Since you won't take a Mormon's word for it on Ed Decker. I give you "the National Conference of Christians and Jews" opinion on his movie the Godmakers. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The film does not - in our opinion - fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon history, or Mormon belief. It makes extensive use of 'half-truth', faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith.
We find particularly offensive the emphasis in the film that Mormonism is some sort of subversive plot - a danger to the community, a threat to the institution of marriage, and is destructive to the mental health of teenagers. All of our experience with our Mormon neighbors provides eloquent refutation of these charges.

We are of the opinion that The Godmakers relies heavily on appeals to fear, prejudice and other less worthy human emotions. We believe that continued use of this film poses geniune danger to the climate of good will and harmony which currently exists between Valley neighbors of differing faiths. It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.

We believe that most fair-minded people who would happen to view this film would be appalled by it, because their attitudes have been previously formed through many day-to-day experiences with Mormons which demonstrate that they are good friends, neighbors and fellow citizens.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Once again, that came from a Christian and Jewish interfaith organization. Not from Mormons, not from me, not from eric, and not from Matthew.

Rhonda M Abrams, a Regional Director for The Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith also made a statement condeming The Godmakers film. She is also not a Mormon and yet discredits Ed Decker's work </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have now seen "The Godmakers" quite a number of times, and I thought you would be interested in my professional reaction to it.
First of all, I was impressed by the high production values of the show. Clearly, this is not the work either of amateurs or those with very limited resources. The film obviously cost a lot of money to produce and, with the exception of the animated sequence (which looks as if it were made by another source and inserted) used the talents of a fairly sophisticated film-maker.

The use of a documentary format with a factual tone is a clever ploy to convey a high degree of believability to what is in fact an anti-Mormon work. I am fearful that many of those viewing "The Godmakers," especially those who are unfamiliar with the tenets of the Church of Latter Day Saints, will come away believing much of what they see.

Those who view it carefully, however, can see just how invidious and defamatory "The Godmakers" is.

First, the producers invoke one of the largest-standing canards of religious defamation - that one religion (or its adherents) control a disproportionate share of our nation's resources. This base charge, at bottom, implies that there are those who are not entitled to participate fully in our society and that inevitably such ownership will be used for evil ends.

Particularly invidious about "THE GODMAKERS" is its selection of a very few isolated cases, which may or may not be factual, and the implication that the characteristics of those cases are true throughout the LDS religion. We all know that there are unhappy and discontent people in every religion, and even if these cases are true, they say nothing about the Church or Mormons as a whole.

Moreover, the film repeatedly refers to the LDS Church as a cult, yet these individuals cases show people who have freely and knowingly joined the Church and just as freely chose to leave--hardly the mark of a cult.

Finally, the film makers jest of the religious beliefs and history of the Church. It is the nature of faith, however, that the beliefs of adherents seem ridiculous to those without faith. A non-believer could as easily, and as disrespectfully, ridicule the parting of the Red Sea, or the resurrection of Jesus. "The Godmakers" attempt to ridicule Mormon beliefs in this fashioni clearly indicates the malevolent intent of the producers.

Had a similar movie been made with either Judaism or Catholicism as its target, it would be immediately denounced for the scurrilous peice that it is. I sincerely hope that people of all faiths will similarly repudiate "The Godmakers" as defamatory and untrue, and recognize it for what it truly represents - a challenge to the religious liberty of all.

I hope you share my analysis with all those interested in "The Godmakers" and you should feel free to copy this letter and circulate it as you choose.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In your defense of Ed Decker above you stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ed Decker also said that just like you guys are doing he has had many mormons get totally upset because he is revieling there secrets and the fact that every mormon here does just that makes me belive Ed even more</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not upset he's revealing secrets. I'm upset that he's missed his true calling in life as a fiction novelist. As you can see from the above two quotes, it's not just Mormons who claim Ed Decker uses deception and lies to attempt to discredit Mormonism, it's non-Mormons who've taken the time to really look into what this guy is doing who say that as well.

Ed Decker is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. He's proven he's not trustworthy to more than just the Mormon people. It's quite telling actually that most anti-Mormons have even tried to distance themselves from him and his methods, because they just find him too sleazy.

I understand Joel that you still dont like Ed Decker but can you prove to me that this stuff actually came from these people like when i posted ed's web site ...and even if you can brother I dont let every thing that has to do with My religion influence ....like allen said ...its a bout relationship...not rules...i mean there are things that pastors who guest speak at my church say and i just flat out dont agree with him....but its ok because i dont let my religion determine my walk with God ...I let my relationship determine my walk with God...and when you get down to it thats all its really about

love

God Makers came out during the early 80's and this response to it came out shortly afterward. The NCCJ does not have a website that I could find yet I found the quotes I submitted here.

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/nccj.htm

As far as other evidence discrediting Decker here's what I pointed to on page 7 of this thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is a great website documenting Ed Decker’s sordid history called The Truth about Ed Decker if you are interested. It’s kind of a lot of info but it is truly fascinating. It also includes information on the 8th or 9th page about The Tanners as well as other prominent anti-Mormon critics. On the 9th or 10th page I believe there is a list of “honest” anti-Mormon critics who are given to using misleading tactics or full-blown lies. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
from http://www.lightplanet.com/response/nccj.htm
This committee was made up of:

3 Roman Catholics
1 Methodist
2 Presbyterians
1 Disciples of Christ
7 Jews
1 Greek Orthodox
2 Mormons (Not Robert Brown, Rosemary Brown or Gilbert Scharffs) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">none of which are My denomination...and like i said bro...the only reason i would have ever even considered looking at it is because my youth pastor recomended it..... but any way back to the things said about Ed Decker...I am sure people will say things to hurt his ministry ...after all did not the people laugh, beat, critisize, and lust for the death of our lord and savior Jesus Christ....did not people say he was lieng and even asked him to prove that he wasnt by getting himself off the cross ....and just because he didnt get off the cross doesnt mean that he wasnt who he said he was...its because he was staying in God's will...see where i am coming from Brother...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Originally posted by Joel33:
The truth about Ed Decker if you are interested. It’s kind of a lot of info but it is truly fascinating. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel I have seen evidence that scientist have pointed out and that many people believe that we desended from monkeys...but you dont believe that now do you....lol...(just incase you do)
then i also know that how scientist have proved how God doesnt exist (scientificly) (thats also why we have to walk in faith)...But I know you dont believe that so although interesting I just dont believe it ...because of faith i guess..

Dead on the Money NE20.

I would hope that no one who has read anything I've said or linked to or posted to would take it at face value as true. You asked for a link, I gave it to you, just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true - kinda like Ed Decker's stuff.

I would similarly hope that you wouldn't take what your pastor, friends or family say at face value either. After all they are not the source of all truth. I'm certain they love you and want the best for you, but they are not all-knowing.

There is only one source to turn to in order to find out the truth of all things. Go to that source. God is the only one (that I know of) who is all-knowing.

When I wanted to know if the LDS church was the Lord's true church, I read the Book of Mormon and then I prayed and asked God if it was true. I got an answer - plain and simple. All this other stuff is secondary to that answer I got.

When it comes to salvation, it's important not to simply be lead blindly down a path that seems most likely - Read the Book (honestly and without bias) pray and ask God if it is true - then go from there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:


I would hope that no one who has read anything I've said or linked to or posted to would take it at face value as true. You asked for a link, I gave it to you, just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true - kinda like Ed Decker's stuff.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL>>> Brother I so knew that you were gunna use that against me...lol...oh well i guess you gotta fight fire with fire....and i am really rather enjoying conversation with you today Joel...For some reason i am just soaking in the presence of God and your responses have been awsome ...and i am just not getting hot headed today...... ... Praise God...lol

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I would similarly hope that you wouldn't take what your pastor, friends or family say at face value either. After all they are not the source of all truth. I'm certain they love you and want the best for you, but they are not all-knowing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yes and i totally agree with you Joel... lol...trust me i still have a lil rebellion in me that says they dont know everything...lol... but back to the fighting fire with fire thing.....you cant honestly tell me that you or your prophet are all knowing either... I will be honest with you brother sometimes I am asking my youth pastor a question about our religion and he says "juss... a wise man once told me that the smartest answer would simply be ....I don't know" he says " There is only one, who knows all and thats God.... somethings we cant explain...Just because God made everything doesnt mean we need to know how it works or how it became or anything else because we are not God." which shows me that he is agreeing that he is not all knowing either..
but i think you would agree brother that what he says is pretty well put....wouldnt you??

With one little caveat. God does want us to know the truth. He does want us to know as much as possible about the life and mission of his Son Jesus Christ.

Never intended to indicate that I or the LDS Prophet is all-knowing.

You left out this quote from me </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When I wanted to know if the LDS church was the Lord's true church, I read the Book of Mormon and then I prayed and asked God if it was true. I got an answer - plain and simple. All this other stuff is secondary to that answer I got. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't ask my prophet, my dad, my mom, my brothers or sister, my aunts or uncles, or any of my cousins. I read the Book of Mormon and asked God if it was true. He told me it was. Who am I to argue.

If you really are at all curious about it, you too should read the Book of Mormon, with an open heart and mind, and then ponder over its message. Finally, kneel down in prayer and ask God through his Son Jesus Christ if it is true. He will answer you by the power of the Holy Ghost.

i see your point Joel about not asking any one but God ....but i am pretty much grounded in my faith though and there are things that you have posted here about the Mormon religion that i guess either i dont want to or just cant believe but its all good you know ....i can honestly say that i respect you for standing firm in your religion....but i ask that you respect me for doing the same.....and like I said earlier i dont know what will come up next in this thread but i am surely eager to read and debate some more....

love

well again i guess i can start it off but ...tell me about yourself... what do you do for a living Joel....and exactly what is your position in the LDS church.... do you have a family...kids ...wife ...ect.

Joel...this is not directed at you but is made in reply to your quote above. It does apply to my current stitch in life but the similarities seemed a little close.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When I wanted to know if the LDS church was the Lord's true church, I read the Book of Mormon and then I prayed and asked God if it was true. I got an answer - plain and simple. All this other stuff is secondary to that answer I got. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">According to my former wife;

I wanted to know if God really wanted me to divorce you. I read the Bible and prayed and asked God if it was true. I got an answer - plain and simple. All this other stuff is secondary to the answer that I got.

Perception is reality for many. What they choose to believe they do. Then they begin to weave and manipulate things to get their desired results or beliefs.

I am not saying that this is what you or your Church has done as I have not dug in deep enough to express an opinion.

thats what i was trying to say but couldnt put it quite as nice and...i just didnt want to rub yuh the wrong way bro

love

I work at a bank in Pittsburgh and I'm considering going back to school to become an attorney.

I have three kids two boys and a girl

My wife is convert to the LDS church - some missionaries knocked on her door while she was in college and I met her a couple years after she had become a Mormon. Really, she's a far better person than I am, which is quite nice since I was lucky enough to marry her.

As far as what I do in the church - since we don't have professional clergy we are all called on to do various things at various times. At the present time I'm what you'd call a "second counselor in the bishopric." Each congregation in our church is presided over by a Bishop and he selects to men to serve as his counselors. My responsibilities as his counselor are to oversee the youth programs for ages 12-18 and the Sunday School program (everyone from 12 and up). The other counselor oversees the Primary (Sunday School for children under 12) and the finances. I guess I got lucky with my responsibilities because I quite enjoy it. It's also nice that my wife works with the young women's program (girls ages 12-18) so I get to work closely with her.

In the past, I've done a bit of everything. I've worked directly with the Young Men (12-18), I've been in what we call an Elder's quorum (working with men who hold the Priesthood office of an Elder), I've been in another Bishopric presiding over a congregation of single students, I've taught Sunday School at several different levels including a short stint going out to the Utah State Prison each weekend to teach Sunday School and run a religious library, I've been a temple worker (volunteer work to help run things in our temples), and I went on a two year mission for the church when I was 19 and was fortunate enough to be called to serve in Norway. Good times.

In our church the Bishop and his counselors don't do much of the preaching. Each and every member of the congregation is given an opportunity to speak. The members of the bishopric in our congregation take turns planning our worship services. A typical sunday meeting will have some hymns, the sacrament (communion/Lord's supper - whatever you call it), and three or four speakers, generally at least one of the speakers will be selected from amongst the youth.

I gave my first talk in Primary when I was about 5 years old - it was about Moses and how he parted the Red Sea (I'll never forget it). My son (almost 4) just recently gave his first talk in Primary. The first time I spoke in our general worship service I was 12 and I have given the opportunity to speak at least twice a year since then and more often recently. It's nice because I have no qualms about public speaking and most kids who grow up in active participating Mormon families don't.

After the first meeting which lasts about 1 hour and 10 minutes generally, we separate to Sunday School and Primary classes. After about 45 minutes of that we break up into Priesthood (adult men) and Relief Society (adult women) for the adults, and Young Men's and Young Women's, the Primary kids finish up their classes and then go into a big group meeting for all the kids where they get to speak in front of each other and sing songs and whatnot.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but when have I ever been brief?

TH I agree with and note your concern. I can promise you that the experience I had was profoundly overwhelming, deeply personal, and decidedly came from without rather than within.

I guess that's why I've tried to emphasize that when one is seeking the truth they must do so openly, with an open mind and heart, and without bias, casting aside preconcieved notions and beliefs and becoming willing to submit to God regardless of the price or cost . Perhaps, it's even best to plead with God to make you humble enough to accept his will regardless of what you may wish, before you go about seeking his will.

It's a dangerous game to try to sort out what comes from God and what comes from within, but for the truly humble, truly contrite and truly honest seeker of truth, the answers come in more clearly.

As a missionary, this is all I ever asked of people - read then pray, if you get an answer, either way, we'll proceed appropriately. If the answer you get is "no", then I'll leave you alone. If the answer is "yes", then they usually wouldn't want to leave us alone. But you would get both answers - obviously, I believe that those who got a no weren't entirely open or they simply weren't ready. Nonetheless, I'd leave them alone.

What do you say to those who get #1 right, but openly reject the rest? If it's truly the truth, then it's an outright rejection of #1 as well, isn't it?

As well, you kinda left out the baptism part, earlier in this thread it sure seemed as if #1 isn't complete without being baptized by mormon clergy... so in essence we don't even get #1 right, yes?

yeah I was wondering about the whole baptism thing ....i didnt really see it on there

Allen, yes and no.

I think that goes back to what kickstarted this thread in the first place with NE20's question about "once saved - always saved?" You are essentially correct in that if you accept Jesus and follow him, you'll do all that he asks including being baptized by proper authority.

There's a scripture in our Doctrine & Covenants that states. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it D&C 123:12 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's kind of like how Steve says there are alot of Mormons who may be saved by accident. He thinks Mormonism is flat out wrong but accepts that some Mormons may be sincere enough in their commitment to and faith in Christ that they will merit salvation.

Mormons kind of think the same thing about everyone else. We think we're right, but that there are many people on the earth who would accept the LDS faith as God's true church if they were able to make that decision based on perfect information. Hence our doctrine of salvation for the dead. If you, Allen, die without having embraced the fullness of the gospel as proclaimed by the Church of Jesus Christ, and yet you love Jesus (which I know you do), you'll be presented an opportunity (along with the others in 1 Peter 3:18-19 and 1 Peter 4:6) to hear the gospel in its fullness, without bias and without being "blinded by the subtle craftiness of men." You know that we perform baptisms by proxy for those who died without entering into the church (known as Baptism for the Dead - and already explained in full in this thread on either page 6 or 7 so please read that before going off on me). So if you accept the gospel in the Spirit World, after you die and before you're resurrected, then you can accept the gospel as well as the baptism by proxy that is performed here on the earth.

You see, we allow for people to fulfill the commandment to get baptized even if they don't know it's imperative to get done in this life.

Why did you guys bring up the baptism again--lol-- now we will never get him quiet--lol

you know we love yuh Joel ..

OK,

So I'm all confused about what the intent of this thread was. Somebody care to bring me up to date.

you mean some one else besides me and crawdog realize that the same discussion has been going on for 2 years ...lol... seriously though TH i wish i could tell yuh....but it makes interesting for debate

To me at least, it seems that this thread was started first of all to see if anybody knew anything about mormons. I think now it is continuing to try and clear up the many misconceptions about mormons, as well as to explain and perhaps to get some people to understand why our beliefs are why they are. Personally, I don't consider it a mere debate, but I must admit, I do enjoy much of it, and I hope it continues. When I come back in two years from Taiwan, I hope to find this wonderful forum still going.