LIKE THING TO DO! It is NOT loving to stand back and say nothing and let people go to outer darkness without trying to stop it! What you percieve as persecution is God reaching out to you through his people.


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Re: Mormons #28702 12/13/05 11:24 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">According to Webster's it means: 1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

And Christianity is defined as: 1 : the religion derived from Jesus Christ , based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

how is Webster's wrong?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Webster's is not wrong. Mormons don't believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, they believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith which changes and alters what Jesus taught.


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Re: Mormons #28703 12/13/05 11:25 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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I know I've asked this before, but why do you use the pharisees tactics?

I agree with you, we can't stand by and do nothing. But don't you see what I'm saying, It was "Christian" ministers who incited their congregations to action against the Mormons. I know there are bad ones in every flock.

Jesus did at times address the Pharisees beliefs, mostly when under theological attack from them. However, he spent the bulk of his time simply presenting his Gospel. He defended his teachings and actions, but mostly he preached his gospel.

If what you have is so much better, then just preach it. If it's that great, we'll all agree.

In other words, Jesus came down hard on the Pharisees and Saducees when they were doing to him what you are doing to me. Unprovoked attacks on their doctrine was not his style at all.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #28704 12/13/05 11:29 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Webster's is not wrong. Mormons don't believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, they believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith which changes and alters what Jesus taught.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What teachings of Jesus has Joseph Smith changed?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
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