Joel

Alot of Luther's earlier teachings were still Catholic for which he later changed his mind. And we don't equate Martin Luther and his sayings with inspired scripture as do Mormons with their leaders.

Luther did although teach at some point and was very clear that he didn't believe God spoke through on-going visions or revelations and made reference to the fact he's thankful he didn't since you wouldn't know if it were God or simply a dream or the devil.

Mainly, we Lutherans do what the Bereans do, we search the scripture daily to see if what even Martin Luther claimed was the truth. Luther was fallible just like the rest of us.

Echo,

I don't know how to make myself more clear, but you really need to read what it is I'm writing so that you don't waste time by responding to something entirely different.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In Genesis Satan tempted Eve with the words: “did God really say…”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you'll re-read, you'll note that I didn't disagree with you about what Satan said to Eve. I disagreed with what you contend Satan has said to LDS people. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Satan says to the LDS: "did God really say the priesthood of Melchizedek was always a priesthood of one single person?" Did God really say that the priesthood has been made obsolete?" etc. etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So next time don't respond about Eve.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When the Bible says that the priesthood has been made obsolete, anything else is a temptation to doubt God’s word.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe it's actually Satan causing you to think that the Priesthood is obsolete through an error in Biblical interpretation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I take God at his word and trust not at all in what Men have to say. God says that no man can thwart his purposes, Joel, to believe that they can, is to call God a Liar!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't believe errors in the Bible thwart God's purposes. This is where I truly feel sorry for you. You see, you seem to think that God only has one tool at his disposal in order to fulfill his grand plan for our salvation. You think that all he can and will use is the Bible. I disagree with that. God can use the Bible, the holy spirit, even other people to make sure that his purposes and plan are not thwarted.

As for errors in the Bible. I'll ask again, because I can't remember if you ever responded to this, but if it were impossible for the Bible to contain errors, then why did John in Revelation and Moses in Deuteronomy warn those who might want to change it? If it can't be changed isn't that warning superfluous and then an error in and of itself? John was worried and he spoke with Jesus directly, Moses was worried and he spoke face to face with God, why aren't you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You may have done it in ignorance before, but you have no excuse now that I have told you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!! Like I'm going to take your word over the word of God that has spoken directly to my heart and mind, not subjectively but plainly and clearly, without any confusion. You really do have a sense of humor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The second thing is that scripture warns about powerful delusions sent to those who refuse to hear the truth. I believe what you are experiencing could be a powerful delusion.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting could you please show me where this is in the scripture, because I'm pretty sure it applies to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Clearly though, you felt convicted just by the words you are charging me with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No actually I didn't. I actually feel like a servant and disciple of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I feel that way each and every day.

You see, I actually have had a literal Saul/Paul experience. The Lord has forcefully and mightily called me to repentence and into his service. It happened a long time ago, but I remember it as though it happened yesterday. I'll never forget it, and when you one day hopefully get to personally experience all that God has for you, you'll understand what I mean.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Some of them are Mormon and they are the ones who gossiped behind my back to speak untruth’s to other family members thus turning them all against me. Very unchristian behavior. But I still love and care about them and pray for them, even though they hate me!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">for that I am truly sorry I'm sure you know that goodness and jerkiness are not exclusively owned by any one religion or denomination. Goodness and jerkiness are universal qualities and can be found in any church, political party, race or nationality. It's too bad, but it's true. Frankly, because your experience with Mormons has been with those whose faith has not convicted them of their wrong doing, I'm not surprised you have so many misconceptions about our teachings and doctrine. Clearly, their unChristian behavior indicates a weak understanding of the gospel and it appears as though they have falsely communicated some beliefs of ours to you.

Additionally, it would appear to me that your experience with rotten Mormons has lead you to be a little overzealous once you find a Mormon that will actually listen to you, so I can understand some of your offensive comments now that I know a little more background.

However, I must admit that if you've treated them the way you treat me, I can understand why they may not like you all that much. You see, when God reveals his truth to you the way he has to me, his doctrine and truth become a part of me. To hate Mormon doctrine is to hate me. I know you don't think so, but that is the way I feel and that is the way I always feel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus did not stand back and say nothing to the Pharisees, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and how many pharisees where there numbered among his disciples? I know what you mean, I'm just trying to tell you that in order to win friends and influence people, it's best not to criticize the things they hold most dear.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee that was converted, he came to Christ (John 3) in the spirit of humility and learning Christ did not attack his beliefs he merely expounded on the new doctrine he was preaching. Other pharisees, the examples you were citing, came with attacks and criticisms and were answered in kind. I kind of feel like you are approaching me the way Pharisees approached Christ. You use deception and argumentative tactics to tear down my teachings, much like Christ, my hand is forced to respond defensively.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, I have always treated you with love and respect. Over and over I have told you this yet you do not believe me. You on the other hand clearly show by your words a complete lack of love and respect for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can sit back and pretend like your words carry no malice, but the truth is they are very personal, very offensive, and very mean-spirited. Listen, Allen, nabster, Steve, everyone here disagrees with me at least as much as you do and yet the manage to keep the arguments at a non-personal level, for the most part. On occassion we all slip up, but you are consistently personal in your attack. Do you appreciate it when I say you are decieved? Do you appreciate it when people go after the church you believe in and belong to? Do you enjoy when people continually misrepresent your belief system?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you have Eternal life in the kingdom of Heaven now? No, only worthy Mormons who have done all they can do will get eternal life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wrong again.

Culturally you are right, most Mormons avoid ever saying things like "I'm saved" the reason for this is not a lack of confidence in their salvation and Savior. Rather, it is because we know that even those who accept Christ can turn against him at a later point in life. Salvation or being saved is not final until we die and are judged. We can be confident that we will be saved because of our faith in Christ, moreover our confidence in Christ can never waver. Where Mormons struggle is their confidence in themselves to remain true to their profession of faith in Christ and not deny him as their Savior. Frankly it's not only Mormons who face this peril. Anyone in any relgion, should exercise a healthy amount of caution in regard to their faith in their Savior - is it always strong, is it unshakable, will it never falter. We've had discussions in another thread called "Once saved, Always saved" or something like that and most people agree (including me) that people can surrender their status as saved through denying Christ in word and deed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not only this, but the LDS doctrine on forgiveness requires that we earn God’s forgiveness. Forgiveness cannot be earned. It is a gift.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's a lie.

We believe repentence is a process. We believe that the truly penitent will, in their heart, confess to God that they are a sinner, turn away from their sins and do them no more, and make restitution wherever possible to those they have wronged. These aren't requirements to be forgiven, rather these are the actions of someone who has truly been convicted of their wrong doing as motivated by their faith in Christ. I realize that is a fine line to distinguish between, but it is there and it is a valid point.

Salvation is a gift
Forgiveness is a gift
Our Savior is a gift to us all eternally.

Joel

How did you get your post so wide? I had a hard time reading it because the whole thing doesn't fit on the screen and I had to scroll to the right and to the left.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> but if it were impossible for the Bible to contain errors, then why did John in Revelation and Moses in Deuteronomy warn those who might want to change it? If it can't be changed isn't that warning superfluous and then an error in and of itself?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I did respond to this. God cannot discipline anyone, nor hold anyone accountable for something that he does not first warn about in his word. By the warning laid out in Scripture, we are warned that if we tamper with his word we will face discipline or judgement thus his word will be preserved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting could you please show me where this is in the scripture, because I'm pretty sure it applies to you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2Thesalonians "7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You see, I actually have had a literal Saul/Paul experience. The Lord has forcefully and mightily called me to repentance and into his service. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is the counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.
We love Jesus for whom he is, not for what he can do. We come into the true saving faith through the message of the gospel and not through miracles, signs and wonders.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To hate Mormon doctrine is to hate me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes I understand and this is truly unfortunate. But the reason is because you are taught that you must be worthy. Therefore you only have worth in what you believe and do. The Bible teaches us that we have worth and value apart from what we believe and do. SO the fact that you feel this way is a doctrine of man and not God.


My Mormon relatives have not taught me anything about the LDS. I have learned everything I know from LDS sources.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can sit back and pretend like your words carry no malice, but the truth is they are very personal, very offensive, and very mean-spirited.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No malice, in my heart I feel such a desperation for Mormons, such an anguish of heart and soul, such utter sadness and grief that I can barely stand up under the torment. It is one thing if someone understands the gospel and flatly rejects it, I can understand that, that is their choice. But it makes me real angry at Satan that people can be deceived into going to Hell! That just eats me up inside! And I mean that! What adds to my suffering is the fact that Mormons cannot see the deception, and whenever a person tries to point that out to a Mormon, they get all defensive and act everything but Christian. Being completely blinded to their own unworthiness and sinful behavior. Does this behavior make me angry at them? This behavior makes me angry to be sure! But I am not angry at them. I am very angry at what they are being taught that leaves them feeling so worthless unless they are worthy! They have been taught to act this way by the teachings of men, who make them twice as much a son of Hell as they are.
So I fight tooth and nail against the Doctrine that is destroying people that I am in anguish for, that I love and care about! So if I come across strong, that is because I hate the doctrines that destroy people and make them feel worthless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
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Not only this, but the LDS doctrine on forgiveness requires that we earn God’s forgiveness. Forgiveness cannot be earned. It is a gift.

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That's a lie.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Mormon Church teaches that Forgiveness must be earned we will let the church speak for itself:

Forgiveness in LDS theology must be earned, this stands in stark contradiction to God's forgiveness which was earned by Jesus on the Cross and is [b]already given to us.

Colossians 2:13,14 "He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross"

Contrast LDS theology: ALL QUOTES ARE FROM AN LDS BOOK CALLED THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS BY SPENCER W KIMBALL

LDS:" There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin...The saving does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life...Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin...to try is weak"(Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball)

LDS:"Repentance must involve an all-out surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the word of wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowman...God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to ALL areas of life" (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball)

LDS:"In his Sermon on the mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect" (Math 5:48) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He Would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable Perfection therefore is an achievable goal"(Miracle of forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball)

LDS:"Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out surrender, with a great humility and a broken and contrite spirit.
It depends upon whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes."(Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball)


LDS:" How great the joy to feel and know that God will forgive sinners! Jesus declared in his Sermon on the Mount: "...your heavenly father will also forgive you" (math 6:14) This on certain conditions of course"(Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball)

LDS:"TO every forgiveness there is a condition(miracle of forgiveness by Spencer W Kimball)

Someone please tell me how to stop these extra wide posts??????????????????????

I don't know how it got so wide, I suspect Allen did something so we wouldn't take up so much space.

It makes me real angry at Satan that people can be deceived into going to Hell! That just eats me up inside! And I mean that! What adds to my suffering is the fact that mainstream Christians cannot see the deception, and whenever a person tries to point that out to a mainstream Christian, they get all defensive and act everything but Christian. Being completely blinded to their own unworthiness and sinful behavior. Does this behavior make me angry at them? This behavior makes me angry to be sure! But I am not angry at them. They have been taught to act this way by the teachings of men, who make them twice as much a son of Hell as they are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is the counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.
We love Jesus for whom he is, not for what he can do. We come into the true saving faith through the message of the gospel and not through miracles, signs and wonders.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. Spencer W. Kimball who you just quoted out of context, once emphasized that faith must precede the miracle. I exercised faith in Christ when my conscience was convicted of my wrongdoing. As a result of that faith, I was granted a wonderful gift.

Seriously read the Miracle of Forgiveness. All he's saying is that to be forgiven you must surrender completely and fully to the Lord. Is that so wrong?

Moreover, if you still disagree, that's fine, "the Miracle of Forgiveness" is not scripture. The only things we accept as scripture are the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and whenever the Prophet is speaking the will of the Lord.

Here's what's in the LDS Bible dictionary on forgiveness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Greek word of which this is the translation denotes a change of mind, i.e., a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world. Since we are born into conditions of mortality, repentance comes to mean a turning of the heart and will to God, and a renunciation of sin to which we are naturally inclined. Without this there can be no progress in the things of the soul’s salvation, for all accountable persons are stained by sin, and must be cleansed in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. The preaching of repentance by John the Baptist formed the preparation for the ministry of our Lord. See Matt. 3: 2; Matt. 4: 17; Mark 1: 4, 15; Mark 2: 17; Luke 3: 3,8; Acts 2: 38; Acts 3: 19; Acts 8: 22; Rom. 13: 11-14; James 5: 1-6; Rev. 2: 5, 16; Rev. 3: 3, 19; cf. Isa. 1: 16-20; Jonah 3: 5-10; Jer. 3 - 5; Jer. 26; Ezek. 18: 19-31; Ezek. 33: 7-20; Hosea 13: 14; Hosea 14; Joel 1: 8; Joel 2; Zeph. 2; Zech. 1; Mal. 1 - 4.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here's what I found in the online gospel study guide. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A change of mind and heart that brings a fresh attitude toward God, oneself, and life in general. Repentance implies that a person turns away from evil and turns his heart and will to God, submitting to God’s commandments and desires and forsaking sin. True repentance comes from a love for God and a sincere desire to obey his commandments. All accountable persons have sinned and must repent in order to progress toward salvation. Only through the atonement of Jesus Christ can our repentance become effective and accepted by God.

Make confession unto the Lord, Put away the evil of your doings; cease to do evil, Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, Matt. 3: 2. There is joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, Luke 15: 7. God commandeth all men every where to repent, Acts 17: 30 (2 Ne. 9: 23; 3 Ne. 11: 31-40; D&C 133: 16). Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation, 2 Cor. 7: 10. The Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent has wrought a mighty change in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, Mosiah 5: 2. If he confess his sins and repent, him shall ye forgive, Mosiah 26: 29. After Alma’s preaching, many people began to repent, Alma 14: 1. Do not procrastinate the day of your repentance, Alma 34: 33. Alma taught Helaman of his repentance and conversion, Alma 36 (Mosiah 27: 8-32). Repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, Alma 42: 16. Let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance, Alma 42: 29. Ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit, 3 Ne. 9: 20. Whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, 3 Ne. 9: 22. Repent, all ye ends of the earth, 3 Ne. 27: 20. As oft as they repented, they were forgiven, Moro. 6: 8. Say nothing but repentance unto this generation, D&C 6: 9 (D&C 11: 9). How great is his joy in the soul that repenteth! D&C 18: 13. Every man must repent or suffer, D&C 19: 4. He that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out, D&C 42: 28. He who confesses and forsakes his sins is forgiven, D&C 58: 42-43. The dead who repent will be redeemed, D&C 138: 58. We believe in repentance, A of F 1: 4.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For me when I sin, I am truly sorrowful before the Lord. I'm sorrowful because I've done something contrary to the will of God. This is merely personal... but, I can actually imagine that Christ's pain in the atonement was somehow worsened because of me. Because I love Jesus (not because I want to earn salvation) I don't want to sin. I love Jesus with all of my heart, more than my wife, more than my kids, I love Jesus. I have surrendered my life to him and to his service. Am I perfect? Hardly, but my love for him is perfect.

Of course there are conditions to forgiveness. And they are in the NT.

Matthew 6:12-15 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.


Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:


Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To be forgiven, we must be forgiving of others.

The rest of the bible explains the repentence and forgiveness like this.

Ezra 10:11 states that we should make a confession unto the Lord (directly, not through a priest)

Ezekiel 18:30 states that we should turn away from our transgressions

Peter commands men to repent and be baptized in Acts 2:37-38
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Acts 17:30 all men everywhere are commanded to repent </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And the times of this ignorance• God winked• at; but now commandeth• all men every where to repent:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2 Corinthians 7:9-10 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.


2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's okay to be sorrowful when we've sinned, because godly sorrow will bring us to repentence.

Just so I'm clear and for future reference, can you please tell me something about what you believe? Please answer Yes or No to the following. If a person is saved and then they sin, must they repent? If a person is saved does it matter what they do? If a person is saved can they be immoral, murder, or steal with impunity because they are saved?

forgiveness is ongoing and must be asked for...we are to examine ourselves specifically before communion and ask for forgiveness before paRTAKINg. so yes we must repent.we dont have to say 14 hail mary's and pentance and the rosasy etc... that is getting awfully close to works.IMHO. a saved person will sin, even unwillingly...paul says we do what the flesh does even though we desire what the spirit wills. so yes we will sin. a saved can be immorals, murder, steal or any other sin, because ultimately the flesh is our nature.
this is my opinion, scripturally based.
naB (DARN caps)

i think the next page resolution and screen width will correct itself if no one does an exrtended line in any posts suchas the " hahahahahahahahahhahahahahah above.

So it was my fault? I'd fix it if I could.

Just so I'm clear nab, If a saved person is immoral, murders, steals etc. they do have to ask God for forgiveness right?

Otherwise I agree with you. I don't believe acts of contrition as the Catholics call them have any redemptive power whatsoever and yes, that would qualify as doing a work to recieve a reward. By the same token, asking for forgiveness is a task that we must do in order to be forgiven.

What then is the definition of a work someone does to attain salvation? We all do works, we all consider them important in some way. Where's the line where the works become inappropriate?

IF ONE commits sin forgiveness must be asked...yes.it is received upon repentance.
no works are necessary for salvation. works here provide rewards in heaven...

nabster was right about the extended hahah - you have to put a space in those extra long words. Your post was edited so the topic could be readable

any extended hahahas will be met wit strict discipline in the future....noodles lashing against thy buttocks and endless mandatory listening to weird al yankovik

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">diet of only prunes and pine needles.....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not sure on this, but hopefully such a diet is against the Word of Wisdom. OUCH!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IF ONE commits sin forgiveness must be asked...yes.it is received upon repentance.
no works are necessary for salvation. works here provide rewards in heaven...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Another question just for clarity. I'm assuming that if your asking for forgiveness, you have to actually be sincere, right? You know, you'll actually want to stop doing what it is that you considered a sin worthy of repentence, right?

quote:
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but if it were impossible for the Bible to contain errors, then why did John in Revelation and Moses in Deuteronomy warn those who might want to change it? If it can't be changed isn't that warning superfluous and then an error in and of itself?
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Kind of Like Joe smith translating the bible into his "own revelations"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Kind of Like Joe smith translating the bible into his "own revelations"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not entirely sure I know what you're talking about. If you are talking about the Joseph Smith Inspired Translation of the Bible, then one would have to prove that his translation wasn't valid - generally speaking when it is compared to the oldest manuscripts, it's pretty darn close. If you are referring to the Book of Mormon, then I'm not sure that really matters, because the Book of Mormon is not an appendage of the Bible. It is a separate book.

The warnings in the Bible warn not only about "adding to" which is what most accuse the Mormons of having done with the Book of Mormon, but the warnings also warn against "taking away" from the Bible. Mormons clearly haven't taken anything out of the Bible.

John and Moses, clearly thought there was a risk that what they had written would be tampered with. So they wrote that warning.

If it was impossible for the Bible to be tampered with, then those warnings are unnecessary and superfluous.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
I'm not entirely sure I know what you're talking about.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">of course

Still not sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know how it got so wide, I suspect Allen did something so we wouldn't take up so much space.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ya Allen smartin up! LOL

I saw yesterday how you tried to fix it Joel, that was pretty funny! I laughed! It seems perhaps Allen fixed up the error and has now deleted your funny posts and fixed your very looonnnggg word. Too funny! You brightened my day.

Joel, I think you are not understanding at all what we are saying. Not your fault, let me see if I can explain what we believe and then you can ask questions. Your questions come from your knowledge of LDS theology on forgiveness and our theology is entirely different. So let me try and explain that a little better and them maybe you might see what we are saying. I think it would be better to take this one one step at a time. We are covering too much at once and it becomes confusing because we have very different beliefs.


You look to Christ as:

1) giving you the free gift of bodily ressurection
2) Paying the debt of sin to God which gives you the opportunity to gain eternal life in the kingdom of heaven by your works and repentance.
Jesus was your creditor.

Is this correct?

Not entirely.

I see that the debt for sin has been paid, it is a gift but I must unwrap it, by exercising faith in Christ.

My faith in Christ, if it is real faith and not merely professed faith, will naturally lead me into repentence.

I'm pretty sure we're required to ask for forgiveness and required to forgive others in order to recieve it. Nabster has actually covered it beautifully elsewhere.

Because forgiveness is a broad topic and apparently you disagree with both me (a Mormon) and nabster (most definitely not a Mormon), I think it's better discussed over in the "What get's you to Heaven" thread.